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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:32 PM
Original message
The Unity of Divisiveness
There seems to be a growing trend here of late; those who would divide us – not as Democrats v Republicans, but as Democrats v Democrats – are out in full force, a fact that is troubling to me and, I am sure, to many others.

This concept has been made glaringly apparent by posts that declare, “I will never vote for that man,” or, “I will never vote for that woman.” It is a statement that promotes the idea that we are not one party, but two warring camps whose respective soldiers would rather raise the flag of surrender in the face of a McCain presidency than yield to a candidate who is not their own personal preference.

Some of the reaction I have read here today to Barack Obama’s speech has solidified the abhorrent idea that for many, one’s choice of candidate should and must override any recognition of truths being spoken, or the eloquence of the words delivered to that end, because such recognition is to be perceived as support of one candidate over another.

Where is the pride that should be felt by all Democrats in the fact that one of our own made a speech that could not now, nor ever will be delivered by a Republican? Where is the collective praise that, in a perfect world, would have rallied an entire party – if only for a moment – not behind a particular candidate, but behind the concept that it is we, the Democrats, who are willing to say, unequivocally, that all Americans are equal regardless of race, religious beliefs, or the way in which they choose to worship?

I have read the posts (too many of them) that have tried to use Obama’s exceptionally well-articulated words as yet another wedge to divide one Democrat against the other – based not on the self-evident truths they expressed, but rather based on the fact that they were delivered by one candidate and not the other.

There are some things that should transcend petty bickering, or even valid debate, between those in both camps. There are some things that should unite supporters of both candidates, things that should bring us to a moment where we can all stand together and shout a hearty Amen! because one of our own stepped up to the public podium and stated that decades of racism should not be ignored nor conveniently swept aside, but should be addressed – head-on, without regard to whose sensibilities might be hurt, without regard to whose comfortable little apple-cart might be upset in the process.

Barack Obama’s speech was one of those things. It is truly unfortunate for we, as Democrats, that some of our party, here and elsewhere, feel a need to persist in using every word uttered by the candidate not of their choice as a wedge to be driven between party members, as a weapon to be wielded in an attempt not to conquer the reprehensible policies of the GOP, but to divide a party that should stand firmly behind the same principles, regardless of the fact that they might currently stand behind two different individuals.

As a Democrat, my pride in Obama’s words today is overwhelming. My despair that some of my fellow Democrats would choose to not stand together behind those words – regardless of who they supported yesterday, and who they will continue to support tomorrow – is indicative of the “unity of divisiveness”, a call-to-arms of those who would rather see our party divided to the point of another four-to-eight disastrous years of GOP governance rather than admit that we – despite our current differences – should unite behind one man in one breathtakingly singular moment when he speaks not for one "camp" or the other, but for all of us.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm proud to be your first Rec!
Yes, I understand... and I put a sig line picture in for this reason... we should all be ashamed of ourselves... I'm not any better... I let my temper get control far too often these days...
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metalluk Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Yes, it was a great speech.
I'm wondering if you also had a chance to read Clinton's policy speech, today, on Iraq and the details of her plan to begin withdrawing troops as soon as she took office (which contrasts so sharply with statements made by an Obama advisor to the BBC that Obama might not actually honor his pledge to begin withdrawing troops within 16 months after he is elected president). I'm wondering if you noted the endorsement of Senator Clinton by Rep. Murtha (a staunch oppenent of the war), saying "Her experience and careful consideration of these issues convinced me that she is best qualified to lead our nation and to bring credibility back to the White House."

Or are we, as a nation, so thirsty for stirring rhetoric (advancing lofty ideals but with no specific plans for moving toward those ideals) that we've lost all interest in tangible proposals from candidates?

I very much liked what Barack Obama had to say and there's no denying that Americans need that kind of broad guidance in relation to race issues and addressing the continuing problems of poverty and lack of opportunity in disadvantaged communities all around the country. Yes, he is articulating core Democratic values. But where's the beef, the specifics, the plan of action? I've studied many of the speeches by both candidates as well as their policy statements, on Iraq, the economy, and other key issues. The difference is not merely evident in speeches delivered to the multitudes at rallies. Turn instead to the policy statements of the two campaigns and the difference in substance is just as evident (and more so after taking into account proposals borrowed from others).

Our Democratic candidates provided two great speeches today, one in the style of a minister on a pulpit and the other in the manner of a pragmatic political leader. Isn't this campaign about electing someone to operate the machinery of government so we can move toward solutions for the countless tangible problems confronting the nation, or is it, instead, a campaign to elect some sort of national evangelical minister, motivational speaker, or group psychotherapist specializing in race relationships?

I am proud of the ideals of the Democratic Party but I can't be proud of a Party that puts forward a candidate for the Presidency with far too little significant political or managerial experience and who builds a campaign around vague ideals rather than substance. We've just gone through eight years of born-again Christian leadership and merely substituting a liberal faith-based approach for a conservative faith-based approach is not my idea of the kind of change I can believe in or support.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. As per our exchange last night (?) ...
Edited on Wed Mar-19-08 12:02 AM by NanceGreggs
... you know I respect and appreciate your candor.

However, I cannot get past the constant rhetoric that Hillary's remarks are always touted by her supporters as "something of substance", while Obama's remarks are invariably dismissed as "empty words".

There was no emptiness of words here today. They were of substance, and they were a call to action not only to Democrats, but to all Americans.

Dismissing the other candidate's words, time and again, as being "without substance" does not lessen their more-than-obvious substance - just as the old RW trick of repeating something, over and over and over, doesn't turn it - suddenly and miraculously - into the truth.

With all due respect, if you saw today's speech as being "years of born-again Christian leadership merely substituted with a liberal faith-based approach", you obviously missed the point entirely.

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dbmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
74. Slight correction
"which contrasts so sharply with statements made by an Obama advisor to the BBC that Obama might not actually honor his pledge to begin withdrawing troops within 16 months after he is elected president"

Pretty sure the words were to the effect that they might not be out within the 16 months. That 16 months were perhaps a best case scenario for that end result.
Not that he would not set it in motion within that time.

Making a distinction between the two based on timing on their speeches on issues is a stretch I'd say. They have both made pragmatic speeches on different matters at different times. And broad sweeping ones too.

The fact that one made a pragmatic speech one day while the other made a principled one, does not really back an argument to there being difference in general.

And I would say that I do not see the difference in substance that you indicate, given the speeches and especially the policies outlined on their websites.
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mythyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
77. you took the words out of my mour Juniperx. it is shaming especially in the light of these points
another great discussion by Nance... kicking this
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Beautiful, Nance. I don't understand either; people don't have to
change allegiances, but to diss this speech as another ho-hum one makes no sense to me. Obama certainly spoke to me and I thought to anyone with a mind open enough to listen.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Honestly, I think the few people still not supporting the words behind today's speech...
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 08:37 PM by Bonobo
are not true Dems.

I honestly have seen very few like that here today. Perhaps 10? They may indeed be paid operatives or perhaps they are just mentally unhinged at this point.

They should just be ignored.

Let's not make the mistake about DU that Rev. Wright made about the US. Namely to exaggerate the negatives until the entire picture is distorted.

DU is a good place and almost all Hillary supporters are good, committed Democrats. The ones here that popped up their slimy heads to criticize today's speech are in some other category.

BTW, love you Nance. You are a shining star.
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sorrybushisfromtexas Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. You are always saying...
what I am thinking. I wish I could write it like you do.

Democrat first
Obama supporter 2nd
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nance I have to agree with you...I am dissapointed and
stunned that DU has turned into a cesspoole of hatred and divisiveness.

What people don't realize is that this is a direct results of the Republican divide and hatred syndrome.

I am beginning to think that many people here really don't get how important this election is...it really is the life or Death of America as we know it that's on the line.

The question to the Democratic supporters here is......

DO YOU WANT TO WIN? DO YOU WANT A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT?
DO YOU WANT TO WIN? DO YOU WANT A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT?
DO YOU WANT TO WIN? DO YOU WANT A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT?
DO YOU WANT TO WIN? DO YOU WANT A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT?
DO YOU WANT TO WIN? DO YOU WANT A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT?

