White People Not Understanding "The Speech"

[GihrenZabi]

I'm white - but I am also married to a woman with two Masters Degrees in gender and culture studies, so I've been exposed to a lot of academic material on this subject that many white people aren't. I'm not claiming superiority of opinion nor expertise on this issue, only that I have a different perspective on things than a lot of white people (which will quickly become evident).


I'm posting this because I'm getting very tired of reading people stating that "Obama should have left the church because of his pastor's comments," or "He knew those comments were being made so it shows poor judgment that he remained part of the congregation," or worse yet just calling Obama bigoted or racist on account of being a part of that church.

Those people really don't understand that there is nothing wrong with anything Pastor Wright said, not if you understand what racism really is.

Every time I read something along these lines, I am reminded of just how badly so many white Americans do not UNDERSTAND racism, what it means, where it comes from, and thus it comes as no surprise that so many people just didn't understand Obama's speech.

So, my attempt to shed some light on this.


First of all, if you want to understand the problem of racism, abandon your white perspective because white people cannot understand the plight of persons of color from their own experience. You MUST understand that all white people, regardless of economic status, enjoy advantages that no person of color will ever enjoy until racism is properly addressed.


The article "Unpacking the White Knapsack" should be considered mandatory reading for anyone who wishes to engage in a discussion of race:

http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

That's just the first link that popped up on Google; but you can find this article all over the place on the web.

It is an uncomfortable thing for white people to examine or admit that we have such privilege in our society even now, but consider the following selections from the article, just to get the wheels turning:

- White people do not have to educate their children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection

- White people are never asked to speak for all the people of their racial group

- White people can be pretty sure that if they ask to talk to the "person in charge", they will be facing a person of their race

- If a white person declares that there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, their race will lend them more credibility for either position than a person of color will have

- White people can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having their co-workers on the job suspect that they got it because of their race

I defy anyone to tell me with a straight face that those five statements are not 100% true - and yet I can imagine the reactions among some of the readers. Anger. Resentment. Defensiveness. A desire to repudiate some or all of those statements.


I am seeing similar reactions to Obama's speech; it is flying right over the heads of people who, as Democrats, often claim to be more in tune with social issues, or more open minded than their Republican opponents, or more forward-thinking.

Obama tells us, correctly, that Pastor Wright grew up in a time when the black man faced levels of prejudice and racism that many of us have never seen, and cannot even imagine due to being white. How much consideration has this idea been given? I fail to see how any open-minded person can contemplate this idea and not begin to understand the resentment and anger that black people of Pastor Wright's generation STILL harbor.

Obama tells us that he cannot, therefore, repudiate Pastor Wright as to do so would be to repudiate the feelings of an entire generation of black people who went through this same prejudice and racism - I honestly don't understand why the discussion doesn't just end right there.

White people in America *need* to begin thinking about their whiteness in an open and frank manner. It is only after they do so that they will *begin* to be able to recognize the racism that lingers in our society - and it is only after they make that realization that they will understand Obama's speech, and Pastor Wright's anger.

Until then, we really can't take any further steps forward. That's one of the many points of Obama's speech, and he's 100% correct.

I think that reactions to what he said in and of themselves are shining spotlights on the problems he was referring to.

[mzmolly]

1. This "white" person got it, but yours is an excellent post.

K and R and one o' these :toast:

[mac2]

2. No he wasn't.

He had a minister in his campaign who didn't belong there. Obama has pushed for his religion for sometime. He wants more and more money for votes.

He could have issued a few sentences and be done with it. No he had to be treated like a "star" and tell us what we already know. He's no MLK since you won't find him speaking or marching in those large protests. He plays it safe...and a speech on his religion and minister wasn't earth shattering to most of us.

[Voltaire]

29. Ahhhh, the first obtuse message of the day

Embrace the illogic

[GihrenZabi]

32. Precisely what I mean...

*He had a minister in his campaign who didn't belong there. Obama has pushed for his religion for sometime. He wants more and more money for votes.

He could have issued a few sentences and be done with it. No he had to be treated like a "star" and tell us what we already know. He's no MLK since you won't find him speaking or marching in those large protests. He plays it safe...and a speech on his religion and minister wasn't earth shattering to most of us.*


Who said he didn't belong there? The only reason Pastor Wright became an issue is because someone, probably someone in the Clinton campaign, dredged up the footage and fed it to the media.

It isn't an issue. To suggest that Obama is somehow tarnished due to his relationship with Wright is just ignorant, any more than to suggest that you are nothing but a product of the combined opinions of all the people around you.

Most people *don't* know what Obama had to say - reaction to the speech proves it. I was at my parents' house this weekend and I was reading a columnists' response to the speech which appalled me. The author was a middle-aged white man who thought the speech was a mistake because "we just aren't ready to address these problems."

I thought to myself, "No, YOU aren't ready - and you also clearly didn't understand what he said because here you are validating his points!"

Discussing the reality of race is so far from playing it safe so as to make the origin of this response eyebrow-raising...

[Blue_Roses]

83. "He plays it safe..." omg.

Do you think running for president in our country is "playing it safe" especially when he's running as a bi-racial man? Don't answer. I don't think you have enough brain cells to give a thorough response.

Oh, well. Ignorance is to be expected among those who don't try to see past their own nose.:eyes:

Geezeeeeeeeeeee...:crazy:

[Traveling_Home]

3. You better hope your wrong....

'cause if them poor dumb white folks you stereotype don't get IT

Then Obama ain't got a chance of gettig IT - The Presidency

[LisaL]

9. Well, there is that.

LOL.

[yardwork]

10. Anyone who decides not to vote for Obama because of his minister

probably wasn't going to vote for Obama in the general election anyway.

[cliffordu]

16. That's a sad commentary on the nation, isn't it?

True, though.

:scared:

[yardwork]

19. Yes it is. I'm very disappointed. I was feeling kind of hopeful

until I realized that some of Obama's supporters were for Obama until they realized he's really black. I guess they thought he was pseudo-black before, or something. Pathetic statement on our country in many ways.

[truth please]

140. I Love You!

It is sad that Sen Obama had to transcend race in order for people to accept him. How do you do that, it's a secret I have not learned. Please tell me why he had to pretend he wasn't black to be accepted. How many white people have to pretend they are not white to run for the Presidency. It is demeaning and humiliating for this man to constantly try to tamper down his blackness like it is something evil waiting to come out. I keep hearing how he can't win being a black candidate, when you know damn well that's all people see when they look at him. Now it's turning into scary black man. How sad.

[northzax]

34. why is that?

Obama has made his personal faith a central tenent of his campaign, he speaks of it regularly. Is it not then relevant to know what forces and people shaped and influenced the thing that is most important to him?

if he had downplayed religion, then I would say it was no big deal, but he talks about it all the time. and that makes me think his spiritual advisors have an influence over him (and why would you have a spiritual advisor who didn't have influence over you? that would be useless) so that makes those advisors fair game for scrutiny.

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. Be honest now. If he had downplayed his religion and the Wright clip

was aired you'd be saying "Aha! THAT'S what he's been trying to hide!"

:eyes:

[northzax]

49. not at all

when you stand up and proclaim your faith over and over again, I start to look at the people who influence you in that faith. I personally would prefer a candidate who isn't proclaiming religious faith as a moral issue.

if he said that instead of religion, the most influential thing in his life was law, I would look to his law professors and legal mentors to see who they are. If he said it was baseball, I would look at who is baseball mentors are.

Barack Obama's professional mentors are Joe Lieberman and Tom Daschle. that's obviously important, right? if you want to know how someone will make decisions, look at the people they have chosen to mentor them.

For instance, if I need to make a major decision, I don't just think about it myself, I talk to people I trust, I have people who mentored me in my career, for instance, if you know who those people are, you can get an idea of how I might be influenced to make a decision in my career. even though I cannot talk to some of my mentors for various reasons, I still consider what they would think about an issue when making a decision. don't you? you never consider what your father, or grandmother, or Aunt Jane or older brother, or whoever it is/was would think about a situation?

[CitizenLeft]

90. He was forced to talk about his faith over and over again...

...because he was being called a Muslim.

[northzax]

123. ok, you go with that

did you actually see his speech at the Convention in 2004? how about his speeches while running for the Senate in 2004? how about his speeches from early 2007, before anyone was talking about the whole Muslim stupidity? He lead-off with his faith. He made it a fair topic of discussion by making it a central point.

oh that's right, I sicken you because I don't apply the one-drop rule. never mind then.

[yardwork]

57. Obama belongs to an African American church. Do you have any idea what they're like?

Most African American churches are filled with sermons like those made by Reverend Wright. They're also filled with inspirational, highly moving sermons.

Are you ready for an African American president or not? Many white folks take it as a given that all presidents will look and act just like them - white guys who go to white suburban protestant churches. Are you ready to sample the genuine complexity and diversity of the United States of America, or do you want to continue pretending that everyone in "America" is a white straight suburban protestant?

[northzax]

69. I am ready for a President

who doesn't follow a religion, and make it a central part of his life and campaign, lead by a bigot. that's what I am ready for. don't tell me it is culturally acceptable in the African American community, that's not acceptable for someone who wants to lead everyone and unite everyone.

and you're asking me if I know anything about African American Churches? let me look around. Yup, there's the picture of my boss on the wall, Father Williams, he sure looks black to me, and his boss, the Canon, yup, black. And the most recent photo of the parishoners? yup, they look black to me as well. You see, I work for a black church, in an overwhelmingly black neighborhood (Anacostia, look it up). But I guess that's not a REAL black church, right? maybe those aren't real black people?

I have also been to evangelical white churches with inspirational sermons, some of which have been marred by a odd derogatory comment about muslims or jews. I would tend to distrust any political leader who called such a person a mentor. but that's just me, maybe I prefer religions that thrive without spending their time and energy calling out and demonizing people not of the faith. I guess it's my nasty liberal upbringing.

[yardwork]

70. You definitely win the "experience with black churches" competition.

I just hope that if Obama wins the Democratic nomination, you won't vote for McCain, or not vote. Because McCain is far worse.

[northzax]

71. of course I will vote for the Democratic Nominee

no question. I may not be as eager to take vacation to volunteer or donate my meager funds, but there is no question on voting (of course, since I live in a pseudo-state where the Green Party gets more votes than the Republicans, it doesn't really matter anyway.)

[yardwork]

72. I understand. I'm not all that enthusiastic about either Obama or Hillary,

but they beat the heck out of McCain. Since I live in a southern state my vote probably won't count anyway, but maybe this year.

[CitizenLeft]

93. then you, in particular should know that talking about racism...

...in the context of centuries of violence and discrimination against not just black people, but brown, all across the globe - is NOT RACISM IN AND OF ITSELF. And if you seriously believe that it IS racisim - to point out racism, to call out it's cause and to NAME IT - means that all that blackness all around you means nothing whatsoever... because you still lack that essential gene that would allow you to see more clearly... EMPATHY.

Nobody is asking for sympathy... but a little empathy - a recognition of alllll that has gone before - instead of denial, and that knee-jerk defensiveness - would be nice. From somebody who knows alllll about black churches.

[northzax]

122. it's not racism to point out racism

it is racism to make a general statement about an entire race, which is kind of the definition of racism.

what Reverend Wright said, at least the comments I have seen, haven't been racist, they can be much better described as 'anti-American' (And will be by Obama's opponents) Reverend Wright has every right in the world to say whatever he wants to from his pulpit, that's the beauty of the system we all live under. But if you are going to call him your spiritual leader and mentor, and you are running for President of the United States, you should be prepared to answer questions about why your mentor says things along the lines of the US is to blame for September 11th. He has every right to say it, but we have every right to question why someone would follow a mentor who says such patently ridiculous things, completely out of context and without historical explanation (by the way, blaming the US for 9/11 goes over in much of the country as well as blaming a woman in a miniskirt for being gang-raped goes over at Smith, it's good to remember that)

the facts of the matter are that what Reverend Wright said in his "god damn America" and "9/11" moments actually has some merit (although, in all honesty, making a connection between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings and the September 11th attacks is mendacious, at best) The problem is, his protege is running for the Presidency, and we live in a digital, instant media age, where a 15 second sound clip is a hundred times more effective than the grandest of speeches. This was not a civil rights speech, it was a campaign speech by the frontrunner for the Presidency of the United States, the entire United States. and you don't become President by calling the US names, that doesn't fly in the flyovers.

oh, that's right, you're ignoring me because I question the one-drop rule. sorry to waste everyone else's time.

[Bake]

73. I think it's pretty said that any candidate has to make faith a central tenet.

Obama is not the only one to do it. They've all pretty much pandered/pimped their faith for votes.

Too bad there really IS a "religious test" for office.

Bake

[yardwork]

88. I agree completely. It's pathetic that in 2008 so many people are so "Dark Ages" in their beliefs.

This country gets me down sometimes.

[Yes We Did]

137. I think you're forgetting that at every turn Obama was asked about his faith

[babylonsister]

4. Rec'd! Thanks so much for this post, GihrenZabi. I just hope the

right people read it.

[YOY]

5. "Some" white people didn't get it.

Not all or even the majority though by a longshot.

I got it. It was perfect.

[cliffordu]

6. Yeah, this honkey gets it completely. K and R

:kick:

[Fovea]

79. 100% whitie comprehension RE Obama's race speech

I was raised a bastard in a 1950's mid-west family and not told why I was treated as I was until I was an adult. My mother had been a swing band drummer in her youth (1930s and 1940s) and I grew up knowing a lot more African-Americans than the average West County STLouis honky.

Being branded illegitimate by those who should love and support you really was the central reality of my childhood, and no one told me why I was inferior. Nothing I could do made any difference. I thought it was the learning disability. But I was the bastard child of a forty something divorced woman in 1955 living with her ex husband. My older brother was also a drummer and worshiped the local rock and roll hero Chuck Berry. He was the typical white American, and so am I.

We are typical in that we grew up with color blind ideals, but were growing up at the end of Jim Crow America of white and colored. Racism is in the very dirt under our fingernails, and we must scrape it off regularly. My brother was so angry, he section 8'ed out of the seal program.

My older sister, who is Irish-American, married a reform Jewish man named Ted Goldberg Jr. From Ted Goldberg Sr., I learned about racism in sports as he explained that the Harlem Globetrotters was about the only thing open to a good black B-ball player and about Jackie Robinson's crossing the color line in Baseball. Ted had a profitable Rambler dealership, but was not country club material. Had his son been half so devoted to my sister as Ted was to his wife, my sis would still be with him.

I have dated African American women-- they have all the daily BS of being black, and all the BS of being a woman. And if they date you, honky, that opens up another whole set of issues. I highly recommend the experience of taking your sweetie out on a date in St. Charles Mo, or road dinner at a truck stop in Boonville, for example, to get to see how far we have yet to go on the subject. It is not a very happy thing to see someone you care about be treated like a whore by the dentally challenged.

For years I dealt with my anger management problems by the simple expedient of practicing a full contact martial art that involves sticks. But during that period I also taught music, worked 11 years as a male in nursing, 5 of them in an ER, and no one told me I was too angry to do CPR or restrain violent patients. As a thirty something, I carried an undergrad 3.4 gpa in English and PoliSci while bordering on homicidal. I was recommended for a Fulbright but was too old (the standard is now 'in good health'). Should I hate young people? I wrote hundreds of thousands of lines of computer code while chronically angry at Bill Gates.

Much of my life I have bicycled in a driver's world.

I have had African-American martial arts students lose their temper the same as whites and dealt with the anger by hitting it with a stick. Of course, the price was getting hit back by an angry black man with a stick...which I can assure you leaves no larger a bruise than being hit by a huge white Vietnam vet with a six foot long stick having PTSD on the field.

I am a lefty, and man is the world right-handed. My current partner won't even let me pick up her scissors. It has an invisible 'Rights Only' sticker on it. These seem like small things, and they are. But they drip, drip, drip down on the sandstone of human resolve and cut channels of chronic irritation and pain into your soul.

And boy howdy all those woes rolled together ain't crap compared to being a color other than white in America- but both gave me a sense of what it was like to have a taint attached to you through no fault of your own.

Because I have no hope for Universal healthcare from either Dem, I don't care if the next president is an angry black man, or an angry bi-racial man, or an angry white woman.

Because angry is not crazy, and John McCain, as many have noticed is a batshit crazy mofo. How crazy?

I wouldn't turn my back on him in an exam room.

IN FACT--

I want the next president to be angry, because anyone who can look at what America is right now and not want to rip a few folks a capacious new asshole is a part of the problem.

[yardwork]

89. What an incredible rant. Thank you.

After reading (and posting) years of mostly crap in DU, I come across your post tonight and....wow.

Thank you.

[LWolf]

7. Then there is this white person,

who doesn't give a shit about the speech, and didn't bother to listen to it, because she thinks votes should be based on the walk, and is sick of all of the bullshit talk.

It's not what people SAY that counts, in the end, but what they do.

[yardwork]

8. I'm white and I understand. I'm surprised by the level of ignorance on DU about this.

I'm particularly surprised by some of the self-congratulatory, pious statements that "any kind of racism is just as bad as another," which is like comparing being dragged behind a pickup truck with being the recipient of a vulgar hand gesture.

Frankly, I think that some white folks (I'm white so I get to say this) should just grow up. Really.

[cliffordu]

13. RE: Frankly, I think that some white folks

(I'm white so I get to say this) should just grow up. Really.


LOL !!!

:headbang:

:rofl:


Edited for line length

[treestar]

22. If you think it's bad on DU, try the white conservatives

It's not just as bad, and no one equates it, but it's there. White people do not like being told they are racist. In fact, right wing racism today is not along the lines of being shocked to find a black person in charge somewhere, or even being certain that nonwhites have less ability, or ought to be excluded from this or that. It is always defensive, along the lines of; there is nothing they personally can do, and now they are the "victim" because others are insisting they are "racist" when they think they are not.

I'm willing to accept the fact that I'm a racist due to mere whiteness, but what of the problem that such a thing makes "racist" a watered-down label for me? It doesn't sound bad any longer.

Fortunately this is an area where Obama can do a lot of good, even if not elected President. His speech shows he has a handle on it that whites don't have to run from.

[roseBudd]

87. It is faux outrage by people who refuse to admit people are voting for Obama because they like him

[indimuse]

11. we know..and Hillary is not a N***er either!

I know hate when I hear it! His church is not one of love of ALL...is it!?

[Hugabear]

18. I dunno - how many of Rev. Wright's sermons have you personally attended?

Or are you just basing your opinion on the man on a handful of speeches and sermons given throughout his entire career?

I daresay that many in his congregation would wholeheartedly disagree with your view. Funny how they might be in a better position to judge than someone who has NEVER BEEN TO HIS CHURCH.

[northzax]

so you're saying that his congregation agrees with him?

that only Senator Obama, alone, sat there and didn't object to certain things?

which one is it?

[northzax]

39. so you're saying that his congregation agrees with him?

that only Senator Obama, alone, sat there and didn't object to certain things?

which one is it?

[goletian]

42. has she been called a n***er? how is this hate?

hes citing racism with these comments. talking about racism is hate? what if i crack open a history book and read about racism? am i reading a book filled with hate? instead of posting this, take the time to research what blacks have gone through in this country, educate yourself.

[Ordr]

12. I'm for Obama and I think he made a great speech.

However, this constant "white people don't understand" shit just has to STOP. I don't understand the obsession with guilt that DU (and the majority of the young left) seems to embrace. It is profoundly counterproductive and reeks of over-generalization and self-loathing.

[LisaL]

20. Apparently typical white people are also dumb.

Way to go, DUbamas.

[Ordr]

23. Well spoken.

[yardwork]

27. This white person will stop when it is no longer apparent that it's necessary to point this out.

If you think that racism is no longer a problem, and there's no such thing as white privilege, then why do you and others feel obligated to complain about those threads? Why not just ignore them?

The mere fact that these threads make you so angry, so defensive, indicates that the problem continues to exist!

I'm white and I'm not a self-loather. I don't feel personally responsible for the fact that the United States was founded on slavery, genocide, and imperialism. I acknowledge it, recognize it, and attempt to reverse it.

I'm white and I've witnessed other white people say horrible things about black people and other minorities. It's simply not true that the problem ended years ago.

[northzax]

36. of course there is priviledge

but one way to change it is to not say "white people are the devil" or some such thing. how is that going to help anything?

[yardwork]

52. Obama doesn't say "white people are the devil." Never has, never will.

Obama's mother was white. That makes his children one-quarter white. Obama doesn't hate white people. He's offering a new way, a better way.

[northzax]

59. i never said he did

but his pastor came awful close. and you came awful close to saying that was perfectly ok in the OP.

by the way, we still count what fraction black or white someone is? who does that?

[yardwork]

61. Apparently, you do.

[northzax]

64. or, of course, you do

since it was in your post that 'his children are one-quarter white" whatever the heck that really means.

[Leopolds Ghost]

74. Are you saying Obama and his children are black?

Define your terms please.

[northzax]

84. I don't know about his children

but Barack Obama self-identifies as black, therefore he is black, for all practical purposes. if he self identified as white, then he'd be white, for all practical purposes.

I was referring, buy the way, to the comment above that there is no way Obama would go to a church that hated white people, after all, his mother is white and his children are "one-quarter" white. I haven't seen anyone described as "one-quarter white", well, ever. or one-quarter black, for that matter. it's archaic and stupid, is my point. you are what you want to be, if you have a white parent and a black parent, why are you black? because traditional society has said so. but that line is seriously blurring, I have to tell you. I never heard someone describe themselves (in my peer group at least) as being "half white" I've heard "mixed" but never "half black" it's ridiculous.

I just find it amusing that I am being lectured on the meaning of his speech by someone (not you, the other poster) who is insisting on applying the one-drop rule, and counting fractions of "whiteness" or "blackness". I thought the point was to move past that?

[yardwork]

92. Of course its stupid but the point I'm making is that white folks can say it's stupid and forget it,

while black folks can say it's stupid but they still have to deal with it, day in and day out. So we might as well still be living with the one drop rule because that's the reality I see when I read people on a Democratic message board all upset about something a black preacher said during a jeremiad.

[northzax]

121. and I would posit

that part of the message of his speech is to move beyond that idea in the first place. And the best way to do that is starting at home. we need to stop using the very language of discrimination and oppression, which makes a distinction between those who are 'half-white' and 'white' but not those who are 'half-black' and 'black'. people should be able to identify with whatever race or culture they are most comfortable with, without being an 'uncle tom' or a 'n***er lover' from either side.

oh, and in the neighborhood I work in? I am "you know, the white guy" so I understand perhaps as much as any good private-school educated, TFB WASP possibly could.

[CitizenLeft]

94. you sicken me.

...and with your continuous twisting in the wind, you've well-earned the ignore list.

And no, I don't care if you don't care.

[northzax]

124. but you still felt the need to announce it

was it my questioning of the one-drop rule? is that it?

[truth please]

141. You're kidding, right?

You have to be, because what you just wrote is funny as hell. He self-identifies as black. I know many bi-racial people, including my mother who was promptly told she was black. My kids went to school with children who had white mother's and would tell white kids they were white and immediatly told they were black. So where is this place you live where all you have to do is say you are white and it is accepted.

[cliffordu]

38. EXACTLY!!!

:patriot:

Thanks, Yardwork.

[yardwork]

53. You're welcome.

[Asgaya Dihi]

85. It's simple. We DON'T understand.

Trying to play it off as white guilt is as bad as trying to pretend nothing wrong ever happened in the first place, though I'd also add some major points to the ones the OP made as well.

How aware are you of the prison system? The racial disparities, and the causes for them? Do you often think about the 100:1 sentencing disparity between rock and powder cocaine? Does it ever bother you or even occur to you that blacks make up about 15% of the country’s drug users, yet they make up 37% of those arrested for drug violations, 59% of those convicted, and 74% of those sentenced to prison for a drug offense? http://www.idpi.us/resources/factsheets/mm_factsheet.htm

Do the ways so called "safe school zones" work bother you, or do they still seem like a good idea in some way? Here's how they work in practice. In the suburbs a kid spends little time in one, if they don't do or deal drugs at school you can pretty much forget about them. In the city they can be close enough to overlap and you might spend most of your life in one and not even know it much of the time. The exact same crimes by the same types of kids in similar circumstances leads to widely varying results depending on where you're lucky or unlucky enough to live, mandatory minimums in the city vs the option of treatment, probation, or even dropped charges for the kid in the suburbs.

And the cumulative effects of all of this? Almost one black man in eight between the ages of 25 and 29 is behind bars right this moment as we type this, today. More on probation or on parole. http://www.prisonsucks.com/

It's pretty simple when we get down to it. It's not our kids, it's not our neighborhoods, and it's not our problem so we just don't think about it and when someone tries to tell us the real shape of the system we try to find a way to justify or ignore it, blame them for it.

For what it's worth I am white but the justice system has been a project of mine for quite a while now and I'm pretty familiar with it. I'm well aware that yes, the black community does have its problems with the overly macho attitude among some being a big one, but given their chances of ending up in prison for being no worse a kid than many of ours are or living around those who were just recently released maybe they've got a reason to feel the need to be "tough". At this point how do we really tell what's their natural problem and what's actually due to what we've done to them?

We don't understand, period. If that was our neighborhoods, our kids, our imprisonment rate and so on we'd be screaming and would have been for years. But it's not us so we don't even know, let alone care, and neither does the media or our leaders. If that's not institutionalized and current racism I'm not sure what is.

[CitizenRob]

135. At the risk of being inflamatory...

First, I want to say thank you for your post. It is well thought out.

I would like to pose a question that is going to offend people. My sincere apologies in advance for any offense.

I'm in my early 30's, and I have been mugged at gun point twice in my life by groups of blacks (3 the first time, 6 the second time.) I have witnessed groups of blacks mug other individuals on two other occasions.

Is it possible that black culture has serious problems which lead segments of the black population to commit crimes that land black persons in jail more often than other races? I mention specifically that it was groups because it indicates a certain level of social acceptance of this sort of violent act and thievery to me.

If you are offended by the question feel free to say so, but I would appreciate real thought out responses. I've been a hairs breath from being killed twice now by a segment of the population that is only 12.5% of the total population in this country. As much as I would like to pretend black culture doesn't create monsters, I don't have that luxury any longer.

[truth please]

142. CitizenRob

Heinous crimes are commited by all races, but it amazes me how all black people have to be sorry for what a few do. I never hear the call for all white people to answer why they go on mass killings, or why they are they have such a high rate of child molestation, but decent black people always have to answer for what other black people do. I and my children were almost ran off the freeway by a group of white men in California, I didn't think all white people were like that. When I was a kid we had rocks, bottles and sticks thrown at us because white men didn't want us on what they thought was their beach. I can go on and on, but do you think all white people are creating monsters. I bet the almost 5,000 blacks that were lynched in this country might think differently.

[CitizenRob]

146. You are stating a white culture problem that we all acknowledge.

But why are we afraid to acknowledge similar cultural problems with black culture?

I too have my concerns that blacks may be treated unfairly by the justice system at times. But that doesn't not mean that they are treated unfairly all of the time, or even a majority of the time. If only 60% of crimes black individuals were convicted for were crimes those individuals actually committed it would still be an OVERWHELMING number of crimes that put, at this very moment, as we read this, 1 in 15 black persons in jail justly.

If that isn't an indication of a huge failure in black culture, what is? Or, have you constructed a world view where it is impossible to criticize black culture no matter how criminal it becomes?

[GihrenZabi]

113. It's not about guilt...

...though that is a very, very common reaction to reading the "knapsack" article.

Don't conflating pointing out the problem with feeling guilty about it. I recognize white privilege but I don't feel guilty about it one whit. *I* didn't create the problem, but I *can* do something to fix it based on how I treat people, what my political and social values are, and just by recognizing that the problem exists.

A reaction of guilt would only be appropriate if you are personally responsible for the problem.

[countingbluecars]

14. Great post.

Thanks.

[ekwhite]

15. NIce Post K&R

[treestar]

17. This is good stuff

Though I can already see the white person quibbling.

The one about being sure I'll see people of my race would tend to indicate a preference for being with one's own race. Though right wingers should certainly understand that.

Do minorities not trust me when they see me? If so, how?

In my work I deal with many nonwhite people and so this makes me a bit nervous. People seem to trust me, though, for the most part. Was I able to prove myself trustworthy in some way? If so, what was it?

I think white people could understand, but then the equivalent is that nonwhites perhaps cannot understand whites either and need to step into their shoes; because I really believe the typical white person's reaction to this is: Then what are we to do to solve this? There is something in American culture, maybe including minorities, that says, if there is a problem, we have to do something. And if we don't know what to do, we want the person who brought the problem up to have some suggestion for how to solve it, that person having thought about the matter already, obviously.

Then we'll also see resistance alone the lines of: affirmative action, the Civil rights act, school busing, we thought we had that problem solved. It bothers a (white?) American to think a solved problem still isn't solved - they get frustrated. Now what do we do? They haven't thought about it, so rather than condemning them for racism and thoughtlessness, it would make more progress to try being "helpful" and saying what they can do is more likely to lead to solutions.

Mind you, I'm not claiming these problems are nearly as serious as being the victim of racism. It's just that they are there and need to be solved, especially since it is what is still not OK for the nonwhite person. Just calling something racism isn't going to help, the typical white person is complacent that the problem is solved (the typical right wing white person even sees the minorities as now "privileged" due to affirmative action, etc., or being able to have groups, like churches, with only their race, while they could not have a white-only church without it being labeled as racist - mind you, I am not saying they are right, only pointing out that is the way they see it).

[bigmonkey]

40. White people may be unconsciously racist.

They need to be able to recover from unconsciously racist statements without fear for their jobs. Losing your job for an unconsciously racist statement doesn't happen often, but there are high-profile examples that the media, with its right-wing bias, usually highlights. I remember a college coach fired 5-10 years ago for a statement that he repudiated and apologized for immediately - he otherwise (as far as the accounts I read) had an exemplary career of fairness. Maybe people remember a case where a person was fired from their post (although they were later reinstated) for using the word "niggardly", a word which comes from a northern European language (Norwegian) and means miserly - it has no etymological relationship with n****r.

The reason this needs to happen is so that the unconscious racism is discovered, not repressed, IMO.

[treestar]

55. That's a good point

Very good one. Even right wingnuts would get the idea if it's for their own protection.

I did not fully understand what you are saying of an AA person if you are saying they are "articulate" and I'm fairly well educated. This is where the white resentment comes in. If it's unconscious, it's unfair to condemn the person for it - just kindly correct it. Then some people do speak a certain way and it seems silly to ignore it. Which is not to say it is a bad thing. It's just there and exists, why can't a white person notice it as much as a nonwhite person might notice a southern accent? This is how white people start feeling like "victims" when these things are pointed out to them.

[DURHAM D]

41. My problem with Obama's speech is that he didn't finish it.

He left the race issue stuck back in the last century and did not talk about the way forward.

His speech and subsequent statements made the problem generational and that is not fair to those that have spent a lifetime in advocacy for human and civil rights. That includes millions of older white people who have always voted for Democrats and supported the Democratic party because of the core values of the party. I am personally insulted (as are all my friends) because what we got out of Obama's view on race is that we need mass funerals (all the people over 50 need to die) before the country can move on.

[treestar]

56. I think Obama only meant that Rev. Wright was a product of his

generation and Rev. Wright therefore would have suffered the more serious forms of racism that existed back then, and that's why his attitude is the way it is now. It's the same ground on which I excused my grandfather for his occasional racist views. He was a white guy of the 30s and 40s and not especially educated or cultured, so he was relatively backward in that area. His children, the next generation, are a mix - they were more educated and some are liberal and some are still harboring racial resentment - all that crap about how the nonwhites are "privileged" by affirmative actions, etc. The next generation down is more liberal - one of its members once dated an AA guy and old granddad lived with that, though when he was young, such a thing would have been unthinkable to him.

Sometimes I do wish some part of the AA community would recognize that progress has been made and use that to support that more can be made. There's too much speechifying as if it is still as bad as it was in the 50s. It would go far. I do think Obama did that.

[DURHAM D]

67. Yesterday an old friend called.

We had not talked for years because she moved away. She was upset and felt the need to talk. She is upset with Obama. She feels he is turning back the clock on the race issues. She felt the need to apologize for what "he doesn't get about white people". She labored to talk because she is on oxygen and has a stress related chronic condition. We talked about our long friendship and our many conversations about racial differences and lack thereof over the years.

My friend has been chased by dogs, sprayed with water hoses and even peed on by deputies. She was knocked unconscious (during a demonstration/march) by a policeman with a billy club and she woke up in jail.

She is straight and I am a lesbian. She is 82 and I am 63. She is black and I am white.

We cried together and she asked me to pray with her. She knows I am agnostic so the pray request was amusing. She then asked me to just listen while she prayed.

We love each other.

[truth please]

143. We do try

I am 52 years old and my Grandmother, Aunts and Uncles all lived in a terrible time in America. They don't hate white people, they are really scared of the things that were done to them by whites. We try to bring them into this century but the crimes that were commited against these people were so horrible they can't seem to realize that there have been changes. I've heard the stories and I can't imagine living day by day and not knowing when someone might feel the need to kill you. What is happening now is bringing up a lot of bad memories for them. They see white people getting all worked up over what they feel is nothing and it brings back flashbacks to the time when it was easy for people to kill them because they were not viewed as human.

[EffieBlack]

106. Why SHOULD he have to finish it?

Why is it left to Obama to be the "explainer," the "healer," the "problem-solver" on all things racial?

Why aren't Hillary Clinton and John McCain being called on to offer THEIR views on this issue?

Why isn't anyone demanding that any other white politicians step up and answer this call?

Why is it left to the black presidential candidate, not only to answer for and address this issue, but to come up with ALL of the answers, as well?

[BeyondGeography]

21. Victimhood is so much easier than comprehension

White obtuseness is the primary barrier to change in this country. I hope I live to see it conquered, if only for one election cycle.

K&R

[northzax]

24. if white people don't get the speech

then it wasn't a good speech, since it was targeted at WHITE PEOPLE. you may have noticed, that despite, or perhaps because of all that, caucasians (non-hispanic) are still 65% of the electorate in this country. so to say, as you seem to think Obama was saying, that it's ok to be racist against whites, because the system is racist against blacks, may well be a legitimate thing to say, but this was not a civil rights speech, it was a campaign speech. Obama is running for the Presidency of a majority white country, and needs, desperatly, the working class white vote.

this is politics, it has nothing to do with what is 'fair' or what is 'right' it has to do with what simply is. and Barack Obama needs the votes of whites, the ones he, according to you, just called racist. that'll sure go over real well, don't you think?

[GihrenZabi]

43. Someone else who doesn't get it

"....then it wasn't a good speech, since it was targeted at WHITE PEOPLE. you may have noticed, that despite, or perhaps because of all that, caucasians (non-hispanic) are still 65% of the electorate in this country. so to say, as you seem to think Obama was saying, that it's ok to be racist against whites, because the system is racist against blacks, may well be a legitimate thing to say, but this was not a civil rights speech, it was a campaign speech. Obama is running for the Presidency of a majority white country, and needs, desperatly, the working class white vote.

this is politics, it has nothing to do with what is 'fair' or what is 'right' it has to do with what simply is. and Barack Obama needs the votes of whites, the ones he, according to you, just called racist. that'll sure go over real well, don't you think?"


The speech was targeted at everyone. If you think it was targeted at white people, you didn't listen or comprehend, or both.

To suggest that Obama was saying "it's okay to be racist" just further validates the charge that you really didn't listen, or comprehend, or both. The divide between accepting racism and understanding where it comes from is so very, very wide, yet you conflate the two.

To suggest that *I* am calling white people "racist" is also rather ignorant...and further suggests that you are allowing visceral, emotional responses to rule you rather than using your head and thinking about this calmly and fairly.

The point *I* was trying to make is that many white people don't bother to try and understand the privileges they enjoy in our society, which is the necessary first step in understanding the anger in the black community. If you can't see what they are angry about, of course you dismiss it.

[northzax]

51. I never said it is ok to be racist.

you did: I refer to your OP:

Those people really don't understand that there is nothing wrong with anything Pastor Wright said, not if you understand what racism really is.

and no offense, but you are wrong. why would he target a campaign speech at blacks? he's winning 97% of that vote, why bother targeting a major speech at them? this was a campaign speech, don't forget that. You target campaign speeches, especially major policy or thought ones, at people who you want to influence, not to those you have already won. Mitt Romney's religious speech wasn't targeted at Mormons, he already had them, it was targeted at evangelicals who didn't trust his mormonism. Jack Kennedy's Catholic speech wasn't targeted at Catholics.

[GihrenZabi]

117. Racism...

...in the most recent culture studies contexts, argues that racism is something that only the race in power can engage in, that blacks cannot be racist because they lack the ability to inflict upon whites what whites currently inflict upon blacks, or to put it another way, every black person in America could be "racist" the way we currently think of the term and it wouldn't matter one whit, because they don't have the power to keep us out of jobs, make us feel ashamed of our race, or any of the other social problems racism causes.

Thus, Pastor Wright cannot BE racist.

He can be prejudiced.


I don't think Obama "targeted" that speech at anyone - to think he did is, again, to miss the point.

That speech was for everyone, because racism is EVERYONE's problem.

Assuming Obama to be playing the political game by the same old rules is a mistake, IMHO. His appeal is precisely that he *isn't.*

[treestar]

58. This is entirely true

There was another thread saying Obama's numbers went down after the Rev. Wright's words were made such a big deal of by the media.

But it might not have been direct reaction to the speech, but rather, that feeling of this country is not ready for an AA president and so switching to Hillary thinking that we want to beat McBush and when the nomination is settled on Obama, we'll have to deal with that white racism thing and maybe we'll lose. Did Hillary get a similar bounce over her "crying?" (Though I thought calling that "crying" was gross exaggeration). But it just makes the point that with either candidate we have an issue of: just how many voters out there still, when it comes down to it, are going to be overcome by racism or sexism? The regular repukes who wouldn't vote for a Dem anyway don't count, but what of the group of swing voters that always exists? There is a legit fear that some of them are still going to wonder if a woman really can do the job. And IMO it's more risky that sexism could lose the election than racism. One wonders if Hillary will address that the way Obama did race. The MSM surely will at some point find a "Wright" moment for Hillary.

[dmr]

25. I'm white, and believe the "don't get it" is pure politics

I understood Rev. Wright's statements the moment I first heard them. I respect and appreciate Senator Obama's speech.

As far as I'm concerned, the media and those on DU who are stirring the pot are doing so because they get something out of it. It's politically motivated. What better way to cause a divide than to get the bigots of this world all in a dither.

I thought America was better than this. I don't want to go backwards in time.

[The_Casual_Observer]

26. That speech was given in response to and for cover of a political scandal.

It was a con speech.

[Mudoria]

128. You're the first person in this thread

who has nailed the real reason for the speech. Simply a CYA situation which he did a poor job of.

[npincus]

28. thanks

you are absolutly correct.

[Shine]

30. I would amend your OP to say "Some" white people not getting it

Although I appreciate the points you made and I agree with them, I also think blanket generalizations don't serve anybody.

Case in point: this 44 yr old white woman totally "got" his speech. :thumbsup:

[GihrenZabi]

46. Conceded

"Although I appreciate the points you made and I agree with them, I also think blanket generalizations don't serve anybody.

Case in point: this 44 yr old white woman totally "got" his speech. :thumbsup:"

Apologies - I thought it implied that the "white people not getting it" were the people having the sort of emotional reactions I discussed.

Sometimes one forgets that everyone assumes you're generalizing unless you go painstakingly out of your way to say otherwise...which just further illustrates just how sensitive this discussion is (which, to a point, indicates the lack of progress on the issue).

We ought to be able to have a discussion about race without everyone getting up in arms about it...when we achieve that goal, then we can do something about it.

[Growler]

31. K&R

[BigDDem]

33. He rode us like he rode Monica Lewinsky!!!!

(insert humping visual)

what I'm "not understanding" is how someone with such excellent
"judgement" would take their little girls to hear hateful trash.
But hey, I'm just a "typical white person"

[Leopolds Ghost]

76. Huh??

[Texas Hill Country]

35. PEOPLE will not understand it because there was no soundbite. It was a lecture (no neg connotation)

there is no single sentence that encapsulates the speech.

I will say once again, fantastic lecture... horrible speech.



"I have a dream..."

"Tear down this wall..."

"Ask not what your country can do for you..."

"I am not a criminal..."

"We Hold These Truths to Be Self Evident..."




Every single one of those speeches has a soundbite or catch phrase that is immediately identifiable. We all instantly have context, time, person, and topic come to mind.

Finish each sentence, and even if you will still understand what the entire speech is about.

Barak has no such phrase... "A More Perfect Union"? thats Jefferson... "I'm here for Amber"? Who is Amber and why are we here for her? Is that the Amber Alert Amber?


Great lecture (in the intellectual us of the word, not the patronizing sense)

Horrible speech.


My favorite line from the John Adams tv series was when Abigail Adams said to her husband... "You do not have to use the words of great men to show other people that you are a great man."

I would have given Barak the same advice.

[Sweet Pea]

37. I understand it enough

to recognize the moral equivilancy of making excuses for objectional, hateful and racist speech from someone who, if repudiated and dis-avowed, would hurt his candidacy and hurt him politically, so I understand why he didn't do so.

And to infer that, because I am a "typical white person" I don't "understand" the speech, is stupid in and of itself and I find somewhat racist, as well!

[CitizenRob]

45. I disagree with the contents of the invisible knapsack belonging to whites.

Was this a peer reviewed paper? Did any of the criticism (that all peer reviewed papers should receive) point out that many of these "advantages" are probably more closely linked with wealth than with skin color? Most poor folks of -any- race do not have the advantages you mention here.

I tried to find ones that were specifically race related but in all instances I changed the hypothesis from race to economic class and found that the same conclusions could be reached.

[GihrenZabi]

47. Faulty premise

"Was this a peer reviewed paper? Did any of the criticism (that all peer reviewed papers should receive) point out that many of these "advantages" are probably more closely linked with wealth than with skin color? Most poor folks of -any- race do not have the advantages you mention here.

I tried to find ones that were specifically race related but in all instances I changed the hypothesis from race to economic class and found that the same conclusions could be reached."


Then, if you can, read it again but first drop your bias against recognizing white privilege. It's pretty obvious.

Even poor whites have advantages that rich blacks do not. To wit, not being considered as "speaking for their race" when they make statements, being reasonably sure that they will be dealing with someone of their own race when they speak to "the person in charge," just to name two off the top of my head.

Economic class has nothing to do with either of those things, so your premise is faulty.

[CitizenRob]

50. Long than one line answer inside...

Then, if you can, read it again but first drop your bias against recognizing white privilege. It's pretty obvious.

Actually I was wide open. I did retain my critical thinking skills though which is why I came up with the question I had. The problem is when you make these same comparisons to white poor people versus middle class white people you're going to find the same disparity. We do not (despite our national ethos that we do) live in a classless society.

To wit, not being considered as "speaking for their race" when they make statements, being reasonably sure that they will be dealing with someone of their own race when they speak to "the person in charge," just to name two off the top of my head.

I'll go there with you on the "speaking for their race" but I won't got there with you on the "person in charge." A lower class white person is just as likely to NOT be talking to a lower class "person in charge" as a black person is likely to not be talking to a black person in charge. In fact, if you want to compare things along race lines alone, I'd say a black person is MORE likely to talk to a black person in charge if the person in charge is in a government/health care job role (DMV, city permit offices, etc..) than a lower class white person is likely to talk to a lower class white person in ANY role anywhere that is a position of authority. (At least that is the case where I live.)

Economic class has nothing to do with either of those things, so your premise is faulty.

Seeing as I've just disproven your second argument (although I'll agree with you on the first point about "speaking for their race") perhaps you should consider the validity of your premise before automatically discounting mine.

And one last point, I find some of these "advantages" to be dubious in their "cause and effect." The "being late to a meeting" one for example. I don't want to nit pick this thing to death, but if this is the first time you're hearing these criticisms I doubt that this paper went through the needed peer review and vetting process that should have brought these contrary ideas to light sooner. If I were a professor I'd grade this paper well for showing original thought and initiative. I would however make the same "are these really things that can be attributed to race disparity" comments as an overall criticism though.

[GihrenZabi]

107. Not the right perspective in which to view this, IMHO

That essay is not, and was never meant to be, a "peer reviewed" essay.

It's a white person's musings on what it is to be white - which is something that most of us never do.

IMHO, by trying to nitpick and debate, you're missing the point of the exercise, which is just to THINK about it and recognize that whites DO have unspoken advantages and privileges in American society. Come up with your own list if that's what you need to do in order to drive the point home to yourself or anyone else you care to discuss the issue with - but you understand, I think, that the problem exists.

The point of this essay is only to get people thinking about the problem. I find that your response of going through point by point is extremely inappropriate, not in the sense of "you shouldn't say it," but inappropriate in the sense of missing the point.

[Leopolds Ghost]

77. Poor whites are invariably higher in social status than working class or even middle class blacks.

They are allowed to condescend towards them and confer with higher-class
whites as supposed equals, to pretend as if they were on track to become
wealthy themselves.

That is racism.

Understand it.... Deal with it!!!!!!

[Rex_Goodheart]

48. What rationalizing bullcrap

Yes, there's racism. No, it's not a one-way street.

I am highly offended that a major presidential candidate supported a church that described this as the "US of KKKA", as though a lot of white people have not stood up to that organization or as though a lot of legal steps have not been taken to at least begin the process of remedy.

How dare the "Reverend" Wright preach against "middleclassness" as though it were some sick white plot to deprive black people of equality.

Does the "Reverend" Wright ever preach about a black portion of responsibility for their own condition? I'd like to see it.

When do the historical grudges end?

[stillcool]

54. Highly Offended?

Maybe you should learn about who the Reverend is BEFORE you condemn him, his life, his Church, and every person ever associated with him.

Born on September 22, 1941, in Philadelphia
Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. is one of the most widely acclaimed black preachers in the United States. Combining social concern, spiritual growth, and political activism, Wright, who preaches in a black traditional style, brings a message of hope, redemption, and renewal. In 1972 he became pastor of a small United Church of Christ congregation in the inner city of Chicago. After over 30 years in the pulpit, his congregation has grown to 10,000 and is the largest United Church of Christ congregation in the United States.
In 1959 Wright enrolled at Virginia Union University, in Richmond, where he remained until 1961. That year he left school to join the military. He served in the Second Marine Division of the U.S. Marine Corps from 1961 to 1963, achieving the rank of private first class. In 1963 he graduated as valedictorian from the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, and from 1964 to 1967, he served as a cardio pulmonary technician at the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda, Maryland.
During 1965 and 1966, he was awarded with three Presidential Commendations from President Lyndon B. Johnson.

After his discharge from the military, Wright continued his education. He enrolled at Howard University in Washington, D.C., in 1967, and was awarded a bachelor's degree in 1968 and a master's degree in 1969. He then entered the University of Chicago Divinity School, receiving a master of arts degree in 1975. He ended his formal education in 1990 when he earned a Doctor of Ministry degree in black sacred music from United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio.
----------------------------------------------
When Wright joined the staff of Trinity United Church of Christ as senior pastor, the inner city church boasted just 87 active members, most of whom came from the neighborhood surrounding the church. Wright embraced his new congregation took up the phrase coined by his predecessor Rev. Dr. Reuben Sheares, "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian." Within months the church had adopted the phrase as its motto and vision. Under Wright's leadership, fueled by his passion, and motivated by his preaching, the congregation began to grow by leaps and bounds. By 2004 there were over 10,000 members, with
people coming from across the metro area. The congregation, which proudly notes its diverse socio-economic mix, dedicated a new 2,700 worship center in 1997.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Wright has authored several books, including Africans Who Shaped Our Faith, Good News! Sermons of Hope for Today's Families, and What Makes You So Strong? Sermons of Joy and Strength from Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. According to Cleophus J. LaRue in The Heart of Black Preaching, in his title sermon of What Makes You So Strong, Wright "demonstrates the power of the mighty sovereign at work in the lives of black people in twentieth century America. This sermon focuses on the root of black strength and survivability. Wright makes it clear throughout the sermon that the source of all strength, and especially black strength, is none other than the Spirit of God." As in his preaching, in his writing Wright focuses on the
dual issues of corporate concern and spiritual sustenance. His latest publication, What Can Happen When We Pray: A Daily Devotional, was published in 2002.
In recognition of his contributions, Wright has been awarded seven honorary doctoral degrees. He has also served on a number of boards and commissions, including serving on the board of trustees for Virginia Union University and Chicago Theological Seminary. He continues to be a highly sought after preacher,
teacher, and lecturer.

http://www.dogonvillage.com/blogs/african_american/archives/140

[Life Long Dem]

68. How dare you determine that blacks were not deprived!

[GihrenZabi]

118. Historical grudges end...

...when the results of that history are dealt with.

It's easy to say that blacks shouldn't be angry anymore when you're white and have no idea what black Americans put up with on a daily basis.

[EFerrari]

131. What problem do you have with Rev Wright critiquing America?

That's the problem in reality, isn't it? I guess his First Amendment isn't as generous as yours.

This is nothing historical about racism in America. Or, about poverty, either.

[truth please]

144. Listen to his speeches

The what the whole black value system that white people are calling racist was trying to do. The church is trying to do just what you say. We in the black community also suffer from what I call "the white man won't let me syndrome". I was lucky to have someone tell me I could do anything. I could even be President, when I got older I knew that was a stretch, but I worked hard. I do get tired of all black people being reduced to what a small segment of our population does. I taught my children the way I was taught, that is nobody owes you anything, if you want it you have to work hard.

[JoFerret]

60. "Typical"

Innit

[cooolandrew]

62. Your frankness is greatly respected adn hope it opens the door to more of similar and postive

pgramatic discussion from all sides.k&r.

[anamandujano]

63. The Obama car wreck may want to factor in that the "non-understanders"

are in the majority.

And yeah, we do understand. That is his problem.

[SeaLyons]

65. ...

:thumbsup:

[Leopolds Ghost]

81. Adlai Stephenson may have been right... the American People are too damn dumb to understand.

[Two Americas]

66. K and R

Thanks GihrenZabi, for this post and for having the fortitude to tackle this subject. Well done.

[mamalone]

75. I think sometimes people think

if you mention race at all, then you are being racist. Almost as thought the only correct way to deal with race is to ignore it... you know the old "color blind" ideology? If you mention the realities of race, the challenges of being either white black or whatever, then you are *really* branded a racist.

I am a white woman who is the mama of various children of various different hues. I used to think that racism was basically extinct, at least in my area of the country (northeast) and certainly among thinking folk. Believe me, that delusion died a swift death!

The first time I went into McDonald's with my infant daughter I noticed a difference in the way I was treated. I kept thinking, "What on earth is the matter with everyone? Why is everyone being so cold?" I'd been there a thousand times before with my two lily-white daughters, and the change was unmistakeable. A couple of old ladies saw that I was carrying a baby and delightedly asked to see her. When I pulled back the blanket and they saw her little brown face they recoiled and walked away without saying a word. It was then I realized the "coldness" was a response to the racial make-up of our family. I had never encountered anything like this previously and it really shook me.

I had one "friend" who exclaimed upon seeing my daughter for the first time, "Wow! She's black!" And when I responded, that of course she was black... she was from Ethiopia, my friend, mumbled that she thought "she'd be more mullato-ish" (and no, I'm not kidding!)

We've had black folk yell at us from across a crowded restaurant, had white people refuse to get into elevators with us. My son has kids "joke" him about his hair.. I could go on and on and on, but I'll spare you the details.

Suffice it to say that it's been an education for this middle class white lady... and one I'm thankful for. I've learned that racism is real. It's constant. As whites we can pretend it isn't, we can ignore it. But when your face is brown, your every interaction is influenced by it. We need to accept that black Americans don't experience the same America that we do as whites. We need to talk about these realities of race without getting threatened or offended. We need to accept that others have scars that we simply can't understand... and we need to extend grace to each other as best we can.

[jonnyblitz]

78. if the preacher said nothing wrong, why did Obama repudiate

what he said? I personally agree with you, Obama apparently does NOT.

[thoughtcrime1984]

80. K&R

Very well put. :kick:

[Blue_Roses]

82. awesome post!

this post is like finding a "diamond in the rruff." Well said!:applause:

Thank-you.:)

Edited after reading other posts: Clearly, your post has hit the nerve that you address. Sad that we continue to have narrow-minded, half-thought out views on such a vital subject.

[roseBudd]

86. Chris Rock "There's not a white person who would change places with me. And I'm rich!"

[LisaL]

97. Then he under-estimates himself. Methinks there would be

plenty of people wanting to be him.

[drexel dave]

99. I know lots of dirt poor white folks living in ghettos

who would love to trade places with Chris Rock.

The problem in America has never been race, but rather, class.

Race is only a tool used as a methodology by those in power to divide and conquer the masses.

There are lots of white ghettos in America, as there are black ghettos.

This race bullshit only goes to cover up that fact.

[roseBudd]

126. And African Americans are disproportionately represented in all measures of well-being,

income, health, unemployment.

So your point is that because poor whites exist there is no racism?

[drexel dave]

127. my point is that it's not about color...

it's about CLASS BIAS and discrimination. Saying there is no such thing as racism would be stupid.

Of course, class bias an discrimination is a huge problem within' the African-American community as well.

[madrchsod]

133. it`s always been class warfare...

not to many white folks would believe that bill monroe-the father of bluegrass- developed his style from a black railroad worker...

[Cha]

91. Most White people got it...notice the calibre

of the ones who didn't.

[AnnieBW]

95. I'm white

and I got his meaning just fine. His meaning was that we shouldn't make blanket statements like "White people don't get it..."

[GihrenZabi]

116. Again...

...place comments in context.

Am I addressing all white people in the OP, or only "the white people who don't get it?"

It's easy to see offense if you look for it, more difficult to assume the offense isn't intended and come up with an alternative read...

[drexel dave]

96. one of your statements that is not true

"- White people can be pretty sure that if they ask to talk to the "person in charge", they will be facing a person of their race"

Yeah, perhaps true for MOST white folks.

But where do I fit in?

I'm a white boy from dirt-poor Appalachia living in an inner-city ghetto environ, working in a 90 percent African American environment where my boss is African-American. My girlfriend is also a beautiful hue of caramel (we don't like the black word, it's very non-descriptive as we've never seen a truly "black" person.

[GihrenZabi]

108. Not representative

When it comes to discussion of wide-ranging issues of race, we're talking about majorities. Most probables. Etc. - your individual story simply does not invalidate the existence of institutionalized racism and the ignorance of most, not all, white people in terms of its continued existence and the resentment it causes in the black community.

People from Appalachia do not represent the majority of whites in America by any stretch of the imagination.

By admitting that it is "perhaps true for MOST while folks," you're validating the essay.

[drexel dave]

119. Oh, I agree it's true for A LOT OF white folks

but certainly not all. There are so many shades and hues of regular everyday reality, we often forget this. So, for it to be true, it would have to apply to ALL WHITES, and it certainly doesn't.

But having been raised in Appalachia, living in a inner-city situation, etc...I have a much different perspective than someone coming from a gated community.

Problem is, how do you keep from lumping in folks like me, with them? It causes resentment in me when I'm told what a privileged past I come from, when in reality, nobody knows that I come from a history of hillbilly coal miners trying to get by in this big ol' crazy world.

[GihrenZabi]

130. Repeat...

Again, like I said, your individual experience does not invalidate what is by far the experience of the majority.

You can always find exceptions, but they don't break the rule.

All whites, regardless of hue, have advantages that blacks do not. It's an inherent aspect of whiteness.

If you live Appalachia and go to NYC for a visit, you're never going to be viewed with the average levels of mistrust and contempt if you were to, say, walk into an expensive Manhattan store as the average black man would.

That's a privilege.

