Rabid Obama supporter here! Bill Clinton's NC comments were nothing at all!

[Bonobo]

I want Obama supporters to stop acting like the other side.

Stretching Bill's comment that a Hillary Vs McCain race would be "Two people who love America" and implying that that means that Clinton is saying that "Obama doesn't love America" (simply by excluding Obama from the statement) IS TOTALLY FUCKING SILLY.

Please stop acting like the ones we dislike, fellow Obama supporters.

This is just silly.

[bicentennial_baby]

1. It's the latter part of the quote that bothers me

[Debi]

3. What other stuff....Bill?

:shrug:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

28. without "all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

Here's what Slick Willie said:

"I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interest of this country," said the former president. "And people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

In the wake of controversy over comments made by Barack Obama's former minister, Clinton's comments could be seen as an effort to draw attention to the issue of patriotism in a state with a high population of veterans.

...The former president made the comments to less than 80 audience members at an invite-only event focused on veterans issues.


link http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/21/794670.aspx

[Debi]

44. Thank you, I read the quote, my question was rhetorical

but I get it - I also see his comments talking about a contest between two white candidates 'stuff' could be race as well as patriotism.

Why Bill Clinton thinks the RNC and McCain would be any LESS tough on Hillary Clinton is a mystery to me. It will be a mud bath no matter who is on the ticket.

[housewolf]

52. The question is... does he only think that would happen this year if Hillary is the Dem nominee?

Is he implying somehow that Obama doesn't love America and is devoted to the interests of the country?

Taken on its face, that statement disses all of this year and recent Dem candidates, it seems to me.

[kennetha]

59. It doesn't diss the CANDIDATES

It disses our POLITICS. The presumption is that the candidates love our country and have honest disagreement about the issues, but our politics almost always focuses on CRAP that won't help the people really think through the real issues.

Did you just crawl out of bed yesterday and start observing American politics?????

[housewolf]

108. It's the CONTEXT that matters

Taken by themselves, thosse words appear to be benign. But there were paragraphs before that one and paragraphs after that one would provide some sense of meaning about the comment. It's the context that provides meaning to words, not the words themselves.

Ex. take the word "red". Whatever is before or after that word gives it its meaning. By itself it indicates a coler. Followed by "lobster" it means a restaurant. Followed by "china" it means something else. Followed by "faced" it means something else.

What I want to know is the context in which Bill said those words so that I can have a better understanding of them, and I HOPE that they don't mean what I'm afraid they do.


As for this comment: "Did you just crawl out of bed yesterday and start observing American politics?????", this is insulting, unnecessary, uncivil and flame-baiting. You don't know me or anything about me. You have no call to be so insulting.

[kennetha]

111. Sorry you feel insulted

But the presumption that Bill Clinton intended, when not even mentioning OBama at all, to somehow impugn Obama's patriotism is so ABSURD so DESPERATE and SO TYPICAL of so many Obama supporters these days that I am REALLY TIRED of it. I am so TIRED not of the man but of his supporters that I'm half tempted not to vote in the November election, just so I won't have to be party to so much self-righteous claptrap for next four years.

I say this as a person who really does admire Obama and am moved by his narrative and think that he might just have the capacity to grow into a capable president if he gets the office (for which I don't believe he is currently near ready). But I tell you in all frankness, I can hardly abide many of his supporters anymore.

[housewolf]

114. Apology accepted

But I just gotta say, in politics, often what a politician omits says more than whata he/she includes and, as I said, any of us who thinks that we know what Bill Clinton meant by those words without knowing whata came before or after them, the context in which he said them, we're all making up what they mean - without that context, none of us knows what he was was saying.

And for sure, something that we Dems are excellent at is making up for ourselves what someones words mean.

