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Is there a way out of this Family Feud?

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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:06 PM
Original message
Is there a way out of this Family Feud?
After Obama's very powerful and moving and courageous speech on race, my estimation for the man went up considerably.

I have to confess that up until recently my main impressions of Obama was that he was sort of 60% pose at this stage of his career and wasn't terribly practiced in the fine sometimes very tough art of governing as a center left politician in America. While I do like many of his policy prescriptions, I thought that he was pretty cowardly on health care and that he put forth a plan that would actually set the progressive agenda back. His plan strikes me as really a half-measure which leaves the free-rider problem entirely untouched. (By the way, I'm not entirely happy on this score with Hillary either. In my estimation the full measure on national health insurance would be single payer. Hillary proposes a 3/4 measure and Barack proposes a 1/2 measure IMHO). I also didn't really see anything new in his new politics. Mostly this is where he seemed to me almost entirely a pose. It may be that I really do prefer a tough as nails fighter of the kind that I believe Hillary to be.

So it wasn't much of a contest for me personally to choose between Hillary and Barack. I don't think I was ever tempted to join up. I should say that most of my friends in academia where I work and the entirety of my African American family are for Obama. So I hear a lot about his virtues from people I care a lot about and respect a lot.

His speech was the first thing that actually tempted me, however briefly, to his cause. It helped me to see that the man is really more than a pose, that he does have some inner strength and courage. And though I still don't really see much in him that has so far prepared him for the difficult work of governing this country, I am prepared to believe that his inner strength and moral courage makes him a candidate for real growth.

Let me hasten to add that I actually think that most presidents in my adult lifetime have been quite unprepared for the presidency. Carter was no doubt the most morally decent man to occupy that office in my adult lifetime. But he made a true mess of the job. RIght man, wrong job -- at least at the time. But I also happen to believe that the older, wiser Carter, more mature, deeper thinking Carter that emerged after the presidency would have made a remarkable president.

I also don't think Reagan was terribly well prepared or that Bill Clinton or George Bush II were either. Probably the best prepared was George I. But for all his preparation, he was a truly forgettable nothing as president, IMHO. Ronald Reagan, as strongly as I disagreed with him on just about everything, though somewhat less prepared than Bush I was at least a consequential and effective leader -- but then again so was Hitler, so that's not saying all that much.

So I'm not even saying that preparation is all. But if you've got preparation plus toughness plus judgment plus sound policy prescriptions, then that's hard to beat and that's what I see in Hillary. I see some of that in Barack, but less of it.

I digress, however.

The real point of this long missive is to say that I can see Barack growing into the job -- just as Bill Clinton grew into the job (after he made a mess of things politically in his first two years). So I could easily vote for him. But here's the thing. I find that I am getting really, really tired of Obama's supporters, at least some of the one's on this board. There's way to little mutual respect for competing points of view, way too many cheap shots and ad hominem attacks, way too much spin and misinterpretation and just plain ill will. There's also this sense of entitlement that calls into question Clinton's right to even keep fighting to win the nomination.

I admit that Clinton supporters don't have any cleaner hands. So it goes both ways.

But here's the question, if other Clinton supporters are feeling like I am -- that I just can't stand the thought of four years of self-righteous crowing from Obama supporters -- and if Obama supporters feel about us in return the way we feel about them, then we're all in a heap of trouble. Cause what we'll get is another Repugnant administration. And I'm so sick of that. You can't imagine how sick.

So what do we do folks? How do we change the tone of these conversations while still competing vigorously, so that we don't end up just sick to death of each other when this is finally over?

Any answers?



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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. There's a very simple way, but most Hillary supporters don't want to hear it
Hillary needs to drop out. Period.

I have yet to see a scenario where she wins the nomination without tearing the party apart. If someone can show me a way that she can win without causing a major, irreparable rift in the party. I'm all ears.


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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Well if that's the only way, then I guess the answer is no
This is going to go on all the way to the convention. There is going to be a credentials fight over Florida and Michigan.

Hillary may win Pennsylvania, Indiana, West Virginia, and perhaps even squeak out a win in North Carolina. She may win Pennsylvania by 20 + points. No way she drops out if that happens. No way she gives up on Florida.

If the bare contest is going to tear the party apart, then we're hopeless. This isn't like being divided over the Vietnam war in 68. This is about personalities and some strange sense of absolute entitlement.

