Michigan and Florida Democratic voters lets face it.

[bearfan454]

The votes from these two states are probably not going to count. These two states broke the rules. I agree that if I lived there I would want my vote to count also, but the rules are the rules. Changing the rules to get the outcome you want is what the other side does, not us.

[QC]

1. "the rules are the rules"

That's what we were hearing out of the Republicans in 2000, back when they were throwing out every ballot that was not completely punched, even when it was perfectly clear what was the voter's intention.

Let's be honest: if Obama had won Florida and Michigan, he and his cheerleaders here would be insisting on the absolute importance of counting every vote, and Hillary and her people would be talking about the rules. This is politics, pure and simple, and every politician does whatever will give him or her the advantage.

[bearfan454]

7. It does suck that the delegates aren't going to be seated

I would be pissed if I lived in one of those two states also.

[QC]

10. A lot of us are pissed.

I think we can count on losing Florida and Michigan in November. Imagine how easy we have made it for the Republicans--"They didn't want your vote in January, so why give it to them now?"

[stahbrett]

27. But MI and FL will have delegates - so your imagining is for naught

Seriously, how likely do you think it is for MI and FL to not have delegates at the convention? Pretty close to zero. They WILL have delegates. The key is that, because their state leaders screwed up, they will not play a determining factor in selecting the nominee. However, once there is a presumptive nominee, a plan will be struck to seat the delegates - if they implement the same penalty the Republicans had (50% loss of delegates) then what exactly could McCain say negative about that? Nothing. This whole thing, in other words, will be a non-issue.

[tulsakatz]

23. that's why the rules are agreed to BEFORE.......

the election and not After the election has begun!!

[JVS]

47. AMEN!

Someone who gets the fucking point! At last!

[durrrty libby]

2. NH and SC broke the "rules" too. Were they "punished"?

[quantass]

3. Please explain (i never heard this)

[Exilednight]

5. How did NH and SC break the rules?

[Tammie]

13. Both states moved up their primary dates.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/08/sc.gop.primary/index.html

But I don't believe they broke any DNC rules.

[tekisui]

45. They did not break the rules, it was agreed to that they would be allowed to move.

[Tarc]

4. If these two states are ignored completely, then the Democratic nominee loses both in a G.E.

and the G.E. itself; it is that simple.

Michigan's revote plan looks solid so far and is almost ready to go. Florida's dead in the water, but there are still plans being floated to count 1/2 or something similar, as the GOP did.

[CTyankee]

24. I just don't see that Democrats in Michigan and Florida won't vote

for the Democrat in the GE just because they weren't seated at the convention. The party brought it upon themselves by moving up their primaries. But the Democratic voters presumably supported one of the candidates back then. Either Hillary or Obama. So since either Hillary or Obama will be our party's nominee, I don't see why the voters in those two states who formerly supported one of the two would turn away from then in the GE. Sorry, I don't get the logic here...

[Terran]

29. I agree with you

This idea that all MI and FL residents will jettison the Democrat Party just because of this mess is ludicrous. Most Dems are smart enough to see that having a Dem win the GE is a more important principle than having their primary votes counted.

[scheming daemons]

31. Faulty logic. Because their votes in January don't count means they won't vote in Nov.....

...when they DO count?



Fails the logic test.

[tekisui]

46. That spin is getting old.

1-MI and FL are not required for a GE win.

2-It's insulting to the majority of the Democratic voters in MI and FL to think that they would facilitate a McCain Presidency because they were upset about the Primary.

[durrrty libby]

6. "lets face it " not counting citizens votes is unconstitutional

[Exilednight]

8. If you're talking about the primaries, then your understanding of the Constitution is flawed.

[Independent-Voter]

9. Perhaps you need to read the Constitution if you think that

How party's pick their candidates isn't mentioned anywhere in that fine document. The citizens of both those states should have been aware of what their fucking elected officials were voting on a year ago when this issue was going through process.

[bearfan454]

12. You're right. It is unconstitutional.

That's why the primaries should not have been moved up in violation of DNC Party rules. The votes would have been counted if Michigan and Florida hadn't decided to ignore the Democratic National Committee rules. They did it to themselves.

[durrrty libby]

18. "They" The voters?

You disenfranchisers are funny as hell:rofl:

[bearfan454]

21. No not the voters but Mrs Thurmann in Florida is the head of the Democrats

in Florida and she submitted the bill the the Florida legislature to get this whole thing going.

[demo dutch]

35. By trying to be clever they got screwed by the FL GOP as the GOP cleverly

attached the verifiable papertrail for voting machines vs. Touchscreen with no papertrail to the primary bill. This was somehting the FL dems had been fighting for since the 2000 election so they had no choice but to support the bill. It happens everytime in FL the stupid FL Dem party gets outsmarted by the FL GOP.

Meanwhile the Florida voter has had no say in any of it and gets screwed again by the politicians!

[Leopolds Ghost]

39. Wrong! Parties aren't even RECOGNIZED as legitimate by the Founding Fathers.

This whole notion of the Democratic vs. Republican "ticket" that we then get to vote on is an extra-constitutional alien imposition upon our system of government. People who buy into it without recognizing how our government is actually supoposed to work are misinformed.

[demo dutch]

41. You're actually right on that one!

[Mezzo]

11. South Carolina broke those rules too

and Florida has a GOP legislature that forced their primary early. That didn't stop BO from campaigning there the day after he signed a pledge not to.

[Exilednight]

15. SC did not break the rules, they lobbied the DNC before moving their date.

[BlooInBloo]

17. Really - the GOP told *Democrats* when to vote? Really? Really?

DUers slay me.

[bearfan454]

22. The Florida republican legislature did pass a bill that told Democrats

when to vote, yes. The bill was submitted by the head of the Democrats in Florida, Mrs Thurmann.

[stahbrett]

28. Please list all of the state Democrats who voted against moving the election up (nt)

[demo dutch]

36. They couldn't vote no because they got screwed by a clever FL GOP who

attached the verifiable papertrail for voting machines (vs touchscreen with no papertrail) to the bill. This was something they had fought for since the 2000 election, so the Dems had no choice but to support the bill. They tried to file an amendment to stop the date change which was overturned by the GOP. So by trying to be clever they found themselves outsmarted by the GOP. Something that happens consistantly to the FL Dems.

Meanwhile the FL voters have had no say in any of it and get fucked over by the politicans again!

[stahbrett]

38. You are wrong - the Democrats did not fight it

Check this out, from August 25, 2007:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2007/08/kiss-democratic.html

[demo dutch]

40. You're wrong! amendment to Housebill 537 to move back to Feb 5 was greeted with laughter by GOP

http://www.wesh.com/news/15622674/detail.html

You can listen to the whole sorry mess at this link
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/18/1474/83180/121/478896

You will hear Dem Minority Leader Dan Gelber and Dem Leader Pro Tempore Joyce Cusack offer an amendment to set the primary date to Feb. 5. The amendment failed by voice vote with no debate.

Florida House bill 537
http://www.flsenate.gov/session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&Submenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&Billnum=0537&Year=2007

S960 was originally a separate general elections bill containing the paper trail provision and the Election and Ethics committee (5 R and 3 D's on committee) voted to combined the two. Dems voted on combining the two bills (they claim because they felt it was their only chance to pass the papertrail issue) and the damage was done. Daily Koss has his own interpretation on that.

Like I said they they're a bunch of losers and were outsmarted by the GOP, something that happens frequently!
Meanwhile, FL voters had no say in any of this and are getting screwed once again by the politicians.

[stahbrett]

42. Your own link shows how you're wrong

"Geller and Wilson request no debate on the amendment and it fails on a voice vote. Geller doesn't seem too upset that Senate Repubs are "laughing derisively"; in fact, he has a few chuckles himself. He's heard to comment something to the effect of the only purpose of his and Wilson's amendment is to show the DNC the Dems tried to stop the primary date from being set early."

[demo dutch]

43. Like I said they're a bunch of losers and the FL voters are paying the price. Do you not read?????

That's Kos' interpretation, there are others you see it diferently, but the end result is the same.

[stahbrett]

48. FL voters have idiots for political leaders - join the club!

:D

Seriously though, the voters aren't going to pay a price unless the state had gone along with a re-vote paid for at taxpayer expense. Florida and Michigan delegates will be seated at the convention, so no one is "paying the price".

[Obamanaut]

20. Fla does have a GOP majority in the state legislature, but

the bill passed through with only a token "nay" vote. That's why I'm suggesting to everyone I know that we should limit the terms of the incumbents to the current one by voting them out as they come up for reelection.

