Clintons destroying the party AGAIN (not the first time...)

[garybeck]

I was thinking about how Hillary's extended stand in the primaries is fractioning the party, and her attacks on Obama and praise of McCain and other things she's doing are decreasing the chances of a Democratic victory in November.

And it occurred to me, that this isn't the first time that the Clintons played a roll in messing up the party and causing it to lose a presidential election, even though they weren't running.

This is just my opinion, but I think in 2000 that the Lewinsky affair played a roll in Gore's loss. I think it put a black eye on the party and people wanted to try something different.

I'm not saying that the Lewinsky affair alone caused Gore to lose, but I am saying it played a roll in the loss. It set the stage, because people wanted change. They didn't want change in policy, but they wanted change in leadership. Even though Gore had nothing to do with Lewinsky, he represented a continuation of leadership that people did not favor. I think if Lewinsky hadn't happened, or if it were handled differently, people would not have been looking for change as much, and who knows, maybe Gore would have won.

Instead, people were sick of the Clintons, largely from the Lewinsky affair, there were no "coat-tails" for Gore to ride on whatsoever, and we got 8 years of pure hell on earth.

Now here we are again. 8 years later. The same family is having a negative affect on the party and the chances of victory in November. Different modus operandi, and a likely worse and more far-reaching affect, but it is the same people screwing up the party again (sorry for the pun).

AT this point I don't even understand what she's doing. She has less delegates, less states, less votes, than Obama, and as I understand even the Superdelegates favor Obama, and in increasing numbers. Her only argument is that she won "the big states." Hmmm I don't see that anywhere in the party's primary procedures. So what's the point? The only thing she's doing is fractioning the party and giving ammunition for McCain.

The Lewinsky affair made it harder for Gore to win.
Now 8 years later Hillary is making it harder for Obama to win.

It's like deja-vu, all over again.

[MNDemNY]

1. No, Obama can lose just fine without any help from clinton.

[garybeck]

9. my opinion.....

either Obama or Hillary would BOTH have a hard time in the general election. they both have significant negatives. That's why I was pushing for Edwards.

but my point is that Hillary is making it HARDER for Obama to win in November. Her praise of McCain is outrageous.

There's no way she can win the primary. She should drop out now and stop damaging the party and our November chances.

[MNDemNY]

10. I agree, that is why I am pushing for a deadlocked convention.

None of the above.

[garybeck]

13. and what would that accomplish?

just wondering how you see that playing out.

I also don't think it will be deadlocked. With Obama having more delegates, states, votes, and superdelegates, where's the deadlock? So we have to go with it and do the best we can, which means Hillary has to stop making things worse.

[MNDemNY]

21. Neither are past the threshold.

Neither(imo)can win in the GE. We NEED to nominate someone else. IMO our best ticket would be Gore/Obama. Pipe dream? Maybe, but I feel we are doomed with either of these two on top of the ticket.

[Yes We Did]

15. And if she would play fair he could win.

But we can't have that... can we? Hillary wants another crack at in in '12.

[MNDemNY]

22. I don't think Obama can win the GE even if Hillary dropped out two months ago..

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. BULL SHIT

8 years of peace and prosperity is Bill's legacy.

[GoneOffShore]

5. There are some other things that are his legacy

DOMA, MDCA, Welfare Reform, NAFTA, Triangulation, DLC.

[Cronus Protagonist]

16. How soon we forget

Bill had a hostile press, an ongoing criminal investigation, and a hostile Republican Senate to deal with. And you can't blame triangulation on him just by capitalizing it - politicians have been doing that for centuries.

[GoneOffShore]

28. But we can blame his taking the party rightward with his embrace of the DLC

I began to be disenchanted with him when he signed MDCA without a murmur.

And it just went downhill from there.

[Uncle Joe]

34. So if you have a hostile press, an ongoing criminal investigation and a hostile

Republican Senate to deal with, not to mention long time charges of infidelity, why on Earth would you risk screwing around with an intern half your age, jeopardizing the election of the person you claimed as the best qualified candidate for President, when you chose him as your Vice-President!?

I see several dynamics here.

1. Bill Clinton didn't need to run for another election, when he decided to mess around with Lewinsky.

2. Bill Clinton compounded this lapse in judgment when he looked the American People in the camera lens and quite adamantly stated he didn't have sexual relations with that woman, Monica Lewinsky. This in effect handed the integrity issue on a silver platter to Bush, Al Gore would've been far better off had Clinton, either kept his mouth shut or told the truth up front.