[FARAFIELD]

2. Um yeah

I live in NC and a few people talked about it already, which means the perception is out there, probably too late no matter what we think

[uponit7771]

4. Did you hear the REST of what he said or are you being sarcastic? Thx in advance

[Bonobo]

6. What was the rest? And no, I am not being sarcastic. nt

[uponit7771]

13. please google it, I'm sure it's out there now...at the LEAST Bill has some explaining to do and I...

...like Bill C...I just don't like what this has turned him and HRC into..

My heart hurts for them

[polichick]

5. You're telling US to stop acting like the ones we dislike???

Tell that to your candidate and her husband.

[Bonobo]

9. My candidate is Obama. Can you fucking read?

[polichick]

16. And you think what Bill Clinton implied is fine?? Some supporter!

[cali]

56. bonobo is a great Obama supporter so cut the crap

you think bill is implying something and then you copy him. Just because he doesn't agree with YOU on this, doesn't give you the right to fucking question who he supports.

[polichick]

80. But he has the right to tell others how to react to Clinton - and you have the right...

...to preach at people endlessly??? As I've told you before ~ fuck off.

[cali]

87. tough shit,

I'll address whoever I want. Don't like it, dearie? Put me on ignore. Oh and go cheney yourself along the way- continuously.

[K Gardner]

19. Bonobo is on our side :-) I think there is easily a way to interpret

Bill's words to read them as nothing. I think there is easily a way to interpret them to be nefarious and underhanded.

Personally, I can't get inside his head so I don't know what he was thinking. I'm comparing this, at this point, to WhiteGrannyGate. I don't think Obama should be crucified for that, and perhaps Bill shouldn't be for this. I just don't know but am giving him the UNDESERVED benefit of my doubt.

[polichick]

27. Bill is just too calulating for me to believe he didn't mean it the ugly way.

[sudopod]

25. Bonobo is about as hardcore an Obama person as you can be

If he's saying "whoa", we'd do well to listen.

[polichick]

32. Do what you want, but I'm not fooled by Bill Clinton...

I worked both of his campaigns and know that he doesn't do this stuff accidentally.

[TwilightGardener]

37. Exactly. That was "forget the unpatriotic black guy, let's get down

to the general election between two equal and patriotic whities, no distractions".

[polichick]

39. You got it - ugly stuff!

[Ichingcarpenter]

7. This has happened too many times

sorry you're wrong it not silly,

[TwilightGardener]

8. Why is he even talking about a Clinton/McCain race? And two

people who love America--who DOESN'T love America? And what about "the other stuff"?

[leftofcool]

12. Monica

is the other stuff.........as in a race between Clinton and McCain and Monica would not be brought up

[TwilightGardener]

23. LOL! This is ABSURD!

[Adelante]

36. Sure

Monica would not be brought up. Good luck with that.

[uponit7771]

22. right!!!

[TahitiNut]

105. Well, leave it to Bill to fail to distinguish between "loving" America and ...

... "fucking" America. I guess he doesn't foresee having "foreign relations" with that woman nation.

[SoCalDem]

10. two words

"code speak"..

[bunnies]

11. Im personally sick and tired of them singing McCains praises.

And its pretty bad that it happens so often that its now seen as no big deal.

[K Gardner]

24. Well, this is the real thing, to me. That again they're praising McCain.

[TwilightGardener]

26. Yeah, McCain is great, McCain loves his country, McCain will

fight only on the issues...unlike that OTHER guy you might be thinking of voting for...

[Ichingcarpenter]

31. McCain supports Torture and Bill yesterday said McCain

was against torture. LIE are lies .

[K Gardner]

47. OK.. point taken ..it certainly does have implications :-)

[VolcanoJen]

92. Exactly.

Can anyone honestly remember a Democratic Presidential Primary where one of the Democratic candidates and surrogates repeatedly sing the praises of the Republican nominee?

For a lot of Dems I know, Hillary "endorsing" McCain was the event that made them jump off the Clinton train.

[ruggerson]

14. thanks Bonobo, you willl be attacked for not adhering to rigid partisan lines

but it is very commendable that you see this for what it is.

