Hillary today-"Dem. nominee may not be legitimate without FL and MI."

[jenmito]

Hillary when she was the "inevitable nominee"-"It's clear this election they're having (in MI) is not going to count for anything."
:eyes: I think what she MEANT was SHE won't be the nominee without FL and MI so now I NEED them to count!

[phrigndumass]

1. When/where did she say that?

I'm interested. Do you have a link?

Thanks.

[bicentennial_baby]

4. it was just reported on MSNBC

[jenmito]

12. Jinx! You owe me a pizza!

:D

[bicentennial_baby]

21. Hehe....

:toast:

[jenmito]

25. ...

:toast: back atcha!

[phrigndumass]

13. Unbelievable flip-flop. This might be the flip-floppiest of them all.

Can't believe it.

:banghead:

[jenmito]

23. Especially when she NOW says it would be un-American not to have those votes count.

:eyes:

[rodeodance]

121. Listen and learn---about democracy. Its a good thing

[jenmito]

134. Listen to your candidate. Wait-don't-or you'll be more confused than you are now.

Which Hillary would you listen to?

[rodeodance]

141. Here is the secret: They are not obsessed with the past. This is NOW. They know who cares.

[jenmito]

152. You're delusional. And so is she.

:rofl:

[rodeodance]

164. He who laughs last laughs best-- you are rolling in laughter now. But the game is not over.

[jenmito]

174. And I'm sure Obama will be laughing last.

[roguevalley]

171. apparently she gets a pass on every dirty thing she does. it must

be nice to be such an entitlement queen.

[jenmito]

175. Yup. If her name wasn't "Clinton" she'd have been WAYYY out by now.

[dchill]

180. She would never have gotten "in"...

not even into the Senate.

[jenmito]

6. It was just reported on MSNBC. n/t

[rox63]

10. October of 2007, I believe

I've seen it quoted on both MSNBC and CNN. But I don't have a link handy. I'll see if I can locate one.

[bicentennial_baby]

2. yeah, I just heard that....

:rofl:

[book_worm]

3. She's like Nixon she speaks out of both sides of her mouth and lies out of both sides.

[EFerrari]

29. She should join the circus. They need contortionists there.

We don't.

[Cha]

31. My son said she's like

bush in a pantsuit.

[truebrit71]

81. ROFL!!!! Smart kid!!!

:rofl:

[Mme. Defarge]

108. Separated at birth -- n/t

[DURHAM D]

5. Why is Obama against suffrage? eom

[scheming daemons]

11. Does Hillary's WORD mean anything? eom

[Cha]

36. Not a thing..you can take hilary's "word"

and 5 cents and you're still left with just 5 cents.

[Tellurian]

87. It's all about RULES!

when you know the RULES. It's easy being on the winning side!

[dionysus]

114. huffing paint thinner is bad.... i mean seriously...

[Tellurian]

129. yes, when will you learn?

it causes ireversable brain damage!

[dionysus]

150. here you go

[EFerrari]

19. Flog it but it's your wasted time. We know better.

[DURHAM D]

34. This is so basic and he is acting so Republican.

Irony of ironies.

[jenmito]

38. It IS basic: "It's clear this election they're having is not going to count for anything."

[DURHAM D]

53. What a stupid point you are flogging.

Back then her comment was a reflection on the mess. No one in their right mind could have thought that the DNC and the Michigan Dems would not figure out a way for Democrats to vote. But Obama doesn't want them to vote - he will look bad. Its the same reason he took his name off the ballot back then (and organized the other Dems to take their names off). He was losing in Michigan and didn't want the embarrassment - he still doesn't.

Obama has become just a common garden variety politician. Win at any cost.

However, this time it is about suffrage. Shame on him.

[jenmito]

71. Can't deal with her flip-flop of necessity? She doesn't care about "democracy." She cares

about herself ONLY. No one in their right mind (at the time) thought Hillary would not win the nomination. THAT'S what changed.

What a pathetic attempt to justify her flip-flop-"this time it's about suffrage." :rofl:

[DURHAM D]

76. Your lack of understanding of a basic American and Democratic principal is sad. n/t

[jenmito]

78. Um, then so is Hillary's since she agreed with my understanding...until she lost her lead.

:rofl:

[DURHAM D]

84. Even you surely must know you are working off a flawed premise. eom

[rodeodance]

90. no, she does not as she has been slaming her crap for weeks now.

