Pastor Wright said the same things Ron Paul did

[galaxy21]

Paul blamed 9/11 on America. But he hailed as a maverick, and honest. Wright says the same thing and is labelled a madman and a racist.

Isn't it odd how the white dude is praised as brave for criticising foreign policy of the US, and the black guy is condemend for racism and being unpatriotic?

[EFerrari]

1. A lot of people have pointed out that our foreign policy engendered hatred.

Ron Paul was not the first by any means.

Just ask most citizens of Latin America, South East Asia or the Arab world.

[robbedvoter]

50. True. Better people than Rue Paul too. The association is hardly a validation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Because the black dude is Obama's preacher

[leftynyc]

3. Wasn't hailed by a maverick by me

I think they're both lunatics.

[EFerrari]

4. When you shake that sand out of your ears, you might hear

that most of the world agrees with them. :hi:

[leftynyc]

14. I don't give a shit

if everyone believes lunacy. That's their problem. Right after 9/11, the rest of the world was entirely sympathetic to us - it was only the chimps actions that turned their heads against us. You want to remember it different than that, go ahead and put your blinders on.

[stillcool]

25. Funny what people choose to remember...

Reverend Wright is a pastor of a church in a community. He speaks of the life he has known. I think he was spot on, about how our foreign policy has effected the people of the world, and what that means for our future. Perhaps it would have been better if he had put it this way:

Blowback
excerpted from the book
Blowback The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
by Chalmers Johnson
Henry Holt, 2000
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blowback_CJohnson/Blowback_BCJ.html

p8
The term "blowback," which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.
p9
One man's terrorist is, of course, another man's freedom fighter, and what U.S. officials denounce as unprovoked terrorist attacks on its innocent citizens are often meant as retaliation for previous American imperial actions. Terrorists attack innocent and undefended American targets precisely because American soldiers and sailors firing cruise missiles from ships at sea or sitting in B-52 bombers at extremely high altitudes or supporting brutal and repressive regimes from Washington seem invulnerable. As members of the Defense Science Board wrote in a 1997 report to the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and technology, "Historical data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorist attacks against the United States. In addition, the military asymmetry that denies nation states the ability to engage in overt attacks against the United States drives the use of transnational actors that is, terrorists from one country attacking in another."
The most direct and obvious form of blowback often occurs when the victims fight back after a secret American bombing, or a U.S.-sponsored campaign of state terrorism, or a CIA-engineered overthrow of a foreign political leader. All around the world today, it is possible to see the groundwork being laid for future forms of blowback.
------------------------------------------
Terrorism(by definition)strikes at the innocent in order to draw attention to the sins of the invulnerable. The innocent of the twenty-first century are going to harvest unexpected blowback disasters from the imperialist escapades of recent decades. Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price-individually and collectively-for their nation's continued efforts to dominate the global scene. Before the damage of heedless triumphalist acts and the triumphalist rhetoric and propaganda that goes with them becomes irreversible, it is important to open a new discussion of our global role during and after the Cold War...
------------------------
"Blowback" is shorthand for saying that a nation reaps what it sows, even if it does not fully know or understand what it has sown. Given its wealth and power, the United States will be a prime recipient in the foreseeable future of all of the more expectable forms of blowback, particularly terrorist attacks against Americans in and out of the armed forces anywhere on earth, including within the United States. But it is blowback in its larger aspect-the tangible costs of empire-that truly threatens it. Empires are costly operations, and they become more costly by the year. The hollowing out of American industry, for instance, is a form of blowback-an unintended negative consequence of American policy- even though it is seldom recognized as such. The growth of militarism in a once democratic society is another example of blowback. Empire is the problem. Even though the United States has a strong sense of invulnerability and substantial military and economic tools to make such a feeling credible, the fact of its imperial pretensions means that a crisis is inevitable. More imperialist projects simply generate more blowback. If we do not begin to solve problems in more prudent and modest ways, blowback will only become more intense.

The American Empire: 1992 to present
from the book
Killing Hope
by William Blum
2004 edition
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/American_Empire_KH2004.html

Following its bombing of Iraq in 1991, the United States wound up with military bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates.
Following its bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the United States wound up with military bases in Kosovo, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, Bosnia and Croatia.
Following its bombing of Afghanistan in 2001-2, the United States wound up with military bases in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Yemen and Djibouti.
Following its bombing and invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States wound up with Iraq.
This is not very subtle foreign policy. Certainly not covert. The men who run the American Empire are not easily embarrassed
And that is the way the empire grows-a base in every neighborhood, ready to be mobilized to put down any threat to imperial rule, real or imagined. Fifty-eight years after world War II ended, the United States still has major bases in Germany and Japan; fifty ears after the end of the Korean War, tens of thousands of American armed forces continue to be stationed in South Korea.
"America will have a continuing interest and presence in Central Asia of a kind that we could not have dreamed of before," US Secretary of State Colin Powell declared in February 2002. Later that year, the US Defense Department announced: "The United States Military is currently deployed to more locations then it has been throughout history."

A Brief History of U.S. Interventions: 1945 to the Present
by William Blum
Z magazine , June 1999
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html
The United States carried out extremely serious interventions into more than 70 nations in this period.

[Window]

34. Each one, teach one.

[EFerrari]

31. No. For a little while after 9/11, most of the world cut us some slack.

They put aside how much we were disliked globally and tried to stand with us.

That you don't know that history is your problem.

[leftynyc]

38. All my friends and acquaintenance in Europe

(where I travel to EVERY summer) told me the same thing - they love Americans and hate George Bush. They were horrified by 9/11. They also know that when some natural disaster struck, Americans were the first to send people and most importantly, money. The whole world depends on us for help. All they want is a change in administration. If you're talking about those in the middle east that want to kill us - don't ask me to understand their issues - I couldn't care less. Once they start killing our civilians, they don't deserve understanding. You sound just like the right wingers - they also hate the people in their own country. Great company you keep.

[Exilednight]

45. You sound just like a righ-wing talking point. You fail to recognize that ......

our fucked up foreign policy of the middle-east is one of the reasons we were attacked? Don't get me wrong, but Osama bin-Laden deserves what ever punishment our government decides to dole out, but it appears you really have no understanding of the world outside of western civilization. Go live in a country like Turkey for a year and see how well the US is liked, many of them hate us, and they're a member of NATO.

[leftynyc]

51. I'm taking Bin Laden at his word

and don't try to put words into his mouth. His complaint was American forces in Saudi Arabia on what he considers holy land. American forces were invited there by the Saudi royal family. We didn't invade and were not occupiers. It wasn't until MUCH later that bin laden even mentioned the Palestinians - and that was merely so he would get more support from the mindless drones. He doesn't care about the Palestinians any more than any other mid-east country does. They use that issue to quell their own populations and keep the heat off of their own corrupt leaders. Don't think I'm saying our foreign policy is not fucked up in areas - it most certainly is. My beef with the good Rev Wright is his embrace of Farrakhan who I consider a hate-filled miscreant. I could care less about the out of context quotes being shown over and over. I don't need those reasons to dislike the man.

And do try to refrain from calling anyone who disagrees with your worldview a right winger. It's impolite at least and mindless sophistry at most.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Exilednight]

60. So now I'm an asshole? Rush on line 2 for you. Any other right wing tactics you want to use?......

Maybe Coulter will call next for you.

[leftynyc]

59. And I alerted you newbie (n/t)

[Exilednight]

62. That's fine, I alerted you too for the asshole comment.

[Drachasor]

80. Of course, but that doesn't change the fact our foreign policy has often been self-centered

We've propped up dictators all over, and treated the middle east horribly in particular. That doesn't justify 9/11 by any means, but it helped to breed anger and hatred towards us in particular. Btw, one of the things Bin Laden was angry about is how we had troops in Saudi Arabia.

If you repeatedly poke someone in the tummy, then they might punch you in the face. The pokes don't justify that punch, but the punch probably wouldn't have happened without them. I'm not saying 9/11 is entirely analogous to that, but there are similarities.

[Cali_Democrat]

19. The whole world think America invited the 9/11 attack by sticking our noses in the middle east

I agree. Get out of your pathetic American bubble.

[leftynyc]

36. Listen cupcake

I've travelled more than most people - all over the world including the middle east. Religious freaks are religious freaks no matter which side of the aisle they come from. My biggest beef with this particular religious nut is his apparent closeness with hate-monger Louis Farrakhan. His church honored that cretin with an award and that makes me sick. So, stop making stupid, ignorant assumptions about people you know nothing about. Esp when the candidate you support is preaching unity. He'd be embarassed by supporters like you.

[Cali_Democrat]

40. Cupcake?

Keep lapping up the weak Bush talking points, loser. I've been to many places across the Globe including the UK, New York, Germany, France, Pakistan and Japan. America is hated. Get used to it. God, I can't believe your actually a New Yorker. You make me sick.

:puke:

[leftynyc]

42. Get lost

Keep your head in the sand all you like. Sen Obama is going to need moderates and swing voters in order to win in November. Keep insulting people with your ignorant view of the world - it'll get you and your candidate far. If McCain gets in because all the swing voters abandon the dems, we'll get to thank people like you. Now be a good little Obama supporter and put me on ignore.

[msallied]

26. Are you a Republican?

Just curious.

[leftynyc]

35. No - a lifelong dem who makes no

distinction between right wing and left wing religious freaks.

[Exilednight]

47. I think it's Rush Limpballs trying to act like a Democrat. For someone who claims to be so.......

well travled, he has no concept of what happens, or what other countries really think of the US.

[leftynyc]

53. Oy Vey

First off, I'm a woman. I have never even listenend to Rush. You and other Sen Obama supporters who insult those who aren't rabid supporters of your savior are only harming his campaign. If you think he can get elected by just you rabid supporters, you're delusional. So why don't you take a lesson from your candidate and try some unity - unless of course you think his entire schtik is bullshit and we can just keep going in the polarized way we have been. Sen Obama would be appalled and embarassed by supporters like you. Now, put your head and anything else you like in the sand and put me on ignore if your only way to have a dialogue is to accuse people of being right wingers. You and your ilk are going to be the death of this party.

[Exilednight]

56. No, people like you believing righ-wing talking points will be the death of this party. n/t

[leftynyc]

61. That's pretty fucking rich coming

from an Obama supporter. You and your ilk have been repeating every right wing talking about against Hillary Clinton for months and now you whine when it's turned against you. What a fucking crybaby you are. Time for your diaper change.

[Exilednight]

63. I've never used a right wing talking. You just spouted off a ton of them in this thread alone. n/t

[leftynyc]

64. You seem to be the expert

If right wing talking points mean I don't agree with your worldview - guilty.

Good luck with that unity thing - it's a sure winner with those you're trying to convince.

[Exilednight]

65. Who are you confusing me with? I might support Obama, but I never claimed to be a unifier........

you sure do make a lot of assumptions. I'll vote for Obama, and I'll bring like minded people into the fold and ask them to vote for Obama, but it's not my job to sell unity with the repugs.

[leftynyc]

67. Ah - so your support the candidate but

not his message. That explains a lot.

[Exilednight]

69. Do you agree 100% with any candidate? I sure as hell don't. I'm a thinking.........

human being, not some sheep to be lead around by the nose. Just because I support someone doesn't mean I agree with 100% of their message.

It's strange that I had to point this out to you. That explains a lot.

[leftynyc]

70. So can I put you on record as

thinking the whole unity thing is crap? As far as your first question, too ridiculous to waste my time answering as I don't support either Hillary or Obama but will vote for either against mccain.

[Exilednight]

72. You miss the point of unity, I don't want to unite with repugs, I want the country.......

to unify for the right reasons. I want unity, not just in the form you speculate. I don't want repugs voting for Obama because they think he will bend over and kiss their ass. I want them to vote for him because his message is the same thing I want.

Unity is only based on the definition you give to it. You can have unity through compromise, or you can have unity by bringing people around to your belief. Personally I wouldn't waste my time on unifying with the likes of Coulter, Limpballs, or Shammity. Nothing anyone says will change their minds.

I don't believe in unity through compromise, and I don't believe in unity for unity's sake. I believe in unifying around what is right and pushing away that which is wrong.

[leftynyc]

73. So you'll only buy unity

if everyone agrees with you and your ideas. Gotcha

Thank goodness, the Senator seems to be beyond that.

[Exilednight]

75. You missed everything I said. I'll take unity from anyone who can tell the difference........

between right and wrong.

[leftynyc]

76. Between YOUR right and YOUR wrong

Politics, like marriages, require compromise. Nobody gets their way all the time. All adults have to compromise - sometimes several times in just one day.

[Exilednight]

77. So ending racial discrimination is wrong? What about health care for all people?......

Wanting to end hunger is wrong?

Wanting to end homelessness is wrong?

Wanting no more war is wrong?

If someone answers any of those questions by saying "yes that is wrong", then they are wrong.

[leftynyc]

78. You're being very selective

There are hundreds, maybe thousands of issues out there that reasonable people disagree about. Nothing gets done without compromise. And I don't think your last sentence makes sense.

[Exilednight]

81. These are my personal views of unity. Things get done all the time without........

compromise - just look at our current administration. shrub refuses to compromise on FISA, Iraq, or dozens of other issues.

[leftynyc]

82. And I share those personal views

But I've been around long enough to know that in Washington, the big ideas need unity. The next administration will be free to undo as much damage to our civil rights as can get passed by congress and that includes FISA, Patriot Act, immunity for telecoms - all that shit. But the big ideas you're speaking of require compromise. If it is presented as an all or nothing proposition, it will likely lose. I don't demonize people who disagree with me - I may consider them misguided but they are not considered evil until they do something evil (who I would, of course, include most of the administration).

[leftynyc]

74. Sorry - dupe

[olkaz]

5. To be fair, Ron Paul was labeled a madman and a racist too.

Not that he didn't deserve it, but this is not an effective argument.

[littlebit]

6. I thought Paul

was an idiot. I also think Wright is an idiot.

[EFerrari]

10. If you think Wright is an idiot, then you must be very ignorant

of the history of discrimination in this country. Not to mention, the current state of affairs. Good luck with that.

[leftynyc]

54. Such a stupid argument

Rev Wright embraced the hate monger Louis Farrakhan. His church honored him. Take a look at that cretin's words and then talk to me about discrimination. Unless of course, it's only white discrimination and racism against blacks that matters to you.

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/farrakhan_own_words2/on_jews.asp

I don't think Sen Obama agrees with him Farrakhan and has even said so. My beef is not with the Senator. It's with Rev Wright who I consider a clown.

[Exilednight]

48. Paul was an idiot, but he was an idiot for different reasons........

The answer to our foreign policy is not isolationism.

The answer to our economy is not to go back to the gold standard.

The answer to violence is not to make it easier for people to get guns.

The answer to the racial divide is not to blame the victims for centuries of injustice.

Paul was a nut alright.

[DangerDave921]

7. He said a little more than that didn't he?

Did Ron Paul talk about how the US government created HIV as a means of genocide against black people? Or say US of KKKA? Or say God damn America?

I think it's fine to argue that American policies contributed to us getting attacked. But I think it's Wright's more inflammatory comments that have gotten so much press.

[DearAbby]

23. :::knocks on Monitor:::

Rev. Wright isnt running for President of the United States. And correct me if I am wrong, but people have the right of free speech, even in the pulpit.

I dont see why this matters. Obama has denounced the statements. distanced himself from them. Obama didnt say them, His pastor did.

Should I hold Hillary to the same standards and refuse to vote for her because of what Ferraro said? Hillary didnt say it, Ferraro did. Oh I know, Hillary had made a fine speech, and apologized. But why should I accept that?

[EFerrari]

32. You shouldn't. Because the Clinton campaign, as noted by the NYTs

is still flogging racial division.

I can't give anyone a pass for that. Can you?

[DangerDave921]

43. Moving the goal posts

You are totally changing the theme of this thread. You initially compared Wright to Ron Paul. I pointed out some differences. You then went in another direction entirely, rather than focusing on Wrirght vs. Paul.

I swear -- a lot of people must not understand what the right of free speech is. Of course Wright and Obama and everyone else has a right of free speech. No one is saying they don't. But that doesn't mean you can avoid the consequences of saying unpopular things. The right of free speech protects you from GOVERNMENT punishment for speech. It does not guarantee you the right to say anything you want free of all consequences.

And we all know that Wright is not running for Pres. But Obama has described him as his mentor, his advisor, etc. So if Obama's mentor and advisor is saying all these inflammatory things, might it not be reasonable to ask if Obama agrees with them? That's all this is about. It is a 100% different situation from comparing Hillary and Feraro.

[polichick]

8. I don't see anything wrong with what Rev. Wright said...

It's too bad some people are so simple-minded that they can't separate substance from style.

[LostinVA]

9. I loathe Ron Paul

[EFerrari]

11. I think that was the point of this thread. n/t

[leftynyc]

22. No it wasn't

The point was to distinguish the reaction of Ron Paul saying the same things Rev Wright did. So far, most on this thread agree that both are crazy.

[EFerrari]

27. Both are crazy? Please know that in following the Fox line

you are simply exposing your inpenetrable ignorance.

[leftynyc]

41. Fox news is blocked on my TV

I'm getting sick and tired of being called a racist, a republican and ignorant because I very simply disagree with Sen Obama supporters. You want to insult me because it makes you feel smarter and stronger in your postions, all I'm going to do is wonder what the hell you're feeling so insecure about that you feel the need to do that. That's for the one second I'll think about your opinion of me. In fact, do us both a favor and behave like a good Obama supporter and put me on ignore.

Yes, both are fucking crazy.

[Rosemary2205]

12. so did Phelps, Falwell and Robertson.

But white people in America won't react negatively to a white guy sitting there calmly saying America did it to herself. Many white people in America are instictively turned off by any physically and verbally animated black man, no matter what he is saying. The whole purpose of playing the tape over and over is put the idea in white people's minds that the calm, almost emotionless exterior we see with Obama is a big lie, and that in real life he's a scary out of control arm flapping, microphone screaming, spit throwing, white hating black man who will car jack you and rape white wimmin in a second.

This claim that they are showing it to question Obama's patriotism is total BS.

[watrwefitinfor]

29. This is exactly the reason, and there is no other.

Deserves a post of its own.

Wat

[gayron]

13. I did not know Ron said "God D America"

[MonkeyFunk]

15. And Ron Paul is a racist kook, too.

So?

[jenmito]

16. I said the same thing in emails to MSNBC and CNN since they keep repeating

(certain people there) that Obama should've left the church immediately when he heard about those remarks. :eyes:

[Fresh_Start]

17. how many democrats are supporting Ron Paul?

I think the VAST majority of democrats and Americans have rejected Ron Paul but maybe you have other numbers?

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. His views didn't prove very popular with voters

[rug]

20. That comparison does not help Rev. Wright.

[bunnies]

21. Our foreign policy in the Middle East played a role in causing 9/11

Anyone that argues against that needs to read up a bit.

[EFerrari]

24. As a matter of fact, Wright did not say the same thing Ron Paul said.

Their positions couldn't be more opposite.

Rev. Wright was for community responsibility and building up people, and Ron Paul was for letting people be left behind.

Rev. Wright is not a bigot no matter how much he criticizes the US government and Ron Paul is one.

But you are right insofar as the white guy got air time and the black minister, with six degrees to his name and a lifetime of devotion to his community got made into a cartoon for racist consumption.

That's not odd. That's bigotry.

[WinkyDink]

28. Is Ron Paul a Democrat? Who cares what he said?

[joeybee12]

30. hailed as a maverick by about 5% of this country...had he somehow

gotten more support and higher in the polls, this would have been an issue.

[blm]

33. Hillary CLINTON held up a newspaper in the senate that said BUSH KNEW -

and that clip would be used just as readily as anything Wright said.

I think Clinton camp FORGOT about that moment of integrity from HRC.

[boppers]

37. What, SPAM requres more spam?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

[Life Long Dem]

39. And who could do more harm to our country?

Someone in congress or a preacher? Knowing the crazy Hillary supporters they'll say a preacher because blah blah blah. But congress authorizes wars. McCain and Falwell were another cozy couple.

[Jamastiene]

44. That is because in this case, the black dude blamed it on

White America only. The white dude, in this case, blamed it on all of America equally. Dammit, get used to it. We are in this together whether you see it yet or not. Our race should not matter.

[shayes51]

46. Paul said God Damn America?

[robbedvoter]

49. People who hailed Paul as "maverik and honest" aren't on DU. Not a compliment to Wright

to share common views with the guy who also believes that 92% of the blacks in DC are criminals and opposed any help for Katrina victims.

[NoPasaran]

52. I hailed Ron Paul as a maniacal crackpot

I haven't paid much attention to this Wright feller, but I guess he's one too.

[Texas Hill Country]

58. did he engage in wild conspiracy theory?

didnt think so.

[Orsino]

66. I also blame America...

...for policies that incite some of its victims to violence, and for jingoism that leads to idiotic non-issues like this one.

[DemzRock]

68. And look where Ron Paul is today! n/t

[Hoof Hearted]

71. Ron Paul is an IDIOT. God, I thought that was obvious.

[NNN0LHI]

79. Perhaps Paul was hailed as a maverick, and honest by you and a few others

But not by most sane people I know.

Don