It's brilliant, Bill and Hillary. Turning the FL and MI fiascos into Obama's fault....

[madfloridian]

as the two states stand idly by and allow themselves to used as pawns in your political games.

They are just as complicit as you are in letting your campaign use them as tools to make Barack Obama look bad.

The rules the party has put in place to choose its nominee are not the rules of the Clinton campaign and, just like the Obama campaign, we are doing what we can under those rules to secure the requisite number of delegates for the nomination. One way to avoid the situation described above is to figure out some way to honor the votes of Michigan and Florida, where there was record turnout. Counting the delegates in Florida and Michigan is a civil rights issue, and a solution needs to be figured out before the convention.

Never the hell mind that those two states deliberately and with malice broke the party rules. Never mind that my state sent press releases blaming the party chairman and trying to crash the DNC fundraising.

Concerning some of the comments I have been getting about the Democratic candidates signing the 4 state Pledge (NO campaigning in Florida before Jan 29th), I am suggesting that if your are, or were, planning on sending a check to your presidential candidate of choice, send a check to the FDP instead!

Several substantial fundraisers who have historically given to the DNC are giving to the FDP instead. That's a start. In addition, several Democrats who had endorsed candidates are withdrawing their endorsements. Those endorsements usually come with contributions, which are being withheld

Never mind that the DNC followed the rules because all the candidate went to them and asked them to keep order. More on that later. Never mind that Florida Democrats have done nothing but use tactics of ridicule against Dean...spending their time on TV asking him to resign even though they started the whole mess.

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- Democratic Congresswoman Corrine Brown places the blame for the delegate flap squarely on DNC Chairman Howard Dean.

"I think Howard Dean should fix the problem or resign," Brown exclaims during an interview at First Coast News studios.

Brown insists that Florida's delegates be seated at the convention according to the results of the January primary.

"And after what happened in 2000 in Florida, elections is a raw nerve for people in Florida. And you should not mess with us! And you should not mistreat us in Florida," she says.

Even though they arrogantly shoved ahead of other states in their drive to be more important.

We now find ourselves in a very odd situation. The party leadership and many of the elected Democrats took the risk of violating party rules, many promoting the change. They ignored the notice from the DNC and the substantial legal precedent that gives the party control over its own rules and supports its authority to set the terms of its delegate selection. Surely the party leaders and lawyers know of the legal rule that respects party autonomy and avoids the chaos that would exist if the primary and caucus dates were simply left to every state, a system that the U.S. Supreme Court has said would produce "an obviously intolerable result."

Nothing matters but winning. I like the Tanya Harding comparison. Kneecapping Obama to win.

Kneecapping him, even though the Clinton campaign agreed at the start that neither state would count. They went along with it until they needed the delegates.

I did not think it would happen, but now I am hearing it from people around us in our area. People are truly willing to blame Obama just because the Clintons say so. People who don't pay attention are getting a snow job. They are confused, and they don't know what to think.

After all, you are supposed to be able to trust a former president not to change the plot in the middle of the story. Not to change the rules in the middle of the game.

We should be able to trust that former president and his wife to campaign with dignity and speak the truth. Trouble is that campaign said their rules for delegates are not the same as the rules of the DNC.

So I guess they are making up their rules as they go along.

Good one, Bill and Hillary, blaming Obama for the mess that FL and MI got us into...and that they don't have the integrity to be honest about.

[AX10]

1. Obama and company are pro-disenfranchisement.

[madfloridian]

2. That is BS and it is demeaning to those who use it.

[fascisthunter]

4. he's baiting you

[madfloridian]

6. So does everyone else here.

.

[riskpeace]

17. Disagreeing with you is not baiting you.

Another post with no mention of the link to verified voting.

[DrDan]

58. one thing you must realize about the MadFl . . .

he/she does not like to be disagreed with . . .

[Barb in Atl]

39. Not me!!!

Thanks for all you do!

:hug:

[papau]

55. Is it wrong to say the truth that if Obama had agreed, the MI/FL redo's would have happened

[qazplm]

14. so was clinton

until she needed Fla and Michigan.

How else do you explain that she went along with stripping the delegates of both states?

[KAZ]

18. Damn. I was hoping you had a poem for us.

[Yes We Did]

32. Give me a break. Obama has said repeatedly...

that he would follow the DNC rules an go along with whatever decision they make.