[DURHAM D]

98. I understand exuberance but there really is a limit. eom

[rodeodance]

105. not for this poster

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

145. "idiots"--Personal attacks and name-calling is not allowed.

[dionysus]

151. but the statement is 100% factual. go along and cry to the mods now

:eyes:

[musicblind]

183. hmm. dunno. looks ilke it worked. the post got deleted.

people shouldn't break the rules as many Obama supporters have been so quick to say.

[jenmito]

155. Then go "tell" on me. I'll show the mods all the insults and name-calling you've done to me.

[truebrit71]

82. "Win at any cost." Project much? That is EXACTLY the HRC mantra...

...glad to see you like the flavour of that Klinton Koolaid...:eyes;

[redqueen]

In August, she signed the pledge which explicitly stated those states delegates would be stripped.

So how can you claim that she could have expected any other outcome at the time that she made that quip about the states not counting?

[MonkeyFunk]

147. Where in the pledge did it say that?

"THEREFORE, I _______________, Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as “campaigning” is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC."

[redqueen]

148. In the part left out of your quote, natch.

"“Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... "

http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

[MonkeyFunk]

161. That's entirely made up

I don't know where the editorial writer got that.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070831_Final_Pledge.pdf

[redqueen]

163. Wow... that'd be pretty bold, to just make stuff up.

I'd be very interested to see the copy you linked to... but the link is broken.

[MonkeyFunk]

165. The link works fine for me

it's a .pdf


Here's another link:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/1/111456/9928


Any google search for "text of four state pledge" shows the pledge, and it doesn't contain what the Stanford Daily said it did.

Good lord, if it DID say that, why would there be so much argument here?

[redqueen]

167. Actually I did find this in a google search

for the text you suggested (thanks for that).

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/9/201240/0802

In the OP, the person posts the same text you have... further down, I found this:

Missing Info from Original article (5.00 / 1) (#58)
by scoopenator on Mon Mar 10, 2008 at 08:13:09 AM EST

You seem to have forgotten this part in your copy and paste. Your portion was the letter posted on Iowas site. The Florida letter also contains the following:
Four State Pledge Letter 2008
Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina
August 28, 2007

WHEREAS, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, along with approval from the full body of the DNC, established the 2008 Presidential nominating calendar in 2005.

WHEREAS, the nominating calendar increases diversity with the early participation of African Americans, Hispanics, Asian Americans, Native Americans and labor members.

WHEREAS, the nominating calendar honors the traditional role of retail politics early in the nominating process.

WHEREAS, the nominating calendar provides geographical balance with contests in the Heartland, East, South and West.

WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar.

WHEREAS, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar.

THEREFORE, I ____ _, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules, pledge to actively campaign in the pre-approved early states Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina. I pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window (any date prior to February 5, 2008). Campaigning shall include but is not limited to purchasing media or campaign advocacy of any kind, attending or hosting events of more than 200 people to promote one's candidacy for a preference primary and employing staff in the state in question. It does not include activities specifically related to raising campaign resources such as fundraising events or the hiring of fundraising staff.

--------

No responses to that post...

Now I'm really getting curious.




Apparently there are three versions of this pledge? I can't get this .pdf to load either - maybe that's a problem for my browser... I don't know.

http://www.fladems.com/page/-/documents/THREE_pledge_versions.pdf

[Usrename]

106. Don't worry too much, Michigan will get a chance to caucus.

That's what they did back in 2004 when they pulled this same crap.

We'll see what you and the Clintons have to say about sufferage then, won't we?

[EFerrari]

41. No. Hillary is the one trying to manipulate her way into a nomination

that she couldn't win.

[rodeodance]

26. AND WHO COULD HAVE IMAGINED--his fans are also!

[jenmito]

32. AND WHO COULD HAVE IMAGINED-her fans are for ignoring the rules also!

[rodeodance]

54. The voters know she cares---they also know BO is stepping on them. Who they gonna vote for?

[jenmito]

72. HAHAHAHAHA!!! The voters know she's DESPERATE! Obama wants to follow the rules.

The same rules HILLARY agreed to.

[rodeodance]

101. you know she was in MI yesterday. she had a big crowd. They know she cares.

[redqueen]

104. Have you heard anyone talking about the negative aspect

of her going to MI?

That some Dems wished she wouldn't have, because that combined with her list of donors gave the appearance of impropriety, and if not for that, they might have been more successful in the MI lege?

[jenmito]

140. Yup, she was there showing her desperation. It got negative coverage as her hypocrisy

was pointed out when the media showed her earlier statement. They even said HILLARY supporters thought it was a bad move.

[jenmito]

27. Why is Hillary against following the rules? n/t

[DURHAM D]

39. Are corporate rules more important than suffrage for 10% of our population?

[wileedog]

47. The Democratic Party is a corporation now?

And yes, without rules there IS no vote.

[DURHAM D]

55. Yes it is and the CEO is an Obama supporter. eom

[wileedog]

63. So to Hillary is this

a vast left wing conspiracy?

[DURHAM D]

69. Nothing left wing about Obama - he is too conservative for me. eom

[Rosa Luxemburg]

Ms Hillary, you are not in charge of the Democratic Party!

Howard Dean is the Chair and the party decided.

[rodeodance]

117. Too bad Howard Dean weak-

[wileedog]

7. But they will be clearly legitimate if picked by Superdelegates over the vote

How stupid does she think we are?

[Mme. Defarge]

111. At least she has hope in something -- n/t

[sudopod]

8. Fuck this.

Why won't we bend over and kiss their asses?

This is why.

If McCain's politics of fear defeat Senator Obama, history will know who to blame.

[jenmito]

35. Exactly...

and did you see how much praise BILL Clinton heaped on McCain yesterday?!

[redqueen]

107. I still can't quite believe that Bill LIED to prop up McSame...

against torture? WTF?!

[jenmito]

144. Since when has lying been difficult for Bill?

Not to mention Hillary...

[redqueen]

157. Well yeah lying to cover up affairs... but to prop up GE opponents?

Really?

[jenmito]

158. Yes. He has no shame.

It's obvious.

[blogslut]

9. Does anyone know?

If this whole FL/MI thing has an effect on the electoral college? I mean, both state will still have electoral votes in the GE, right? Or wrong? Does anyone know?

[rox63]

17. This has nothing to do with the GE

It's a Dem party primary thing.

[jenmito]

18. Yes, they will. This is only re: the primary.

[Terran]

24. of course they will

None of this crap has anything remotely to do with the GE.

[blogslut]

44. good

I didn't know. Rendell was making me think it made some sort of difference in the GE.

[EFerrari]

14. Someone get that woman off of the ledge before she hurts someone.

[otohara]

15. OMG

I don't think I can vote for this person.

[BeyondGeography]

16. Just think, only 4.5 more weeks until Pennsylvania

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

61. 33 days, 21 hours, 58 minutes, 11 seconds...

A colossal waste of time.

[rodeodance]

20. You go Hillary. she is showing the voters she cares while BO is dissing as 'not counting"

[crankychatter]

66. dissing?

my don't WE have street creds

[Hepburn]

22. Hi, Jen........

......:hi: How goes it with you?

Thanks for the info....all I can say is: Another day, another load of bullshit from Queen Hillary!

:puke:

[jenmito]

42. Hey, Hepburn!

:hi: It goes better than yesterday according to the polls. :)

Yup, I wish the "party elders" would FORCE her out already!

[Hepburn]

46. Yeah....

...I gotta agree, Jen...things are back on track. And, boy, do I wish the Queen would go the hell home and let us get to the matter of defeaing that POS McCain!

:hi:

[jenmito]

77. Yup...

If she was so sure Obama was going to collaps beyond repair in the polls, she wouldn't be pushing for the vote to count that she previously agreed wouldn't count.
:hi:

[Cha]

50. Right...as buzzflash says.."A new day

A new billary strategy on hijacking the nomination".

[Cha]

28. Obviously hilary took her cue from

george orwell and has been laying 1984 on since she placed 3rd in Iowa..when's somebody gonna get the hook and tell queenie that it's 2008 and Obama is the one. He's the guy.

[Barack_America]

30. She should be careful about questioning the "legitimacy" of any nominee...

Considering the only way she can win is by encouraging superdelegates to vote against the popular vote and delegate counts. And, yes, Obama leads both categories with both Michigan and Florida included as they currently stand (and there's no way she would keep those margins in revotes). Obama will almost certainly lead in both the popular vote and pledged delegates after all the primaries are done.