DO YOU?



I want to win and if it is one of our Candidates than I will work tirelessly to get him or her elected.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Wow. If you don't like "those people", then maybe you really are in the wrong party
Wow.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. "Those people"?
I don't know if the KKK has a website/message board, but I'm sure if you Google "mindless racist", you'll get some hits that will lead you in the right (RW?) direction.

Oh, and BTW - you never were a "true Democrat", so let's not pretend otherwise, okay?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. "Those people"? You have issues obviously. nt
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Just alerted on this idiot ...
... please do the same, if you think appropriate.

Although I do give him credit for being able to type a post while peering through those little holes in his white sheet.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Done - - the name fits though. nt
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 09:29 PM by babylonsister
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. OMG!
Didn't even look at the name until you mentioned it!

:rofl:
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americanstranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. You're an idiot.
Don't bother voting for a Democrat. I guarantee we won't miss your vote.

- as
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. I don't see Obama as a god...far from it, but I do see a possibility
of empowering ourselves with the help of someone who will lead not berate or "spy" on us for differing views.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. And you're showing what you are really made of and it rhymes with snit!
When are you leaving DU?

2. Who We Are:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. I think you've found yourself on the wrong site and in the wrong party. n/t
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. "those people"?
You will be quite welcome into the arms of McCain.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Thank you for your candor - Welcome to ignore.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That would make a great bumpersticker ...
Perhaps only DUers would "get it", but it speaks volumes nonetheless!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. On what side of the "riots, muggings" were you?








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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. As we speak ...
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ariesgem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
30. Alert. nt
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. Your screen name is apt.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Now *that's* a post.
:toast:

Proud to recommend.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. From one lover of words to another...
Word.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Don't try to smooth-talk me, rucky!
I am NOT voting for Christopher Walken no matter WHAT!

You Walkies just won't accept defeat ever, will you?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. AMEN!
Thank you NanceGreggs! :hug:

:grouphug:

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. Forgot to say, 'Well Said'; with that little distraction below.
:eyes:

:kick: & Recommended
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
23. K&R yet again, Nance.
:applause:
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thevoiceofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
26. Dammit Nance! You made me cry. Stop that now!
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
28. Thanks, Nance. Sensible words
as usual.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
29. You can't read DU forum writing without being aware that this poster
is a major shaft of light coming through the loose boards in the ceiling.

Those shafts of light are coming from somewhere else. That's what really great writing does, and this poster embodies that light.

The best use for that light is to first appreicate that it illuminates the darkness, and then respect it for its sheer utility. We need it to see where we're going and to read and think and be.

Nance, you do this on many nights of the calendar year and we profit from it spiritually and intellectually and socially.

It's sure-footed and right-on and immensely readable. When I look at the number of views your posts get, I ask myself why more Americans can't lend the same level of concentration you lend to ideas, and I think it's sad and anti-intellectual that many don't even try. Many would lack the chops and the range, but at one point, those voters who stood in the precinct lines in the rain to vote for George Bush OWE you their attention and respect.

I resent them for not giving it.

Even as I'm grateful that we have it among us on these boards.

Bravo, as usual, and thank you.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. Oh, my dear friend ...
If I were half the person you inspire me to be, I would be twice the person I am today.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Those view totals on your threads tell you what many of us think, Nance.
Keep 'em comin'!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. Oh, just wait. This is still in the midst of a political campaign.
There are still issues beyond his speech which are paramount to some. Those differences between these candidates are still relevant in this campaign and are still being actively debated as voters are still tasked with choosing between the candidates. To take everything Mr. Obama says in this campaign (or anything else said by others) at face value, without considering his conduct, his record, and his potential to advance the words spoken into action is not the way I'd expect folks to measure their choices in this election.