[Bonobo]

82. Could you remind me why I might give a fuck? I seem to have forgotten... nt

[grantcart]

15. explanation: Richardson endorsement is driving them crazy

Source: MSNBC

Bill Clinton has made remarks that seem to undermine Senator Obama's patriotism.

The remarks which include a statement to the effect that a "Clinton-McCain raise would be between two people who love the country without all of this other stuff" (paraphrase)

Todd was asked when he stopped by MSNBC and they were reading the excerpt to him.

He said that the full text was not good and a 'terrible read'. He could not figure out what Clinton was saying that would be good for his wife's campaign.

When Chuck Todd says straight out that he has read the entire thing and it doesn't read well its probably safe to assume that in fact
it isn't going to read well

[Yes We Did]

17. I don't dislike Hillary supporters.

I just dislike Hillary. Her supporters, well, what are you going to do. In another month or so they will come along, or they will be gone from DU. Either way... not worrying me.

[juajen]

98. Stick it in your ear! It would take more than you have to make

me leave DU, and that goes for a lot of other Hillary supporters. I do expect a large drop in Obama supporters, however. We shall see.

In the meantime, you might get better acquainted with this board before you make declarations like that.

[crispini]

18. Full quote here

"I think it'd be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who love this country, who were devoted to the interest of the country, and people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues. instead of all this other stuff which always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

Do you still have the same opinion?

[Beacool]

35. What's wrong with that quote?

I'm sooooo sick and tired of everyone having to walk on eggs because, God forbid, that anything be misconstrued as racist. He doesn't even mention Obama!!!!!!

[hfojvt]

48. What does it mean?

What is the 'other stuff'? You are absolutely sure he wasn't saying McCain loves his country at the same time he was implying that maybe Obama, or his minister, don't?

[Eric J in MN]

53. Swift Boat verterans are "other stuff."

The 1992 attacks on Bill Clinton for having visited the Soviet Union are "other stuff."

The 1992 attacks on Bill Clinton for having organized an anti-war teach-in at Oxford is "other stuff."

[kennetha]

54. Gosh

Where have you been the last, oh, 40 or so years in politics? Where were you during the last election?

Do you remember what our political campaigns have been ABOUT? Whether Michael Dukakis was a "card-carrying member of the ACLU," whether John Kerry faked his war wounds, whether Al Gore sighed too much during a debate, whether Jimmy Carter really consulted his daughter Amy about the most important political problems, whether a student during the sixties inhaled. And on and on and on.

This is "all this other stuff which always seems to intrude itself on our politics." If you don't think this distorts and disfigures our politics, I frankly don't know what you're doing here.

And JEEPERS Obama supporters, who claim to be for a "new" politics ought to be the first to applaud such sentiments.

Please people, get a grip. You're making the mistake of taking EVERYTHING as an implicit comment on your guy. Not everything is about your guy. When your guy is not mentioned as explicit text, that doesn't mean he's the hidden or implicit subtext.

[hfojvt]

112. gosh, but unless he mentioned any of that

people are left wondering.

"I don't know what you are doing here." "Get a grip"

You actually gave a pretty good answer, but for some reason found it necessary to include a lot of hostile and patronizing language. For the record. I am not an Obama supporter. I am an HHHer. A Hugh Hillary Hater.

It was a natural jump to think "all the other stuff" was an allusion to the supposed racial baggage that Obama is bringing with a reference to "God damn America" thrown in to boot. Particularly since right now he is running against Obama, and not McCain, and seems to have forgotten the 3rd and fourth people involved in the last few elections (Nader, Perot).

[kennetha]

38. This is the most innocuous statement imaginable

It's a generalized plea to have conversation about the issues, without either side demonizing the other side, without either side questioning the patriotism of the other, without race-baiting or false dichotomies, etc.