By bringing up the "legitimacy" issue herself, she's giving an opening to discussion of whether her own nomination could EVER be considered legitimate.

Not a smart thing to do.

[otohara]

182. She Wouldn't If She Were Leading

I'm beginning to not like this Hillary, who is willing to do and say what ever it takes to win.

[KingFlorez]

33. All the voters should have their say

This situation needs to be rectified because it can have repercussions. I don't think a nominee should be selected without all states being properly represented at the convention, it's undemocratic.

[jenmito]

43. Then it's too bad she signed a pledge saying MI and FL wouldn't count.

And are you saying every single state must vote before we have a nominee? Then why did Hillary plan on "wrapping it up" on Feb. 5th?

[Hepburn]

45. True....

...and it is too bad that some states could not follow the rules and thereby some voters got screwed over.

I realize that a lot of people stayed home and thus were disfranchised. Not fair to have the votes of a few determine anything. I hope to hell this does not happen again. Too bad that all that money was wasted on an election that was improper.

But what now....??? Those states have decided not to revote...and it would be wrong to disenfranchise those who followed the rules, stayed home and did not vote in those primaries rather than to allow skewed and non-representative votes to determine who got what delegates. Better, IMO, to leave it the hell alone and make sure this NEVER happens again.

[truebrit71]

88. They should have though about that before improperly changing their primary date...

...actions have consequences....MI and FL did it anyway...

Fuck 'em.

[KingFlorez]

139. The voters didn't change the date

The legislature did, so this situation needs to be fixed so the voters can have their say.

[Upton]

37. What a hypocrite she is

now that she needs the delegates she changes her tune.

I'm sure she still feels however, that a nominee chosen by party insiders, overriding the will of the people, WOULD be legitimate. Hypocrisy reigns supreme in Clinton world.

[DURHAM D]

59. Obama is worse than a hypocrite.

A black man working to suppress suffrage - who would of thunk it?

[Upton]

68. The DNC ruled

Hillary was all for it then. Something tells me, if she was leading in delegates she would care less about "suffrage."

[DURHAM D]

73. Michigan would have re-voted if Obama would have responded to the legislators.

What exactly do you think the DNC ruled on?

[Upton]

Seems to me

The DNC sanctioned both Michigan and Florida by stripping them of their delegates when the states ignored committee rules and moved up their primaries. You know that.

Clinton agreed at the time to abide by the DNC, now it's all different. In my book, that spells hypocrite.

[DURHAM D]

112. Everyone thought a way to seat MI and FL would be worked out.

Re-vote or whatever.

No one could have possibility believed three months ago that disallowing suffrage for 10% of our population was not going to be addressed/worked out by the Democratic Party.

This disenfranchisement will taint (if not destroy) the party for decades. I am afraid this will be a major springboard for a third party to develop.

[redqueen]

122. So they signed a pledge they didn't take seriously?

That doesn't make any sense.

[anamandujano]

132. Everyone can pretend til the cows come home that Florida and Michigan

don't count (thanks to a political clusterfuck), but they show that Hillary is the clear people's choice.

[msallied]

143. Delusional much?

[rodeodance]

103. Yes, BO purposely let the clock run out.

[anamandujano]

136. It wouldn't be too hard to guess why. (Internal polling anyone?)

[crankychatter]

70. Touche'

the I am Rubber YOU are glue defense

brilliant

[truebrit71]

91. Nice strawman...try again...

:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

40. oh brother

[RiverStone]

48. Then lets hold LEGITIMATE primaries!

No way in hell they will count the vote as is - the voters deserve a voice - as long as it is fair and square.

[Lucinda]

49. The problem is that Dean always intended to seat the delegates

they just didn't know it was going to matter. Debbie Dingle said that both MI and FL were told, long before this mess, that the delegates would be seated.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/07/se.01.html

There is NO WAY that they won't seat both states. It's Dem suicide in the GE if they don't.

[madfloridian]

56. Seating is different than counting. Counting must be by the rules.

Corrine Brown and Debbie Dingell, what a pathetic interview.

Blaming one man for what you did.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/07/se.01.html

[Lucinda]

99. I didn't see it as blaming Dean. Dingle said NO ONE expected the events that occurred.

Everything since the elections has been an effort to try and fix the mess. That's where some of the finger pointing has occurred, it's certainly not unexpected under the circumstances.

Everyone knows they can't afford to piss off MI and FL, the problem is finding an agreeable solution.

[madfloridian]

123. Bull hockey.

Of course they knew the consequences. It is to bring down someone who wanted to change the party from insiders to outsiders.

They are by damn doing it, too.

[redqueen]

124. Exactly. I don't for one minute believe

that they didn't take that pledge seriously.

[rodeodance]

57. yes, i know---but he is looking rather weak--not getting at a solution (whatever that is)

[madfloridian]

62. Hillary has started her own party. She is out to destroy the DNC

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1915

[Lucinda]

109. The short-sidedness has created a situation that's just really complicated.

I certainly understand everyone pushing for the most advantageous resolution for their own team.

Bottom line, IMO, is that the delegates will have to be seated or we're in big trouble in the GE.

So there will have to be decisions made unless Wright has done big damage to Obama. If he starts tanking in the remaining primaries, it will resolve itself.

That also applies to Hillary, should something come up that damages her in the coming primaries.

Other than one or the other tanking, they are going to have to work it out. I think the smartest solution is to split MI and seat FLorida as they are. But that's just my opinion. :)

[DURHAM D]

67. Then why did the DNC CEO cancel the room reservations for the MI and FL delegations? eom

[Lucinda]

86. Dunno what the motivation was or when in the process it was done.

What IS apparent to me, though, is that they thought the public spanking would be sufficient, and that they would be able to seat the delegates because it would not have any effect on the election outcome. The finger gets wagged, the flaws in the election system get pointed out, and everyone joins in the rah-rahs at the convention.

They were, of course, totally wrong.

[redqueen]

119. Where did she claim she was told that?

And is seating the same as counting?

Here's the pledge that was signed in in August.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

[Lucinda]

142. The link to the transcript is in my initial post. Here it is again:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/07/se.01.html

[redqueen]

149. You expect others to read an entire transcript to find the basis for your claim?

Why not post the relevant text?

[Lucinda]

160. Not that hard to find the word Dingell in a simple transcript.

The entire discuission of the issue has merit. If you dont want to read it, don't read it.

[redqueen]

162. Is this all there is?

"Nobody thought we would be here, including the two presidential candidates and Howard Dean, who came to Michigan and Florida, by the way, and said, they're going to seat your delegations."

No date... no context... just that? Pretty thin...

[Lucinda]

169. She's a DNC member so I am going to assume she knows what she's talking about

since I haven't seen anyone refute her comments.

[redqueen]

170. I'd be interested in knowing when he went down there,

and the context of what he said.

[Lucinda]

172. I would bet anything it was in the VERY early days, well before Feb 5. It appears

that they felt the nom was going to be sewn up loooong before the delegates would be seated. Presumably the nominee would ask the convention to seat the delegates, and that would have been that. That's why they've been scrambling to find a solution. They truly didn't think it was ever going to matter and so had no backup plan.

I always knew Dean was too smart to write off MI and FL before the GE, but it wasn't until Dingell made the comment that my hunch was confirmed.

[madfloridian]

51. Whining....

[durrrty libby]

52. Yes Hillary. That is what I've been saying all along.

Completely illegitimate without all 50 states.

American Democrats promoting the disenfranchisement of American voters?

These people are a disgrace to Democracy

Fidel Castro will welcome them with open arms.

[wileedog]

131. But all 50 states can be thrown out by the Superdelegates no problem

I think even Castro would laugh at her.

[crankychatter]

58. Cheating at Foursquare

Clinton on the playground having a psychiatric meltdown...

"IT WAS INSIDE THE LINE IT WAS INSIDE THE LINE IT WAS INSIDE THE LINE I'M GONNA TELL TEACHER I'M GONNA TELL TEACHER I'M GONNA TELL TEACHER
CHEATER CHEATER CHEATER CHEATER CHEATER"

Gawud! HOW CAN ANYONE SUPPORT THIS FUCKING HAG.

I mean that in a kind, non-misogynist, supportive way.

[jlake]

60. Yes, and anyone who disagrees with her is either willing to put partisanship over the party, or out

to lunch.

[PoliticalAmazon]

64. Her political ploy is obvious

She flew to Michigan and challenged Obama from there yesterday AFTER the MI Senate had nixed a re-vote. Clearly, it was for political purposes only.