[drexel dave]

134. Yeah, the Appalachian drawl

is a hinderance in the Midwest, and I've learned where and when to turn it on and off.

However, whenever I've traveled to the coasts, it was a blessing. People kept on asking me to say certain things over so they could hear the drawl. It was a lot like having a foreign accent (women especially liked it).

Of course, the fact that I can converse on a number of subjects intelligently, even with a briarhopper drawl, pierced people's perceptions and opened up a world to me.

I agree with what you're saying. I guess where I'm coming from is trying not to alienate those who need not be alienated.

[yardwork]

110. Of course. Comments like Wright's are not intended to put down individuals.

Reverend Wright was giving sermons intended to energize his audience. He was not setting out to offend or criticize individual people. Wright's sermons are part of an American tradition - the jeremiad - that goes back to the Puritans who founded parts of New England. The Pilgrims.

The biggest problem facing the United States is that of income disparity. Most people here have very little compared to the monstrous wealth accumulated by the few at the top. Those same corporatists - who own and therefore control the messages of the media - know that it benefits them to keep us all fighting with one another.

The truth is that most of us - of any color, ethnicity, or background - have more in common with one another than we have with the few who have grabbed all the power and resources, which they are wasting.

Obama speaks to this. Pay attention to what Obama is saying, not the words that the mainstream media pushes in front of you to atttempt to get you to vote for McCain in despair.

[crankychatter]

98. The "SPIN" is that Obama can't win because White People won't vote for him

To scare away primary voters

even the best intentioned post just fuels the fire and makes me question motivations.

Well if you can't post a nicely nuanced and informed opinion like THIS one on DU, what's the world coming to, eh?

k n r from me

[underpants]

100. Obama appears to be going after the ESPN male crowd

Just an observation I picked up recently.

The big question in the general election, should Obama get there, is the "battleground" Mountain West and will traditionally Democratic voting white males in the Midwest vote for Obama?


Well it appears, to me, that in order to offset possible losses in this area Obama's team is targeting the younger ESPN (just post "lad mag" Maxim/FHM) male crowd. Basically white guys just out of college or in their mid-20's.

Just something I have noticed in the recent lull of the campaign.

[crankychatter]

102. My optimism regarding his campaign would AMAZE YOU

without writing a tome here

I can support all this with conventional demographics, some sociological and cultural research and obervations...

but I'll just say it

he could sweep this nation with a landslide unprecedented in US history

we don't have to parse this down to the millimeter of poll trends

America is ready... he can turn EVERY poll around

BUT ONLY IF HE HAS TIME

Every day that passes... it's less likely

[underpants]

103. I've also noticed that CNN, at least, are trying to suggest that he is going negative too

Aside from the McCarthy comment about Bill Clinton they have VERY WISELY stayed above the fray.

Hillary is slinging enough for the two of them...well her and her disfunctional campaign staff



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5231883

[crankychatter]

105. dysfunction junction, what's their function?

sometimes I think that I AM wacked

imagining the mayhem in camp clinton is sweet relief

[MyNameGoesHere]

101. Yeah and i am Cuckoo fo Cocoa Puffs. Another stupid "white"

people don't get it post by another stupid "I am white but I understand the people of color" elitists. Go get a nice big canvas and a extra big brush and paint away why don't ya?

[GihrenZabi]

109. That's an intelligent response...

...not.

No white person can understand the experience of a black or latin person in America. What we CAN understand is what it means to be white.

You've missed the point entirely - probably because you're offended by the suggestion that whites have inherent advantages...which means you still haven't really thought about it.

Go read again and come back later. :)

[MyNameGoesHere]

111. I missed the DU rule about responses having to be intelligent, as did you n/t

[GihrenZabi]

112. LOL!

I'm sorry - I tend to expect people to value intelligence in their conversations...

Welcome to the ignore list!

[MyNameGoesHere]

114. Well when you put your expectations on other people

you are going to be disappointed.

[VinnieF]

104. I wish I had enough posts to Recommend yours.

This cuts right to the center of the issue. White people who refuse to consider an alternative perspective continually deny that racism is alive and well in the U.S.A.

[livvy]

115. Great post. knr

I admire him for addressing the issue in an open, and non-judgmental way. I took no offense to either his speech, nor the words of Pastor Wright. Racism indeed lingers in our society. It lingers in all races of people, and is all too often denied.

I have friends who would deny they have issues with race, yet I hear it in what they say. It is subtle, and they don't hear it, or feel it as racist. That they don't recognize their prejudices makes it impossible to reason with them, and they stand no chance of dealing with it within themselves. They know it is wrong, so they deny it exists within them. I guess that's easier than addressing the issue, the whys and the wherefores, and working to eliminate the irrational feelings.

It reminds me of an alcoholic. There is no road to recovery until they utter the statement, "Hi, I'm ____, and I'm an alcoholic."

[walldude]

120. I posted this yesterday, it goes well with this thread:

I have seen tons of posts about the Reverend Wright in the past week or so. I've been laying off those threads because the Reverend isn't running for office. However, today I have jumped into the fray, so to speak, because I see many people who are now wearing the shoe on the other foot, yet the truth and the lesson continues to elude them.

Don't like it when white people are compared to the anti-christ? Wow this must be what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism.

Don't like it when white people as a race are denigrated by a preacher? Wow this must be what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism.

Don't like it when white people are accused of trying to kill off black people? Wow this must be what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism.

Don't like it when white people are judged by the color of their skin? Wow this must be what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism.

So what did you learn from the Rev Wright?

BTW in case you are wondering, I got my racism lesson years ago, from the brilliant Ossie Davis directed film Cotton Comes To Harlem. It was the first time I was made to realize what it's like to be on the receiving end of racism. Ossie Davis made me understand how he felt being a black man. What was my response to the movie? Did I freak out? Did I start calling him a racist? Did I attack any political figures he might have a relationship with?
No I didn't. I took the lesson he taught me to heart, I thanked him for showing me a perspective I would have never been able to understand without his help. I became more aware, more sensitive and much more understanding of what life is like for a minority, and for that, I am forever grateful...

[NaturalHigh]

125. Congratulations on your enlightenment (via your wife).

I guess I'm just one of those poor dumb white guys who doesn't get it. I personally think some of Wright's comments are reprehensible, and I don't understand a presidential candidate continuing to tell us what a swell guy he is.

I've always said that I would never vote for Hillary Clinton. I've never cared much for Obama, either, but I've held out some slim chance that I might vote for him if he got into the general election. That chance is growing slimmer by the day.

By the way, your self-congratulatory condescension is evident and somewhat nauseating.

[GihrenZabi]

129. Yes, you seem to be...

Your hostility towards a white man expressing his willingness to try and understand, to what degree he can, the racial divisions in this country and the root of black anger towards white America is far more evident and outright offensive.

You've clearly not made one iota of effort to try and understand Obama's speech...and I have no time for the ignorant, so onto the ignore list you go!

[madrchsod]

132. you should stop by more often

there`s a lot of people here at du that don`t get it. i think many will be leaving as soon as barack wins the nomination.

[NaturalHigh]

145. Oh no, not the dreaded ignore list.

Whatever shall I do? A guy with 146 posts has me on ignore.

:rofl:

[Hoof Hearted]

136. Why don't you beat them over the head with it?

That will be productive.

[Yes We Did]

138. K&R That generation... long ago... still hangin' on to...

those old ways of doing things have held onto those old shoes without ever realizing that new shoes are available.

I thank God that Obama is where he is. That proves that those people who want to linger way back there didn't affect change. He is where he is because of that change. I am hopeful. That 5 to 20 percent didn't stop that change from happening.

[Yes We Did]

139. If you're asked at every turn about your faith then you...

have no other choice but to answer the question. Obama tried to avoid it but with the right wing nut jobs continuing to smear him, it made this subject a regurgitation of talking points.

I think many don't want to understand a candidate like Obama. That's sad. For if they were able to see life from his point of view they may come to an understanding that privilege has much to do with hope and that we aren't really so different. We eat with our mouths. We see with our eyes. We walk upright. We are all different at the same time. We must respect those differences for if for some reason we should be disadvantaged we would want others to show us the respect that all people deserve.