He says it would be great to have such a campaign. Who could possibly disagree with that thought? WHo could possibly think that in general our campaigns are like that.

The reaction to this innocuous statement by the Obamamaniacs -- and I do think some of you are truly maniacs, who need to take a break, get a grip, go walk the dog or play with you children or make love to you spouse and stop obsessing about every little perceived slight to your man -- is truly, truly depressing.

[TwilightGardener]

42. Here's the problem--Hillary is in the PRIMARY, and she's losing.

Bill is trying to find a way to contrast Hillary and Obama without saying so, and then shove Obama aside without saying so, in his audience's minds, by stating how much better it would be for the General Election if Obama wasn't there--just two patriotic Americans without all this other "stuff".

[Eric J in MN]

58. Every sentence Bill Clinton says isn't for the sake of contrasting Obama and his wife.

Bill Clinton knows about the attacks he faced in 1992 (George H. W. Bush implying he did something wrong by organizing a teach-in about the Vietnam War at Oxford).

Bill Clinton was probably thinking about the attacks his wife will face from Republicans if she's the nominee.

[TwilightGardener]

61. Yes, it is. That's the purpose of the primary.

[housewolf]

62. Yes, and on theoretical basis, I agree with him... but

the question is, does is he saying that Hillary is the only Dem this year (or in other years) who is devoted to the best interests of the country? That's the issue for me. Because if that's what he's trying to say, it really disses Obama and all other Dem candidates from this year and recent years. And it profoundly elevates McCain.

[kennetha]

67. Why is that the issue for you???

Because you take every comment about anything on the political landscape to be either explicitly or implicitly about OBama.

If Bill Clinton said. "Hillary loves this country." you'd reply, "ANd what about OBama? Doesn't he love his country too?" Well, sure but does every statement about anything really have to be read as a statement abotu OBama???

THat's what you folks seem to be suggesting. It's getting really, really tiring and dispiriting.

[housewolf]

91. Bill Clinton is more than Hillary's husband & campaign surrogate, he is also

a former Democratic president and as such, the "titular" head of the Democratic Party. He is the single most powerful member of the Democratic Party. As such, he has SOME responsibility to be supportive of ALL the Dem candidates both now and after a nominee is named.

It is appropriate for him to say that Hillary would be stronger in x, y, or z; is better qualified, etc. But it's completely inappropriate for him to dis her opponents in ways such as to bring their patriotism into question, particulary while elevating the patriotism of the Repub candidate.

It's just wrong for one Dem candidate to use Rove-playbook tactics like undermining another Dem candidate's patriotism, and I'd feel the same if it was Obama or any of the former Dem candidates trying to do it.

[kennetha]

95. But how does what he said

bring Obama's patriotism into question? I don't get it.

It's a plea that we do our politics differently. THat we stop making it so much about non-issues, that we PRESUME the patriotism of the candidates and not make that kind of issue either text or subtext of our political discourse.

[housewolf]

102. You're right... I don't have the context of what he said.

I need to know what was before and after that one particular paragraph and I don't have it yet. That's why, in my initial reply to your post, I said "is he saying that Hillary...?" because it would be an issue for me IF that's what he was saying.

There was a context around which he made that point. Anyone's words can be taken out of context and without a context, these words are benign. But you're right, I don't know that context was at this point.

[DB1]

40. It was definately a slam on Obama otherwise he would have said...

I think it is great that this year we will have no 2 people who love america no matter who the dem nominee is etc.....but why compliment McCain the war monger? Bill has lost it. IMHO

[Eric J in MN]

51. Bill Clinton is allowed to talk about the general election without...

...going out-of-his-way to be inclusive of her primary opponent.

[Eric J in MN]

50. Seems more like a reference to John Kerry being swiftboated...

...than an Obama reference.

I don't object to that quote (and I voted for Obama.)

[Bonobo]

60. I still have the opinion that some are making something of almost nothing. Yes.

[DJ13]

20. Bill was wrong, so why cant you admit it?

:shrug:

[ecstatic]

21. That's nice, but you haven't heard the whole quote. Get back to us

when you do.

[Bonobo]

109. ...

I no longer know for sure. Okay?

[Life Long Dem]

29. You see...

They will bash Obama over Wright for a whole week while we take the punches, while Obama gives a great speech, and when we pull out of that bashing and come upon an issue againist Hillary that is not even a day old Hillary supporters come crying at us yelling Quit It! Quit it they say, stop the mud slnging they say. Enough is enough they say. That is until they come up a scandal and bash Obama for another whole week.

Well sorry, but Hillary has been lying out her mouth way too many times to let a security breah in the White House go.

Bill Richardson looks good. Go Richardson!!

[loveangelc]

30. i agree.

[uponit7771]

49. The OP didn't know the whole quote, what are you both agreeing to? Thx in advance

[MattBaggins]

33. I am no rabid supporter

but if you don't realize that; that was exactly what Bill was implying, I can't really help you.

[soleft]

45. also not a rabid supporter, and I don't like what he said at all

The implication is there.

[NJSecularist]

34. I don't know what to think.

But I think it is important not to overreact and throw Bill under the bus after everything he says. He is one of us, remember?

[Vinca]

41. It's the "other stuff" part of the comment.

In this instance, the "other stuff" is a discussion of race which is long overdue in this country. That's why I love Obama. He wants to be more than a superficial head of state, he wants to make a difference. Bill Clinton seems annoyed the wife hasn't been installed already.

[Eric J in MN]

64. Bill Clinton spoke about racial issues as president.

He's not calling racial issues "other stuff" which shouldn't be discussed.

He's probably referring to the Swift Boat Veterans and that kind of "other stuff" from Republicans.

[jenmito]

43. Yes they were-here's the full quote:

"It'd be a great thing if we had an election where you had two people who love this country, who were devoted to the interest of the country and people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues instead of all this other stuff which always seems to intrude on our politics."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5195357&mesg_id=5195931

[Bonobo]

63. I have no idea what is controversial about that statement.

"all this other stuff which always seems to intrude on our politics." = sexism, racism, charges of sexism, charges of racism. All are irrelevant to issue stances. That is what he was saying, I think.

[kennetha]

70. thanks Bonobo

I think it's EXTREMELY CLEAR what he was saying. But some kind of disease is spreading among our fellow dems that we can't even hear honest statements as honest statements.

I'm frankly about ready to tune this all out.

[jenmito]

78. How could you have no idea? "between TWO people who love this country...

without "all this other stuff which always seems to intrude on our politics." Why would he be talking about sexism or charges of racism when he's campaigning for his wife???

[kennetha]

85. Well usually

there are two candidates -- a democrat and a republican. Sometimes there is a third candidate, but usually not a consequential one.

So it would be nice, wouldn't it, if the candidates and the parties and the surrogates and the media didn't spend their time on stuff like swift-boating and the pledge of allegiance and the ACLU and whether someone inhaled and on and on and on.

Were you born yesterday? How many American political campaigns have you watched up closely or been involved in? Do you not know how crappy our political discourse how demoralizing our political campaigns have been for the last, oh, forty years or so??????

Remember CLinton running against the "politics of self-destruction" the "brain-dead politics" of old?

Don't you imagine that he was more likely to be talking about that sort of thing then dissing the patriotism of Obama, whom he in fact never mentioned??

[jenmito]

115. Sorry, but he started his statement by heaping praise on MCCAIN, the REPUB., when his wife has not

won the DEM. nomination and probably won't. But all the praise he poured on McCain is an ad-in-waiting to be used by McCain against Obama. ESPECIALLY when he FOLLOWED that praise with praise of his wife and THEN following all that with, "It'd be a great thing if we had an election where you had two people who love this country, who were devoted to the interest of the country and people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues instead of all this other stuff which always seems to intrude on our politics." :wtf:

[Bonobo]

90. Look, Hillary lost the AA vote because of these "intrusions", right?

So Bill is pissed off about it and essentially saying "Let's vote on issues not the other stuff".

