Don't most politicians exaggerate, embellish, misremember?

[Raven]

Would Obama supporters (of which I am one) have forgiven him if he had done the same thing?

Did the airport event which Senator Clinton described happen to her somewhere else and she just got confused, or did she weave it out of whole cloth (as the saying goes)?

When is a lie a harmless lie, "puffing", and when is it dangerous?

[RBInMaine]

1. But, she does time and time and time on again on MANY issues !

[Raven]

3. NAFTA? What else? Is there a pattern here?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

49. self delete

[sniffa]

60. 9/11 Chelsea, SCHIP, Medical Leave Act

Possibly Rwanda. I'm sure there's more.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

50. Can we say: Obama's documented lies about NAFTA to Canadian officials?

[boobooday]

2. I find it disturbing no matter who does it

In this context. I find it insulting.

[babylonsister]

4. I think the m$m would have skewered Obama mercilessly had he

'misremembered'. There's the difference. She's getting an awful lot of passes.

[susankh4]

7. Oh, don't worry

they will.

As soon as he gets the nomination.

[earthlover]

5. It was a stark bold faced lie

This goes to the issue of character. Someone capable of bold faced lies are not capable of being trusted. We need a president who tells the truth. On day one.

[DangerDave921]

42. Some SMIDGEN of truth

I read that there were some reports of possible sniper activity in the area which cut short the airport ceremony. No actual fire. No running with heads down to their vehicles. And the ceremony did go forward, with kids and all.

So I don't think this story was made up out of whole cloth, but she took the littlest germ of truth and blew it into a completely different event.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

52. It was an EMBLISHED story....not a fabricated story for christ sake! all politicians campaigns do it

[earthlover]

59. From where I sit, it is a doozie....

I'm sure (and I remember) people making excuses for Bush's "embellishments". I remember with great clarity that nobody would accept that Bush told a lie. It was as if it was unspeakable to call him a liar.

What I find doubly saddening is that Hillary's "embellishments", whoppers that they are, are inexcusable. Yet some of the Hillary Herd cannot accept this. They choose to act like the Bush apologists of old. I pity them. They are following a leader who does not inspire. They mainly spend their time making excuses for her....

[cooolandrew]

6. Thedifference with this ..embelishment...McCain can use it up against his war hero status.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

55. well here's the story McCain and the RW will use against Obama....

You tell me which story is more damaging to our winning back the WH?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N-1-g90bW0

[tekisui]

8. She could have embellished, but she lied.

I wouldn't care if she made it sound exciting. She hurt herself by making up stupid details that never happened.

And, with such ease--4 times. What other lies flow so easily from her mouth?

[Jawja]

11. She told this story 4 times?

I can understand her misspeaking ONCE. But four times?? And her campaign let her go out and tell a blatant falsehood four times?

This is not good.

[tekisui]

17. 4 times, that are documented.

It was written into her prepared notes.

It makes no sense. Why in the world would she do it? Why in the world would her campaign think this was a good idea?

[Jawja]

22. Well I've said before that I think

she has run a terrible campaign and her advisors have not served her best interests. This is just another blaring example.

And if she didn't catch that this wasn't exactly the truth, I am not convinced of her "being ready on day one" or "having crossed the commander in chief threshold" unless that threshold is measured by Reagan's faulty memory on his involvement in WWII or the idiot we currently have posing as "president."

on edit: At least Reagan had a good excuse. He confused his WWII movie roles with real events because he was in the grip of Alzheimer's.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. It didn't happen anywhere at all to her, she just made it up.

Clinton made a hugely stupid mistake and she is paying for it. Yes many politicians exaggerate, embellish and misremember - i.e. they lie - but when they get caught red handed they get their ass handed to them. Mrs. Clinton is now contemplating her assinine remark. Claiming she was sleep deprived was another hugely ironic gaffe as it resonates with her ugly 3am phone call attack. She compounded the error. Such is life.

[H2O Man]

10. Perhaps it has

more to do with the nature of her fibs. Senator Clinton said that the Clinton White House had a policy that if a place was determined to be too dangerous for the President to visit, they would instead send the First Lady. Then she told a highly detailed story about her visiting such a dangerous place. More, she told this same fib several times, as part of her attempt to convince the American public that she was cool under fire, and thus more capable than Obama as serving as President. The stark contrast between her version of events, and the actual film, is the reason that people are focused on her fib.

[bklyncowgirl]

12. This was an easily disprovable lie with multiple eyewitnesses not to mention video clips

In politics, if you're going to tell a lie it ougt to be a good one. This once again brings her judgment into question.

[Road Scholar]

13. Presidents shouldn't. nt

[NDambi]

14. She's been caught PUFFING one to many times...which makes her a liar

[Life Long Dem]

15. It was a lie. nice try!

[crankychatter]

16. this flap is the least of her negatives

I wouldn't trust a person that doesn't lie

But people that lie when they don't need to scare me

They bring heat on the hood

I ain't down with that

[Connie_Corleone]

18. Politicians embellish when it comes to policy issues.

They might claim to have had a more important role in getting legislation passed or worked on.

But you would think they wouldn't lie about running for their lives because of sniper fire.

Hillary just flat out lied about running with her head down and saying there was no greeting ceremony. How do you "misremember" something that never happened?

I would have a serious problem with Obama if he just made up something as serious as that and it never happened.

[indimuse]

19. valid points!

And fair... Would the Obama supporters forgive him..make excuses for his misspoken/exadurations...simple, YES! They already do. Everyday.

Yes..ALL politicians embellish.




imo.

[crispini]

20. It's just kind of over the top.

I mean, she lied about BEING SHOT AT. :wtf: What was she thinking?

I really don't know what happened here. If it was a deliberate choice to lie, she's dumb for not thinking it all the way through -- something like that would definitely have been in the news and have been easy to check.

If she really did mis-remember.... well, that's simply sad, IMO. How did that happen? Has she somehow told herself this story over and over again in an attempt to prove she had this dramatic overseas experience that ups her foreign policy "cred"? .... remember, as was posted upthread, she used this story *four times.*

[Perry Logan]

21. The Obama people are just trying to cash in on the universal human foible of faulty memory.

They're really desperate after this Wright thing, which--in contrast to Hillary's gaffe--is something really serious.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. One does not misremember getting shot at.

That sort of experience gets seared into your brain. Pretending this is not a problem for Clinton does not help your cause. It is a problem. By itself it doesn't terminate her candidacy, but it sure has at least temporarily completely derailed it. Given her 3am phone call attack ad, her attempt at explanation for her misrememberification: "I was sleep deprived", has taken her from serious gaffe to ludicrous ironic coverup. Her campaign has entered that bizarre twilight zone of Full Metal Meltdown. She could recover. A triumphant win in PA would get her back in the game. For now I think the safe assumption is that it is over.

[bigtree]

27. you forget that she pulled back on that comment. Don't act as if Obama hasn't clarified any of his.

Can we call them lies?

[Perry Logan]

28. I can see you have a hard on to call them lies. But they were obviously not lies.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Yo Perry! Bigtree was supporting your position. nt.

[Perry Logan]

34. Whoops! Must get more sleep.

[Window]

43. Yes. You and Hillary both must get more sleep.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. She repeated her claim 4 times. Then plead "sleep deprivation"

and now sort of admits it was all bs. This is not a matter of 'clarification'. Like I said, she might recover from this, but it is not likely.

[Perry Logan]

29. I think Hillary's memory foible is nothing compared to the festering cancer of the Wright scandal.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. When cornered changing the subject is always a good tactic. nt.

[Perry Logan]

35. I learned it from the Bamamwammers.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. You have descended from discourse to idiocy.

Perhaps you should go on strike.

[Window]

41. Gaffe, fib, embellishment, misspoke, etc. She LIED. Period.

You can make all the excuses you want...she LIED. She LIED for no reason. It would have been easier to tell the truth, but she LIED, not just once, but four times. She gets no pass on this.