Certainly you don't expect everyone to drop their skepticism about the totality and intentions of the candidate behind the words spoken in an actively contested primary election? The attitude that we should all line up behind one candidate's (admitted) damage-control speech as a display of 'unity' isn't going to happen, and isn't necessarily some divisive attitude to look at it through the political lens of the campaign. It's the reality of a campaign in which both sides are still actively engaged in exploiting divisions and differences to elevate their own interests. It's a mild hypocrisy to call for unity in a presidential campaign. It's very nature divides, to some extent, before it repairs, in the end.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. I do not for a minute ...
... discount the idea that the campaign wars rage on. And yes, the differences between the candidates are still there, and they are as valid as they are wanting of honest debate.

However, there are some statements which should be rallied behind by all Demcrats - and, in a more perfect world, all Americans.

Obama's speech was being looked to as "damage control". It transcended that, and beautifully and eloquently so, which I applaud.

The fact that everything either candidate says or does is viewed through the political lens of the campaign is sometimes the harsh reality - but it need not always be so. There are some occasions when the political lens should be replaced with the I-am-an-American-citizen lens - and today was, IMHO, such an occasion.

I am not for a minute implying that Hillary supporters should have laid down their arms and accepted Obama as their candidate. I am merely suggesting that he stated truths that should be embraced by all Democrats, regardless of candidate choice, for one moment of truce before we all headed back to supporting our respective candidates.

And truth be told, if Hillary had given this same speech today, I'd be saying exactly the same things I have said in my OP.

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toys4kitty Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. This is what hope looks like
How blessed are we all that we have the ability to witness not only the most non-traditional contest for nominee ever, but to have people so enthusiastic about their candidates? I am truly thanking my higher power that we have had the opportunity to get so fired up and yet to be able to find the common ground that we have seem to have forgotten about.
There has been such inspiration in reading these posts today. Thank you NanceGreggs for being a voice of reason in such a passionate time.
Regardless of who we support or why- we are all living in a moment of change whether we choose to embrace it and run with it or cower in fear from it.

Back to counting my blessings and being thankful for this gift that we have before us.

:thumbsup:
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. yup...i sometimes i`m just sit here stunned by what i read..
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
35. Kick.
With both feet.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
37. K&R
The best thread concerning zombie liberation today!
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
38. Recommend
Big Time.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
42. Nancy, didn't you do a similar post a few days back?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. She's in top form MOST nights.
Hard to find anybody who's earned their keep more than Ms. Greggs.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Not being prescient ...
... I doubt that I would have posted about today's Obama speech before now.

However, if you're talking about my repetitive call to stand together as a party, I realize that I have become a broken record - and proud to be so.

(And now the younger members of our DU family are wondering what the phrase "a broken record" could possibly mean ...)
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I hate to correct a such a talented writer like you, but
you're beginning to sound like a broken MP3.

What is this "record" you speak of?

And BTW, sounding like a broken MP3 when discussing unity is a good thing.

Half of us aren't going to defeat McCain in November.

That's for sure.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #48
60. Nice one. Vinyl is always my first and only choice.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
45. It truly was a singular moment.
A speech that acknowledged our differences and celebrated the possibilities we could create working together.
:applause: to Obama and a huge :yourock: to you, Nance.
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liberaltrucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
47. K&R for truth
I'm sure Miss Molly had some opinions you disagreed with and I don't
always agree with some of yours. Duh, that's why we're Democrats.

At risk of sounding like a broken record, Molly would be proud!

:toast:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Duh! That IS why we're Democrats!
Disagreements or not, may I join you?

:toast:
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liberaltrucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. If your're ever in Alabama
Edited on Tue Mar-18-08 11:55 PM by liberaltrucker
The drinks are on LTwife and me!

:toast:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. You're on!
:toast:
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
53. K&R!
You said it so well....

This is a time to be proud.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
54. That speech reminded me that I should be a better Democrat and a better man
It was truly inspiring. I had tears in my eyes when he told the "I'm here because of Ashley" story. Thank you Nance for reminding me why I am still a Democrat.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
55. i'm sorry, the utter hero-worship of Obama turns me off and really give me a negative attitude towar
toward him. maybe if his supporters would tone it down a little, the rest of wouldn't feel obliged to re-acquaint them with reality.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. You seem to forget ...
... that "hero worship" is not a reality, but simply a creation of those who support the other candidate.

