Florida's failure. They did not act "in good faith".

[madfloridian]

When I got up this morning I vowed I would leave the topic alone. But a brief look at local news channels changed my mind. I saw once again statements quoted by Steve Geller blaming Howard Dean for the Florida mess.

I saw once again quotes from the interview by Corinne Brown saying that
Howard Dean should resign.

It is like there is no truth in this situation, that everyone gets to make their own. Even if we overlook that fact that rules were broken deliberately..they went along from the start..you can not get past the fact that they made no "good faith" effort to fix it.

Transcript from Rules and Bylaws Commission

In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state’s delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes...."

Florida did not act in good faith according to the committee. This video was one of the most glaring things.

Senate Democratic minority leader presents his amendment..sort of

A senator who introduced the bill said being relevant was more important than partying in Denver

And Jeremy Ring, a Democratic state senator from Broward County and co-sponsor of the legislation, defended it.

"If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I'd choose being relevant with no delegates," Ring said. "We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver."

TBO.com had an article called Primary Predicaments. They pointed out a lot of things, long article. The Florida Democrats need to own up if for no other reason than the fact that the GOP has the facts down cold. I think a list is included at the link.

At its summer 2006 convention, the Democratic National Committee specified a tough penalty - the loss of half the delegation, plus a boycott preventing candidates from campaigning in the state. The 11 Florida DNC members voted for that penalty. With Florida's primary then still set in mid-March, "I don't think anyone envisioned any impact on Florida," said Mitch Ceasar, DNC member and Broward County party chairman.

Initially, Florida Democrats, who had wanted an earlier date for years, favored the idea of January. They assumed that because Florida was a key presidential battleground, the DNC rule would not be enforced. State party Chairman Karen Thurman told the Tribune in November 2006, "I don't see any downside to it."

A Democratic senator, Jeremy Ring, D-Parkland, even sponsored an initial version of the bill.

"There was a miscalculation that because we're Florida, that's going to trump everything," Katz said.

But as the legislative session began in March 2007, DNC officials issued warnings of strict enforcement of their rule. "They needed to make an example, or they'd have had a rush of other states doing the same thing," Katz said.

DNC Chairman Howard Dean called and wrote to Florida legislators, urging them to vote no, as did Thurman. Democrats could not defeat the measure - Republicans held nearly a 2-to-1 majority in the Legislature - but if they opposed it, the DNC might be mollified, Thurman said."

Primary Predicaments

I have been critical of Florida bloggers for not speaking up on this issue. Yesterday I read the words of a major Florida blogger:

Florida did break the rules. So did the DNC. DNC rules specify that people who break this rule lose half their delegates, not all of them. Additionally, South Carolina moved their election ahead of DNC-stated guidelines in response to Florida and received no penalty, which violates the rules as well."
Florida Progressive Coalition Blog

I guess he did not read this DNC document. No, Ken, the DNC did not break the rules.

Under the DNC delegate selection rules, if a state party’s plan violates the rule with respect to timing, the number of its pledged delegates—those delegates awarded proportionally to candidates based on the primary or caucus results—is automatically reduced 50%(without any action by the RBC or DNC); no member of the DNC can attend the Convention as a delegate; no Member of Congress can attend the Convention as a delegate; and if applicable, the state’s Democratic governor can not attend the Convention as a delegate. In addition, any presidential candidate who campaigns in the state for the event in violation of the rules cannot receive any pledged delegates from that state. In addition to these automatic sanctions, the DNC
RBC has authority under the rules to impose additional sanctions, including further reductions in the state’s delegation.

Testimony to DNC Rules Committee

I will stop pointing out how Florida Democratic leaders are acting when they stop acting like that. They need to stay off the TV, they need to own up to their role in this.

[grantcart]

1. relentless pursuit of the facts

[madfloridian]

22. and...

it has made no difference whatsoever. Sad but true.

[MelissaB]

25. Yes, it has made a difference.

You have helped educate a lot of people on this board, and I appreciate it very much.

:hi:

[Obamanaut]

26. It has certainly made a difference to me. I am regularly amazed

by the scope of your information, how you have the time and patience to pursue and post all of this.

I appreciate what you have done. Thank you.

[demokatgurrl]

2. Very nice but

The.VOTERS. did.not. do. anything. to . deserve. not. to. vote.


Blame it on the superdelegates. Strip THEM of their votes.

[GOTV]

3. Yeah, they got screwed. But they aren't less screwed by pretending the results are legit....

... Some people didn't vote because they were told they didn't count.

[madfloridian]

4. Stop blaming the DNC and Dean.

The voters are not disenfranchised. 3 courts have decided that. So has a supreme court ruling.

[DrDan]

6. not disenfranchised . . . just that their votes do not count

[madfloridian]

8. Only toward delegates...

That is one of the FL party's talking points that really stuck like glue. They pulled it out of thin air.

[DrDan]

11. isn't that life in a representative government?

[madfloridian]

17. Don't you think FL should have voted no?

Even if it made no difference? That would have been good faith.

[DrDan]

21. yes I do

[Ganja Ninja]

18. Explain the difference because I can't see any.

[madfloridian]

20. Florida used the term to give it a racial component.

The DNC asked them to stop, and they just got worse. 3 courts have said the DNC was right.

But Florida leaders keep on.

Do you see the hatred in this post toward me for posting facts? That is the result of what Florida did.

[DrDan]

24. my point exactly . . .

[madfloridian]

27. Only toward delegates...your vote on the tax bill counted. It will count in Nov.

as well...unless you should choose not to take part.

[DrDan]

31. I will certainly take part . . . and I shall be voting for a Democrat . . .

just probably not one selected by the DNC . . .

[madfloridian]

32. Wait, what do you mean "selected by the DNC"? Doesn't make sense.

.

[DrDan]

37. Election strategy comes from the DNC . . .

[madfloridian]

40. Okay, that does it....

good by.

[DrDan]

46. and isn't the purpose of the elitist "superdelegate" to

put a level of control over the nominating process?

And did not the "superdelegate" concept come from the DNC?

[DrDan]

75. and by the way - if you happen to be listening . . .

Article 2 of the Charter of the Democratic Party states it is a duty of the DNC to fill vacancies for nominee for Pres and VP. And that is exactly what I stated earlier.

[lark]

77. The courts also decided Bush was winner in 2000

so I guess that settled it for you, as far as right and fair and counting votes correctly? Bet it didn't. Disenfranchisement is disenfranchisement regardless of who starts it or for what reason. Would you have supported a poll tax way back when, it was in writing, the courts approved, and everyone knew about it. It was still wrong, same way as the Bush ruling was wrong and the way Dems votes not counting now is WRONG. Some people will always stay at home, their cars die, they are their kids are sick, they can't get off work, but you don't discount the votes of those who made it to the polls.

[madfloridian]

86. You did not understand my post did you? Did you even read it?

Or is the hate just irrational now?

Florida could have kept all their delegates if they voted no.

They made a choice.

Don't worry, Victor to the rescue. The appeals court has urged him to refile on the basis of equal rights...so it will go forward.

The courts and Victor to the rescue.

[DrDan]

5. I am with you . . .

punish the party . . .punish the party leaders . . .

DO NOT PUNISH THE VOTERS!!!

And the elitist superdelegates . . . what a crock. The DNC just does not want to leave the nominee selection to the voters. They just have to exert their own power.

[madfloridian]

7. Let's toss all rules out the window and have anarchy.

.

[demokatgurrl]

9. Some rules are just plain stupid

and should be tossed out. Or at least, the morons who agreed to the stupid rules should suffer the consequences.

[madfloridian]

13. Then I should only obey rules of which I approve? Convenient.

.

[Ganja Ninja]

28. I think what she's saying is never take away the people's right

to have their votes count. Especially not for trivial things like election dates which is province of the state and not the Democratic party. Political parties have no business trying to dictate to states when they hold an election. If they wanted to do that they should have set a date for all the states and said "none before this date" and apply it to all states equally not to just two states.

[madfloridian]

29. OMG that is just what the DNC did.

You said:

If they wanted to do that they should have set a date for all the states and said "none before this date" and apply it to all states equally not to just two states.

And they did, and the date was Feb. 5th. And FL and MI were the only two who broke the rules. The other four were already ahead of that date in the pre-window with permission to be there.

Have you read anything I posted on this? I never cease to be amazed.

[Ganja Ninja]

30. Did you read what I said?

"Apply it equally to all states." Are New Hampshire, South Carolina and Iowa going to be allowed to seat their delegates at the convention?

They are so apparently rules are for some and not for others to follow.

[madfloridian]

33. No, that is not true. You don't get your own truth.

I quoted your words, and I answered you. That is what Florida has done...they have people making up stuff and refusing to see that those four states were already ahead of Feb. 5th.

We are no better than Bush and his lies when we act like this.

Florida has hurt all of us.

[Ganja Ninja]

38. Like I said if you're going to make a rule it should apply to

everyone. It shouldn't be "Well you can vote before Feb 5th and you can't." One rule for everyone no exceptions.

[madfloridian]

42. Oh, dear God....

good by to you too.

[Ganja Ninja]

45. and one more thing.

Why is it so easy to disenfranchise FL & MI and not New Hampshire, South Carolina & Iowa? Without checking I'd be willing to bet that either FL or MI has a greater population than those 3 states combined.

I'm not a Hillary fan I just think it was and arrogant and short sighted way of handling things.