Hillary was all for a revote until she realized she would lose even more ground, then she stopped pushing for it so she could blame Obama.

AND if you want to talk about disenfranchising voters, let's start with Hillary wanting to disenfranchise half the party by having the super delegates overturn the voters' decision.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zambero]

57. Obama played by the rules

Hillary has made up her own, tweaking them periodically as events unfold.

[fascisthunter]

3. I Wouldn't Call it Brilliant

too dirty to be brilliant.

[madfloridian]

5. I didn't want to use the tag...

for sarcasm. It's down and dirty, and very much lacking integrity.

[fascisthunter]

15. ahhh..... I'm Being Picky...

and I'm not trying to bait you. Not everyone baits you...

[madfloridian]

20. I know .

I am just angry. We had two people whom we thought knew better tell us that it was all Obama's fault.

[MichiganVote]

7. Can't speak for FI. but several plans have been put forth in Mi. Obama rejects them, C. is for them.

Considering the political stakes, that is not surprise. There may be few sinners in this debacle but there are even fewer saints.

[Yes We Did]

33. That is not true!

Obama has said repeatedly that he supports a revote. The simple fact is that the DNC won't pay for it.

Hillary has nothing to gain by a revote now; she only gains by saying Obama is trying to stop it.

[Drachasor]

35. That is indeed false. What stopped those proposals was Michigan's legislature, Obama didn't

[Double T]

8. If obama can't have primaries in a format HE can manipulate like caucuses or open primaries......

HE is NOT interested in a re-vote; I'd call that disenfranchising the voters of FL and MI.

[madfloridian]

11. Just let it all out.

Go for it.

[stillcool]

21. I'd call this disenfranchising...

the voters. Where were all the people who are so outraged back in August?

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates

By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is breaking the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.

The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.

The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
Rules in both parties say states cannot hold their 2008 primary contests before Feb. 5, except for a few hand-picked states that hold elections in January.
--------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15. "We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Even states that do not have favored status are trying to jump toward the front of the line. Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.

The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.

Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.

They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date.
They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------

Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her.

“I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
Posted: August 27, 2007 6:05 PM ET
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5.
The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.

"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press

PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.

State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.

The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.
-------------------
The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

Senator Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) has suggested seating the Michigan and Florida delegates at the Democratic National Convention, even though the Democratic National Committee (DNC) stripped them of their status. The DNC originally set itself up for trouble by denying these influential states a place at the convention as punishment for scheduling their primaries too early in the year. However, the fact remains that, since each and every Democratic presidential candidate pledged not to campaign in these states and to abide by the DNC’s decision, these delegates should not be seated at the convention.

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.

Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

Voters Face Confusion in Michigan Dem Race
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/09/voters_face_confusion_in_michi.html
January 9, 2008
By Peter Slevin

"People are already frustrated here in Detroit because they can't cast a ballot for Obama. Many on their absentee ballots many have tried to write in Obama, but they have spoiled the ballots," said Sam Riddle, Monica Conyers's chief of staff. "We know we've got to educate the voters in a hurry."

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."

The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot.

The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.

[madfloridian]

23. Very nice.

:hi:

[stillcool]

28. I don't know how you do it..

drives me nuts! I really respect your efforts in getting the truth out there, and you should know, that if it were not for your posts, I wouldn't have known enough to look for that stuff. You make a difference madfloridian!

[DrDan]

61. typical . . .

[Alii]

52. Assumptions

This assumes that some Hillary supporters know how to read.

Lies upon lies, upon lies...ad infinitum from the Clinton camp.

Come on Pennsylvanians; prove the Clinton's wrong...the majority are not uneducated and can rise above their smoke screen of lies and misstatements.

Read, read, read and then make an educated choice. Just beware of sniper fire.

I'm a registered republican that will be voting for Barack Obama in the general election. McCain and I are about the same age, we old duffers tend to have lapses of memory. I have no intention of changing my party affiliation, voted for John F. Kennedy and will vote for Obama for similar reasons -- hope, hope for the future, hope for the younger generation.

Obama in 2008.

Mahalo...

[DrDan]

60. it absolutely is disenfranchising voters

no explanation or spin can make it otherwise

"to deprive of a franchise, of a legal right, or of some privilege . . . "

If the voters of Florida and Michigan are not being deprived of a privilege - I don't how else to explain it. . . .