[roseBudd]

23. I think itt very probable it did not happen somewhere else & "too dangerous send 1st lady" is BS

[WDIM]

25. She continued to lie about the lie

She said she misspoke. So that means she had to misspeak atleast 3 times on that subject that I've seen. She blamed it on being sleep deprived! Once she was caught in the lie she continued to lie. Part of the Media and Sinbad had already called her out on this lie weeks before she made the last statement and yet she still made it. Guess she really does need to get some rest.

[bigtree]

26. He has prevaricated, in several instances. And, likely, will again.

glass houses

[bowens43]

33. she made it up, she didn't err or misremember.

there is no issue so important or so unimportant that she won't lie about it if she's feels it will help her get what she believes to be rightfully hers.

[Perry Logan]

36. I question your logic. You can't know this.

[DemVet]

38. John Kerry sure did.

I admire Senator Kerry's service to this nation, both in the Navy and the Senate, but he fabricated parts of his service time also. He won't release his service record for public examination, either.

[DangerDave921]

39. Them's fighting words!

Watch out, buddy!

[DemVet]

44. Let's get ready to rumblllllllllllllle!

:spank:

[karynnj]

54. No he didn't

First of all, the Navy record IS what Kerry put out as his record. When he first became Senator, he asked the Navy for a report that summarized the milestones of his career. That list was what he put out as his record. It was what was later on his Senate and campaign websites. He did put his ENTIRE service record except for the medical records on his campaign web site. (A letter to Senator Kerry revering to his request with that list was part of over 100 pages of Navy records that were on his web site.)

Kerry earned the Silver Star and the Bronze star with valor. There is no legitimate debate that he was awards them. Nixon in 1971 didn't question them - and they were mentioned by a Senator when he testified. In 2005, in an attempt to kill this issue - Kerry signed the form to release all his Navy records directly to 3 newspapers - they reported that they were exactly what he gave the media in 2004 and what was on the website in 2004 for over a year. The only thing not on the web site was medical records - and Kerry had them open to legitimate reporters for at least a week to review. Needless to say, the newspapers led with Kerry's Yale grades. The RW still insists there are records not released. This has been very thoroughly debunked.

There are not many Kerry statements detailing his actions in Vietnam. His "Tour of Duty" journal entries definitely do not inflate these stories - in fact, if anything, they deal more with honest reactions he had. (Such as his fear that his and all his crew's families could have received the worst news due to their actions (led by him)when he got the Silver Star.) In fact, the description that impressed me the most of the Silver Star story was written by a conservative editor of the Chicago Tribune, who was one of the other two lieutenants there. The Bronze Star story was best told by Rassmann, the man saved - not Kerry. (In 2006, Senator Warner said on the Senate Record that he had been the one who reviewed Kerry's Silver Star during Warner's days as Secretary of the Navy, and that it was well deserved.)

Seriously, when you have those 2 medals, earned as they were, you don't exaggerate.

I think you need to rethink why you absorbed the RW lies here. This was not a 50/50 case - it was a rare 100/0 case.

Looking at your past posts, it is clear that you are willing to believe the worst Of Senator Kerry, when the FACTS (ie the Navy record) are 100% in his favor - but are unwilling to allow any possibility that either of the Clintons did anything wrong - even when as in this case - it is beyond obvious that HRC for some reason made this up and continued it when challenged. Why not give Kerry even .0001 percent of the benefit of the doubt you give Bill Clinton here - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5169391 ?

(I give Clinton the benefit of the doubt there, though it is far more probable that he did what he was accused of than that JK did not deserve his medals).

This RW crap on Kerry's service should not be on a Democratic board.

[Independent-Voter]

40. Yeah, I'm sure she's been shot at multiple times. Just a "Mis-statement"

[Vinca]

45. There's exaggeration and then there's exaggeration.

Hillary's war story was downright strange on 2 counts. First, her look when she was telling it. She became intense, animated and seemed a tad nuts. Secondly, visiting Bosnia as First Lady was an honorable thing to do and didn't need embellishment. Why does she feel the need to create some G.I. Jane saga? Add that to the puffing of the Ireland story and the NAFTA tale and it's rather obvious she's not a trustworthy person. Isn't 8 years of lies enough?

[Bad Thoughts]

46. Easier to Swiftboat than Kerry

The Swiftboat gang was able to create a great deal of uncertainty about Kerry's war record, suggesting that he was lying about his combat experiences. They won't need to work as hard with Clinton: it's obviously a fiction that she was in danger, and they can spin hard that she was outrightly lying. We take from Kerry's experiences that the general electorate cares a lot about the genuineness of a candidate's experiences of combat, even if they are not willing to be critical of the attacks against it.

[elana i am]

47. this one's whole cloth.

anyway, i think the days of padding the resume are over. the clinton camp has not adjusted as well to campaigning in the internet age. now anyone with a computer, a little free time and an interest in the daily machinations of a political campaign can be right there standing beside the man behind the curtian.

[Recursion]

48. About getting shot at?

No. That admiral who wore the wrong medal (a question of whether he had been in combat or not for that given mission) killed himself he was so distraught over it.

[ShortnFiery]

51. Not about dodging bullets. That goes to character - lack of integrity. eom

[CTLawGuy]

53. I think I would remember

running from a plane to a bunker, terrified for my life, due to sniper fire, vs. casually strolling out the plane in no danger and listening to an 8 year old read a poem.

Forgetting that is like "forgetting" what gender you are.

[elizm]

56. A lie is a lie is a lie. Live with it. nt

[City Lights]

57. It's a pattern for her, and some examples are worse than others.

I would call her claim of being named after http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/hillary.asp">Sir Edmund Hillary a forgivable embellishment.

The NAFTA, SCHIP, Northern Ireland, Macedonia, and Bosnia lies pertain to her experience, and are harder to swallow, specifically because she cites her experience as the reason to vote for her over Obama.

The NAFTA lie bothers me because it makes her look like she'll say whatever she thinks her audience du jour wants to hear, leaving me wonder what she really believes about NAFTA.

And of the embellishments listed above, the Bosnia lie is the most troubling because she repeated the lie so many times, and because Sinbad publicly tried to help her remember correctly. Instead of taking the hint from Sinbad and coming clean, she dismissed him as a comedian and continued to tell the whopper. She came clean only after irrefutable evidence surfaced, and when she finally did come clean, she offered a variety of reasons for having gotten the story wrong, none of which I find believable. And if what she claimed was true, what kind of woman purposely takes her daughter into a place deemed "too dangerous" for her daughter's father?

[JTFrog]

58. You probably expect us to forgive this guy too.

After all, what's the harm in a few little misspeaks.




John McCain tries to do damage control on his ridiculous photo op in the Baghdad market that required a small Army to show us that it was safe there. His visit required 100 American soldiers, with three Blackhawk helicopters, two Apache gunships overhead, hidden snipers and bulletproof vests. His excursion included a Rug Shopping Spree at an Iraqi street vendor with Senator Lindsey (”I bought 5 rugs for 5 bucks“) Graham (R-SC) and Rep. Mike (”like a normal outdoor market in Indiana“) Pence (R-IN).

McCain said he regrets comments he made after a tour of Baghdad last Sunday, when he said he could see progress and the American people were not being told the “good news” about the war, according to excerpts of his comments and a press release provided by “60 Minutes.”

…”Of course I am going to misspeak and I’ve done it on numerous occasions and I probably will do it in the future,” said McCain, according to “60 Minutes”. McCain acknowledged in this “60 Minutes” interview that he had been accompanied by heavy security during his trip.

[DrFunkenstein]

61. Bill Clinton Would Embellish a Story For Effect, Not Base His Credentials On It

From Hillary Clinton's "35 years" - 12 of which were spent as First Lady of Arkansas, and virtually no foreign policy role whatsoever during her eight years as the President's wife - her entire rationale for the nomination has been that she is more "experienced." But her claims are ridiculous.

It is very different thing than Bill Clinton telling a story about his non-existent cousin or whatever to clarify the importance of a library card (or whatever).

Now, if Bill Clinton suggested he didn't have sexual relations or his intern didn' inhale (or whatever), that's just silliness. Like ex-NJ governor Jim McGreevey, my problem wasn't him lying about sex, but letting his lies extend to matters of national defense.