He knows Hillary loses in a popularity contest. She is not liked and not very likeable IMHO.

So he is trying to steer it to issues.

He never mentioned Obama and if leaving off a person's name is enough to imply something, then when I say:

"I really love hot dogs",

Mr. Hamburger would be justified in thinking that I hate him. Isn't that the same weird logic?

[jenmito]

113. Sorry, but I just saw his FULL statement and he BEGAN by praising McCain, then praising Hillary, and

THEN immediately followed that with the quote you found no problem with.

[oviedodem]

46. I agree with you on that EXCEPT they continue to talk about McCain to positive if you get my drift

[maddiejoan]

55. Thank you

here's the full quote BTW

"I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interest of this country," said the former president. "And people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."


no mention of any names (not even Hillary or McCain's) --just an observation of what would be an ideal race for the Presidency.

[grantcart]

65. you cannot seriously think that this helps. The old wink and nod

and if a politician talks about 'states rights' what is the candidate really saying?

[maddiejoan]

72. I don't see a "wink and nod' here

:shrug:

[grantcart]

84. I hope that the Clinton campaign believes you and keeps it up and then

this circus will be over in a week

I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country (wink) and were devoted to the interest of this country," said the former president. "And people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues, instead of all this other stuff (nod)that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

The stupidity of your reply was shown when you stated that he didn't name anybody by name. Everybody, except apparently you, knew exactly who he was referring to

[maddiejoan]

94. :::yawn::::

[housewolf]

110. What's missing is the context in which those words were said

Something was said before them and something was said afterwards that would give some referential meaning to the words. By themselves, they are benign. But those aren't words that would just be said in a vacuum or dropped into the middle of a conversation or speech without relating to something else.

What is the "something else" that those words refer to? That's what I want to know. Without knowing that, I'm left to make up what I think the words are about. And I'm certain they are about something because, after all, this is politics.

[Arkansas Granny]

57. You know, I've read your post and I admire your sentiment in trying to

show that the remarks made by Bill Clinton were innocuous. Then I see you talking about "the other side" and "the ones we dislike" and realize that you are referring to Senator Clinton's supporters. It is really sad that as Democrats we have to see each other in that context. I thought we were all on the same side. Maybe when this is settled and the trolls and disrupters have had their fun and left, we can all be on the same side again.

[Bonobo]

66. Sorry that offended you. I should not have said it that way.

[Arkansas Granny]

83. Maybe I'm getting overly sensitive to the bashing that is going on from both sides.

Peace.

[Arkansas Granny]

88. Dupe. Delete.

[maddiejoan]

69. I took Bonobo's statement

about "those we dislike" to mean the GOP or Freepers.

I don't think he meant Hillary supporters.

[Bonobo]

74. She was right. I meant the (bad) Hillary supporters on DU.

I apologized. Thanks for the defense though.

[maddiejoan]

81. oh.

nevermind.

[Tatiana]

68. Maybe he didn't mean the comments in a negative or nefarious way at all.

But given the fact that he does use "code" language, as evidenced by the comments he made in South Carolina, you can't blame people for thinking the worst.

Personally, I don't care how he meant it. Let's move on and focus on getting our message of open government that works for its citizens out there.

[Bonobo]

71. As usual, Tatiana makes the most sense.

Love your posts, always.

[Tatiana]

73. We're in this thing together.

:hug:

[LisaM]

75. People seem to forget that Hillary is currently running against Obama

I'm getting really tired of everyone saying that she should be propping him up on everything. "Hillary should say this!" "Hillary must do that!"

Well, I think Obama should come right out and say that he does not believe that Bill meant to imply he was unpatriotic (and I certainly don't think he meant that myself).

He was campaigning for his wife at a VFW hall, where presumably McCain has some cache. So he spoke to say that his wife - the candidate - loves America too.

And I'm guessing that he's really tired of having it implied that he's a racist.

[Ichingcarpenter]

76. Give me some quotes of Bill attacking McCain

that would help me see your side.

You know he propped him up on his torture vote, don't you, by telling a lie to the America people.

I'm willing to listen........

[Bonobo]

77. I admit he was praising McCain, but not that he was saying Obama hates America.

[TwilightGardener]

79. Bill's too smart to say that, and you know it. Two people that love

this country? I would assume that ALL Presidential candidates love their country to death. He was excluding someone, or drawing a contrast. Bill is smart.

[kennetha]

89. Wow!

Do you remember the Swiftboating of Kerry? Do you remember Michael D. being tarred as a "card-carrying member" of (gasp) the ACLU?? Clinton has seen this all close up. He's saying that we should just presume that our candidates are people of good will who love their country, But our politics does not operate on that presumption, not at all.

Incredible!!

[Ichingcarpenter]

86. Show me him attacking McCain

Bill Clinton is not stupid and his comment was not a miscalculation in his eyes.

[Bonobo]

93. I allow for the possibility that I am wrong. Iching.

I just think that everyone has gotten a little too nutso.

[Ichingcarpenter]

96. Its typical triangulation tactics that the Clintons have used forever

by not including Obama he left the tainted inference, he is not stupid,
he is a brilliant politician, although not a morally righteous one.

[Bonobo]

100. Great cartoon. Thanks. It is how I feel about hewr candidacy exactly.

[VolcanoJen]

103. Bonobo, I can totally see your point, and I'm trying to see how you reached your conclusion.

But... I have my doubts. If Bill would've made the comment about "two people who loved this country" ten days ago, then people saying he's impugning Obama's patriotism would look a little bit daffy.

However, he said it just as the Rev. Wright controversy is dying down. Amd the entire point of the Rev. Wright controversy was to impugn Obama's patriotism by tying him to a pastor who made rather shocking anti-American comments. You know, the memes of "Obama's a stealth muslim, Obama's a stealth Black Panther," and now "Obama's a stealth anti-American Black Liberationist."

So I'm not all the way where you are. The timing of Bill's comments is sketchy. And I will say that when Hillary and Bill continue to sing the praises of John McCain, the Republican nominee, it drives me absolutely batty. Obama has no trouble saying "McCain is an American hero, first and foremost" but at least he follows that up by criticizing McCain, and strongly. I've yet to see that from Bill or Hillary, and it's frustrating, and it's a little shocking to see Democrats behave this way.

[Bonobo]

104. To be honest, VJ, I am not entirely convinced of what I said in the OP either at this point.

I WANT to get beyond this crap. I want it to stop so badly that maybe I am projecting too much optimism....

[VolcanoJen]

106. I know, sweetie.

Me, too!!!

:hug: Bonobo :hug:

GOBAMA!!!!

[Jawja]

97. I just saw it on MSNBC

and because he is stumping for Hillary he basically said, "by choosing Hillary we will get 2 people who love America," which is saying that by choosing Obama you choose someone who doesn't love America. How else do you interpret that?

[Coexist]

99. they are discussing it on Hardball, and the panelists agree it was on purpose

but only because the Clinton's really believe only Hillary can win.

In other words, they are pushing Wright/flag pin.

[zulchzulu]

101. BIll is an ass. Period. End of story.

I can't wait until they drop out. They're going to try to drag the Democratic Party down, but Richardson's endorsement is just the beginning where Democratic leaders are going to tell them to visit their Punjab homes and leave us alone.

I saw the clip and it was completely FUCKING OBVIOUS what Slick was doing. He can so suck on a cactus as far as I'm concerned.

[donheld]

107. The first part is not the problem

The end is a BIG problem