Why isn't the MSM picking up on her instability? Instead of taking care of business in Pennsylvania, in order to cheat and get the delegate votes she promised not to take, she abandons Pennsylvania and flies to Michigan for an opportunity to political bash of Obama.

Her decision-making and priority-setting are clearly in question here, as is, of course, her ethics.

I expect her to soon start wearing a plastic bracelet that reads "WWKRD?"

[Cali_Democrat]

74. Well said

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[zulchzulu]

65. Hey, let's make baseball batters get 10 strikes while we're at it...

Since we're changing rules in the middle of the game, why not change baseball rules too...if a team that was favored to win is losing, the batter gets to decide to have 10 strikes...just for the hell of it.

Same goddamn thing...

[truebrit71]

94. BINGO!!!

We have a winner!!

[democrattotheend]

75. I hate to say it, but she's right

I agree 100% with what Obama said last night about her being disingenuous about the whole thing. I do not believe for one second that she genuinely cares about enfranchising Michigan and Florida voters except for the political value of doing so.

That being said, I will be disappointed if the Obama campaign derails a revote in Michigan. I understand their strategy - they are ahead and they want to sit on a lead. I have no doubt that if the tables were turned Clinton would do the same thing. But we have to think about the big picture here, and neither of them will get to 2025 without the remaining superdelegates. Obama will not have the same moral claim to the nomination if he leads in delegates but Michigan and Florida would alter that result. He should not even be so afraid of a revote in Michigan - polls indicate that he could win Michigan!

If Clinton wins a lot of the later primaries, it will present an impossible situation. We don't want either candidate to get the nomination in such a weakened position that they can't win the general. Even if Obama has more delegates at the end, if he has lost the momentum and simply run out the clock, it will be hard to unite the party and get things moving again. If Clinton has the momentum at the end and Michigan and Florida would put her in the lead in terms of delegates, then giving Obama the nomination will feel like as much of a coup to her supporters as giving it to her despite Obama having more delegates would be for his supporters. Not to mention the fact that Michigan and Florida are swing states that we must win (Michigan) or would like to win (Florida) in the fall.

Obama's campaign should not expect to be able to just run out the clock on the nomination process. Something has to be done about Michigan and Florida, and a revote in Michigan is the only solution I can think of. Many of his concerns are legitimate - the exclusion of people who voted in the GOP primary, the fact that it would be financed by Clinton backers, etc. But he needs to put forward a counter proposal instead of just stalling and hoping the whole thing will fall apart.

[madfloridian]

80. So wrong. MI and FL are in it for Hillary to win. They will blame Obama.

Study it, look at the facts. It will suddenly hit you in the face, the private meetings for ages between the two states. Coming out with the primary plans at about the same time.

The words, the rhetoric.

They are going to destroy the party, Dean and Obama and give Hillary the WH.

[jenmito]

83. But Obama's not blocking anything. He's simply following the DNC rules and said he will

go along with whatever they decide.

[EFerrari]

89. Why should he? MI and FL got themselves into this pickle

Hillary is trying to exploit it. When your opponent is tanking themselves, the best thing to do is to allow Nature to do its work. He's doing exactly the right thing.

[rodeodance]

93. It is the VOTERS that matter. Not your opine that they do not count.

[Usrename]

116. Then it is impossible to make a case for Hillary to stay in the race.

Isn't it?

The voters have chosen Obama. Hillary can only win if the voter's decision is overturned by the superdelegates.

You didn't really mean that it's the voters that matter, did you?

[rodeodance]

118. silly---lots of states to go yet. Where you been?--this is the primary season.

[jenmito]

133. And Hillary signed a PLEDGE that MI and FL votes wouldn't count. But that was only her

position when it was obvious to her that she wouldn't be able to catch him in the delegate count.

[rodeodance]

146. ha ha ---I know what you are afraid of. Too bad it is not up to you.

[jenmito]

156. Ha ha. I know what HILLARY is afraid of-losing the nomination. She doesn't care about the voters

just like she doesn't care about the voters in every state she lost.

[rodeodance]

166. To are boring me. bye

[jenmito]

176. Who's "To"? And I have a feeling by "boring" you you meant replying to you in ways you can't refute

[Owl]

177. I agree.

[Usrename]

125. In 2004 Michigan had a caucus for the presidential primary.

They could do this again now.