And if you're basing your choice of candidate on how one's "supporters" act as opposed to how the respective candidates comport themselves, you might want to "re-acquaint" yourself with reality.
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liberaltrucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Herding cats
Yep, that's us.

:)
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jonestonesusa Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. Is there hero-worship on this thread?
Edited on Wed Mar-19-08 03:26 PM by jonestonesusa
I challenge the accusation that Obama supporters are doing hero-worship. I did not see any of that on this thread that we have going now. As an Obama supporter myself, I welcome supporters of Clinton to argue their case for her with thoughtfulness and references to her qualifications. But I reject the constant accusations that all or much of Obama's support is hero-worship, and besides, when did charisma becomes such a liability among Democrats? This kind of thinking led straight to Michael Dukakis, Walter Mondale, John Kerry, and Joe Lieberman being on tickets.

The main point of opposition from the perspective of Clinton supporters seems to be experience, and it so happens that I think Obama's variety of experience - organizing among everyday people, knowledge of the Constitution and respect for it, and legislative record in the Illinois legislature as well as the U.S. Senate - is sufficient for me to support him. It is also of interest to me that he is not from a conventional middle-class upbringing - he is from a single parent family, a bi-racial family, a family with international connections. Many people in the United States do not come from conventional nuclear families, and I think it would help to have a presidential candidate who models what a person can accomplish even if they are from a blended or bi-racial family. Also, at one point in his work history, he turned down the possibility of personal material comfort to work on behalf of underprivileged people and got to know one of the most inspirational politicians of the late 20th century - Harold Washington.

While Obama does not have the same amount of experience in the Senate as Clinton, and was not a first lady (or first man), I do not see several of Clinton's votes as a positive on foreign policy, most notably the Iraq War Resolution, but also her vote for more saber-rattling against Iran. I go with Obama's statements that we have to look at judgment as well as experience, and for my taste Clinton is too connected to the blue dog Democratic tendencies to bend when the winds of war are blowing. We need someone, in my opinion, who will bring a new approach to the military-industrial complex and challenge the efforts to build a new American empire at the point of a gun, while siphoning off hard-earned taxpayer dollars to Haliburton, etc. Even with Clinton's belated support for troop withdrawals in Iraq, I'm not convinced that she will stand firmly against the overreliance on military solutions. I also believe that Obama is not a supporter of the counterproductive drug war that is another constant drain on police resources and human potential.

So, while I am inspired by Obama, my support for him is based on much more than hero-worship.
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oldgrowth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
56. Thank you NanceGreggs
:loveya: :pals:
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rambler_american Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
59. K and effing R!
Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.Error: You've already recommended that thread.

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GTurck Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
61. From a long range view..
I was not a hippy but a young working class mother in the 60's, one of the slots or silents, and I have noticed a profound change in how we think we should respond to those who do not think exactly as ourselves.
Because of so many distortions and a really sad lack of historical education few know that in the 60's people of different views did talk to one another without sarcasm, irony or disdain; sometimes even talked with empathy and understanding. That does not seem so true today. I often feel as though anything that anyone disagrees with is to them open to the most disheartening and mean-spirited response. Often it seems unconscious, just something that they saw on television and assumed that that is the way people talk to one another. We must wake up now. Obama gave us a golden opportunity to begin to think and feel without the prejudices and presumptions that are commercially promoted.
Thanks Nancy for another good one.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. The role models right from the top of the "food chain" have set this disgusting example...
There was a time when politicians from opposite sides could be friends and have a rational discourse.
I think it may have started in the Reagan era, but the public discourse, even at the highest levels, has declined to the point that I expect there will be fist-fights in the halls of Congress soon.
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GTurck Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. Well, wouldn't..
the answer be to not be suckered into that game? I don't look to others to set an example. Never have even as a kid. I saw too much that made me know that everyone has feet of clay at times. It is our personal responsibility to be exemplars of our principles not for someone else to set the agenda and we follow. Haven't you noticed how following gets us into more trouble?
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
63. Is there a way to automatically K&R the posts of a DUer. I would certainly have NanceGreggs on my
automatic K&R list....