[Justitia]

63. Their state legislatures did it to their dumbass selves. They need new reps.

But you knew that already.

And the real "disenfranchising" is being done by f'in Hillary Clinton here in TX where she keeps threatening to sue MY state party because she got her ass handed to her and can't handle defeat.

The Clintons disgust me.

[DrDan]

64. no time for new reps . . . and not a time to be ignoring several million voters

It is time to solve this problem - and Dean needs to take the reigns and solve it.

I live in Florida. I know D-voters here are pissed . . . and they are pissed at the DNC - not the state legislators. Many many will either vote R or not vote.

If Dean cannot solve this - then he needs to ask the help of other senior leaders - Gore, Kennedy etc. But get it solved.

[Justitia]

66. Well, that's your own fucking fault, sorry. If you don't know who screwed you by now, you're dense.

If FL "Dems" are so stupid as to vote for republicans out of spite, then they are beyond all hope of having two brain cells to rub together.

Take it up with those that actually did this to you - the dumbasses you elected to "represent" you in Florida.

[DrDan]

68. well - at the risk of your continued barrage of bullying profanity

I do know who did this to me.

and if you refuse to see how this is damaging the party - then continue to support a fracturing strategy. It shall surely bring you the dividends you are seeking.

[Justitia]

69. I have no patience for disingenuous whiners who think they're "special" & issue threats.

Play by the rules like the rest of us and you won't be in this situation.

Trying to threaten the rest of the party over something your state did to it's idiotic self makes you look like either a LIAR or an IDIOT.

So go ahead and threaten the rest of the party with voting for McCain and I'll call you the REPUBLICAN that you really are.

[DrDan]

70. you are so blinded with rage you cannot see the reality

First I would never vote GOP - so please save your pathetic accusations.

Second - I am not threatening. I am only calling for a solution - and quickly before this party splits any further. I live here. I hear what is being said. I talk to other D's.

And without going into details - as your rage would never figure it out anyway - but the rule should never have been allowed. It was not thought out by the leaders at either level. And it has splintered the party.

And, anyway, it is through fighting these rules that has led to progress.

But please - continue your blind obedience . . .

[Justitia]

71. I'm just tired of the lying bullshit on this issue, trying to deflect blame to anyone else.

Just another shining example of the Clinton Machine trying to steamroll the entire party for their own personal gain and dragging every one of us into the gutter with them.

They've obviously got the rubes convinced they're getting screwed by everyone besides the people who REALLY screwed them.

You're being manipulated and used by that campaign and they've got you trained quite well to fire on your own party for their own benefit.

I've had enough of their crap.

Evil & Stupid.

[DrDan]

72. I am not a Clinton supporter . . .

but I can tell you that I, and a LOT of Florida D's are pissed that we are being disenfranchised.

But - I can tell you this with all honesty. Regardless of how the delegates would lean, I would support EVERYONE being heard. That is what this party was built around - equality.

And right now we have this power-grab between the state and national leaders - and the voice of the voters has been put at risk.

Punish the state party. Punish the state party leaders. I do not care. But - do not punish the voters by taking away their voice and their vote - regardless of how these fall. That goes against the very foundation of this party. And we do not have leaders right now that care. They are only seeking their increased power. And it is costing all of us.

[Politicalboi]

31. All the candidates

AGREED that FL and MI would NOT count. WTF do you Hillbots need to see that you don't change the rules in the middle of the game. Now that Hillary needs them she wants them to count. What a cry baby. What a sore LOSER she is. This is what you want in a President? Now to blame Obama for what she needs is despicable and just plain desperate. I think we should set the delegate count for the nominee to 1400 Game Over.

[floridablue]

9. More cheese with that whine ????

[madfloridian]

10. Very mature. The former first couple are being dishonest. That bothers me.

.

[Madam Mossfern]

12. It's sad to see

that there is so little respect for integrity of character by some people. I am very disappointed in the tactics of Hillary's campaign, and I am very upset that there are people who will buy into it. And yes...if Obama's campaign were this bad I would not be supporting him.

I do expect those who support Hillary to say that his campaign is in fact as bad.

[zulchzulu]

13. The Clintons see and brag about being in sniper fire where there is none

The Bosnian BS story on Hillary Clinton's behalf is a microcosm of the Clintonian reality we have had to deal with, defend and wonder why the hell we supported these people.