[Nederland]

49. This is why

The DNC decided that it was in the party's best interest to start the contest with the following: Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina. Why are those states so special? Here is why. The states are geographically diverse (Midwest, Northeast, West and South) to get a sense of a candidates appeal across the country. The states are small to give candidates without a lot of cash a chance to compete. Additionally these states have a fair mix of racial and political make-ups. This was not a decision made arbitrarily, it was a well thought out plan designed to satisfy a desired criteria and produce a good candidate for us to run in the fall. It was a good, decent and fair plan.

Then Michigan and Florida fucked it all up.

[lark]

79. Agreed, the MI and FL pols F*d up

but the people of those states didn't. I agree with the previous poster who suggested removing the votes of FL superdelegates, but let the votes of the voters stand. It's a fair way to get out of this mess without totally alienating millions of people in these two important states.

[madfloridian]

85. Dean said on TV 6 times that he wanted to seat the delegates.

But that their votes had to be done in conjunction with the rules.

How many times does he have to say it? They are working on ways to resolve it.

Florida Dem leaders need to shut up now and let the compromises work.

[Nederland]

116. The people voted for those pols to represent them

I'm sorry, but you sound like a rich co-worker of mine that claimed he shouldn't have to pay more money in taxes because he "didn't vote for Bill Clinton". At some point people have to live with the decisions that their elected representatives make. Sometimes those decisions are ones that you don't agree with and sometimes those decisions harm you personally, but that is the way things work. The alternative is anarchy.

[progressoid]

112. Why? Because New Hampshire, South Carolina & Iowa didn't break the rules.

That seems to be really hard for some people to get.

[DrDan]

34. agree 100%

[DrDan]

10. no . . . lets get real

that sounds just like the GOP's argument about same-sex marriage - opens the door to people marrying their pets.

[shawn703]

120. This is an internal DNC issue

It has nothing to do with voter disenfranchisement. If the DNC had in their rules that the primaries and caucuses would be for show, and that final selection of the presidential and vice-presidential nominee rested in the hands of the Chair of the DNC, that would not be disenfranchisement either. It would be the DNC following their own rules on how they determine what names will appear on the ballots as the Democratic ticket. This is not preventing anyone from voting for whoever they choose for President. If you don't like who the DNC selected for their ticket, YOU ARE FREE TO VOTE FOR WHICHEVER CANDIDATE YOU CHOOSE. This is not preventing anyone from getting their names on the ballot. Any candidate for President who does not like who the DNC selected for their ticket IS FREE TO HAVE THEIR OWN NAME ON THE BALLOT, provided they do it in accordance with state law. Disenfranchisement is a violation of law, not of DNC rules. If you don't like the DNC rules, join the DNC and lobby to have the rules changed.

[madfloridian]

12. If you read the comments to my post....

about the stupid rules, about "disenfranchisement"...that is how it is here. Talking about the way things went down does not matter to anyone.

Florida has done its propaganda job well. Now all the Florida bloggers who went along with the charade are patting themselves on the back and saying see....now we will bring some change.

In actuality in a year when all things were working for us, now the hatred among Florida Democrats is working against us as a party. Truth does not matter anymore.

The word "disenfranchisement" was plucked out of thin air, and the DNC said they should be cautious using that word. Florida was trying to give it a racial component....to their shame.

[DrDan]

35. you seem to be suggesting the voters in Florida have no mind of their own

that they cannot discern fact from fiction . . .

And you hold the key to what is true - and cannot fathom anyone seeing the situation differently.

Sorry - but some just see it differently than you - get over it.

[People4Change]

48. Hillary's camp is the one pushing "disenfranchisement"

I live in Florida, and I can speak about what really happened here. The FL Democrats, wanting more power, decided to push for moving up the primary date of FL even though they knew the consequences from the DNC. They all thought (wrongly) that the DNC would cave because FL is so big.

Jeremy Ring, a DEMOCRAT FL senator from Ft. Lauderdale, initiated the proposed date change. One of Ring's campaign promises to voters in his campaign was that he would work to move up FL's primary date. The Republicans were more than happy to go along with Ring's proposal.

Once the FL Dems realized the DNC was serious about the punishment for the violation, they still went forward and many were quoted in FL newspapers as saying they felt the DNC would back down before the convention.

ALL of the Democratic party candidates, including Hillary Clinton, agreed to abide by the DNC ruling regarding the FL and MI primaries. She made no complaints at that time about FL being disenfranchised, she was even recorded as saying FL didn't count.

The reason for the huge turnout at the primary in FL was because the HOMEOWNERS in FL were voting on a very important amendment to the state constitution that would increase the homeowners' homestead exemptions, decreasing their property taxes. They were NOT flocking to the polls to vote for Hillary even though their votes didn't count.

The people that were disenfranchised, if you will, were the FL democrats that do NOT own homes -- mainly younger Democrats and minorities. They stayed home because they believed the DNC when it said the votes wouldn't count.

Since the primary, the FL Democrats have had several options to fix the problem, including holding caucuses, but have rejected all of them. Some were rejected due to cost or logistics, Hillary Clinton said she would not accept a caucus. The FL Dems, by their statements and actions, still seem to hold onto a belief that the DNC will relent and allow the delegates to attend the convension. THAT explains why nothing has been done.

I, as a Florida Democrat am angry at:
1) the FL Democrats who played chicken with our votes and lost
2) Hillary Clinton for trying to manipulate the rules NOW because she needs the votes
3) the DNC for letting Hillary Clinton incorrectly use the FL primary mess as a campaign slogan for herself, blaming Obama because there was not a revote
4) the media for allowing Hillary Clinton's accusations blaming Obama for disenfranchisement to be repeated over and over again without explaining the actual facts

Will I stay home in November because of the blunders by the FL Dems and DNC? Hell no. Will I vote for Hillary Clinton? Hell no. Will I work to change the process in FL and go after the FL Dems responsible? Hell yes.

[1trackmindGOP]

81. Thank you and that is exactly the correct course of action

Those that caused the problem should ultimately suffer the punishment from the voters...teach them a hard lesson.

[lark]

82. I live in FL too

but am not big on either Obama or Clinton so am not taking a position to favor either candidate. I'm taking a position of honoring votes - period the end. So you are saying it's OK to disenfranchise voters, because we weren't smart enough to vote for the person you favored? You know damn well that if the shoe were on the other foot, Obama would be screaming "disenfranchisement, let my people's votes count" from the highest rooftop, along with most of this board. It makes me sad when counting votes becomes a partisan witch hunt. So many Dems seem to have lost all sense of values or proportion in their mania.

[madfloridian]

97. Using the "you took my vote" meme is really a terrible tactic.

It is the one the FL party used when they sent emails around saying to stop donations to the DNC.

[Ganja Ninja]

14. Florida broke the rules I understand and agree that we can't ..

change the rules now. However the DNC should not have made the rule disenfranchising FL & MI. It was a stupid move and the result is the current party infighting and the people of two states are not having their voices heard. It was just plain bad policy. Democratic party members are not in total control of either states legislatures and the party punished the rank and file party members for something they didn't control. If it had been handled differently we wouldn't have this problem hanging over our heads. It looks bad and is bad for the Democratic party and I blame the party leaders for it.

[madfloridian]

16. What the hell do you think "good faith" meant?? Did you read my post?

If Florida had made an effort to fight, they would not have lost their delegates....oh never mind.

[cameozalaznick]

67. Dude... FL & MI "disenfranchised" themselves

by holding primaries that the DNC said would not count toward delegates. These primaries are not about votes. They're about DELEGATES. Who has the most. FL & MI get zero delegates because they didn't play by the rules.

[lark]

83. I so agree with your points

[Nederland]

117. NOBODY HAS BEEN DISENFRANCHISED

If you want to vote for someone in the general election come the fall, vote for them. If their name is not on the ballot, write it in. Stop this bullshit about how you've been disenfranchised because you can still vote for whoever the fuck you want to come November.

[Ganja Ninja]

118. DISENFRANCHISED FROM THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY

And you know damn well what I meant so stop this bullshit about we weren't disenfranchised. How disingenuous can you be!

[Nederland]

122. You do not have a constitutional right

...to vote in a primary. If you disagree with the way the Democratic Party has decided to choose its candidate, leave the party.

[Scurrilous]

15. Thanks for the info.

K & R :thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

19. The comments are ugly and vicious...just like real life in Florida now.

I actually think we might lose in November because of just plain hatred spurred by the party leaders here toward the national party, Obama, and Dean.

[DrDan]

36. "ugly and vicious" because some disagree with you?

I do not read the posts as "ugly and vicious" . . . just a different point of view.

[madfloridian]

39. So you don't think Florida had to act in good faith and vote no?

Instead of voting 115 to 1 and trying to crash the fundraising of the national party?

Because all that figures in.

The mindless parroting of the "don't take my votes" and yelling "disenfranchisement".....shows that even when one side is right and one is wrong.....the one that is wrong gets all the attention.

[verges]

107. It's ugly and viscious

if they don't vote Democratic in November, and McCain gets into office.

[lark]

87. I think we might lose too

because of the DNC's silly decision that their rules are more important that the voters in two large states. In the past, the DNC has NEVER taken away the delegates from any state, no matter if they broke the rules or not. This time, for whatever reason, rules are king and F* the voters. FL Dems have taken notice and are pissed, rightly I might add. Dem party has such a talent for self destructing, sad to see them do it again. I will vote Dem, no matter what, but I certainly will never give another dime to the DNC and I gave, for me, quite a bit in the last election cycle. I've had to really talk and talk to my kids to get them to agree to vote Dem and not sit this one out due to their anger at all Dem pols.

[madfloridian]

96. Then let them sit it out. It's a free country after all.

[MelissaB]

23. K&R because the truth will set you free.

Well, after reading the comments above, I'm not so sure. :evilgrin:

[MilesColtrane]

44. Misdirected wrath.

It seems to be a common theme in this country the past 7 plus years.

Somebody attacks you, you attack whoever's handy.

[MelissaB]

47. Please clarify.

Are you saying I'm attacking someone?

[MilesColtrane]

58. No, not you.

Indeed, the truth hasn't set some people free.

Several posters on this thread are attacking the DNC and Howard Dean when they should be cleaning house of their state party leaders for screwing them.

Similar to going after Iraq even though it had nothing to do with 9/11.

[MelissaB]

59. Thanks! Much appreciated.

:hi:

[lark]

88. All of them are complicit

Just because I will not vote for a FL state incumbent Dem, doesn't mean that Dean's not being an a** too. I don't get a chance to vote him out too or I would.

[madfloridian]

94. If the DNC had not sanctioned the two states...Hillary would be nominee by now.

So let's just be honest.

Blunt, honest. This way someone else had a chance to compete.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

134. If the states had followed the rules, Florida would have had their primary in March

and gee whiz, Florida's representatives wouldn't have f'd up everything.

[DrDan]

55. oh good heavens - you too?

There cannot be any disagreement here? There cannot be another view of what is happening?

Is that what you are suggesting?

[MelissaB]

60. Haha! You are really funny.

[Debi]

41. K & R again mad

are you providing your fact checking to your local media?

[madfloridian]

43. They know...so do the local Democrats and others. They do not care.

That is the tragedy.

[DrDan]

54. oh c'mon . . . give me a break - what do you mean local D's do not care?

Most care - I can pretty much guarantee that.

Perhaps the D's see it a bit differently than you.

[MelissaB]

61. Question: Are you from Florida?

I know Madfloridian is.

Disclosure: My profile doesn't tell that I'm from Michigan.

[DrDan]

62. I am from Florida - the Daytona Beach area

[MelissaB]

64. Thanks

[Deep13]

50. "They?" If you do not mean the voters, then I remain unpersuaded.

[madfloridian]

51. Whatever.

Okay.

[suston96]

52. Those rules violate the Democratic Party Charter....

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:i1Dy8P2UOcoJ:www.democrats.org/pdfs/charter.pdf+Democratic+Party+Charter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Section 4.

The National Convention shall be composed of delegates equally divided between men and
women. The delegates shall be chosen through processes which:

(a) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate and include affirmative action programs toward that end,

(b) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who
participate in the Presidential nominating process,

[DrDan]

56. thank you!

one of the cornerstones of the party.

And Dean and the DNC were willing to violate this section.

Punish the state party leaders - not the voters.

[MelissaB]

63. Dated 2003

[suston96]

65. 2003? So, come up with a more recent version that changes what I quoted...! nt

[MelissaB]

69. Merely pointing out the date.

I have no idea if it's in effect now or not.

[suston96]

95. Latest Democratic Party Charter is 2005......

Go here for a link to the link: http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/01/dnc_charter_and.php Go down to link to Democratic Party Charter link.PDF.

It is the inalterable an d inviolable Democratic Party dogma that all members will be guaranteed full and unbiased participation in the nominating process. Change that, and it will be the end of the Democratic Party.

That dogma is being violated right now - and behold, the Democratic Party of 2008 is badly and perhaps permanently and fatally divided.

[DrDan]

66. so we no longer care about hearing from all members of the

Democratic Party?

We no longer want to protect equality in voting?

[MelissaB]

70. Your state party (and mine, too) changed the rules.

I hope you're giving them an earfull.

[DrDan]

72. I have certainly made my thought known . . .

I blame both the state and the DNC. They should never, ever have allowed a rule that took away the votes of their members.

[DrDan]

68. current wording

"Establish standards and rules of procedure to afford all members of the Democratic Party full, timely, and equal opportunities to participate in decisions concerning selection of the candidates, the formulation of policy, and the conduct of other Party affairs without prejudice . . ."

[MelissaB]

71. Evidently our states chose not to play by the rules

or worry about wording.

[DrDan]

73. nor did the DNC

[MelissaB]

74. We disagree on that and will not change each other's mind. n/t

[progressoid]

114. "standards and rules of procedure" that FL & MI agreed to and then knowingly broke.

Article 2:

Section 2. The National Convention shall be the highest authority of the Democratic Party, subject to the provisions of this Charter. The National Convention shall recognize the state and other Parties entitled to participate in the conduct of the national affairs of the Democratic Party, including its conventions, conferences and committees. State Party rules or state laws relating to the election of delegates to the National Convention shall be observed unless in conflict with this Charter and other provisions adopted pursuant to authority of the Charter, including the resolutions or other actions of the National Convention. In the event of such conflict with state laws, state Parties shall be required to take provable positive steps to bring such laws into conformity and to carry out such other measures as may be required by the National Convention or the Democratic National Committee.

***************************************************

These states knowingly and deliberately made laws in conflict with the National charter and have not made any 'provable positive steps to bring such laws into conformity'. Evidently the standards and rules do not apply to them.

[DrDan]

119. "unless in conflict with this charter"

which disenfranchising party voters certainly is

[progressoid]

123. Right - By defying the charter, the FL/MI leadership disenfranchised their own primary voters.

The leadership of these two states screwed their own constituents. They knew the rules and broke them anyway. Maybe they thought they could get away with it (the Republicans got away with half of it).

[DrDan]

127. it was a crappy rule -

having any rule that disenfranchises voters is a crappy rule.

I hold the state and the DNC equally at fault. One of the foundations found in this charter is that voters are treated equally in their voice when it comes to selecting a candidate. The DNC allowed a rule that violated that - and the state supported it.

And the voters got screwed.

And there are too many at this site who are willing to support this disenfranchisement - at the expense of fellow D's. Read the posts in this thread. If there was a rule taking away the voting rights of women and minorities - these followers would be standing in line chanting "it's the rule - it's the rule".

Sad

[progressoid]

128. Crappy analogy

"If there was a rule taking away the voting rights of women and minorities..."
Bogus. This issue is nothing like taking away the voting rights of women and minorities. These states had the vote but forfeited it. If I steal a car and go to jail - I forfeit my vote. You break the rules - you pay a price. That's the way the system works. And the system only works if the rules are enforced.

The rule doesn't disenfranchise voters. Breaking it does.

I'm not supporting disenfranchisement. I'm supporting having a functioning system. And a functioning system needs rules and regulations. All 50 states signed on to this (and territories etc). Allowing rogue states to make it up as we go along will only harm us in the short and long term. If FL/MI are allowed to get away with it this time, imagine what will happen in 2112?.

But what the hell, screw rules. Who needs them, right!

One last thing. You said "One of the foundations found in this charter is that voters are treated equally in their voice when it comes to selecting a candidate." If two states are allowed to defy that very charter, how is this eqaul treatment? How is this fair to the other 48 states?

[DrDan]

129. listen to your own argument

If I steal a car and go to jail - I forfeit my vote. You break the rules - you pay a price.

Exactly. And I did not break any rules. You support punishing me by taking away my vote for the action of others. And don't give me this "vote 'em out" crap - no time for that. My voice is not being heard based on the action of power-grabbing party leaders - at both the national and state level.

And I am disenfranchised - so the rule disenfranchises party members.

Functioning system? This is a functioning system? You really believe we have a functioning system?

So what will happen in 2012 (I assume you really do not mean 2112). Anarchy? Same crap as GOP when they discuss same-sex marriage - opens the door to people marrying their pets. Same ol' lame argument.

So you see taking away the votes of a couple of million Democrats as equality? My goodness. And exactly how does offering a voice to Florida and Michigan become unfair to the other states? I fail to understand.

I am only one of many many pissed-off Florida voters. This is not good for the party. EVERYONE needs to be included to resolve this mess. The voters did not create it - they/we should not be paying price.

[progressoid]

138. The car reference was meant as a broad example of a penalty

Apparenly there should be no penalty. :shrug:

Functioning system? Clearly not. Fair? Hardly - never has been. Anarchy in the system? Maybe.

I'd be pissed too if my "leaders" did this. But chucking out what little organization is left isn't the answer. I doubt the the 30 or 40 million voters of the other 48 states are going feel all that thrilled to know that their following the rules means zilch.

Of course this is all mostly moot anyway since a re-vote is not going to happen and finding a way to fairly count the existing vote is a bit...well...awkward.

[DrDan]

140. your example was perfect

of course there should be a penalty - but . . . penalize those responsible - and that is not the voters . . .penalize the state leaders - but count our votes . . . that has been my point for months . . ..

The rule was crappy in that those responsible were not held accountable - the voters were . . .

[DrDan]

141. your example was perfect . ..

of course there can be a penalty - but . . . penalize those responsible - not the voters. Penalize the state party, penalize the state party leaders . . . but do not penalize the voters. Count the votes. It was the actions of the party leaders, not the voters, that "broke the rules".

[progressoid]

115. Bullshit. Florida and Michigan party leadership violated the Charter.

They would have had "full, timely and equal opportunity" had they not decided to break the very rules they (and the other 48 states) agreed to.

Article Two

Section 2. The National Convention shall be the highest authority of the Democratic Party, subject to the provisions of this Charter. The National Convention shall recognize the state and other Parties entitled to participate in the conduct of the national affairs of the Democratic Party, including its conventions, conferences and committees. State Party rules or state laws relating to the election of delegates to the National Convention shall be observed unless in conflict with this Charter and other provisions adopted pursuant to authority of the Charter, including the resolutions or other actions of the National Convention. In the event of such conflict with state laws, state Parties shall be required to take provable positive steps to bring such laws into conformity and to carry out such other measures as may be required by the National Convention or the Democratic National Committee.

Not only were their laws in conflict, but they were deliberately and knowingly in conflict.

It's ironic. In an effort to have more impact on the election, they broke the rules. Had they followed the rules, their primary votes would have had more impact than ever in recent history.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

135. Hillary's advisor Howard Ickes voted FOR the sanctions

he is on the committee that made the rules and that voted TO sanction Florida and Michigan.

[tomreedtoon]

53. You hit on a larger truth, Madfloridian.

You said in your post something that hit me like a mugger outside Pleasure Island...

It is like there is no truth in this situation, that everyone gets to make their own.

That perfectly explains the contention between the Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama activists that has torn apart DU in the last year. Each group of activists are living in their own realities, which deny the validity of the other group's. Neither group has the imagination or the courage to mentally step in the other group's shoes, or to see things from their perspective.

And, although it doesn't apply to the Florida business - since, as I've often said, there IS no Florida Democratic Party, so there are no opponents to the DNC - it does suggest a way out of the Clinton/Obama Blogger War.

Everybody needs to switch sides, if only for a few minutes, and see things from the other side. Honestly, truly and without cynicism. I remember a Twilight Zone episode where, on the last day of World War II, an American who wanted to assault a Japanese squad suddenly changed bodies with the Japanese commander. That's what needs to be done on DU. But I somehow doubt that many people have the courage or imagination to do it.

[DrDan]

57. yes - and that also means the MadFloridian try to see the perspective

of others - rather than simply dismissing their views because they are at odds with his.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

113. Maybe she already has and still hold her view to be correct(and i agree with her view myself)

your statement somewhat reminds me of one thing about media pundits we tend to decry on this site, how they tend to show both sides as equally important or correct when its blatantly obvious that one side is correct and the other is a lie(they do it to seem neutral/balanced)

For some reason your post reminded me of that stance, no offense meant and I'm sure my view is likely a bit biased in this case.

[sybylla]

76. It's almost like the media is intent on helping the Florida Dems implode

By the time the two of them finish with the primary debacle, even the hard core liberals will have a hard time wanting to be part of the Democratic Party in Florida.

[bigtree]

78. the folks who voted did. All this scorn is misdirected on the 'people' of Florida

It's the state officials who have disenfranchised them.

[madfloridian]

80. I do not "scorn" the people....I "scorn" the leaders. I think that is clear.

If you read any of the links....I point out specific Florida people, I say "Florida leaders".

[lark]

89. Scorn the leaders

but f* the voters? Not nice, fair or democratic.

[madfloridian]

84. I challenge Florida leaders to step up, accept responsibility, and stop the anger.

The anger that is directed toward Dean, Obama, and the national party is going to hurt all of us.

We talked to 3 people this week who are for Obama now. Two were Clinton previously, one is a life long Republican. He offered his opinion. We did not bring it up.

But far too many are falling for what the Florida Democratic leaders are saying on TV.

They voted for the bill 115 to 1. They tried to crash DNC fundraising. The party leaders themselves sent out emails attacking Dean.

Now they are trying to make Obama the bad guy.

They need to stop it.

[DemVet]

90. Howard Dean SHOULD resign.

Particularly if a loss in FL and/or MI costs us the GE.

Great job, Howie. :grr:

[madfloridian]

91. I give up. Propaganda won big time.

Big tough talk works.

You win.

[MelissaB]

92. rofl

OMG!

[madfloridian]

93. Well, it sounds big and tough. Tough talk.

:shrug:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

98. Who the hell cares who did what. I voted.

Count my vote.

[JVS]

100. You participated it what was already known to be an invalid election.

You might as well have been answering a gallup poll

[Tommy_Carcetti]

101. I'm sorry, if there's an election, I vote

I don't go to my DNC rule book first.

My mother's family didn't risk their life fleeing the Soviet Union to come to America just to see me not vote in an election I'm eligible to vote in.

In 2004, by the time Florida had its primary, John Kerry was already the presumptive nominee. It didn't matter. I voted anyways.

[JVS]

102. It wasn't an election

[Tommy_Carcetti]

110. I'm sorry, there were names of candidates on the ballot.

That pretty well qualifies it as an election to me.

Funny how disenfranchisement is suddenly okay when your candidate is the one to benefit.

(Oh yeah, and for the record, I voted for neither Hillary or Obama. But I still want my vote counted.)

