The Clintons were Fantastic Until Hillary dared to run an assertive campaign.

[Mike03]

For the umpteenth time I say this: I am FOR OBAMA. He has the magic to turn this country around. But I am humiliated by so many of his so-called supporters here, who are doing more damage than good. The ONLY thing I don't love about Obama are a large segment of his supporters.

Hillary Clinton is running the kind of campaign that we attacked Kerry for not running. Democrats have a history of being too soft, of not wanting to win badly enough--and that is why we lose!

There's something really unfair about the demonization of Senator Clinton, and I don't think for one second that Obama would ever approve of this. He's a class act. He would want many of us to grow up and act like dignified adults, be respectful of not only our candidate but Clinton and even McCain. We don't win by acting like ignorant babies.

It's really embarrassing to see what other Obama supporters are writing around here. It really fills me with shame about some of the people here at DU.

Forgive me for speaking my mind. I'm just so pissed at how barbaric some of the conflict has become around here. Flame away.

[MH1]

1. Hillary stopped being fantastic to me on 10/31/06

when she stuck the knife in John Kerry. Then I saw what she was about.

Your post may be true for some others, but not for me.

[JohnnyLib2]

2. Good sir,

:thumbsup: :dem:

Recommended

[sandnsea]

3. Nobody ever told John Kerry to fucking LIE

god how hard is it for people to comprehend STOP LYING. Don't you think telling the truth is the first quality of a "dignified adult"??

[rockymountaindem]

8. Or say nice things about the Repub. nominee n.t

[karynnj]

31. Not to mention, HRC is doing what the FRW accused Kerry of doing

She's really lying about being under sniper fire.

[dailykoff]

35. Bill told him to get behind the family protection act.

Typical Clinton.

[maddiejoan]

4. I find it sad

that you have to qualify that you are an Obama supporter, and then ask for forgiveness when pointing out the obvious.
But I guess in this climate --it's the only way you can expect not to be met with outright derision.

But many thanks for speaking up.

[Cha]

5. IMO, you are humilating yourself.

Lately, all you do is whine about Obama supporters while saying you are one. I suppose you're cool with hilary's supporters?

[leftofcool]

11. But you don't need us Hillary supporters to win the GE?

Hillary supporters take note. We are not cool, we are self deluded, we are clueless, we are stupid, we are not needed for Obama to win the GE.

[emilyg]

49. Yes. I know I'm not needed. Good.

[rodeodance]

17. I think it wonderful to see a MATURE Obamafan have to courage to post the OP

zidzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Mar-23-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. IMO, you are humilating yourself.

Lately, all you do is whine about Obama supporters while saying you are one. I suppose you're cool with hilary's supporters?
NOT THIS TIME

[dailykoff]

36. 2nd.

If you have to hang with the haters, keep your shameful secret to yourself.

edit: addressed to OP

[stray cat]

6. She is running a Karl Rove/Bush campaign and sadly maybe that is what it takes to win.

But I really hope not.... Can't a candidate speak the truth forcefully and talk to the Americans like adults instead of appealing to our worse instincts through manipulation? It is possible that Americans are too lazy and ignorant to treat like adults and still win an election.

[rodeodance]

15. Obama camp had to issue another apology today--for the attack on Bill Clinton

[earthlover]

23. Obama spoke the truth forcefully last week...and his polls have improved now

Hillary's campaign has displayed the worst of politics....gutter politics. She has long ago abandoned a positive campaign. Endorsing the Republican nominee compared to a Democratic candidate took some real nerve....probably the only time in the history of the Party THAT has happened. But playing the race card a la her puppet Ferraro was the worst. The Democratic Party used to be the party of inclusion, diversity and racial harmony. Now racial politics, appealing to bigots is apparently acceptable in the kitchen sink. So the OP is not acknowledging this, nor complaining about it.

It should also be pointed out that, for all the lowering herself to the lowest of instincts, Hillary's tactics have NOT been effective. Obama has weathered the storm gracefully. Something, by the way, remains to be seen if Hillary were to be the nominee how she would handle the barrage of negative attacks that have been held back by the Republicans so far.

I don't share the OP's cynical view that gutter politics is strong politics and vice versa. Gutter politics wins by depressing turnout. Obama's strength, demonstrated in the voting booths and caucuses, is the ability to increase turnout and inspire new voters. He has also shown his ability to respond to the kitchen sink. Obama comes out of this stronger. Hillary, not so much.