Another post that should be published and read by everyone who thinks. Pperhaps, it is even more needed by those who do not.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
65. You must be wondering, as I am............
Does waiting for rational thinking and civility to prevail here
have a greater (or lesser) chance of success than waiting for Godot?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Hmmm ...
While we're both waiting ...

Happy Birthday, DFW!!!

:party:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
67. Great post - Obama has earned my respect
I am impressed with him now that he has been pushed of his pedestal and has had to show the stuff he is made of. I now feel like I have more in common with him than I previously thought - I would not have felt this way if this incident had not unfolded the way it did. Obama has revealed much of what I felt was missing up 'till this point. This has been a good week - even if it doesn't seem like it at this point. I have no idea how or why anybody (Dem or otherwise) would be criticizing Obama at this point. Hitting someone while their guard is down is cowardly IMO.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Thanks, HM ...
I was somewhat heartened to see a few posts yesterday from Hillary supporters who said, "Wow! That really was a GREAT speech! But I'm still supporting Hillary."

I do find it very disturbing, however, that some here feel that belittling everything said or done by the candidate who opposes theirs is some form of "support".

I've been an Obama supporter from the beginning - but would never dismiss Hillary's accomplishments or abilities, which are many. And if she had given a speech of this eloquence and impact on behalf of all Democrats and all Americans, I would have lauded her without hesitation.

She is a brilliant woman, and saying that doesn't - and shouldn't - be translated into being disloyal to the man I am supporting in this race.

As I've said many times, we have two more-than-able candidates - and preferring one to the other should NOT be a divisive issue amongst us.

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mhoran Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
70. Thank You!
I smell sanity and solidarity returning to these boards. There will always be a handful of extremist posters, but they are the fringe. Let us not allow them to continue to promote division amongst us. Defeating the repugs remains the endgame.
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
71. A hearty kick and rec!
Good one! United we stand, divided we fall. :thumbsup:
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
72. I watched that speech and knew, in the moment,
that I was watching a historical speech, not unlike some of JFK's and MLK's. It was weird, in the moment, to be watching history in the making. I don't go to GDP anymore, so I don't see the divisiveness of which you speak. I did hear people all over the hospital where I work talking about it in reverential tones. There was no bickering there, though a couple prefaced it by saying, "I'm for Hillary, but did you hear that speech by Obama?" I did hear a pundit on a TV try to spin in, but the spin was so poor, it was laughable and the other pundit with him gently took him back to the fact that this speech changes the dialogue, elegantly and definitively.

Thank you, Nance, for reminding me of why I stay out of GDP (except when I see a post of yours on the front page - I click and then say what I would like to say to you. Then I get out - quickly)

As an aside, before yesterday, I felt fairly liberated in not having a horse in this race. I was quite happy to vote for whomever received the nomination (still will, not willing to allow the alternative), but yesterday, I fell in love again. If Senator Obama receives the nomination, I will actually be out volunteering and fighting for him. I thought I was going to support through more indirect means this go around. I worked in the Kerry campaign office in Seattle in 2004 and was devastated afterwards. Until yesterday, I didn't think I had it in me to do that again. After yesterday, I don't think I have it in me not to do that for Obama.
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
73. As usual, an eloquent voice of reason---Thanks once again
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
75. In whose interest is
'the “unity of divisiveness”, a call-to-arms of those who would rather see our party divided to the point of another four-to-eight disastrous years of GOP governance'?

Republicans encourage this, with the MSM. NONE of us should either encourage it or state it, ever.

Let us stop, please.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-19-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
76. Here's a kick for the late hour.
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-20-08 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
78. Nance..
great post, you just made me cry all over again. I was blown away by Sen. Obama's speech, that that took a lot of courage. He didn't have to do it, he did it for us. He did it for all Americans. I imagine he saw what alot of us saw, that this type of stuff, had the potential to not only divide the Democratic party further, but to divide Americans. We have came so far in this country, and it hurts me that the media is pushing this story. I felt like we were going back 50 years in time. I am proud to support Sen. Obama for taking on this issue in the face of diversity. He didn't care if it sent his campaign for the Presidency down the tubes, the American people are, and were more important to him.

I love him dearly!
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