3. Bill Clinton after having told Ken Burns during the run up to the 2000 convention that after scandal and impeachment, he had a more delicate role to play, took the longest walk down a hall way in Presidential Convention history, just so the cameras could gaze at his face, wasting precious prime time air time when he could've been promoting Al Gore for President from the lectern. I believe this only served to rub salt in the wound of the moderate or independent voters troubled by his behavior, the political equivalent of Bush telling the terrorists and or insurgents to "bring it on". And to think some people wonder why Al Gore didn't use Bill Clinton in a more conspicuous manner! I don't believe Al Gore abandoned Bill Clinton, so much as it being the other way around, when Clinton needed Al Gore the most during impeachment, Al stood by him.

4. Dick Cheney announced he would never run for President after he searched the nation of approximately 300 million over and picked him self as Bush's V.P., hell he didn't need to, he became President in shadow.

5. Hillary Clinton decided to run for the Senate in New York not the more conservative state of Arkansas. Hillary Clinton would go to an Al Gore for President fundraiser in California to compete for precious dollars, when she was only running a state wide race, mean while Bush was setting records raising money.

6. The same corporate media that slandered and libeled Al Gore with the ludicrous lie,(among many others) 24/7 that he claimed to have invented the Internet beginning in March of 99 only weeks after Clinton's impeachment, began promoting Hillary Clinton for President while she was running for her first term as a Senator.

[garybeck]

7. I'm not talking about his "legacy"

I'm talking about his affect on the 2000 election. Clearly he didn't help Gore. If there was no Lewinsky, he could have helped Gore much more on the campaign trail.

[Cronus Protagonist]

12. Gore won that election

I'm a HUGE Gore supporter. He was coming across as "wooden" because he was being handled and micromanaged too much by his campaign staff. He chose a poor running mate based on their advice as well. Top that off with not really having hit his political stride at the time and with the press's relentless attacks on him and lauding GWB, he STILL won the popular vote and was gypped out of it by a treasonous Supreme Court ( http://cronus.com/scotus ).

Monica had little to no effect on Gore's winning the vote and the election. And he could have run on Bill's coat tails as Bill was still, at that time, VERY popular with the people, but he chose not to, correctly, as he got the most votes.

[garybeck]

23. there were a multitude of factors in that election

you mentioned some of them. the press didn't want him. the voting machines didn't help. and the SCOTUS sealed the deal. But I don't think you can deny that Lewinsky and Clinton didn't help Gore at all. I believe the country had a case of Clinton Fatigue that started with the Lewinsky affair and continued until the election. Even though he had high approval ratings, the fact that he couldn't campaign for Gore has to tell you something.

[roguevalley]

35. Bill just said on the news that campaigns are for slagging. So frankly

I think anything Hillary ever did in her damned life is now fair game. I am amazed that Bill has slipped so much that he can't see that that sword has two edges. Come on, Hillary. Let's see what ya got. Bosnia actually blew up in your face. Let's see what other foreign wars you fought in.

[QC]

3. Gore didn't lose. n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

4. I suffered from terminal clinton fatigue in 2000.

to my chagrin (and my partner reminds me frequently) I did not believe that anyone could be as bad as Bush has been. But, alas, 8 yrs ago, I did not vote for Al Gore. A regret I have felt ever since.

Great post. and I suspect that you are not alone.

[garybeck]

14. Question - would you have had "Clinton Fatigue" if

there was no Lewinsky affair?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. it was not MonicaGate as much as the pardons,

NAFTA, and the constant polling before deciding that the white house seemed to do. In some ways, he was a good president. In others, a disappointment.

[garybeck]

6. x- ignore

oops, ignore

[undeterred]

8. The Clintons, in their utterly monstrous arrogance, think THEY are the PARTY.

THEY ARE MONSTERS.

[Cronus Protagonist]

17. And you're a professional mind reader, right?

If so, I wouldn't hire you as you miss the mark so widely.

[undeterred]

19. Anyone can read behavior.

[Cronus Protagonist]

27. You can record behavior, but you cannot extrapolate it to mind reading

Well, you can, if you don't care that you have no credibility in the matter.

[undeterred]

29. They cannot imagine that anything other than themselves

is the best thing for the country.
mememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememe

[Cronus Protagonist]

31. Another wild extrapolation on your part

I'm quite sure that Hillary's imagination is at least as good as yours.

[undeterred]

30. They cannot imagine that anything other than themselves

is the best thing for the country.
mememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememmememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememememe

[Arkansas Granny]

11. I think this long primary season is taking a harder toll on people who post

on boards like us that the population as a whole. I was rather surprised by some poll figures that a poster has in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5269398

I don't think that this is tearing the party apart yet, at least not in the general population.

[mudesi]

18. VIDEO of Hillary Clinton throwing Kerry under the bus in 2004

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x70721

She was always planning on running in 2008, so she had to ensure a Bush victory back then.

[garybeck]

24. Ah, so this is a repeating scenario...

how lovely.

[central scrutinizer]

20. NAFTA

So many working Democrats were furious with their representatives for voting for NAFTA, following intense arm twisting by Clinton, that they stayed home in droves, helping the Repugs win the Congress. And then there was the repeal of welfare, which pissed off a lot more people.

[LSparkle]

26. I agree -- I'm still smarting over the Gore "loss"

The recent Vanity Fair story about the bad blood between the Gores and Clintons
only cemented what I'd felt all along -- that the Clintons have always put their
family legacy before anyone else, even the Democratic Party. (After all, they
were instrumental in the establishment of the DLC, which gutted the Democratic
Party of so many of its core beliefs (corporatism bad/labor good; all in this
together vs. greed is good), meaning maybe they weren't that interested in
what the party originally stood for anyway.)

Al Gore was a good foot soldier -- putting in 8 years behind Bill, even through
the Lewinsky scandal -- and when it came for his turn to run, the Clintons wouldn't
leave the stage. I remember the 2000 convention and how they had to engineer a
"big night" for Bill and a farewell photo op so that he and Hill would FINALLY
move aside for Al and Tipper to get the attention they needed in order to win.
Thanks to the Lewinsky mess, Gore felt compelled to pick "Holy Joe" LIEberman
as his running mate -- someone who certainly helped with the Jewish vote but
who had the personality (and stumping ability) of a paper bag -- instead of a
more dynamic choice, like John Kerry or John Edwards. But, I was hoping, at
last Gore would get to be president, to really put forward HIS agenda -- the
environment probably being high on that -- and no longer have to just play
second (or THIRD?) fiddle to Bill and Hill.

And then, I had to watch him lose, while Hillary ... WON. Of all the major players
in the 2000 election, the one who REALLY lost was Gore. RatBastard got to squat at
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Hillary got to be a Senator. Bill got his own office and
a house in Westchester County where he could do ... as he pleased. What did Al Gore
get to do? Fly commercial home to Tennessee. I can't get past that indignity,
which I still blame the Clintons for. Had they behaved themselves in the White House
and been a bit more concerned about Bill's legacy (part of that being Al Gore's
election as his successor) and not their personal power, we could have been spared
the past 8 years of hell.

Based on both Hillary's Senate service and Bill's questionable business dealings
(including his coziness to the BFEE) since their departure from the White House,
I don't believe they've earned the right to return. What's heartbreaking is
that they're running a campaign that may prevent yet another GOOD MAN from taking
his rightful place as our leader.

All I can pray is NOT THIS TIME.

[Beacool]

32. The Clintons are not destroying the party.

The millions of people who have voted for her disagree. The thousands of small donors who have sent millions of dollars to her campaign since February disagree. The millions of people who have yet not had the opportunity to vote for her in the upcoming states disagree too. Let's also not forget those who voted for her in MI & FL and are now disgusted with the party.

Bill Clinton was the reason why the party had 8 years of Democratic rule in the WH. I would follow the Clintons anywhere. Obama, I wouldn't even follow him across the street.

[garybeck]

33. MI and FL... don't exaggerate.

just look at the facts. Obama was not even on the ballot in Michigan and Hillary agreed not to campaign in Florida but she did. those states are a wash. why did 40% of the voters vote "noncommitted" in Michigan?

[gear_head]

36. has anybody ever just quit, being this close?

by that I mean ...
will be likely to get 40% of the votes on the first ballot,
and,
the opponent does not have it locked up.


who just quits?