[stevenleser]

40. If your negatives are consistently in the 47-52 range, then yes, that is your only hope for

winning, make the other person more disliked than you. That is why Hillary was never an option for me. That kind of campaign is not the kind I want to be associated with.

[Fredda Weinberg]

7. We can be a self-destructive lot. n/t

[keep_it_real]

9. Hillary Clinton is running the kind of campaign that we attacked Kerry for

If Clinton was running this campaign against McCain then OK but against a fellow democrat?

[karynnj]

30. Kerry never ran a campaign like HRC is - nor did he send THK out to lie

Both THK and JK had way too much integrity to do so. Kerry ran an excellent - very successful campaign for the nomination attacking Bush.

[SoCalDem]

10. whoa nellie.. she passed "assertive" a long time ago

she's merged into the batshit insane lane, and is barreling down the highway at 100 mph..with her eyes closed

[earthlover]

25. Her steering wheel appears to be non-functional as well.

I wish she would put on the brakes!

[cbayer]

12. I have to keep reminding myself

that Obama supporters on DU do not represent Obama.

I can say the same about some Clinton supporters.

Every time I see either candidate, I am filled with renewed hope.

Because they are so much better than so many of their so-called supporters here.

Thanks for posting this.

[rodeodance]

13. A big REC --thank you

[HockeyMom]

14. I always liked her husband more than her

Maybe I even voted for her for Senator BECAUSE of her husband. No more. I am even very unhappy with HIM lately.

[quiet.american]

16. I would have to say Obama is actually running the kind of campaign we wished Kerry had run

The frustration I had with Kerry is that it seemed to me he would not hit back fast or hard enough. Obama does just that, and still manages to run a campaign that does as much as it can to maintain the high road.

I don't fault Hillary for running an assertive campaign. However, throwing "the kitchen sink" at your opponent comes off more as running a desperate campaign. I would also say Obama is actually running an assertive campaign, not Hillary. The first words that come to mind when I think of her campaign are, patronizing, mean-spirited and arrogant.

As for Obama and Clinton supporters here, neither one side nor the other can be singled out for outrageous statements against each other. This must be the 3rd or 4th post I've seen here about how awful Obama supporters are on this board. Well, it goes both ways every single day.

[karynnj]

37. Obama has the advantage of the lessons learned in 2004

As Kerry said in a Texas appearance covered by C-SPAN, Obama will strike back - even using more money than the bad guys spent to answer each and every attack. He also pointed out that many Kerry 2004 went to Obama when Kerry opted not to run. They have the advantage of having seen this before. Through 2007, the Clintons spoke of how they fought back better - in fact, only the Kerry people saw the current RW attack machine - and they are still working on defeating it. (In fact, Kerry has helped him on a few smear - even saying that BC "abused the truth" on Iraq).

It is way to early to declare victory, Kerry batted the SBVT away twice during the primaries - the first time by putting over 100 pages of naval records on his web site. He also handled the intern affair smear in a very classy way, protecting the woman, but completely defeating the lie. Kerry's PRIMARY team was great - his general election team wasn't as well run after they added people who were not Kerry people - but Clinton people or backers of other primary candidates.

Remember that Kerry very nearly won a race the Clintons thought unwinnable in December 2003. There was no precedent for the role parts of the MSM played in the SBVT attacks. In 2003, would you have believed a major party could mock the purple heart metal - especially in a time of war - and have the media act as though the people were wearing funny hats? How many lies need to be conclusively proved before a source is discredited. (In 2004, the answer appears to be that for Bush, it was 0, for Kerry, infinity.)

[quiet.american]

65. Indeed, and it's gratifying to see he's taking them to heart.

I'm also happy to see Kerry getting Obama's back in this campaign. To answer your question about 2003 -- in 1993, I wouldn't have believed it, especially at that time having been not too long out of the military myself. In 2003, though -- it wasn't such a surprise, given that the media had not only given a free ride for two or three years to Bushco's lies about why we had to go into Iraq, but almost literally beat the drums for them ("March to War," etc.)

It was an interesting point you made about Kerry's post-primary team, thanks for posting that.

[Vinca]

18. I don't think it's an assertive campaign as much as it is an unwise campaign.

You do not pump up the opposite party's nominee and dump on another candidate of your own party. She's not getting her money's worth out of Penn and Wolfson. Carville's not doing her any favors either.

[BeyondGeography]

19. Feel better now?

Give us this day our daily Obama supporters are mean by Mike03 thread.

[babylonsister]

20. Is this going to be a daily scold? Just checkin'. nt

[Connie_Corleone]

21. One major flaw in what you wrote...

You DO NOT run a Karl Rove-style campaign against a FELLOW DEMOCRAT.

And lest we forget, the Clintons did absolutely NOTHING to help Kerry against the swiftboaters.

[blonndee]

22. Thank you. I agree with most of what Mike wrote, but that is a big flaw in the reasoning here.

People were angry at Kerry for not fighting back hard enough or being aggressive enough against a target that DESERVED and had earned "the kitchen sink."

[karynnj]

39. With do respect, could we amend this to: You do not run a Karl Rove campaign period.

[BattyDem]

62. "You DO NOT run a Karl Rove-style campaign against a FELLOW DEMOCRAT."

BINGO! :applause:

I don't mind assertive - that's politics - but she's campaigning against Obama as if he were the GOP candidate. To make matters worse, she trashes him while simultaneously praising McCain!

[Buzz Clik]

24. About Bill: My son made an interesting comment today:

"Bill Clinton would have been the Democrats' Reagan if he would have controlled himself during this campaign."

From a 19-year-old.

[EFerrari]

26. No. The Clintons were marginal until Obama started winning

and they figured out he was black.

[Blue_In_AK]

27. You are a good man, Mike03.

I don't support one over the other, but I think you are correct about "some" Obama supporters. WAY over the top.

[Bolo Boffin]

28. k and r

I've said this in another thread and I'll say it again here.

Hillary has run a tough campaign, and everything she and her surrounding advisers have thrown at Obama are things that Obama will see again. Better to deal with all of this now, preparing the response and the expectations now, than get stunned in the general. These attacks make Obama stronger for having to fight them. They "inoculate" him, as it were. Rezco has been banished as an issue, and any Republican playing of the race card will be even more starkly seen as the contemptible politics of yesterday.

Thank God for a tough Democratic primary. Not only do the Democrats have the upper hand, but we have a battle-tested candidate ready for the worst the Republicans can dish out.

[dansolo]

53. So you believe that Hillary should release all her records now?

Better to deal with them now than get stunned in the general, right?

[Bolo Boffin]

69. Of course. n/t

[Mezzo]

29. yup. these people will alienate more than he will encourage. nt

[AZBlue]

32. No flames. I think you're right. But...

...do remember that DU does not in any way represent the average American, the average Clinton supporter or the average Obama supporter - take some solace in that.

[dailykoff]

33. Oh bullshit. She's running the kind of campaign Kerry WON FOR NOT RUNNING.

Kerry won what, 48 primaries, including Iowa? And she's "won" 12? Haven't you figured out why that is?

Well I'll tell you: she's a liar and smearer who gives McCain more oral service than she ever gave Bill or any other Democrat. Quit whining about her imaginary victimhood for chrissake. She's a ringer and a troll.

[JohnnyLib2]

34. I just checked back and BANG! Another messenger has been shot.

Please don't let it pull you down. ;(

[stevenleser]

43. Nice try, but no. If the messenger came up with the message, it isnt "shooting the messenger"

If someone else crafted the message and you disagree with it and attack the messenger, then it is "Shooting the messenger".

The facts asserted by the messenger here are incorrect. There is a fine line between being assertive and being negative and Hillary passed that line as Carl Sagan would have said "Billions and Billions of miles ago"

[Cha]

48. Yeah, "the messenger" is being highly

disingenous. Were the clintons "fantastic"(gush! gush!) when hilary voted for the IWR without reading the 90 page NIE to look "tough" for her future pres campaign in 2008? And did bil clinton push the bushites War On IRaq when bush was riding high and then lie about it when chimp's polls went down..so Fantastic?

This is not the first time that the OP has started threads about how disgraceful Obama's supporters are against poor poor hilary.

[JohnnyLib2]

51. Thanks for noticing.

}(

[JohnnyLib2]

52. Thanks for calling attention to the message.

:kick:

[BlooInBloo]

38. If by "assertive" you mean "sleazy and race-baiting", then I agree.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

41. You're confusing "assertive" with "shortsighted."

Hillary thought everything would be over by Super Tuesday. She was the media-annointed frontrunner for a year, with all the money, consultants and name recognition in the world.

It's obvious she didn't plan past February 5th, and that's when things became really ugly, and in defiance of logic -- demanding debates with Obama, even though they had debated shortly before and had one scheduled soon after, offering the VP position to Obama when she was clearly losing, not to mention writing off states that were "red," or were caucuses, or had a high African-American population.

She also doesn't understand framing -- odd, given all her time around Washington -- such as when she mocked Obama with the "skies will open" speech. Even if she didn't realize it, she was basically coming out against hope and optimism, which does not play well with the masses.

Of course, praising McCain while attacking Obama regarding experience was just foolish on several levels.

And, yes, there are some vicious Obama supporters on this board, just as there are similarly likeminded Hillary supporters here. For the record, I have attacked both groups, so don't lump in all Obama supporters together.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. This Is What Bothers Me

You can like or hate anyone you like... As they have been saying on playgrounds since time immemorial. "it's a free country" but prior to this primary season the lion's share of DUers adored Bill Clinton... It was always "Big Dog said this.", "Big Dog said that."...Now everything he says is parsed and he's become George Wallace with an Ivy League education...

[Barack_America]

44. Is "assertive" the new word for "right-wing"?

:shrug:

Whatever you call it, it should be saved for fighting the GOP, not fellow Dems.

[mkultra]

45. Hillary was my winner until i saw

Bill Clinton twist Obama's words regarding Iraq war voting.

That is where it started and where my support for her ended.


Ever since, i have viewed her with scrutiny and have found very few reasons to go back.

[Upton]

46. You sound like a Clinton supporter

other than that I have nothing else to say, you may become offended.

[democrattotheend]

67. Why is anyone who calls out the behavior of fellow Obama supporters accused of this?

I, too, have called out Obama supporters and said that some of the behavior here reflects poorly on our candidate and needlessly antagonizes the Clinton supporters, whose help and support we will need in the fall if Obama is the nominee. I have been called a closet Clinton supporter and it's insulting. Why can't someone point out that some of our attacks reflect poorly on Obama without being called a traitor.

[democrattotheend]

68. Why is anyone who calls out the behavior of fellow Obama supporters accused of this?

I, too, have called out Obama supporters and said that some of the behavior here reflects poorly on our candidate and needlessly antagonizes the Clinton supporters, whose help and support we will need in the fall if Obama is the nominee. I have been called a closet Clinton supporter and it's insulting. Why can't someone point out that some of our attacks reflect poorly on Obama without being called a traitor.

[AirmensMom]

47. No, it's not assertive.

I was an Edwards supporter. I didn't particularly care for either Hillary or Obama. But then I listened to both of them a little more and this is what I discovered: Obama was inspiring. He gave me the kind of hope I haven't seen in years. He made me feel like he could actually do something positive for the country. Hillary ridiculed that hope with her "skies will open up" speech. Then came her "I have experience, McCain has experience, Obama has a speech from 2002" speech. That did it for me. It's beyond me how you can call her campaign assertive. Nasty and assertive are not the same thing. Wanting to win is different from doing anything to win.

I have stayed out of the ruckus for the most part. I see embarrassing things coming from both sides. There are certain members who post thread after thread (at least their daily max) bashing the other candidate. That is certainly not helpful. But please don't lump all Obama supporters and all Hillary supporters in one basket and assume that the few obnoxious ones are representative of all.

[Adelante]

50. It's been a poorly managed campaign

Run on an outdated strategy and style of politics I, for one, want to leave behind.

[Hepburn]

54. Speak for yourself....

...I NEVER liked Hillary. And that goes from when she first came on the national scene.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

55. I lost any support for her when she lied about Obama's record on choice.

When her campaign sent out flyers suggesting that he was weak on abortion because of the present votes. I researched the issue and found that it was an established strategy that both Planned Parenthood and NARAL approved of. The Clinton campaign had to know that so this was a deliberate smear. Against a fellow Democrat.

[cooolandrew]

56. Barack has made several attacks on McCain the vitriol of HRC shouldn't be for Obama.

It's not that we wish to be sexist, it's not disrespecting her strength it's just she happens to of lost and taking it to the convention would not be who we are as Democrats. Which would mean turningover public will.

[Tatiana]

57. Can you point out some examples of "what other Obama supporters are writing?"

Thanks in advance.

Because on the one hand I see this:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5222682">New Obama Pastor Charges Rev. Wright Victim Of "LYNCHING"- Obamas speech fuled it !!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5227042">Let's sink BO!!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5225518">Judas Richardson Does Nasty for Fox

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5226363">Calling all typical white people, if any left on Du to check in!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5211255">It use to be YES WE CAN for O suppprters on this forum, now it's LET IT SINK!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5214543">OMG!!! It's an Obamamiracle!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5218795">Obama: Exploitive and Wrong About Rev. Wright

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5214712">Who here has heard of Emil Jones?


And on the other, I see this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5217627">An explanation for Clinton Supporters.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5226057">A Question for ALL re Clinton/Richardson

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5217293">Florida KNEW they could lose ALL their delegates if they voted yes to move the primary.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5218522">Allowances

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5219177">Indiana County-level Projections based on Demographic Characteristics

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5168473">I would like to openly offer my genuine apologies to jlake.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5222518">Does Hillary Clinton support the neoconservative manifesto the Project for the New American Century?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5216725">OBAMA DAILY NEWS Sunday March-23-2008


There seems to be a clear difference in substance and quality to me, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hippo_Tron]

58. The primaries and the GE are two different things

You do not used scorched earth tactics in the primaries because it divides the party and you need a united party to win the GE. In the GE you can smear the GOP all you want because whether you do or don't, they won't be useful in helping to unite the country once you win the election.

[Spider Jerusalem]

59. The kind of campaign Kerry was atttacked for not running against BUSH.

Had Kerry run this sort of campaign in the primaries, while simultaneously saying George W Bush was MORE QUALIFIED than his Democratic primary opponents to be Commander-in-Chief, he would be VILIFIED here, and rightly so.

What you've written here is rather embarrassing, to be honest.

[avrdream]

60. Agree - and she will be assertive in her run as the INDEPENDENT candidate also.

Regarding Obama's classiness: he stood right next to his General yesterday while he ranted on about Bill Clinton - nothing classy about how he went right along with that.

[Ichingcarpenter]

61. The Clintons were Fantastic!!!

Where did you dream that up?
Was that in 2000 after Gore lost or before he Bill's last two years
in office that went to hell?

[Forkboy]

63. One person's assertion is another's offense.

[TragedyandHope]

64. "Assertive" is a loaded code word

Assertive is fine. However a certain line was crossed in the last week of February which was beyond assertive. The purpose of the Democratic primary race is to put a Democrat in the White House. Positive assertiveness worked fine for the first month of the primaries, but then a conscious choice was made to set off in a direction that weakens both potential candidates in the general election. That's the line that was crossed and there is a difference between that and assertive.

I would certainly be more forgiving if this was the general and the race was against a party we do not want in the Withe House, but the current race is between Democrats for the good of the party and the country.

I do agree that members on both sides are guilty of fomenting a toxic atmosphere on DU and we all need to bring things down to a civilized level. We need to face the fact that we must come back together to unite against our opponent in November.

[democrattotheend]

66. There's a difference between a primary and a general

I believe there are limits period, and I really am squeamish about negative campaigning, particularly personal attacks and attacks on candidates' families. But I feel that the bar for conduct should be higher in a primary than in a general, because I think all the candidates in a primary have an obligation to avoid doing anything that would hurt their opponent in the general. I think Clinton crossed the line with the 3 AM ad and the comments about McCain being more qualified than Obama.

That being said, I agree with you 100% about the conduct of some Obama supporters here reflecting poorly on Obama. Like you said, Obama has for the most part been classy and taken the high road, and I think he'd cringe if he saw some of the stuff his supporters say on this message board. We are not doing him any favors by pissing off the Clinton supporters whose help we will need in the fall.

[JimGinPA]

70. I Can Think Of Several Adjectives More Accurate Than "Assertive"

:eyes:

[ecdab]

71. Mike03, your sentiment is a good one but,

Hillary is not running the kind of campaign I wish John Kerry had. Her comments regarding McCain were, in fact, the exact opposite and the volume of email she has been sending out regarding Michigan and Florida that attack the Democratic Party and damage our chances in the General Election with complete BS are more over the top than anything a primary candidate should ever consider. She is trying to do serious damage to the Democratic Party in those states - and she is having some success in that.

I was willing to let the McCain comments pass by and hope she would make another such blunder. She has instead taken it to new levels of damaging the Democratic Party. She needs to have her candidacy ended - and she isn't going to do it herself, it would appear.

[JTFrog]

72. If she were running it against McCain instead of her own. Fills me with shame that you approve. n/t

[Raffi Ella]

73. Bravo!!! Excellent Post!

Even more impressive coming from an Obama supporter :toast:

I see in Hillary a Fierce Democratic Warrior and after the last hellish 8 years SHE soothes my soul.SHE is what I WANT in a Democrat.



again,thanks for the post!I loved it!!

[anonymous171]

74. The problem is that she is running against a democrat.

And using the tactics reserved for repugs.