[stahbrett]

14. Michigan and Florida WILL have delegates for the convention

Once Hillary concedes the nomination, the DNC and Obama's camp will figure out a way for MI and FL to have delegates seated. One way is to penalize them less severely, maybe by doing something like the Republicans did - penalize them half their delegates (or make each delegate worth 50%).

Then the whining and moaning over this will thankfully go away...

[davidpdx]

26. I agree, after the nomination is settled most likely

Florida and Michigan will be represented at the convention. However, they won't decide the nomination (with the exception being if Michigan does a revote).

If I had to guess, the two possiblities for Florida would be: 1) penalize half the amount of the delegates and then seat them according to the % of the vote. 2) Seat the entire delegates and split it 50/50. I conceed that the first one is more likely then the second.

For Michigan, I guess it depends whether or not they have a revote. If they didn't: 1) The same as above for #1 and assign Obama the uncommitted vote. 2) Seat the entire delegation and split it 50/50. Again, I think the first one is more likely.

[BeyondGeography]

16. Like it or not, the DNC has to worry about setting a precedent here

If MI and/or FL get the re-vote and all the attention that comes with it, what's to prevent states from jumping the line and creating the same mess in the future? They can always point to 2008 and say, see, they'll have to do it our way eventually anyway.

It's a fucked up situation but caving into the do-over crowd is a recipe for total chaos in the future. The DNC has to demonstrate an ability to make its position stick or it becomes meaningless.

[bearfan454]

19. "The DNC has to demonstrate an ability to make its position stick or it becomes meaningless"

Damn straight.

[durrrty libby]

34. Americans promoting disenfranchisement of voters look like buffoons

and I'm sure dictators like Fidel Castro would love to have you live in his country

[bearfan454]

25. This says it all for Florida

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/features/story.asp?id=12242


..."In May 2007, Florida Gov. Charlie Crist signed a law that moved up Florida’s primary date. It’s true that he’s a Republican, and that the state Legislature that crafted the law is GOP-controlled. But the bill had Democratic support; it passed the state House unanimously, and had only two nay votes in the Senate. The bill also required that future elections include a verifiable paper trial, which gave Democrats a reason to vote for it.

..."The DNC tried to negotiate. According to an e-mail circulated to prominent Democrats in September and forwarded to Orlando Weekly by a lawyer who does work for the party, the national party offered the state party money to pay for an alternate delegate selection program – most likely a caucus or a state convention that would have occurred sometime after Feb. 5. The state party, however, insisted on holding its primary Jan. 29, and all but dared the DNC not to count it. According to media reports, state party leaders wanted to keep the Jan. 29 primary “meaningful” to bring Democrats to the polls to vote down the proposed amendment to lower property taxes. That gambit failed.

Even though state Democratic Party officials like to point fingers at the DNC and its chairman, Howard Dean, for the state’s predicament, the reality is that state leaders knew the consequences of their actions and plunged ahead anyway.


And finally again, a word of truth.


But as of March 17, the state party announced it would no longer seek a second election, and instead hoped the DNC could find a solution. State Democrats played a game of chicken and lost. Now the party is scrambling to find a way to salvage the wreckage, but with each passing day that looks increasingly unlikely.

[durrrty libby]

30. Here's the truth and says it all

Obama: Gaaawwd Daayyyum Florida...Gaaawwd Daayyyum Michigan

[demo dutch]

32. The GOP cleverly attached the verifiable papertrail to the bill, something the FL dems

have been fighting for since 2000, they absolutely could not vote against the papertrail, They got fucked! and the problem here is that the Florida Voters had no say in any of it!! so once again the Florida voters get fucked over by the politicians and the DNC. The irony is they fought to count the vote in 2000 but refuse to count them in 2008

[redqueen]

44. *sigh*

Thanks.

[demo dutch]

33. Ironic isn't! In 2000 the Dems wanted to count all the votes! in 2008 they refuse to! Meanwhile the

Florida voters have no say in any of it and they get fucked again by the politicians.

[suston96]

37. The rules are the rules. I am old enough to remember when the rules kept blacks from voting....

....in many places in the south.

Michigan and Florida Democratic voters? Let's face it: the Democratic Party doesn't need your electoral votes, and doesn't need your Democratic congressional members.

The Democratic Party will prevail without you.