We can do better than that, can't we?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. We need to be pressuring Democrats to do what's best for the party and the country
If this destructive fight goes on through August, and it will end with a mortally damaged candidate no matter who wins the nomination. There is no way Hillary can win through "conventional" methods, and no way she can even come close without dragging everyone down into the mud with her.

We need more Democrats like Bill Richardson to stand up and do the right thing.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Crowing should be OUT
and respect should be IN.

I am a supporter of Senator Obama and I will not crow self righteously for 4 years if he wins. :hi:
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Expectations are a curious thing...
Edited on Fri Mar-21-08 06:20 PM by saddlesore
Why does competing vigorously have to end with losers?

Society dictates it.

You ask a great question, perhaps we need to be able to get behind a common goal as a people...I wonder what that could be?

Change, maybe? All candidates are now spouting the Change meme...perhaps, it has some merit...

Peace.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. Thank you.. Civil Discourse has been thrown out for RW talking points.
Its quite disgusting.

There are a lot of Progressives who have given up on some of these boards.. They are hiding out or finding alternative refuges. This is the absolute last thing that we need in the midst of this election cycle. We have very large problems in America, and a lot of problems we have allowed to be created under the stinking guise of a flag, a bird, and that all too stupid expression "freedom isn't free" (read 1984 if you don't understand).

This is supposed to be the turning point. This was the year that we would re-instate the consititution, bring back the troops, re-invigorate the economy with "green" growth, bring universal healthcare to every man, woman and child, and try repair our relations with other countries. NOPE, we are stuck on DUH.. To me, either one is fine.. we have to stay on them and push our agenda.. never back down, never turn away, and always push for what is right.

Its just a shame... This election has brought the absolute worst out in so many on this board and accross the entire country...
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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. It will be better once we actually have a nominee
But till then, I really don't know. We're like a family, each side squabbling and trying to win points against the other (at least we're not quite as bad as that family in Kansas were the supporter of one candidate stabbed his brother-in-law who supported the other candidate!).

It's really hard, on a forum like this, to remain civil. It's one of the bad things about internet forums - you don't have a live person sitting in front of you or on the phone with you - you only have words in front of you and it's too easy to act on impulse, type something rude, post the hit piece and run off to the next thing. There's no real person there whose emotions you have to deal with. There is no body language or non-verbal cues to help you understand what someone is trying to communicate. That makes it way too easy to be disrespectful.

I don't have any solutions. The only solution is for each individual to stop "thinking out loud" (i.e., on keyboard), and give some consideration to what it is they want to say. But how to cultivate that type of discipline and consideration in individuals who don't already have it is beyond me.




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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hillary is 90% bluff.
She is no dummy. She knows the numbers are not in her favor and the wind may blow this way and that from day to day but fundamentally, she is not going to win the nomination. The only thing left under her control is whether she goes down kicking and screaming and taking the party with her or with a few remnants of grace.

I believe that the high level superdelegates should start the pressure by publicly endorsing Senator Obama as the Democratic nominee for president. Gov. Richardson started the ball rolling and everyone else should follow. I wrote to my uncommitted Democratic Senators (Feingold and Kohl) today and asked them to publicly endorse Obama, since our state voted for him 58%. That will persuade Hillary that the country is not behind another Clinton presidency.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The Supers are not going to jump en masse
to a candidate whose support among white, working class democrats may be about to crater. If Obama loses Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Indiana, and West Virginia by 15-20 points because whites totally abandon him, they will find a way to "hand" Hillary the nomination.

These folks are not profiles in courage and they are not moral paragons. They are politicians. And many of them are obscure low-level party hacks.

They are out for one thing and one thing only - to back a winner and to ingratiate themselves to that winner. Backing a losing horse nets them nothing.

Since there's no guarantee that shutting this thing now would net a winning candidate, they aren't about to shut it down now.

Besides how could they shut it down? THe supers would step in en masse and move to Obama, obviating the need for the rest of the primaries? That would look real good to the people in the states yet to vote.

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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Supers in states that have already voted should commit
especially if their states went for Obama.
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Another question
Why exactly are democrats so divided? It's not like there's a huge ideological split in the party a la 68 over the war. It's not as though some insurgent candidate is trying to wrest the nomination away from a failed incumbent president a la Kennedy and Carter in 80.

The two standing candidates mostly agree. So why all this vitriol?

Is it because there's so little to choose between them that the small things are magnified?
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kennetha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-21-08 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ah well, the answer is obvious
there is no chance of ending this family feud.
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