In this thread, Bosnia veteran Dmesg explains why snipergate really bugs him

[Recursion]

I didn't get a combat action ribbon for my deployments into former Yugoslavia, because the ground was considered "permissive" (my regiment's 14 casualties were all vehicle accidents, occupational accidents, sports injuries, or illness). I didn't even get a National Defense Ribbon because of the diplomatic status of the deployment (I'm not bitter about that; those diplomatic statuses are an important part of the political context in which these "brushfire" deployments play out, and sometimes those of us on the ground have to bite down on a big juicy one for the greater good).

The more I think about it, the more I realize this is what really bugs me: if a sitting First Lady were ever remotely subject to tactical danger, we failed. Our job was to secure and stabilize the area, and we made damn sure that a visiting dignitary would not be subject to dangers. Now, 1996 was different from 1998 (those were my two deployments there), but 1996 was easier. Ground operations had ceased, and the civilian population was happy enough for the respite that they didn't mind the occupation (and they still don't: remember, Bosnia-Hercegovina is still partitioned and occupied).

We didn't fail. We made the area safe. Where the **** does she get off claiming a danger we faced in her name?

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

1. kicked and recccccccccccccccccc'd

[Name removed]

70. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

2. get over it. This smells. Using your position in the military to launch this political attack

She misspoke. Get over it. Go fight your campaign against her on issues which really matter, not this hyped bullshit. That's my opinion. And I won't put my resume in front of it to impress or intimidate anyone into accepting my opinion.

[Recursion]

4. What exactly "smells"?

And I won't put my resume in front of it to impress or intimidate anyone into accepting my opinion.

If anyone feels "intimidated" by my anonymous post on DU, I apologize; it was not my intent. My status as a veteran gives me no special wisdom about who should be President. It does, however, give me factual knowledge about the state of B-H in 1996 and 1998, just like my status as an Iraq veteran gives me factual knowledge about the state of Iraq in 2003. None of those remotely make me more qualified than you to judge who should be our next President, and I apologize if I was coming at it somewhat high and trying to stifle those who disagree with me.

[Whisp]

5. don't play with the vermin, dmesg. k&r!

[Recursion]

6. bigtree is not remotely "vermin"

In many ways I rather like him/her.

On edit: "him". And from MD, so that's another plus in his favor.

[peace13]

10. No apology necessary. n/t

[SaveAmerica]

14. Thanks for the calm response

[bigtree]

19. I'm just frustrated by this line of attack, dmesg

I think it's overblown and amazingly hypocritical of anyone who supports her rival to complain about statements which turned out to be false, no matter the subject. I apologize for leaving the impression that your own position and views aren't worthy of debate. I just resent the suggsetion (a slippery slope, I think) that one's position in the military makes a position or opinion valid. It does however, lend credibility, especially with the integrity YOU have shown on this board.

[Recursion]

24. I appreciate and sympathize with your frustration

And I also respect the integrity you've shown on this board. My own perspective is that I think multiple statements of difficult-to-forget fact or non-fact is hard to describe as having "turned out to be" false.

That said, I hate the tendency of some veterans to turn veteran status into some sort of unimpeachable political asset, and I wanted to personally apologize if this thread had come off that way to you.

[bigtree]

33. my overreaction, entirely.

[SaveAmerica]

40. I know I'm not the manners police around here, but that was an excellent response...

I think that Wright and Bosnia, once past their 'Best Buy Date' should be dropped.

This poster is doing something that's (in my opinion) difficult for the military; speaking up about politics. They're not allowed to speak their minds so when an opinion shows up in a political forum, I think we should pay attention (as long as their not threatening, etc).

[roguevalley]

87. dmesg, don't apologize. you didn't intimidate anyone. arm chair

generals and disruptors don't count. hugs, honey. you said your piece and you get respect. period.

[peace13]

8. I'm sure that you would say that it is a volunteer force

and they signed up for it. Well these folks lay their lives on the line for Americans and the politicians that 'lead' us. They deserve respect. I am guessing that you have never served or you would have not responded in such a demeaning way. She that misspeaks must not be obeyed...but questioned...get over it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. Your opinion is gradually evolving

Congratulations.

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

11. She misspoke 4 of five times

She's basically a lying sack of shit.

[DefenseLawyer]

12. What is your definition of "Misspeak"?

I am curious what that definition would be for one to conclude that making up a story about being shot at and retelling it in various versions in the face of overwhelming evidence that it is factually untrue would fit a definition of having "misspoke".

[cliffordu]

55. I was being facetious -

She lied through her fucking teeth.

[DefenseLawyer]

65. No, I was asking bigtree

He wasn't being facetious when he said "Get over it. She misspoke." I am still waiting for his definition, although interestingly his definition might just be "to lie through one's fucking teeth".

[InsultComicDog]

67. "misspeak"

I believe the term can apply very broadly to many different actions. It can be as benign as mispronouncing something, or as malignant as an out-and-out lie.

So to say that one misspoke does not rule out a lie.

However, I would consider it a "weasel word" applied in this sense.

[DefenseLawyer]

68. I don't think lying falls under the definition of misspeaking

"To speak or pronounce incorrectly" doesn't not encompass lying. Just people people use the term broadly enough to cover lying doesn't mean they are using the term correctly.

[Harry Monroe]

82. Oh?? Then I guess Bush has simply been "misspeaking" these past 7 1/2 years??

He's hasn't "lied" to us a single time. He simply "misspeaks" every time he opens his mouth!!!:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[InsultComicDog]

93. Every lie is a misspeak

Every misspeak is not a lie

Confucius says...

[SaveAmerica]

13. That was horrible and uncalled for, he gave his opinion from his personal experience.

I have forgiven you in the past days in consideration of your passion for your candidate, but you have now crossed over to the unforgivable.

I am speaking as someone who went from Edwards to trying to commit myself to one of the last two candidates. WHAT YOU ARE DOING HERE DOES NOT HELP HILLARY CLINTON'S CAMPAIGN.

[bigtree]

18. My lifes ambition is not to 'help Hillary Clinton's campaign. I come here to express my opinion

along with the rest here. I expect that opinion to be challenged on equal footing with ALL comers, regardless of position or resume.

[Forkboy]

15. You're really going to the mat on this one, and it's making you look totally ill in the head.

Now you're insulting actual vets? Oy vey.

[bigtree]

20. Are Vets always exempt from criticism?

what a crock.

[cliffordu]

23. From you, Bigtree, yes.

You are, finally, the PERFECT Hillary supporter. They were asking about you over at the duMP'er board.

c ya

:puke:

[bigtree]

31. If this place 'dumps' me it will be a hoot.

good luck with that

[Hepburn]

58. I have had Big Tree on IGNORE for a long time now....

...and I can see from the responses he is getting that things have not gotten better with him.

How sad....

[Forkboy]

28. No, but you might want to have more than just a hunch to avoid looking the ass when doing so.

You seem to be finally hitting the anger stage of grief...that's good. Progress! :toast:

[bigtree]

32. an ass? I think that depends on where you stand in this junior high school cafeteria spat

over this election. But, thanks for your personal observations. I'm really soaking them in. *sniff*

[Forkboy]

42. Yes, that's exactly what you're making of yourself.

I've both defended you and jumped on you, so it has NOTHING to do with who I support (especially since Kucinich and Edwards aren't even the race anymore). You're lashing out in frustration, and now insulting vets based on little more than your own opinion.

[bigtree]

45. You are really delusional if you think I'm here hanging on what some anonymous poster says

. . . they think of me. It's incredible that anyone would believe I'd really care in the least. I didn't mean to 'insult' the vet and I think you know that. I question the suggestion that a military association is enough to lend credibility to comments. Enough with the overblown criticisms. You obviously (and deliberately on my part) know NOTHING of any value about me. So get off of the personalizations.

[Forkboy]

48. I don't expect you to care what I think.

That's fine, and a healthy approach to online forums. But I didn't know that you didn't mean to insult vets, as thats what you just did by attacking the pilot of the flight with no knowledge whatsoever about him based on nothing more than your desire to defend Hillary.

Maybe if you'd share something of value I would know that about you, but as you don't share that (deliberately) how the fuck is anyone supposed to know? Maybe if you had said that in your post attacking him I would have known, but you didn't. So it sure as hell did look like you meant to attack vets that were speaking out against Hillary. :shrug:

On edit - In light of dmesg's post below I offer you peace, and lets move on.

[bigtree]

54. I'm attacking the notion that their opinion is beyond reproach just because of their service.

And you should know that was my intent, because I expressed it in my comments. The rest is bullshit that you piled on.

[Forkboy]

56. These were your comments Bigtree.

get over it. This smells. Using your position in the military to launch this political attack

She misspoke. Get over it. Go fight your campaign against her on issues which really matter, not this hyped bullshit. That's my opinion. And I won't put my resume in front of it to impress or intimidate anyone into accepting my opinion.


Those were the comments I responded too, and I have my own reasons why that line of attack is so wrong to me. You really layed into dmesg when there was no need, or at the very least, no need to do so in the manner you chose. Lets put it that way.

I won't respond anymore, as I said I would prefer to peacefully move on. I DO like you, but not that line of attack, from you or anyone.

[bigtree]

59. and I recast my statement to reflect how I felt about that impression

but, you know that, as well.

[Recursion]

46. I'll just point out I went to bat for bigtree in this thread

and I hope that's enough to soothe the acrimony.

[Forkboy]

51. I actually like Bigtree, though I frequently disagree.

In his goodbye thread a few weeks back I told him I'd rather he stayed, and I meant it.

I find it pretty lousy to attack any vet with no actual knowledge of that person. Bigtree may be totally right about that, and he could have tried to back up his assertion with facts instead of just a frustrated urge to defend. He usually does try to put together a solid defense for Hillary here, and he always defends Dems, even when I'm not sure I want to, and he's posted some awesome positive threads in this forum. This isn't his best moment.

However, if it doesn't offend you than I can't let it offend me, and in the spirit of your post here I offer peace to both of you.

[Recursion]

53. Me too. Emtions run high

And I'm convinced bigtree meant me no personal offense.

[yardwork]

79. I really appreciated your diplomatic and wise response.

Thank you.

[Catherina]

17. Get over it? Sorry, this one's going down in the history books

[cliffordu]

27. LOL!!

:rofl:


:hi:

[Catherina]

83. I'm glad you and Araxen like it

I made it just for bigtree ;) It just doesn't seem fair not to let him have one measly sniper considering there wasn't even a bumblebee flying around when the aircraft landed.

[Araxen]

29. ROFL!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[awoke_in_2003]

90. My god!

How did she ever escape that dangerous situation :)

[libnnc]

21. Is Hillary worth you looking like a complete ass?

She's worth that?

You all are a sad, sad lot.

[bigtree]

35. worth looking like an ass, to you? mebbe.

probably, definitely.

[libnnc]

36. I feel sorry for you.

Really. You're a pathetic individual.

[bigtree]

41. that means SOOO much to me, coming from you

*sniff*

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. This mispeaking will cost her military votes

count on it

Lying is not a minor thing for active duty, or retired personnel

Lying is NOT tolerated, just like cheating and stealing

Go ahead, call it a mis-peak, and inconsequential.

What she did was brave... but her embellishment really seats badly with anybody who has ever been under fire.

You've never worn a uniform... and I don't expect you to get it either, by the way

[TahitiNut]

38. And veterans' votes ... as if she cared.

It really is a scorched earth ("burn the village to save it") campaign. A bull is a docile pet in a china shop in comparison to Hillary's campaign.

I'm coming close to going into the kitchen and trashing the four "Hillary" coffee mugs I bought almost eight years ago. The more I see of her campaign (and supporters), the less respect I have for her. It's more than a shame that the first reputable female candidate (since Shirley Chisholm) for the presidential nomination is as abominably destructive as this. Why hasn't she been 1/2 as vicious toward Cheney/Bush?? THEY deserve it!

[awoke_in_2003]

91. "Why hasn't she been 1/2 as vicious toward Cheney/Bush?? "

because she is part of the same group they are.

[Araxen]

25. You don't forget or "mispoke" about being shot at

You remember every detail because you're life is on the line. I'll take the word of a veteran over anybody else on this matter especially on this board.

[scheming daemons]

26. What Hillary did was the equivalent of lying on one's resume....

...

ONCE is a "mis-speak".


FOUR times is a LIE.

[Grinchie]

85. Remember the Rule of Three's

One Miss Speak could be a mistake.
Second time is unsettling, but could be forgiven, but be on your guard.
Third time run like hell from that person, because it indicates possible pathological thinking.

"I don't know Peter Paul" -- Hillary Clinton

[tabasco]

37. She giggled as she lied about being under fire.

If she thinks it's so fucking funny, send her dumb ass to Iraq.

I earned my CIB, I didn't have to lie about it. And I don't giggle when I talk about the times I was under fire. It makes me feel more like crying.

[Egalitariat]

39. She actually made up a lie that, in her mind, bolstered her foreign affairs credibility.

She didn't misspeak. Not at all.

And it does matter. It says a lot about her character, and it implies more about her own self evaluation of the legitimacy of her "35 years of experience".

[yardwork]

44. Gosh, that's rude. I appreciate the OP's point of view and experience.

Also, Hillary did a lot more than misspeak. Seriously. "Misspoke" is when you introduce somebody by the wrong name by accident. "Misspoke" is when you use a curse word in front of your boss.

Creating and telling a very detailed story about being under sniper fire when none of it ever happened is not "misspeaking." It's lying.

[redqueen]

dupe

[redqueen]

50. I don't think even her campaign is trying to claim she "misspoke" anymore. (nt)

[dionysus]

81. she didn't misspeak, she LIED

as in, she's a LIAR

how can you not grasp that?

[Grinchie]

84. Misspoke Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Jeez Bigtree, you make it sound like it's an innocent thing.

In my book, it's a real Whopper and demonstrate an incredibly poor judgement on someone who claims to be experienced. Experienced in what? Being mislead by those malicious Republicans and their phony Iraqi Intelligence that forced her to vote YES in the Iraq WAR Resolution?

Or maybe she Mispoke on NAFTA.

Hillary needs a new nickname Miss Poke.

Ok Ok, lets all back off on Hillary, she blew it and made a miss steak. Lets move on. I'm over it.

I really think we need to have a discussion on her Tax Returns and that ongoing Peter Paul vs Hillary Clinton lawsuit.

[roguevalley]

86. you don't have a resume, bigtree. get over yourself. who cares what you think?

[Muttocracy]

3. good point; future comm. in chief dissing the military? nt

[crispini]

7. Ay yi yi!

:kick: :thumbsup: Dayum.

[SaveAmerica]

16. Someone's got some splainin to do! : )

[ShortnFiery]

30. This scandal is NOT going away no matter how often HRC tries to change the subject.

Lying about dodging fire and falsely claiming that you're in "a combat zone" with your daughter?!? Well, that's just shameful LYING and it, in and of itself, is enough to fail the CiC Text, i.e., no go on the character trait of "honesty."

[sandnsea]

34. Good Point

You should send that to Cafferty. She should be held accountable for what she said.

[yardwork]

43. And here's the really sad part - Bill Clinton did a good job as Commander in Chief.

The peace-keeping mission in Bosnia was a success. The United States did a good thing there, with minimal casualties. Contrast that to the unholy mess that chimp has made of Iraq and Afghanistan.

So Hillary took a success story - something that should be a positive point in her candidacy's favor - and turned it into a negative for her campaign by lying about her tiny part in it.

[Recursion]

47. Exactly: Yugoslavia is my one military success story

We actually were given an achievable mission and achieved it.

[yardwork]

60. I wish that Hillary's campaign had stuck to that message.

[redqueen]

49. I really wish she hadn't told these lies.

[aquarius dawning]

52. I question your service.

[Forkboy]

57. I question your intelligence.

[H2O Man]

61. I don't.

[Recursion]

63. Good for you (nt)

[ecstatic]

72. More swiftboating from Hillbots. Nice...

:eyes:

[awoke_in_2003]

92. And who the f&#k are you? nt

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

66. Stay classy!

[northernsoul]

64. Thank you for your service - you did a great job!

:kick:

[DRoseDARs]

69. This soldier was not just in Bosnia, but actually present at Sen. Clinton's visit to the air base...

...and she is NOT happy with the senator.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5265534

[Life Long Dem]

71. It was even a lie that the sniper fire cleared because there never was any.

K & R

[Bensthename]

73. This will cost her PA. She won't get away with making up such a B.S. story about being shot at.

[ekwhite]

74. Don't count on it

She is going after the 'low information' voters, after all. Or as PT Barnum put it, "nobody ever lost a penny by underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

[Cha]

75. hilary was buttering up her own damn self ..

not thinking how many people it would effect if she ever got busted..or does she think that far in advance except for the 2008 pres run?

[Norrin Radd]

76. kr

[mmonk]

77. Sorry you were attacked in this thread.

In the real world, a first lady and first daughter would not have landed there if it were not cleared of all hazzard and made safe by people like you.

[juno jones]

78. K&R

Thank you dmesg. I understand where the vets are coming from. I never served, nor had inclination to, but my father's older brothers served in combat in WW2, my father and his younger brother served in the Korean conflict, and over the years I have had many friends who served under fire in Vietnam. To claim to have been under fire when you really weren't is a grave insult to those who actually faced fire. My father, who was signal corps (radio operator) always made sure that we understood that he never experience any danger beyond broken fingernails and venomous snakes. he could have made up all sorts of shit to impress his kids, but he didn't. My dad was one of the most honest people I have ever known. I'm no so sure about Hillary.

[yardwork]

80. I've noticed a consistent truth. Those who have served in combat don't talk about it.

Those who never served in combat but seek to convince others that they did talk about it all the time.

John Kerry says very little about his Vietnam service, which helped cost him the election as he was unwilling to make a big deal out of the swift boat lies.

The shrimp, on the other hand, talks about his "combat" experience all the time.

[mzmolly]

88. First, thank you - second, I don't

blame you for being a bit angry at her false assertions.

[ChazII]

89. Late to this thread but...

I want to say thanks for your observation. You did not fail and I did not care for Hill's words. Thank you for your service as well.:patriot: