There She Goes Again: Hillary Reminds us Yet Again that Pledged Delegates Can Always Switch.

[MadBadger]

Hillary: Pledged Delegates "Just Like" Supers — They Can Switch
By Eric Kleefeld - March 25, 2008, 12:09AM
During an interview with the Philadelphia Daily News editorial board, Hillary Clinton again pitched the idea that she can close the gap in the pledged delegate count — by pointing out that pledged delegates can always switch their votes.

"And also remember that pledged delegates in most states are not pledged," said Clinton. "You know, there is no requirement that anybody vote for anybody. They’re just like super-delegates."

Hillary previously hinted at such a strategy about two weeks ago, while over a month ago the campaign had to deny reports that they would attempt such a thing.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/hillary_pledged_delegates_just.php

When she says things like this, does she realize how desperate she looks? Its one of those things that you do but just dont talk about because it plays right into Obama's theme that she will say and do anything to get elected. Multiple times now this strategy has come up and her campaign always says that they wont do it...but she continues to propose it as a possibe strategy. Oy vay.

[slinkerwink]

1. it just looks very stupid

[ThatBozGuy]

2. And they will just not the way she is hoping, she is the only one that has experienced delegate

Both in her losing one of hers to conversion to Mr Obama and 6 of Mr Edwards to Mr Obama

[Orsino]

19. The candidate that's running behind needs to remind us of that.

If she pulls off some miraculous delegate wins, it'll even be relavant.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. Several great presidents in the past have won from super delegates

This is nothing new. It is playing by the rules. I thought you Obamites liked playing by the rules? Or is that only when it suits you?

[MadBadger]

4. The talk here is about trying to get pledged delegates to switch, not supers

[flpoljunkie]

17. TPM's Marshall follows this by noting that pledged delegates are the hardest core supporters.

(Emphasis mine.)

03.24.08 -- 11:30PM
Maximize the Confusion

Will Bunch was at the Daily News editor board session with Hillary Clinton today. And in the process of asking her a delegate number crunching question she told him, "And also remember that pledged delegates in most states are not pledged. You know, there is no requirement that anybody vote for anybody. They’re just like superdelegates."

Technically this is true. In fact, I believe that all of the delegates at the Democratic Convention can do whatever they want. They may have been elected to be a Clinton or Obama delegate. And they're 'pledged' to vote for that candidate. But once they're on the floor of the hall they actually free to do whatever they want.

But it's basically a non-point because campaigns don't choose just anyone to serve as a delegate. They pick the absolute hardest core supporters of their candidate. So the odds of any delegate getting flipped are basically nil.

It's also another example of the fog of nonsense that has increasingly enveloped the Clinton campaign. Spin is one thing. And it's not a bad thing. But to have utility it must be tethered to some relevant facts, some kind of reality. Otherwise it just descends into ridiculousness. There's always some new clever but inane argument to twist 'up' into something at least somewhat resembling 'down'. Or if not that, enough to keep your head spinning long enough not to notice for a while that 2 and 2 still equals 4. It's like getting snowed by a precocious adolescent or maybe Jon Lovitz's Tommy Flanagan.

Usually this malarkey comes out of the mouth of Mark Penn. But it seems to be infectious.

--Josh Marshall

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/185389.php

[lapfog_1]

8. Start naming a few... and try to remember that

Super Delegates are a Democratic Party term and only came into existence in 1972 convention.

So... your options are Jimmy Carter and, wait for it, Bill Clinton.

[Jim Lane]

46. Not Carter -- his election predated the establishment of superdelegates

The first election cycle for which something close to the current superdelegate rule was in effect in the Democratic Party was 1984.

As for the Republicans, they've had no great presidents in my memory, but the term "superdelegate" is usually applied only to Democrats anyway. (The Republicans, like the Democrats, give automatic delegate slots to all members of their national committee. They don't have the additional slots for current or former elected officials, though.)

[boobooday]

11. When was that?

I'm curious, since the superdelegates have only been around since the 80's. Whose nomination was decided by superdelegates?

[NeedleCast]

15. Yeah...how'd that work out last time in the GE?

[greguganus]

16. LOL! Name them. n/t

[Stephanie]

28. Really? Which ones.

Please name them.

[DemVet]

5. Actually, Hillary is correct about delegates....they can switch. n/t

[MadBadger]

6. Nobody is saying she isnt correct, but it is extremely stupid to bring this up publicly

especially after it has been brought up twice and each time the Clinton campaign said they would not do this.

[Texas Hill Country]

37. why wouldnt you bring it up? it is a fact.

[closeupready]

40. For starters, she promised NOT to go after Obama's pledged delegates.

n/t

[RC]

7. I wonder how much and what kind of pressure the Hillary team is applying

for the delegates to switch?

[thoughtcrime1984]

9. I am trying to get to Denver as a delegate

I highly doubt I'll get there, but if I did, I would not budge from Obama- short of a dead hooker being found in his trunk. I hope I didn't give the Clinton campaign any ideas. Just kidding, folks.

[C_U_L8R]

10. Yeah but they are switching to Obama

doh!

[WDIM]

22. Wouldn't that be something

Hillary delegates switch to Obama. She'd call foul! :D

[CoffeeCat]

31. Pledged delegates are switching away from Hillary...

My longer post about this, is down lower in this thread.

Obama gained 9 additional delegates in Iowa (two weekends ago, at our Iowa County
Convention)--because he gained some of Edwards supporters who went for him and some
of Hillary's pledged delegates changed their minds and arrived at the Iowa County convention
and stood for Obama.

They did this because they are turned off by her dirty campaigning and also because
she leaves a wake of personal insults--as she exits these caucus states. She degrades
and lies about the caucus process--and insults many people in those states who work
so hard to make the caucus process fair and legitimate.

It's really ignorant of Hillary to degrade an entire state election process--which is
made up of DELEGATES--who will have the power to vote for you (or not).

I talked with a couple of people who had caucused for Hillary and were then elected
as Hillary delegates, but they switched their support to Obama and stood for him at
the County Convention. There were others at the County Convention who heard the same
story--from ex-Hillary supporters too.

So YES, these pledged delegates can switch, but they will most likely switch to Obama.
No Obama supporters are going for Hillary, that's for sure!

As I said in my other post, my guess is that other states have their conventions coming up soon--and
she's going to cry foul when she loses pledged delegates--and she'll try to insist that Obama
is poaching them. When, in fact, she's losing support because of her own poor choices.

She's trying to get the "pledged delegates can switch" meme into the public consciousness, so when
it becomes apparent that Obama is gaining switched delegates--she can whine and cry about it--instead
of facing her own failures.

[VolcanoJen]

41. I was SO proud of what you guys did at your state convention in Iowa!

It was a very important, and often overlooked, sign that the party hardcores have had it up to here with the Clintons and their gaming of the system.

And, isn't Iowa one of those states where Obama beats McCain in head-to-head polling, but McCain beats Clinton?

And how come Bill didn't mention that in yesterday's finger-wagging fuzzy math session in Indiana? :-)

[charlie]

12. From the lady who was oh-so-concerned

about the "disenfranchisement" inherent in the caucus system.

Someone should remind her that electors in the electoral college aren't legally bound to their commitments either. If she faces McCain and he massages a winning margin of flips, I'm sure she'll shit 8 shades of purple and we'll have to listen to her squall about disenfranchisement again.

[madrchsod]

13. i know that ..so what is her point?

i also know she "bought" a super delegate. now if someone can find a super delegate that obama has "bought" then i will retract my complaint.

[Zodiak]

21. They both do it

It has become a tradition to woo superdelegates with pledged support added to the campaign coffers of the superdelegates for their next election.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/02/superdelegates.html

Obama has to break the loyalty of many superdelegates who owe the Clnton favors from over the years when their allies controlled the party. And Obama is winning that battle, amazingly (it is not easy to overcome many years of patronage and glad-handing).

[Mezzo]

14. you act like she's changing TEH RULES, she's not

so if she wins that way, she did not break anything except Obama's attempt to disenfranchise Michigan and Florida.

[Kokonoe]

18. From the conventions I remember, the delegates are proud

to cast their vote. the enthusiasm is electrifying and is on national TV.

Why would anyone say "I love Obama, and he won, but sorry my vote is Hillary".

I'm sorry my vote is for Hillary. Is not going to win the GE.

[crankychatter]

20. I don't think she cares about ANYthing at this point

burning down the house

whatever she is it's not a faithful democrat

look for her to go independent when she realizes the nomination is lost to her

[ileus]

23. 50 states in 2008...only with Hillary. What better reason to change their vote?

[Vinca]

24. Hillary is turning into a caricature. Something between a used car

salesman and Ron Popeil. Has she no self respect?

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. I don't support those types of comments

In the abstract it is true and can even be proper if before the convention one of our candidates REALLY got caught in a no nonsense scandal, like a federal arrest for corruption - something like what happened to Spiro Agnew back in the 70's. She is techncially correct, but she is not being helpful to herself by mentioning it.

[GoldieAZ49]

26. It is true, and it has been the party rules

so what is the problem with the facts being put out there?

This is a delegate race, the delegates haven't voted yet.

[MadBadger]

27. This Idea has been brought up twice, and both times her campaign squashed that strategy

So why is she bringing it up yet again?

[GoldieAZ49]

32. because it means it isn't mathematically impossible for her to win

It is also important for the democratic party in particular and Americans in general to know that.

Until the delegates vote everything is still in play. A lot can happen, and has, between the primary and the delegates voting.

[CoffeeCat]

36. I'll tell you why Hillary is doing this....

Here is the most likely reason that Hillary is working hard to roll out the
"pledged delegates can switch" notion into the public consciousness.

Two weeks ago, Iowa held it's County Convention. Obama gained 9 additional
delegates at this County Convention!!! I don't think most people understand
the implications of this--and how significant it will be if this trend continues
in the caucus states.

Here's the "Reader's Digest" version of what happened.

Iowans caucused in early January. At the caucuses, delegates are elected to
represent the candidates at the County Conventions. In my precinct, Obama
won 4 delegates, Hillary won 2. Those delegates attend County Convention and
then vote for their candidate.

At the Iowa County Convention, some of Hillary's delegates (the ones selected
on caucus night) decided to stand for Obama. Many of the Edwards delegates
went with Obama too.

Hillary lost support among pledged delegates in Iowa because some of her supporters
were turned off enough by her antics--to switch to Obama.

My guess is that there must be some other caucus states who will be having their
County Conventions soon. Hillary's trying to get out in front of all of this "switching"
that will be happening to her in the near future .

She's throwing out the "pledged delegates can switch" meme--to get people rankled and to get
them debating about how it is unfair and underhanded.

Then, when the trend continues (in other states), she can insinuate that it is unfair or underhanded
and that Obama stole her delegates.

However, he isn't stealing them. He isn't lifting a finger. They're switching on her of their
own free will. She can't let this stand. She wants us all to be outraged about her suggestion
of "switching"---so when it continues to happen to her--she can look like the victim, instead
of the downward-spiraling candidate who can't even hold onto her own delegates.

That's what is happening...

[4themind]

43. Give this man/woman the "thinking outside of the box" reward

Looking at their potential plan, two steps ahead; good work

[InsultComicDog]

30. true dat

da rulz is da rulz...

[CoffeeCat]

29. Some pledged delegates have switched....AWAY FROM HILLARY!

So far, the only "pledged delegates" that have switched, have switched away from Hillary
and have moved to Obama.

I recently participated in the Iowa County Conventions. Those people who were selected as delegates during
the Iowa caucuses go on to vote as delegates at the Iowa County Convention.

Between the Iowa caucuses and the Iowa County Convention, Obama gained 9 delegates in Iowa! .
Many Hillary supporters who caucused for her and who were elected delegates for her at the caucus--showed up
to the Iowa County Convention and switched to Obama. Several of Edwards delegates went for Obama as well.

Hillary is right. Pledged delegates can switch. They are switching. More will probably switch, but not
to her.

Let's be very clear folks. Hillary knows this.

We'll see more switching, because Democrats are disgusted and revolted by the Clintons. Their dirty campaign and
distortions are part of that, but she's also trashed the states that hold caucuses.

Every time Hillary has lost a caucus, she shoots off her mouth about how unfair, disenfranchising and awful
caucuses are. Our state of Iowa has held caucuses for 100 years. Many politicians have won them. Most have lost.
Never has anyone tried to eviscerate the entire system and complain, until Hillary. She was fine with the caucus
system, until she lost.

When Hillary does this, she insults thousands of party leaders, activists and volunteers in each of these
states that hold caucuses. Many of these people are pledged delegates! These people drive people
to the caucuses, organize the caucuses, serve as observers, register people, call voters, etc. You can't degrade
entire states and their systems--and go off on some lie-base PR campaign--and come out ahead.

In effect, Hillary is "disenfranchising" her own pledged delegates. Wow.

Here's the key---- There are many states (including Iowa) that held caucuses. The caucus was only the
first step. Next, they'll hold County Conventions, District Conventions, State Conventions and then
it's on to Denver. Many Iowans switched from Clinton -- Obama between their caucus and their county convention, due
to Hillary turning off many delegates.

I bet this trend continues in other states, and I bet it continues in Iowa all the way up the Convention chain.

I'll be sure to let everyone know how this plays out. I'm a delegate at our district convention, which happens
in less than a month.

Hillary knows the pledged delegates can switch--but she also knows that they're moving away from her, not toward her.
She understands that very well.

My guess is that she very well understands this, and she's trying to goad the Obama campaign into making some
negative remark about her "pledged delegates can switch" remark. Then, when it becomes apparent that pledged
delegates are switching away from Hillary--she will accuse the Obama campaign of taking her pledged delegates.
She's just trying to spotlight this issue right now. So, when it happens--she can accuse the Obama camp of stealing
her pledged delegates.

The thing is...these delegates switch over of their own free will . No one "poaches" them or
works them over. Delegates walk into their County, District, State or National conventions with their
loyalties unknown. I walked into the door at the Iowa County Convention and I could have stood for anyone.

Mark my words...Hillary wants this "pledged delegates can switch" notion in the American consciousness
for a reason. My guess is that other caucus states will have their County Conventions within the next
several days--and as she loses delegates and support--due to Democrats turning away from her--she'll be
crying foul.

I guarantee that is what is going on.

[GoldieAZ49]

34. I thought those were Edwards delegates

and agree, the pledged delegates can change their mind of their own free will for whatever reason they want.

[4themind]

44. Please consider making a seperate OP with just this topic=nt

[Raffi Ella]

33. uh...they can.

You got a problem with that then you have a problem with the Democratic Party and Democracy itself.

Just because Obama has tried to frame the message one way doesn't change the FACTS. :)

[GoldieAZ49]

35. And the party cannot change the rules in the middle of an election

not that I think it will anyway.

[JimGinPA]

38. The Pledged Delegates Elected Are Chosen Supporters Of Each Candidate...

Not random voters. Good luck with trying to poach them.

[gasperc]

39. so Clinton's delegates can now switch to Obama?

Cool, thanks Hillary, we should be able to wrap this thing up by mid-April

[breakaleg]

42. Which is most likely what we will see happening. nt

[undeterred]

45. Yes, and the earth can decide to orbit around some other sun.

But I don't think its going to happen...

[Jim Lane]

47. The official rules of the Democratic Party address the subject

Rule 12.J: "Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them."

The rules are . This one appears on page 14 (which, because of the introductory material, is the 18th page of the 27-page .pdf document).

[bunnies]

48. This, imho, completely contradicts her stance on MI and FL.

How could someone be so concerned about disenfranchising voters from these two states... and at the same time not give a damn about disenfranchising voters all over the country.

Its completely and totally illogical.