Bill and Hillary's obvious talents at capricious self-aggrandizement are evident at trying to pin the blame for Michigan and Florida Democratic officials who found the DNC rules their curiously odd suggestion and decided to act like rules were not for them.

Bill and Hillary are declaring that they are under attack and hiding from sniper fire when it is all in their heads.

They are nothing more than scum.

[KaryninMiami]

16. They are demonstrating once again, that they will stop at nothing to destroy Obama- it's deplorable

and frankly, disgusting. So, now the deal is if they can't have the delegates seated "as is" so that she gets the majority of delegates from MI and FL, they attack Obama for disenfranchising the voters? After she did her damnest to do EXACTLY this?

What I don't understand is why the Obama campaign isn't calling this for what it is- total and complete bullshit? I get it that they are trying to take the high road and appreciate the intent but this is a total lie and they need to reposition this and do it quickly. Both Clintons are now spinning this bullshit everywhere.

It is, as you and KO both pointed out, a Tanya Harding knee capping strategy. Desperate and despicable. Where is the DNC and why aren't they stopping them?

I cannot believe how much I used to respect the Clintons-- sure they weren't perfect-- but I was actually excited for a while about the possibility of Hillary winning. Now I am so disheartened to discover every day, how wrong I was about them.

[madfloridian]

19. Getting worse today...Singer and Ickes pushing this issue hard.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/03/25/politics/fromtheroad/entry3966301.shtml

"PITTSBURGH -- Choosing a nominee without Florida and Michigan votes amounts to "slapping these people on the face," according to Harold Ickes, a senior adviser to Senator Hillary Clinton.

The issue of seating Florida and Michigan delegates is crucial to Clinton’s hopes of overtaking Barack Obama’s current lead in the delegate race, and the Clinton campaign is not going to let the issue sit. In the past four days, Clinton aides have hosted three conference calls with reporters with the Florida and Michigan re-vote at the heart of the call. Today, Clinton Deputy Communications Director Phil Singer highlighted the importance of winning Florida in the general election saying, "We could have avoided the entire George W. Bush Presidency if we would have counted the votes in Florida."


It is time for MI and FL to be honest about what they did. It is time for the Clintons to stop using this issue.

[DrDan]

74. yes - please allow me to bend over and pick up the soap for you . . . .

you have got to be kidding. Lets call for a bit of honesty on both sides of the issue.

I guess that is too much to expect.

[madfloridian]

22. Clinton says Obama alienates voters in FL and MI

Clinton Says Obama Alienates Florida, Michigan Voters



Hillary Clinton addresses supporters during a rally in Detroit Wednesday. Photo: Associated Press

"At a hastily arranged rally in downtown Detroit, Sen. Hillary Clinton accused rival Sen. Barack Obama of alienating the voters in Florida and Michigan by refusing to agree to a do-over of their primaries and threatening the Democrats’ chances in November.

“Sen. Obama speaks passionately on the campaign trail about empowering the American people. Today, I am asking him to match those words with action,” the New York senator and presidential hopeful told the crowd of 250 AFSCME union members. “If the Democrats send the message that we don’t care about your votes, I’m sure John McCain and the Republicans would be happy to have them.”

Michigan and Florida were stripped of their delegates to the Democratic National Convention after staging primaries in January, earlier than the party’s calendar allowed."

[johnnydrama]

24. and when you say

after all their bluster about having to seat Michigan and Florida for the good of the party you say, ok let's seat them 50/50.

Then they say, um, well, 50/50 is no good, we need to seat the Florida beauty contest and the Michigan soviet style election in Hillary's favor.

So it really has nothing to do with the 2 states, it has to do with giving her delegates she hasn't earned.

If she could triple NY's delegates, or strip IL delegates she would do that too.

If she could retroactively eliminate all caucuses, she would do that too.

If she could count PA as winner take all, she would do that too.

[FlyingSquirrel]

25. GP time

[Kurovski]

26. K&R.

I'm counting on Howard Dean with this one.

[IndianaGreen]

27. The Clintons are pathological liars, just like Bush and Cheney

They probably went inside that big alien ship that McCain went into before he became a Bushbot.

[DeadElephant_ORG]

29. Brilliant, perhaps. But devastating to the Democratic Party. We NEED FL and MI.

By making it Obama's fault, Hillary gets very little advantage. But if our nominee is Barack, her accusations will very likely depress Democratic voter turnout in two key swing states.

What the hell has gotten INTO that woman?

[madfloridian]

30. Yes, devastating.

And sad.

[Eurobabe]

34. Typical Clinton politics, why I for one do NOT want these

people ANYHWERE near 1900 Penna Ave.

:puke: :puke:

[my3boyz]

37. I'm not worried about it. Only a brainwashed Hillary

supporter would believe it. Hillary/Obama signed the agreement BEFORE voting started. They knew the rules going in. My 7 year old would understand that it is now unfair to change the rules because you are not winning. All of a sudden she cares about the voters. Whatever.

[seafan]

38. It's the Clintons' Tonya Harding offensive. n/t

[SoCalDem]

40. Hillary pleads her case to the super delegates..photo

[Scurrilous]

41. K & R

:thumbsup:

[meow mix]

42. not only did they shove thier states to the front of the line to get an early "win"

now they want those states to get do-overs.. because it didnt work out as well as they wanted.

and all the while framing obama.


the question i am left with is knowing this, how could i vote for the clintons?

[madfloridian]

43. Here are remarks of two top officials in Florida Democratic party.

When you read this, you can see why so many people are confused completely. They are not hearing any truth at all from the state Democratic leaders. Both of these Democrats know perfectly well all that went down. Leonard Joseph is giving false assurances to the people.

http://www.winknews.com/news/local/16971366.html

"FORT MYERS, Fla - The second-in-command for the Florida Democratic party spoke to party faithful Monday night in Lee county, facing a crowd including people both confused and sometimes angry about Florida's delegate dilemma.

"I'm very upset," said Viola McClain, who has cast ballots for Democrats since the 1940's. But like many Florida Democrats this election year, she's angry about the uncertainty over her primary vote.

"I feel like I've been disenfranchised and they don't want my vote, and they certainly are not going to get my money," McClain said.

Leonard Joseph, Executive Director of the Florida Democratic party, assured the crowd of southwest Florida Democrats that Florida will count at the national party convention. But with the idea of a re-vote ruled out, it's up to a national party committee to decide what to do with the delegates.

"We educate them with what happened here in the state, we all push toward a solution, there will be one that will be forthcoming," Joseph said."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. They Should. Obama's Disenfranchising Millions.

[madfloridian]

45. Sorry you think there is no blame to the states.

Sorry you think the Clintons are being honest on this.

But that is your problem, not mine. Even though it makes no difference overall, at least I have tried to be honest about it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. He'sssssss Disenfranchising Millions.

Millions. For shame.

[Indenturedebtor]

53. BS

Nice hiss there though.

Here you go:

[Life Long Dem]

50. It's just the typical lying defense from the Clinton camp. Dean knows this

Hell, the whole world knows she lies! LOL!!

[Life Long Dem]

47. But who is falling for it?

[not_too_L8]

48. K&R ....get the word out in FL

[DrDan]

62. absolutely . . . get the word out in Florida

The Florida voters are being disenfranchised by the power-grabbing of leaders of the DNC and the State Party.

It is clear that neither care about the Democratic Party Charter nor the voice of the voters. The Charter makes it clear that voter equality is a foundation of the party. The leaders at the state and the national level do not care - they are both on a search for more power.

[knixphan]

49. indeed.

[madfloridian]

51. Well, she has just said she will stay in the race for 3 more months.

Should get interesting.

[truebrit71]

54. Does any doubt remain who she is in this for? Only herself...

...look lady, you don't have the votes, the states or the delegates...take a friggin' hike already....

Seriously if she doesn't step aside after PA the DNC needs to step in and do it for her...

[skyounkin]

56. must not be blank........

Kick kick kick!!

[Justitia]

59. Well, they are proven LIARS. Their own stupid ass states did it to their own stupid ass selves. nt

[flpoljunkie]

65. Remind these low information voters that it was the Clintons who brought Dick Morris into the WH.

That, they can perhaps understand.

[Vinca]

67. Does it bother anyone else how easily the Clintons lie? nt

[indimuse]

73. Hey Rush! I heard this yesterday while flipping through...Nuther MAD Fl chix

"Nothing matters but winning. I like the Tanya Harding comparison. Kneecapping Obama to win.
" so RW of you...

snip::



Obama Trying to Steal the Election?
March 26, 2008 by Angel
By an Obama Who? Contributor;

It is so wonderful to live here in these United Forty Eight States! With Obama’s attorney having successfully blocked the re-vote for Florida and Michigan, Obama has caused a problem that is creating a heck of a mess in the Democratic party. Does he care? Nope, it is an easy way to steal an election and hey, who cares about the rights of the voters anyway huh?

Let’s talk about this for a bit. Obama is going out of his way to deny Hillary her delegates from these two states as he knows she will win Pennsylvania. She will then be ahead in the popular vote. He wants her to seat them by giving him a 50/50 split of the delegates. If this is fair then let’s split all the delegates in the states he has won by 50/50. That is just plain stupid. Anything for him to gain an advantage to steal the election.

Howard Dean came under fire by a panel on CNN last night. They rightfully stated that Dean and Brazille have caused this problem and that Dean is NOT doing what is needed to fix it. He is sort of sitting back and passing the buck to see if the legislators can do anything about it to correct this mess. What they are NOT thinking about is the feelings of the voters themselves. Here stands Florida and Michigan again being disenfranchised. This is not having an effect on these people? WRONG.

Everyone keeps saying no matter who the candidate is that the people will rally behind her or him. WRONG. Why don’t they ask the people what they think? Take the time and read the comments on this poll by clicking on the signatures tab and sign it if you agree. These people are angry, very angry about the treatment of these two states.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/seatourdelegates/index.html

People are angry that is a plain and simple fact. They are also frustrated. The people of Florida and Michigan feel like total cast offs as it seems every time it is these state that are tossed to the wind then told now be good and vote for the president. Why? If a state is singled out over and over, not counted, they can’t have a say in the election of their chosen candidate then give these voters one good reason why they should vote for a candidate who has stolen the election? I hear over and over again Hillary is trying to steal the election by trying to get the delegates seated, she is breaking her contracts. Huh? They agreed not to campaign here in Florida which Obama broke the rules but they did NOT agree to not have the delegates seated.

Now to ask a question. What is so wrong with Hillary Clinton actually fighting for what is legally hers? She won both states. Michigan, Obamie took off his name but his campaign still pushed hard to get people to vote uncommitted which is legally his votes. Florida should be seated as is, Obama should get the uncommitted votes and these two states should be seated. This is only fair. Obama what are you so scared of? It has to be pretty bad when your fear is enough for you to block two states from having their votes counted.

[madfloridian]

75. No, she did not legally win Fl and MI.....the lies never stop.

The two states were sanctioned. They had no delegates to begin with.

How the Clintons have manipulated this party is shocking. I wish I had known that when I was busy defending him for his blow jobs and other assorted affairs. I made a fool of myself standing up for him..

[fadedrose]

76. There's one way you can blame Obama...

Prove that Obama worked with Gov. Granholm, Sens. Levin & Stabinow, the other DLC leaders and elected officials, to rig an unconstitutional election. Clever of them to leave his name off the ballot, clearly so that he could not be implicated in any wrong-doing. The sole purpose was to have Hillary gain and lose all the delegates. Very clever.

Yep, if can prove that, then Obama's responsible.

[Az_lefty]

77. it's as brilliant as bush lying us into a war...utterly dishonest but effective

I don't see what is to be gained by replacing one lying President with another one.

[noonwitch]

78. Obama is the one who proposed splitting MI's delegates 50/50, when he wouldn't get 50% there

The primary that we did have had Hillary winning by around 20%. The Obama supporters voted "undecided".

Both candidates have done things that piss off the other candidate's supporters. Michigan is a state that Hillary will win in a revote, so of course Obama doesn't want to have another vote there.

[madfloridian]

79. Using FL and MI delegates as pawns is what Hillary has done.

And then they blame Obama for not going along.

This is a shameful time for our party when a former first couple acts like this.

[wowimthere]

80. If you call this brilliant then how. du... ahhhh nevermind.

[madfloridian]

81. It was a brilliant strategy....and it worked.

What started as two greedy states and their superdelegates trying to be big shots has been turned into a tool against Obama.

Amazing how well things work when the media keeps pretending you are viable.

:shrug: