One big problem in this discussion: white people aren't used to being called "white people"

[EffieBlack]

Most white folks think of themselves as "people" while many are perfectly willing and eager to label other races/ethnic groups by their classification. That's why, for example, we keep hearing about the "women's vote," when commentators really mean "white women."

It's a running joke in the black community that, until recently (once the media got called on it), we could always tell if a criminal suspect was black or white - if they were black, 5'11, clean-shaven, wearing a white sweatsuit, they were described as "black, 5'11, clean-shaven, wearing a white sweatsuit." If they were white, they were described as "5'11, clean-shaven, wearing a white sweatsuit." We have become so used to being described as "black" even in situations when our race is totally irrelevant that it rolls right off our back. White people, on the other hand just aren't used to this.

I think that one of the reasons that Rev. Wright's comments - and some of the commentary about them - have upset some white people because, being unaccustomed to being labeled by race, they bristle at hearing themselves described as "white" when they think of themselves as just "people." If you're not used to being so described, it may sound as if it's a perjorative.

That, in my view, is one of the reasons that some people are so worked up over Jeremiah Wright's comments, such as "America is run by rich white people." He was speaking the plain truth, but it sounds like an attack to some folks.

Discuss.

[stray cat]

1. I actually think you have a point.....

[Texas Hill Country]

20. agreed.

[Bluebear]

2. Yet you yourself self-identify as "EffieBlack".

Just an observation.

[YDogg]

6. heh

[fascisthunter]

9. That Means What Exactly?

That the person is used to being called "black"? I don't get your point.

[Bluebear]

12. She bemoans being labelled as black, yet self-labels herself via her nickname.

There's nothing wrong with it, I said I just made an observation.

[BlooInBloo]

17. I'm sure it's because she's oversensitive and wants to be a victim.

[Bluebear]

22. I'm sure that's quite a ridiculous conclusion to reach.

[fascisthunter]

19. "She Bemoans Being Called Black"... Uh No. It's In Her Name... try again (nt)

[Bluebear]

25. I'm not "trying" anything. If you're looking for a fight, go away.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

[fascisthunter]

28. Nope... I'm Putting You on the Spot... Now Try Again (nt)

[EffieBlack]

24. I didn't bemoan anything

I'm just pointing out that black people are used to being called black while white people are not comfortable being called white.

[fascisthunter]

27. I Understood it That Way...

I think Bluebear is "fishing".

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fascisthunter]

35. Nice Try at Twisting Her Words, Now Calling Me Names

[Bluebear]

38. Our relationship at DU is at an end, have a wonderful life.

[fascisthunter]

39. Yeah... whatever (nt)

[Bluebear]

30. Thanks for answering...

I'm not "comfortable" being called white because there is no need to it for me. Here again I'm sure what you say can occur, but it does not typify white people. Maybe rich white racist Republicans, but not all white people.

[Bluebear]

47. Also, when you are gay and white you are not "the norm" . . .

so I think in my case I never feel that I am the "default" American, if that makes sense.

[PetraPooh]

60. Excellent OP, and very thoughtful. I hear you POV loud and clear, and agree that

it IS probably what is bugging so many people (white people). To be identified by race is so customary for non-whites, that you'all just don't react to it much anymore; whereas for "us" (hanging head in shame for being "us" and for being caught as well in your accuracy) it is not customary and not only do we react, we over-react.

[EmilyAnne]

62. I didn't see any bemoaning by Effieblack. She is talking about white people not being

accustomed to being called "white people." You know? Its very clearly laid out. Its so hard to be civil to someone you says such obtuse things, Bluebear.

[Bluebear]

65. Fine, then don't be civil to me since I says such obtuse things.

Also, you may try reading the conversation since that post.

[Kashka-Kat]

63. Reading & comprehension skills - D minus! O.P. writes that blacks are used to being

called black, that it rolls right off them. Doesnt sound like "bemoaning" to me!

[Bluebear]

66. Thanks for your input.

[myrna minx]

26. Did you consider that Black may be her last name and has nothing to do with her race? nt

on edit: weird syntax

[Bluebear]

34. At first yes but most people don't use their legal names here

[bicentennial_baby]

3. That's so interesting, I was recently reading "Race Matters"

by Dr. West, and he talks about how whites feel that "white" is the normative state and thereby neutral. It really struck me, as a white person. While I thought myself to be marginally enlightened, I have much to learn. I'm ok with that. :)

[EffieBlack]

7. Dr. West is dead on . . .

We see that right in this debate over Wright. The assumption seems to be that because he is expressing a view that deviates from the view that most whites hold - which is seen to be the "norm" - his view is aberrant and, therefore suspicious. There is little consideration given to the fact that the view of many whites is not necessarily the "norm" but is the other end of a spectrum, with the truth being somewhere in the middle.

[bicentennial_baby]

23. Well put!

Yeah, not all of us are like our media driven portrayals. :P

I'm not surprised to see such "shock" over the ideas expressed, but I am disgusted by the racial terms in which this debate is being couched.

[tigereye]

56. yes, I think you make a very good point

[Horse with no Name]

4. I don't give a fuck what people call me

and I live in a town of 50% Blacks...so yeah, I am pretty used to being called the "white lady".
It doesn't bother me.
However, that doesn't mean I am racially insensitive to what Blacks are called.
And yes, I know racism exists. I do not deny that.
But this post is way off the mark.

[EffieBlack]

10. You curse at me and claim MY post if "way off the mark?"

Wow.

[Horse with no Name]

70. I did not curse AT you

but nice try.:eyes:

[XemaSab]

5. This is totally true

We had an exercise on race back in the day in the school I went to.

All the black kids thought the phrase "that white girl" was a perfectly good way to describe someone's physical attributes, but the white kids were all like "Oh... bringing RACE into it... I see...."

Both groups felt exactly the opposite about the phrase "that black girl." :rofl:

[redstate_democrat]

8. kick!

You've hit the nail on the head. But some white people will be totally oblivious to what you're talking about.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Or black quarterback., for another example.

[Mist]

13. How true. I think it's a shock for some whites to realize to some, they're "the other." nt

[Mags]

14. that is silly.

[baldguy]

15. Well, white people are weird.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. So true...

...language is a powerful thing.

For example, what is the neutral pronoun?

Hint: it's not "it" or "they".

BTW, I started a survey (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5178501&mesg_id=5178501) to see how many of the DUers who have been railing on and on and on about Obama and his preacher have actually been to the church in question...and it's hard to tell from this non-scientific survey on a fast-moving message board, but, of the 5 (only 5!?) who answered, none of them (zero) have ever set foot in the church.

Don't know what that says, but I bet few of the people talking about it on TV have ever been either.

[sloppyjoe25s]

18. Absolutely true! I am white and the

words jar when you hear "white people" - you go "hey wait..."

and then you realize - it is just because you are used to never being classified.

As a white person - i have always been given the privilege of just being a person. Crazy.

IT IS ONLY BY FOLLOWING OBAMAS MESSAGE AND LEAD that we as a nation can make progress on these issues.

Thanks for another very thought provoking post!

[TheDoorbellRang]

71. "As a white person - i have always been given the privilege of just being a person. "

We are more egocentric than many of us realize, I think. One example that springs to mind is the translation of the tribal names of groups of people around the world: many, many times, their name translated is "The People." It's one of the reasons I have trouble with the phrase "African American." Seems to me like a qualifier -- we have Americans and African Americans. Strikes me the same as hearing someone talk about lady doctors.

It is changing a little:
My generation: "My black friend, John Doe."
My kids' generation: "My friend, John Doe."

[my2sense]

21. Cosign

You hit the nail on the head. It's as if many whites perhaps subconsciously believe THEY are the norm - thus they don't require a race label, just the rest of us.

[MaryCeleste]

42. Whites do not consider themselves white, if they group at all its by national origin

French, Brit, Irish, German...not white vs black. In the US its American, and rarely if ever Greek-American or Swedish-American.

National origin is the grouping factor, not skin color. I have seen some of that in immigrants from Africa, Somalis etc who identify as Somali and not black.

[my2sense]

48. Yes and No

there are some that group themselves by national origin but the vast majority group by white/black/asian/hispanic and most of our institutions do the same.

[Connie_Corleone]

29. It's still a running joke in the local media where I live.

They still fail to mention if a suspect is black or white when they give a description.

We figure if they don't say what race he is, he's white.

[Kber]

31. I'm not white

I'm very white, damn it!

Which I didn't realize until my mom married a black man and we became a "blended" family.

Thanksgiving is kinda like a UN conference at our house and I love every minute of it!

on edit - blending our families - black and white - has been an interesting and rewarding experience and I have become used to being called the "white" cousin. It did take a little getting used to at first.

[sloppyjoe25s]

46. that is a great example... here is another...

I was in a relationship with a black woman for a couple of years a few years back... and i had to get used to
being called her "white boyfriend"

the funny thing though was - alot of whites also have a hard time saying the word "black" - sometimes they would stumble when they
would want to describe my girlfriend - because they were not sure if it was "OK" to say she was black.

She would always laugh her ass off. Which i think is a great response.

But shows we really all have to do more to talk about this stuff ALOT more than we normally do.

[EFerrari]

33. LOL!

:rofl:

That's so right, Effie!

All over the world, people call themselves "people" and they call those other guys "those snakes over the hill".

[Raine]

36. Interesting

as a white person I guess I hadn't thought of it that way. It seems that for me my race doesn't come up unless it's on some questionaire and I mark Caucasion (sp?).

Edit: Typo

[Bonobo]

37. That is a good point. White is the default. We don't like being called that.

[bicentennial_baby]

41. Exactly, as I was saying above... "default"

I didn't think of it like that until recently and wow...I have an altered view now.

[GumboYaYa]

40. For a coonass like me, being called white people sounds like a compliment.

But your point is well taken, most white bread, white folks haven't ever been around black folks who are comfortable enough to talk naturally.

[Beregond2]

43. "White"

Good point.

I know a young guy who is very conservative. He told me once it makes him angry when black people are referred to as "African Americans." I said: "What would you prefer they be called?" "Americans," he said. "Well," I replied, "that's very nice, but what about when you have to distinguish by race? You have to use some term." He had no answer for that.

I think conservatives in particular are uncomfortable with racial terminology, because they assume that it leads immediately to judgements of them based on their race. And they always argue that they aren't responsible for the actions of their ancestors, refusing to acknowledge that there is any holdover from those times in their own attitudes.

Liberals are far more open to self-examination, probably because they are fundamentally less fearful, less threatened. So when they are called "white," their response is going to be more along the lines of: "Yes; now let's talk about that." Whereas conservatives get defensive.

[TheDoorbellRang]

73. Then the question becomes

when and why is it necessary to distinguish by race? I agree with your conservative friend -- Americans are Americans; we all happen to have different ethnic heritages, is all.

[Hardrada]

44. Except on Stormfront where people identify themselves as

white people or more specifically as White Nationalists. White has the highest rank there.

[LaurenG]

45. Well they must be some really sheltered people then

This is getting so ridiculous that I can't get up the energy to care about the stupidity of my fellow human beings anymore. They will either "get it" or they won't.

I'll just grow a garden and quit interacting with others and live a good life without the growing pains of ugly America to worry about..

(this was not pointed at you in any way, it's the thought of Americans being upset that someone noticed they're white)

[Justitia]

49. When I lived in a black community, some of my neighbors called me "Lily" as in Lily-White.

It was funny and said in affection. They sometimes even referred to me as their "Sister, Lily".

This is apropos of nothing in your post, your post just reminded me of that and gave me a chuckle.

No one has called me "Lily" in a long time and it took me back to West Philly.

But yeah, there are probably loads of white people who have never been around a mixed community in their entire lives and being called "white people" probably sounds like an insult.

Weird, huh?

[cbayer]

50. You make a good point, but it depends on your perspective.

I am white, but spent my high school years in the south side of Chicago and went to a school that was 90% black. I heard "white people" all the time.

I spent a year in Santa Fe, NM, when white people were third in population behind Spanish (that's how they self-identified) and native americans. I heard "white people" all the time.

I spent 20 years in NOLA, where the population was (unfortunately no longer is) primarily AA. I heard "white people" all the time.

My point is, for white people who grow up and live in predominantly white places, it probably is a new term. But for people like me, not so much.

Maybe that's why Rev. Wright's sermons don't bother me. That, and i spent a fair amount of time in Rev. Jackson's church while in Chicago and my father is preacher.

[Straight Shooter]

51. You might have it wrong. ""5'11, clean-shaven, wearing a white sweatsuit."

This indicates that people automatically presume the perpetrator/criminal is white unless pointed out otherwise. I don't think you would prefer that the criminal be presumed to be black, and that it only be indicated if he/she is white.

[Mabus]

52. My old boss's jaw dropped when I used the term "white people" around her

at least the first time. She said she never heard that before. I told her that's what my mom always said and I grew up hearing it.

Whenever my husband tells me that we're going to do something that I don't particular want to do, I look at him and say, "what do you me 'we' white man?" ;)

[redqueen]

53. Hah... interesting.

My immediately family is mixed-race, and so was my grandma's, so... I hardly notice that sort of thing.

[More Than A Feeling]

54. I think part of it is that there is an impression that

the only white people who ever seem to self-identify as "white"or think about "white" as a "race" are white supremacists. Therefore, because I am not a white supremacist, there is a pressure not to think about or talk about my race at all for fear of the "slippery slope" or giving others the impression of being a white supremacist. It generally seems much safer never to refer to it at all.

[BlackVelvet04]

55. No, we're used to being called

leprechauns.

Good grief, what a silly OP.

[noiretextatique]

57. another thing...until fairly recently, white people haven't had to listen to black people

or their opinions, one of the facts of segregation and exclusion.

several years ago when i was in an online creativity class in grad school, i posted a poem about my great grandmother's oft-repeated admonishment to "never trust the white man." in the poem, i took described my great grandmother as the fair-skinned, blue-eyed person that she was, which i thought explained the irony (and tragedy) of her mantra.

my poem created quite the stir among the other students because: they didn't like my reality, or that of my great grandmother's. and because they didn't like the reality, they felt they could silence it, with cries of racism, etc. they literally wanted to shut me up, and silence the experience of my great grandparents, their parents and their experience...and mine.

the professor of the course finally had to intervene with a startling simple, and seemingly self-evident statement: you don't have the right to be upset about the life experience of other people, and certainly not to the point of silencing that person.

[wildeyed]

58. Probably right about that.

I have so-called liberal friends who are comfortable around blacks in a group as long as whites are the majority. If the demographics change and they become part of the minority, they get nervous.

[rzemanfl]

59. Excellent observation. It relates to Obama's point about the

"immigrant experience" our grandparents and to a lesser extent our parents were called Bohaks, Pollacks, Dagos, Micks, Krauts, etc. those labels went away and were replaced by....nothing.

[BklynChick]

61. I agree with you.

[WDIM]

64. Great point!

thanks for the post.

and I can tell by some other posts White people really don't like being stereotyped by other races either even though we whites do it all the time. Typical white America.

[Window]

67. LOL! Years ago, before the word black was used, it was Negro.

When the media was asked to stop using Negro (before black became the definition of choice) it was:

"Suspect was 5'11 wearing a white shirt, white tennis shoes, black baseball cap seen running from the scene with an Afro comb in the back pocket of his bluejeans."

:rofl:

[calico1]

68. I won't comment on Rev Wright but you do raise

some important points...things that I have noticed all my adult and even young adult life. And that is that people of color tend to be identified by their color. For example, if two scraggly looking men hold up a convenience store and they happen to be Black or Hispanic they tend to be identified that way..."two scraggly looking latino men" Wheras if they are white they are just "scraggly."

[RichardRay]

69. 100% on the button

No question about it.

[DevonRex]

72. You're right.

Just goes to show...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

74. Partly true...Usually when people talk about "white people"

it's to talk about injustice, prejudice, cruelty, racism, and a host of other negative qualities. It's not hard to understand why. The evils of slavery did not limit themselves to captivity and forced labor on plantations, and have, sadly, long outlived the government-sanctioned practice in this country.

But when was the last time you heard someone talk about Cal Ripken Jr, the famous white baseball player, or Joe Pass, the great white jazz guitarist? What about Amelia Earhart, the first white woman to cross the Atlantic? And have you ever noticed, when speaking of famous women, we tend to include their first names, as if it were important to distinguish their gender? Why do we talk about Georgia O'Keeffe, Sarah Caldwell, and Shirley Chisholm when we don't require first names for Renoir, Ellington, or Obama? Of course, there are a few people who manage to be a class of their own: Cher, Iman, Fabio, Enya, Prince.

Interestingly, the honor bestowed upon the first American-born saint, Elizabeth Seton, is not embellished with race or gender qualifiers. It makes me wonder if white, black, male, or female will be applied to the next American-born saint.

As long as we feel the need to isolate ourselves in our various genders and races, why not take it further still? When are we going to have blond history month?

[Zookeeper]

75. Ummm. I'm from Detroit. I'm used to being "a white person." n/t

[JuniperLea]

76. I don't think we should be using skin color at all in conversations

Until we all think of ourselves and others as human beings first, we'll never rid ourselves of racism.

I don't refer to my neighbor Rose and my BLACK neighbor Rose. I don't refer to my assistant as my Black assistant Betty... I don't refer to my receptionist as my Latina receptionist, Lucille. What's the point? Why would that be necessary?

[Zookeeper]

78. I agree. And you reminded me of an older woman I knew...

when I was a kid. She was of German descent and always referred to other people by their national origin, unless they were also "Germans." She'd say, "There is this little POLISH girl at work." or "..that ITALIAN (Irish/Belgian/Swede/whatever) fixed my car." I don't think that was entirely uncommon in her place and time.

People will always find a way to separate themselves from "others," although race is a particularly painful way to do it.

[JuniperLea]

80. My mother in law was like that...

It was the German across the street... and the (derogatory term for a Jewish person deleted) on the corner. Like John McCain thinking it's ok to use the term "Gook". Maybe they are of a different generation, maybe their racism (and it IS racism) is UNDERSTANDABLE... however, it is never ACCEPTABLE. My mother in law was a beautiful woman, inside and out. I'm glad she had the sense NOT to use those terms where other people besides family would hear. My kids understood this too. We'd talk about it after.

My daughter had a mad crush on my son's band mate, who was Black and White. My horribly racist aunt made a comment about another cousin who was marrying a Black man... and my daughter cringed. She loves her aunt, but this made her mad as hell... we talked about it, agreed it wasn't acceptable, and moved on. I told my daughter NOT to let what her great aunt said make any difference in the way she felt about this young man. She doesn't have to answer to anyone. I had the opportunity to set my aunt straight at a family reunion picnic... another racial slur... and my prompt attention to respond to my uber Christian, yet racist aunt, that Jesus never taught us to hate anyone. Not even a sinner. We aren't supposed to hate anyone. Her daughter, my cousin, is a Christian missionary... weird. You have to remind people sometimes.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

77. Good point, but it's never bothered me..my ingamename is Chalkstick :)

[shadowknows69]

79. Spot on

[MzShellG]

81. You are on point with your theory....

A lot of white people see themselves as the majority, real Americans, blue blooded...Being referred to as anything else is uncivilized to some of them. Black people,in general, are so used to being referred to as second class citizens for so long that some call each other the n-word. The issue of race needs to be addressed on a national and perhaps global scale. Who has the chutzpuh to initiate this? Hillary and/or McCain needs to touch on this subject as well if they plan to be president to the entire country.

[suston96]

82. Actually, we may all have come from East Africa......

http://www.amonhotep.com/2002/realeve.html

.....or Google: The Real Eve

The greatest journey ever undertaken left behind a trail of unanswered questions: How did our species arise and spread around the globe to become the most dominant creature on the planet? Part of the answer came two decades ago, when scientists stunned the world with the finding, based on genetic research, that all humans alive today can claim as a common ancestor a woman who lived in Africa some 150,000 years ago ? dubbed, inevitably, "Eve." But while the notion of an African origin of the human family has grown to be accepted by most scientists, the details of how Eve's ancestors swept out of Africa to populate the rest of the world have remained murky.

The Discovery channel production is fascinating.

[loyalsister]

83. Exactly!

I have seen this before.
I had an instance to see my family "discover" that they were white. Someone pointed out that it was unusual to see that "white woman hanging around" in reference to an aunt who was one half of an interracial marriage.
Whoever was paying attention had to notice that "we" were white. I think it jarred some people. White people don't think of themselves as white.
The unchallenged American standard that is still on the books is that white people are just people, it's everyone else who is "different."

[WinkyDink]

84. Interesting insight.

[wildflowergardener]

85. how you think of someone different than you.

Could this partly be that maybe people think or talk about a person who is a different race than they are by by their color, regardless of what race they are?

For example, a white person might not describe another person they know as white - most likely would not, but would describe a person of another race as black, or Asian or whatever they are.

I'm white. If you are black, how do you describe people of other races? When you describe a white person, do you describe them as white?

I see the sense of describing a person in the news by their race - only if it is terms of a person who is "at large" that is, if they are trying to describe someone they are still trying to catch and it might help identify them - in that case it makes sense - but they should do that for all races not just one.

I am sure what you say is true, but I'm not sure if it's just a white thing or something everyone does of people who are different than them at first before they get to know them. It might not be something they say out loud, but might certainly be in their thoughts.

I would think race would probably be one of the easiest ways to describe someone - that is it doesn't take a lot of thought or time to see what race a person is - if a person was asked what someone looked like - it may be the first thing that comes to mind.

Editing to add: I would say that lumping all white people together is just as bad as lumping all black people together - like all of them are the same - which of course they are not.

Meg