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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:11 AM
Original message
HRC supporters short term memory problems.
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 10:36 AM by CitizenRob
Since some of you are suddenly claiming she didn't endorse McCain at least TWICE over Obama here are two videos of TWO different occasions of her doing exactly that:

http://www.liberaltimes.com/?p=83">Click here to watch videos


SHAME on Hillary. What if her supporters BELIEVE her assertion and switch to McCain instead of Obama?
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islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. knowing and acknowledging are two very different things....
i doubt that many hillary-supporters will hit the link....
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I know, facts only hurt them.
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HarveyBrooks Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Facts dont hurt this Hillary supporter.
I'm sorry but McCain has more experience than Obama. Thats a fact.
I sure as hell wouldn't vote for him because of it though.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. And Obama has more experience than Clinton. 11 years to 9.
:shrug:
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HarveyBrooks Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. Yep.
Thats a fact too.
And he has every right to point that out.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Bush has more experience than Obama too. She should endorse him and his policies.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. Of course not, you just ignore facts so they can't hurt.
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HarveyBrooks Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Please explain
What facts am I ignoring?
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PatGund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. Understandable
Facts seem to have a pro-Obama slant you see.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. BO supporters have chronic comprehension problems
if they conclude that constitutes an endorsement.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. "I have experience, McCain has experience, Obama has a speech from 2002"
Seriously? That's not an endorsement over Obama?
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Duh...no.
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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
37. I'd call it something else
A put-down. A slam. A snarky remark. And, yes, the B-word
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Endorsement, no - but VALIDATING and VALUING McCain's experience OVER Obama's yes?
McCain is actually NOT SO HOT on foreign policy over the years. Plus, he nearly broke down several times during the Vietnam reconciliation hearings and in his book admitted that the only way he got through those was Kerry's leadership on the issue and his friendship toward McCain who was falling apart emotionally throughout that time period.

Read his book.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I read his books. Both of them. Then I picked a candidate.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. You read both of McCain's books to pick your Dem candidate?
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 10:32 AM by blm
.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. No, Obama's.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. I was talking about McCain's book in my post and his actual experience.
.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. So, what if HRC supporters BELIEVE what she said... and switch?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. I'm with you - not a technical endorsement, but an implied one, valuewise.
,
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. That's right, that's the possible effect, unintended or otherwise,
her words could have.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. How do you define endorse? She was stating a fact about experience
You Obama supporters sure have trouble with the English language.

And, of course the double standard...when Obama praised the republicans over Clinton he was insulting the democratic party. When Obama couples Bush/Clinton/McCain, he is LYING and insulting the democratic party.

But, go ahead. Continue your irrational hate fest. It is actually kinda fun to watch--waiting to see what you will twist next.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. A fact about her questionable experience??
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. This is politics. In a race you are an advocate for yourself
OHMYGOD!
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. Maybe if you're a power hungry selfish greedy little troll.
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 10:38 AM by CitizenRob
I like my candidates to consider the party as well. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

What if an HRC supporter BELIEVES her and switches to McCain instead of Obama?
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. So why was she advocating McCain then?
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 10:54 AM by Drachasor
She lumped McCain with herself, and said Obama didn't measure up.

Think about it, she said something that could be used by McCain or the like in a commercial against Obama. She did that TWICE.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. Don't forget this one
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
9. Not again!!!!!!!!!
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Only because somebody said she didn't do it.
I felt it needed to be restated.
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Somebody said she didn't do it because she didn't do it. She made a
comparison of experience between the candidates. She was correct in stating that McCain has more experience than Obama. You can read her statement any way you want to, but in my mind that does not constitute an endorsement.


en·dorse /ɛnˈdɔrs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -dorsed, -dors·ing, noun –verb (used with object)
1. to approve, support, or sustain: to endorse a political candidate.
2. to designate oneself as payee of (a check) by signing, usually on the reverse side of the instrument.
3. to sign one's name on (a commercial document or other instrument).
4. to make over (a stated amount) to another as payee by one's endorsement.
5. to write (something) on the back of a document, paper, etc.: to endorse instructions; to endorse one's signature.
6. to acknowledge (payment) by placing one's signature on a bill, draft, etc.
–noun
7. Heraldry. a narrow pale, about one quarter the usual width and usually repeated several times.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. SHAME ON HILLARY: What if her supporters BELIEVE her and switch to McCain instead of Obama?
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Arkansas Granny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. The only people who have seen this as an endorsement of McCain
seem to be Obama supporters. I doubt that anyone will be swayed to vote for McCain based on that statement.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Then why even make it?
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DemzRock Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
10. LOL! This again? She said he had experience. Do you deny that?
It's not an endorsement. It's a statement of fact. McCain has a lot of experience. Hillary has some. Obama only has a little.

Just facts.

But Some Obama supporters don't like truth or reality. They prefer fantasy speeches.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Call me when she says, "I hereby endorse Senator McCain for President."

I won't hold my breath.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. yes, I do deny it. Bad experience is still BAD experience.
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DemzRock Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. And who is to say BO's tiny little bit of experience is so great?
He can have a tiny little bit of experience and can be just as much a "bad experience." Did he not vote for war funding? Did he not vote "present," instead of taking a real stand on a lot of things? His tiny little bit of experience is not a shining beacon, sorry.

She was just making a point that BO is trying to win the presidency on a speech or two.

Maybe it's good he has little experience. Maybe it's bad.

If he gets elected, we shall see.



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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. He has enough experience not to endorse his bigger enemy over his lesser enemy.
Unlike Clinton who has endorsed McCain over the Dem front runner.

I know it's hard to believe that anybody would actually BELIEVE Hillary Clinton, but let's say somebody DID believe her and DID switch their support to the "more experienced" McCain come November.

WHAT?! Hillary is a reputable candidate?! And people might actually BELIEVE what she says when she endorses McCain over Obama?! I know, it's crazy. But all the "reality means nothing" HRC supporters on here tell me it's more likely than unlikely.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. When my son was five years old, he would repeat demonstrably untrue things over and over ...
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 10:59 AM by 11 Bravo
assuming, I would imagine, that in his intense desire, he could make it so. Were you also a picky eater and difficult to toilet train?
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Yes, they say children are a reflection of their parents.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-22-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #34
46. And what about the TRUE stuff - like the Clintons decades of protecting BushInc?
THAT makes Clintons more experienced in furthering the global fascist agenda than any other Democrat, and THAT is what you support whether you admit it or not.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. You think deep-sixing BCCI matters throughout the 90s was a show of good experience
for Clintons?

How did that work out for this country in the long run?
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. BCCI? what's that?
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 01:17 PM by CitizenRob
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. It's what LED to Bush2, 9-11, this Iraq war, and soon to be war with Iran. That's all.
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 01:32 PM by blm
BCCI was the biggest financial conduit for global terror networks and GHWBush used it for his own operations over the years and Jackson Stephens was the man who BROUGHT that bank into this country for Poppy.

He also happened to have been the man who bankrolled the Clintons careers in Arkansas and underwrote Bill's primary campaign in 92 right when Bushies expected to be impeached in 93 if he won ofice again. The BCCI report was due to be released in Dec 1992.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. So what is the tie in to the Clintons?
And do you have links on this?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. BCCI matters were deep-sixed throughout the 90s. Bill doesn't even mention one word
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 04:32 PM by blm
of it in his entire book, though he was handed the BCCI report INCLUDING The list of outstanding matters that needed further examination and accountability.

This is serious stuff if you are inclined to jump into it.
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

Here's the end of the report's list of outstanding matters - you think any of this stuff fully examined and revealed could have made a difference the last 15 years?


APPENDICES


Matters For Further Investigation


There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:

1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.

2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.

3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.

4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al-Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.

5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.

6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.

7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.

8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.

9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.

10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.

11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.

12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.

13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.

14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.

15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.

17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.

18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.

19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.

20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
22. They just call it..."politics"
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-22-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
47. Beyond that, when you endorse a member of the other party.
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