I think what is going on really is an attempt to tear the party apart. The blogosphere/grassroots efforts to install Dr. Dean as the party chairman have never set well with some of the old guard, the same old guard that appears to be firmly in the Clinton camp.

I just try to call em as I see em. Hillary is the one opposed to a caucus in Michigan. Her concern about voters is disingenuous.

[truebrit71]

79. No, you have that backwards Hillary, as usual. If MI and FL are counted and you get the nom.....

..it is YOU that will not be legitimate...

STOP FLIP FLOPPING!!!

You disgust me more each day...

[Babel_17]

85. Here's a link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101100859_pf.html

But in fairness it should be noted she also says much more. I'll let other people pick out the quotes they find relevant.

[BlooInBloo]

92. I.e., nominee isn't valid unless SHE'S it. God bless her little scorched earth powermongering heart.

[rodeodance]

97. Too bad BO brought the warth of his garbage in his kichen sink upon himself.

[BlooInBloo]

102. hahahaha! good one!

[EFerrari]

127. How anyone who has witnessed this behavior can still believe

that once she gets into office she won't continue to put her own wellbeing above the wellbeing of the American people is just gobsmacking.

You get what you pay for, folks, and Hillary is showing you RIGHT NOW how she orders her priorities.

If she gets the nomination, you cannot say you weren't warned.

[BlooInBloo]

130. I dunno what "gobsmacking" means, but I like it.

[LulaMay]

95. She kept her name on the ballot because she wanted to avoid this benefitting Rethugs. Her words.

[Upton]

115. Here's some more of her "words"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULxxBz-PAjg

[joshcryer]

96. Times change, and it's true. I said this before. Without MI and FL there's no mandate.

Dean, Pelosi, Hillary *and* Obama were for seating FL and MI. The key here is that Obama has changed his tune (though why I don't know, both need superdelegates to win; he should seat them while the going is hot and just dismiss them as name recognition wins, Hillary can't argue against that).

[redqueen]

128. I think it's misleading to say they were all for seating FL and MI.

Obama was for a caucus, Hillary said she wouldn't accept it.

Hillary found big donors for a new primary, and Obama had problems with that plan.

They may have all been in favor of some sort of re-vote... but never in agreement of how the delegates should be counted.

[redqueen]

100. Oh for the love of God and all that's holy... why did she go there?

:eyes:

[cascadiance]

110. So I guess someone's saying that we can't have a legitimate Dem nominee...

Since without a revote, we can't really have any clearly Democratically selected by the rules winner from either of those states.

[EFerrari]

113. Right. Our nominee isn't legitimate unless it's Hillary.

Which circles right back to The Inevitability of Being Hillary.

[rodeodance]

120. too bad the myth of 'electability" went out the door this week!--but it was a myth to start with.

[dpbrown]

126. Shouldn't Michigan and Florida have thought about this in the first place?

I mean, the party says you have to have your primaries at a certain time, and then you decide differently despite the consequences.

[Medusa]

135. If Obama would have won these two races, Hillary would feel VERY differently

she'd be saying that it would be an outrage to count them and wouldn't give a shit about their "legitimacy" or not.

[DURHAM D]

138. Three other states went there - five states applied for rule changes.

Three got permission - two didn't (MI and FL). Ummh?

[redqueen]

153. Source for that, please? (nt)

[Vinca]

154. So if she manages to get the superdelegates to go along with her

and make her the nominee, she won't be legitimate. That makes sense. She'll have an asterisk next to her name, just like Shrub.

[jenmito]

159. Good point!

:D

[Arugula Latte]

168. Funny how your tune has changed, Hillary.

It would just be so much easier if we just declared you Queen already, wouldn't it?

[jenmito]

173. Her tune has ALSO changed re: this being "about delegates," too, as well as caucuses not

counting, certain states not counting, etc.

[HuffleClaw]

178. hehehehehe

i think you're quite correct, though i do have a problem with two whole states worth of people being disenfranchised because of some childish tiff about the date of their primaries. i see no problem with a 'do-over' in which ALL the candidates are represented.

[jenmito]

179. I would agree, but all of the candidates AGREED that they wouldn't count since

they broke the rules.

[SeaLyons]

181. Things change....

Michigan and FL need to be counted. Nothing wrong with Hillary fighting for their votes.