What Passportgate really means: MSM not sophisticated enough to handle the Wright story.

[grantcart]

I have to agree with some of the Clinton folks, and that is so painful. The hysterical embracing of the passport story is funny.

"When did the clerk see it, who knew it and what did Condi Rice look like when she heard about it".

I could be wrong but I don't think so. For one reason I have supervised 450,000 travel document files when I worked on refugee resettlement. Unless there is some controversy about the parents or the birth the basic information is, well biological.When, where, hair color and weight, SSN, addresses. It was my signature that finalized the new travel document so I saw a few files.

Now a visa application would have more information, a lot more information. Why are you coming? And then there would be the medical questions - what kind of STDs has the person had. But a passport file doesn't have this. When they talk about counselor files that is something that the embassy would keep for citizens in country.

What this really shows is that the news departments have been dying to get off the Wright story. They simply do not have the capacity to engage in a meaningful discussion of the issues that are so sophistcated and nuanced. They cannot even figure out who to put on for their experts' panel so that they have 'balance'. (Liberation theology? Pentacostal? Do we need a secularist? Is there a civil rights angle? Do we have to include a 'Biblical expert?' a rightwing radio nut?)

Poor Roland Martin seems to be the only guy in the entire mass media who bothered to even listen to an entire sermon of Rev. Wright.

And he is the only one that didn't have to - he got it from the get go. Taking one snippet of a sermon out is like taking only the events of Good Friday out of the Christian story and then saying that "that is all you need to know about the Christian story".

The mad rush for the media to rush to grab every little detail on this non story is simply a confession that sorry Barack we just can't keep up with your challenge - its too hard. How happy they are to call back and forth and get another date. And the real stories, the stories that made Rev. Wright so bitter and angry in the first place like the 5th anniversary of an unnecessary war - get ignored. This should last 3 days, wonder what it will be on Monday?



Adding on edit: There was a more substantive reason for the Bush administration to want to read the Clinton file - they wanted to document specifically when he was in communist countries and tie him to certain anti-war demonstrations.

[grasswire]

1. I agree they are HAPPY to be off the race discussion.

They jumped like bunnies today, on what is really a rather minor story. They were near hysteria trying to make talk up on the spot -- trying to ginn it up.

This is working very well for Obama. Just when he made that horrible gaffe about "typical white person" this comes along to steal the news.

That's the kind of luck Karl Rove always had.

[DJ13]

2. they are HAPPY to be off the race discussion.

We should ALL be happy they are off the race discussion.

[Drachasor]

12. I'm only happy they are off it because they stink at handling information and discussion

Information/discussion of any decent depth that has any value.

[grantcart]

3. It reminded me of "Broadcast News" when they were feeding the anchor the news

and Albert Brooks had to break himself from his meltdown and watch the TV take his information in a surrealist mind melt.

[KittyWampus]

28. this is not a minor story. You have a problem if you don't think this is serious.

And the talking heads I heard tonight all said that "terrible gaffe" was bullshit.

BECAUSE IT WAS.

You have gone down the fucking rabbithole.

Wake up. Clinton is not worth being this twisted.

[FrenchieCat]

48. Yes......"this is working Well for Obama".....he's lucky, like Ferraro would say....

OBama's blessed that his pastor was caricaturized and Wright's 36 years of service were trashed, his church demonized, and he was treated like 1/5 of a man.....all in the name of bringing Obama down via guilt by association.

I'm sure that they are both jumping with glee.

That's really sick to me.....this train of thought running through this thread.

[Bullet1987]

4. Yea...3 breaches of security in the State Dept. is nothing

You people are sickening.

[grantcart]

6. Sickening? Isn't that a bit much

I am telling you for 10 years I saw hundreds of thousands of these files and they don't contain anything personal. It is the information contained in a passport application plus details of your travels.

It doesn't contain sensitive informatino unless where you have been travelling to a sensitive location.

Now imagine that your out of a junior college and you could peak at somebody famous's file. Yes it is a technical breach of security. So is making out in the lounge after hours - I did that a couple of times to.

The real point of the OP however is that they are not running to this story they are running from the Wright story.

Now if you have a thoughtful response I would be interested but "sickening?"

[stillcool]

14. I'm not understanding something...

If in 1992 there was a Special Prosecutor appointed because George Bush did the same thing to Bill Clinton, how is that not a 'big deal'. Why is breaching security three times not a 'big deal'.
If government workers access information because they are snoopy they can be fired because it's against the rules of the State Department. If they disseminate the information it's a misdemeanor, however if they continue it's a felony. Now considering the political implications why is this not a big deal?

[Cha]

15. grant isn't a "you people" Bullet..he's

an amazing Obama supporter now.

[K Gardner]

20. Grant is one of us. And he's making a point I think that is valid. He's not

lessening the impact of this story, but rather telling the truth about the ABHORENT way Wright has been handled.

Have you noticed the looks on the faces of these people when some of the..e rr.. guests start spewing hate and fighting amongst each other? Its getting away from them.. they're bombarded with letters.. its ripping the country apart, yes it is.. and they are THRILLED to get off it. Believe me, they'll plumb Passportgate to its very depths and refuse to talk about Wright in any substantive way. And by the time PPG is over, they'll find another story du jour.. its all good for us. :hi:

[Coexist]

5. what information would be in a digital passport file?

[grantcart]

8. The standard information in a passport application plus updates on travel

I imagine that they would have basic travel information if they assisted Obama because he was a Senator in getting Visas, and a record of what countries he went to.

It would not have intelligence information of who he met or anything like that.

[Coexist]

10. would it have the Visa info you mentioned above?

Biden is calling for and investigation

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/20/obama.passport/index.html

Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, issued a statement late Thursday.

"I am deeply troubled that State Department contract employees sought access to Sen. Barack Obama's passport files. Firing or disciplining those responsible is an important first step. But we need to understand why these employees had access to this information in the first place, why they sought the information, and why it took over two months for this matter to come to light. I urge the Secretary of State to promptly refer this matter to the State Department Inspector General for investigation."

[grantcart]

11. No a visa application would be when somebody from another country applies

to visit here. Then there is a huge amount of information and counselor interviews, x-rays, vd tests.

[Exilednight]

7. Your trivializing the information that the State Department keeps......

depending on who the person is, their line of work, or the purpose of their visit, many people are debriefed by the State Department upon their return. Reporters are often the subject of State Department debriefings when returning from overseas.

Don't trivialize what you do not know. You'd be surprised how much information they keep.

A sitting Senator with extensive overseas travel who happens to be running for President and happened to have an Islamic father and traveled extensively to countries that are primarily Islamic?

[grantcart]

9. Those are not kept in passport files.

Those files are kept either in Embassy counselor files or in State Department intelligence files. Passport files have information related to issuing the passport and visa assistance.

[Exilednight]

13. It's like you noted with the Clinton files.........

maybe someone is looking at Obama's travel history to tie him to activities while he was in the country.

[grantcart]

19. Well the fact that there were three different peaks also undermines

a conspiracy angle. If the Clinton operative were to take it wouldn't the state department official take it and not some lowly state department contractors.

[Exilednight]

22. No, low level officials are easy to get rid of dismiss. Every conspiracy needs a pansy..........

I also do not want to imply that it was Clinton who did this. There are many unknown facts. Just because this woman was appointed an ambassador by Bill doesn't mean she was doing the work of Hillary. I won't dismiss the idea, but we also must remember that she also has republican ties since dubya kept her on.

[grantcart]

33. My point was if it was a real breach then it would be a single time and they

would simply copy the file. They may have done so. The fact that it was done 3 times kind of indicates that it was more of a curious peak. Even if the files have been copied I would bet that these three will be just regular guys who got curious.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

37. Didnt they go twice into Watergate?

Just regular guys who got curious.

[Exilednight]

46. Yeah, it was so nice breaking in the first time they decided to do it again. n/t

[Exilednight]

38. That would depend on what they were looking for, it appears that these files hold more.........

than you believe, as being reported from other news sources. If there's nothing there, then this story will die in a couple days. A story is only as good as its motive, if there's no motive then there is no story.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

35. I think you meant "patsy."

:rofl:

[Exilednight]

44. yep, but I will not change it.

[stillcool]

18. According to the reporting...

all kinds of information can be garnered through these files, including access to all information kept by consulars in other countries. It did not seem like trivial information to me.

[grantcart]

24. I could be wrong but I provided support services for the US embassy.

The passport files are for passports. The people are speculating, I believe, about other types of files that would not be connected to issuing a passport.

The subcontractors they hired were part of the effort to eliminate the backlog of passport applications they had.

[KittyWampus]

30. You do NOT work at State. So stop pretending you know. Your knowledge is limited

so kindly either admit or clam up.

Because YOU DO NOT KNOW.

If you worked at State and have seen Senators' passport files, please let us know. Otherwise, you are talking out your arse.

[EFerrari]

16. No. It means Obama is being stalked and intimidated.

It doesn't matter what anonymous posters to a discussion board write.

It matters that Obama's file was breached three times and for six weeks, he wasn't informed.

[grantcart]

29. And we will find out if it was intended or not but that really was only

half of my point. The more important point is that they are glad to get off the Wrigth story because it was too sophisticated for them.

[EFerrari]

31. Oh, I agree with that point. They can't handle the truth.

lol

:)

[Tatiana]

17. But if I'm not mistaken, these files have Visa information as well.

When I traveled to South America, because of the length of the time I was visiting, I had to have a visa. And the visa application had a LOT of my personal information, including some medical information (vaccinations, letter certifying I was tested for TB), monthly income my profession, my husband's profession, and my complete itinerary including the cities I was visiting and my family's addresses with whom I would reside.

Nothing evil on its face, but if they are digging; trying to retrace Obama's steps in the places he's traveled, maybe locate some family members who don't want to be in the public eye, then this is absolutely reprehensible.

And they WERE looking for something. I don't think for one second it was only Obama or that passport files are the only ones that have been breached.

[grantcart]

21. How would our state department get visa files for visa applications you are filling out

for another governemnt. If you were applying for a visa in Argentina then Argentina would have the information not the US State Department.



You may be right that they had a look, but it wouldn't have been by these three subcontractors.

The subcontractors were added last year to help clear up the passport log jam.

[Exilednight]

25. Wrong, if I want to visit Cuba, which reporters can do, they must also provide a copy of the........

visa request to the State Department. Same with North Korea, Iran, and most of Africa.

[Tatiana]

32. You don't think the host country shares the info w/ the American consular office?

Of course they do. Now that everything is electronic, it would not be surprising for that info to be fed through the American consulate to a database at State.

They just want to make sure we're not aiding and abetting terrorists.

/sarcasm

What were the subcontractors looking at, then, that wasn't already public information?

[Exilednight]

42. It's like I stated before, it depends on where you're going, who you're seeing, how long......

you're staying, what part of the country you're visiting, etc, etc, etc.....

If you apply for a visa that is the State Department watch list, you are required to turn a copy of the visa application over to the State Department. It helps decide if you need to be debriefed when you return. There are are some countries you can visit without a visa and you are still required to notify the State Department about your travel.

It just depends on the status of the country with the State Department.

I'm curious to know what computers were exactly hacked, and exactly what information was in them. My fear is, we may never know.

[K Gardner]

23. That was what I was wondering, Tatiana.. if there was access to files other than

passport files. Gads, who knows what kind of crap is on computers about any of us, linked through the US Gov systems..

[grantcart]

26. could be but really doubt it - it would in fact be against the law.

[K Gardner]

27. Ah, got it.. ok and thanks again, Grant, for all the info !

[grantcart]

43. I just thought of the funniest thing

This not only wiped the Wright story off the air it also wiped their MI/FL issue off the air. She was getting pretty good press with that lol.


Can you imagine what is going on at Clinton hdqts lol there is nothing they can do lol

[FrenchieCat]

49. That's not funny, that's long overdue. This wasn't a fucking story

to begin with. Just taking a progressive pastor and turning him into a clown by slicing and dicing this and that and running in a loop for days. Nope. not funny.

[Tatiana]

39. Whatever information you have to submit on a visa application could be in the State Dept's files.

Different countries ask for different things. But if you are traveling to one of the "dangerous" places, the information requested is way more detailed and personal (including employment, medical, and family) than if you were just going to Mexico. AND, someone from State can interview you about your travels. This happened to a friend of mine once she returned to the U.S.

[phrigndumass]

34. Towards the end of Countdown tonight, KO reported ...

... that a former ambassador appointed by President Clinton was working in that division of the State Department the first two times the passport files were breached. Trying to remember name ... Maura, last name begins with an L. This piece of information was discovered by David Schuster.

So, although quite weak, there does appear to be a tie between the passport files and the Clinton campaign.

It was about 50 minutes into the show. Did anybody else see this?

[grantcart]

40. Yes there is another thread

but it weakens the allegations not strengthens them. If they had her they would not need entry level sub contractors to do it


And they would make a single copy and not go in three times.

[phrigndumass]

41. makes sense

:hi:

[blonndee]

36. I agree the mad rush to tie this to Clinton by SOME people is silly,

at least right now, and it actually makes those who are doing it look hypocritical, since Obama supporters (such as myself) have been complaining about the "guilt by association" opposition tactic of late.

BUT this is a big story because it happened several times over a period of several months and was not reported properly, apparently. There may be some "there" there, but I'm having a really hard time realistically thinking that it had much to do with Clinton. At the VERY least, it's way too early to start jumping to wild conclusions. That's not fair, first of all, and secondly, it could end up biting those people in the butt if it turns out to be untrue. Again, the story is important and I also take issue with those who, for political reasons, insist that it's no big deal.

I also hope that you're right--that the corpmedia wants to move on. I think I disagree that they "want" to move on, though. Since when do most of the media whores care about nuance and sophistication? :)

[grantcart]

45. The other thing that is funny is that the Clinton's were starting to make

some traction about FL and MI. This story not only wiped Wrigth off the boards it also wiped that story off the boards.

God I would love to be a fly on the wall in their hdqtrs tonight lol

[FrenchieCat]

47. Don't speak so soon......

You've already said more than enough, none which mirror my sentiments on this.

I don't have enough information to determine what, who and why on this passport story....

But I don't jump with glee at anything in this campaign. All of it is sad to me. The only good point about it is the candidate that I support.

[grantcart]

50. I understand that you may be suspicious about the passport breach

but are you also saying that you do not agree with the basic premise of the original OP - (which got a little lost in the thread):

Namely; that the media was in a bloodlust for a new story because the challenge of handling the sermons from Rev. Wright as a means to understand the complexity of the problems of race was too great for them? That the challenge of Obama's speech was too much of a challenge for them to keep up with?

[FrenchieCat]

51. I'm saying that sometimes it is best to watch and to listen......

when the information is not enough to come up with a conclusion, sometimes it is better not to force one or get caught up in speculation. We are all too smart for our own good sometimes.....but certainly facts are needed.

But after seeing this campaign and what people are willing to make hay to a point that becomes destructive to actual people's live, I'm not going to start speculating in the affirmative for an opposing campaign that has made a big deal out of a "snub", or like today.....the use of the word "typical". These are not people that I have a lot of admiration for, and although I won't be like them, I ain't coming to speculate getting them out of something that I know not enough about.

[grantcart]

52. The point was really that the media is loving this because they can't handle the

deeper issues that Obama is throwing at them.

[FrenchieCat]

53. No....they weren't doing shit with those issues anyway........

They were still talking like the dumbfucks that they are.

Better they talk about stuff like Passports than to continue to attempt to tear Obama down via the proxi of Rev. Wright.

[grantcart]

54. That was my point that regardless of the valildity of the charges the fact that they

ran to another story so fast showed how the story intimidated them

only funny little Roland Martin got it at all