[psychmommy]

103. this situation was all over the national news.

you guys are all whining now but where were you when your leaders were making amendments. you guys sat back and didn't say a peep. mad has been out there since this was going down, while it was going down. she has been putting the word out trying to make a difference. when your voice was needed it was on mute. now you wanna complain that the dnc has disenfranchised you. dr dean has done everything but back flips trying to get your party leaders to come to the table-before the election and after. fl party leaders were scoffing at him. your delegates don't deserve to be seated at the convention. i bet no one will try to leapfrog during the next presidential cycle. thanks florida for another presidential race f_ck up. it is the fault of the people when we don't hold our elected leaders accountable.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

124. Why did I have to object?

And am I so powerful that I could unilateraly change what was done anyways? And what is it of the ordinary citizen that cares or should care as to the order of state primary elections anyways?

Do you realize how stupid you sound? Or are you just so blinded that the ends will always justify the means.

Count my vote.

[madfloridian]

126. Pretty pathetic to have to call people "stupid" to make your point.

Pretty sad when all you can say is "count my vote."

[Tommy_Carcetti]

132. I think "count my vote" sums it up pretty nicely, if you ask me.

Of course, by your logic, if the elected officials during the Jim Crow era didn't repeal prejudicial poll taxes and poll tests, too bad, so sad. As long as it gets your guy elected, that's what matters.

[madfloridian]

139. I don't have to call people "stupid" to make my points.

.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

144. Arguing that people who are of legal age and ability to vote shouldn't have their vote counted...

...is stupid. I call it like I see it.

It is not the traditional Democratic way of thinking.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

125. Why did I have to object?

And am I so powerful that I could unilateraly change what was done anyways? And what is it of the ordinary citizen that cares or should care as to the order of state primary elections anyways?

Do you realize how stupid you sound? Or are you just so blinded that the ends will always justify the means.

Count my vote.

[psychmommy]

130. i am neither stupid nor blind.

you could have called your representative and made your voice heard. mad blogs relentlessly she is doing something. you could have written an editorial. you could have talked to other people and deluged your reps w/calls and letters. you are no victim. your reps did not rep you well. the dnc is still trying to help the state of fl and the politicians are still doing nothing. instead of whining on du-call your reps and tell them to get off their behinds and do something. they dug this hole, now tell them to dig you out. it is not the rest of the country's fault.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

131. Okay, here's the thing....

There are tons and tons of issues way more important than the date of the primary election with which one can preoccupy one's self. Iraq, health care, the economy, etc. If I'm going to contact my representative or write a letter to the editor, there are a lot more worthy topics to do so. Some archaic rule of the DNC about the order of primaries is barely anything to protest.

Like I said, if there's an election, I vote. Now count my vote.

[psychmommy]

142. you are saying that it didn't matter to you then.

suddenly the rest of the country should care now. all of those things are important-but if your vote didn't matter and you knew it wouldn't-then how could you effect any of those other issues. we all knew the score-this was national news. now you want to have a temper tantrum because you can't get your way. your reps knowingly broke the rules. your silence was taken as affirmation. you knew then your vote didn't count. because you stomp your feet doesn't mean that now your vote counts.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

143. I'm not the one who voted to disenfranchise me or millions of others

The DNC did that.

I could just as well say that you were negligently silent as the DNC voted to disenfranchise Florida and Michigan voters. Of course, when it's not your vote to be counted, why should you care? :sarcasm:

[psychmommy]

145. no i sent the dnc money.

i sent a note requesting that they stand strong on this issue. if fl & mi aren't made examples of, then we will have the problem of all the states trying to leapfrog ahead. i support the rules of my party and i support the dnc.
your reps were there when the rules were made. they voted to pass these rules as well. your reps gambled with your right to vote and everyone lost. stop blaming us for your crappy and selfish reps actions.
our party leaders need to stand behind the dnc and stop this propaganda war in its tracks. florida was not a victim but a wiling participant in this fiasco.

[orleans]

99. k&r n/t

[tammywammy]

104. Another excellent post MadFloridian

:)

Recommended.

[Cha]

105. I bet you're really tired of this crap

coming from those dissemblers who hold office in Florida. Thanks for helping us understand this better. Dean has to come out on top here.

[merkins]

106. K&R ...Hang Tough MadFloridian

I'm sure it tries one's patience, but we are lucky to have you hold the line and keep us aware on whats going down in your neck of the woods .. many thanks!

[fadedrose]

108. Agree & Kick

[gristy]

109. Thank you, madfloridian

I'm glad that you are not leaving this topic alone. Your dedication is an inspiration (and an education!) to us all. :hug:

[crankychatter]

111. Keep up the great work, Mad

100%

[snooper2]

121. On a side note...

Do people talk about this a lot in Florida? Why is voting always so fucked up in your state, compared to the other 49?

[Tippy]

133. Well there goes my Blood Pressure again.....

If I have a stroke I am having my family file a law suit naming The Clintons and the State of Florida and Minnesota as the reason I kicked the bucket........

[madfloridian]

137. I know the feeling.

:hi:

[Kurovski]

136. Kick. (nt)

[madfloridian]

146. Kicking this because I see more misrepresentation going on today.

I am amazed.