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Krugman: Hillary "bold and progressive", Obama "cautious and relatively orthodox"

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johan helge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 04:14 AM
Original message
Krugman: Hillary "bold and progressive", Obama "cautious and relatively orthodox"
Krugman today (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/opinion/28krugman.html):

When George W. Bush first ran for the White House, political reporters assured us that he came across as a reasonable, moderate guy.

Yet those of us who looked at his policy proposals — big tax cuts for the rich and Social Security privatization — had a very different impression. And we were right.

The moral is that it’s important to take a hard look at what candidates say about policy. It’s true that past promises are no guarantee of future performance. But policy proposals offer a window into candidates’ political souls — a much better window, if you ask me, than a bunch of supposedly revealing anecdotes and out-of-context quotes.

Which brings me to the latest big debate: how should we respond to the mortgage crisis? In the last few days John McCain, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have all weighed in. And their proposals arguably say a lot about the kind of president each would be.

Mr. McCain is often referred to as a “maverick” and a “moderate,” assessments based mainly on his engaging manner. But his speech on the economy was that of an orthodox, hard-line right-winger.

It’s true that the speech was more about what Mr. McCain wouldn’t do than about what he would. His main action proposal, as far as I can tell, was a call for a national summit of accountants. The whole tone of the speech, however, indicated that Mr. McCain has purged himself of any maverick tendencies he may once have had.

Many news reports have pointed out that Mr. McCain more or less came out against aid for troubled homeowners: government assistance “should be based solely on preventing systemic risk,” which means that big investment banks qualify but ordinary citizens don’t.

But I was even more struck by Mr. McCain’s declaration that “our financial market approach should include encouraging increased capital in financial institutions by removing regulatory, accounting and tax impediments to raising capital.”

These days, even free-market enthusiasts are talking about increased regulation of securities firms now that the Fed has shown that it will rush to their rescue if they get into trouble. But Mr. McCain is selling the same old snake oil, claiming that deregulation and tax cuts cure all ills.

Hillary Clinton’s speech could not have been more different.

True, Mrs. Clinton’s suggestion that she might convene a high-level commission, including Alan Greenspan — who bears a lot of responsibility for this crisis — had echoes of the excessively comfortable relationship her husband’s administration developed with the investment industry. But the substance of her policy proposals on mortgages, like that of her health care plan, suggests a strong progressive sensibility.

Maybe the most notable contrast between Mr. McCain and Mrs. Clinton involves the problem of restructuring mortgages. Mr. McCain called for voluntary action on the part of lenders — that is, he proposed doing nothing. Mrs. Clinton wants a modern version of the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation, the New Deal institution that acquired the mortgages of people whose homes were worth less than their debts, then reduced payments to a level the homeowners could afford.

Finally, Barack Obama’s speech on the economy on Thursday followed the cautious pattern of his earlier statements on economic issues.

I was pleased that Mr. Obama came out strongly for broader financial regulation, which might help avert future crises. But his proposals for aid to the victims of the current crisis, though significant, are less sweeping than Mrs. Clinton’s: he wants to nudge private lenders into restructuring mortgages rather than having the government simply step in and get the job done.

Mr. Obama also continues to make permanent tax cuts — middle-class tax cuts, to be sure — a centerpiece of his economic plan. It’s not clear how he would pay both for these tax cuts and for initiatives like health care reform, so his tax-cut promises raise questions about how determined he really is to pursue a strongly progressive agenda.

All in all, the candidates’ positions on the mortgage crisis tell the same tale as their positions on health care: a tale that is seriously at odds with the way they’re often portrayed.

Mr. McCain, we’re told, is a straight-talking maverick. But on domestic policy, he offers neither straight talk nor originality; instead, he panders shamelessly to right-wing ideologues.

Mrs. Clinton, we’re assured by sources right and left, tortures puppies and eats babies. But her policy proposals continue to be surprisingly bold and progressive.

Finally, Mr. Obama is widely portrayed, not least by himself, as a transformational figure who will usher in a new era. But his actual policy proposals, though liberal, tend to be cautious and relatively orthodox.

Do these policy comparisons really tell us what each candidate would be like as president? Not necessarily — but they’re the best guide we have.

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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. It is hard to believe what is printed without careful study and
comparison.. It is up to us to do the work... We do need to be the media. Let's inform each other and elect a Democratic president. Hopefully our corporate overseers don't mind our involvement.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Obama's minimalist change approach that does not solve problem is not what's needed
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. "...the excessively comfortable relationship her husband’s adm. developed with the investment indust
well, Krugman admits some parallels to the other Clinton...

True, Mrs. Clinton’s suggestion that she might convene a high-level commission, including Alan Greenspan — who bears a lot of responsibility for this crisis — had echoes of the excessively comfortable relationship her husband’s administration developed with the investment industry.


But what Krugman doesn't recognize is the problem Hillary Clinton has in achieving her goals.
She failed twice - in both of her husband's terms, 8 years - to get any advances towards
universal health care. In fact, she appears to have set the movement and issue back that many years.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Obama went to the Wall Street lions den and in the lions den said nothing to disturb the lions
Hillary's five-year mortgage interest freeze or a moratorium on foreclosures is indeed a bit more conservative than FDR's Home Loan Corporation direct purchase and renegotiation of mort age approach in the 30's - but Hillary is a great deal more liberal, progressive, effective, workable than Obama's minimalist approach to change

Krugman appears to understand situation and the past approaches to this type of problem - Obama doesn't.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. that's right. Obama is too conservative for me
Edited on Fri Mar-28-08 05:53 AM by JoFerret
obama had a nice turn of phrase though. isn't that enough to make change?
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
30. and yet Hillary is accusing Obama of being "too liberal"
ironic the way these double messages are sent out to the media simultaneously
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Doesn't make it true
whoever is coming up with the nonsense. he is way too conservative for me and well to the right of clinton on some key areas.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. This is a very thoughtful analysis.
Thank you for posting it.
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avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. And Krugman is one smart fellow when it comes to these issues.
Fascinating that Hillary's ideas are called progressive - that may shock some of the actual Progressive movement on the net. It sure is nice to see a real difference between the candidates instead of some of the bullshit stuff that has been out there lately.
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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. He avoids foreign policy issues
and it's pretty much a black and white issue. Who supported IWR?
That's the best litmus test for a true progressive. What good are domestic policies when it's the foreign policies which are ruining the domestic economy?

All 3 may be evil, but Obama is by far the lesser of the 3 evils. Obama may not be able to stop the war by himself, there's too many war hawks in power that could over-rule him in all sorts of manners, but he's been consistent and I believe his intent is pure in this matter.

I have real doubts with Hillary. And McCain doesn't want to stop a war at all, he wants to expand the idea into "many wars".



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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Who supported IWR? John Kerry, John Edwards, Chuck Hagel ...
Some of them believed the promises made by Colin Powell, Condi Rice and Tony Blair that it was all about putting pressure on Saddam so he would cooperate fully with the UN inspectors.

With hindsight we can critcize their vote. But hindsight is 20-20.

Last year I was one of the people here constantly bringing up Hillary's IWR vote. But then I read her speech to the Senate back in October 2002 and it is very clear to me that Hillary was NOT voting "for war". She was following the exact same line of argument as John Kerry and many others.
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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
50. To any reasonably intelligent person, the consequences of the IWR vote
would have been plainly obvious. It allowed the president to wage a war without an express declaration from Congress. This is exactly what happened.

Twenty-eight Democrats in the Senate voted yes in favor of the IWR in October of 2002. I do not have the education of Hillary, Kerry, et. al. but John Kerry and John Edwards have apologized, Hillary refuses. In any case there was never a question in my mind what the IWR would lead to. A war. A teenager would have told you the same thing.

Bush and Iraq were synonymous with a war. His father came close enough to a war.

Bush needed to boost his PR, divert America's attention from the real questions surrounding 911, and the IWR was made to order for that purpose.

Hillary Clinton, like most Democrats who voted for the IWR, has said very explicitly that had they known then what they know now, they never would have supported it. In other words had they known Bush was lying about the reasons for the IWR, that the evidence for WMDs was being cooked up to support a predetermined policy, and that Bush had not intention of pursuing further inspections, they certainly would not have voted for it.

If that is true, then I would rather not have someone of Hillary's naiveté in office.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. Hillary will fight to defend America's middle class, even if it means upsetting some on the right.
On the other hand, I am afraid that President Obama will constantly seek to avoid conflict by looking for compromises that Republicans and corporations can accept.

I HOPE that if Obama is the nominee then he will CHANGE his approach to politics! B-)
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Right, she'll defend her fellow millionaires.
Everybody else she'll sell down the river, just like Bill did.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Obama is a millionaire
and will end his "career" as a VERY rich man.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. yes, he made money off of his two (2) best sellers
while Bill made money off of favors to friends, and Hillary made money off of corporate lawyering.

And yes both Billarys sold books, Bill probably wrote his own, but Hillary had a ghostwriter.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. He's a nice writer - very true
I only read one of the books. It was well written.

He has many opportunities to cash in.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. This is yet another reason I am supporting Obama:
Edited on Fri Mar-28-08 05:20 AM by girl gone mad
I was pleased that Mr. Obama came out strongly for broader financial regulation, which might help avert future crises. But his proposals for aid to the victims of the current crisis, though significant, are less sweeping than Mrs. Clinton’s: he wants to nudge private lenders into restructuring mortgages rather than having the government simply step in and get the job done.

Not only would Hillary face a more difficult challenge implementing her proposals, they are also simply bad ideas. Median home prices in many places rose well beyond the ability of those making median incomes to afford them. Millions of loans cannot be restructured, because even at 0% the homedebtors cannot afford the houses they are in. A freeze on foreclosures would not benefit our economy, it would just prolong the pain and destroy our hope for a quick recovery.

Krugman is wise on many issues, but he was not out ahead on the mortgage and derivatives mess. Those who were have expressed a preference Obama's economic agenda.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I agree with you here.
There is too great a disconnect between incomes and the price of housing now. The only thing that will help is a major price correction.

I was reading just the other day about a tractor driver with a $550,000 mortgage. There's no possible restructuring in the world that would help him.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Egg-zactly.
:thumbsup:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
10. Why is it better
to create a new mortgage bureaucracy than to give bankruptcy courts greater flexibility in restructuring mortgages? Doesn't capping mortgage rates either exacerbate sa mortgage shortage or have no effect (if mortgage rates drop)?
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
11. So what are these "sweeping" plans Mrs. Clinton has supposedly put forth?
Edited on Fri Mar-28-08 05:30 AM by dailykoff
Oh wait, she hasn't. More trolling from The Neocon Times.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
16. So now Greenspan is no big deal to Krugman?
Isn't it amazing how pigs fly during primary season.

I bet that stings when he wakes up tho.

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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #16
33. Makes you wonder if he even reread his own piece....
ugh.
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gaiilonfong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
17. Krugman still auditioning
for a job...He has proved himself to be a whinner and distorter..NO SALE Paul
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
18. The last word I'd use to describe Hillary is progressive. nt
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. True. She is not. But she is more so than Obama.
.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
19. Excellent post! K&R!!
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
20. Hillary: bold liar and loose cannon OBAMA: deliberative and wise
:shrug:
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
22. B-b-b-b-b-but Mark Penn keeps saying Obama is too liberal
Edited on Fri Mar-28-08 07:02 AM by BeyondGeography
compared with Hillary. He even got Anderson Cooper to take time out from pastorbating last night to do a whole segment on Obama's overly liberal views.

Maybe Obama can get Krugman on TV to contradict Hillary's own campaign and get the story straight.
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johan helge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Mark Penn is talking to
moderates, Krugman to progressives - you have to understand modern marketing! (But Krugman, not Penn, is right, of course.)
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Krugman's losing then
Most progressives are voting for Obama.
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johan helge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yes, and Krugman & I (!) think they should have supported Hillary

Krugman: Progressive Obama supporters don't understand that he's actually undermining their cause
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4386355&mesg_id=4386355

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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
37. Meantime, Bill Clinton calls McCain a moderate
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
23. Hmmm... the title of the post doesn't reflect what Krugman said
No surprise there. Intellectual honesty isn't a hallmark of this forum.

Interesting takes, though.

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johan helge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. Is it
"though liberal, tend to be cautious and relatively orthodox" about Obama, you mean? Ok, I stand corrected.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
27. I'm glad Obama's proposal is cautious and less sweeping
Edited on Fri Mar-28-08 07:39 AM by high density
If Clinton thinks throwing a bucketload of money at the problem is going to fix it, she's wrong. It will just breed bad behavior because there will be no downside to taking a lot of risk; the government will just come around later and give you a check to make it all better. There needs to be some sort of pain involved in the process for the banks.

The fact that Clinton is turning to Alan Greenspan is a huge red flag. That guy's older than the hills and has no clue what to do.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
29. If Obama Chose The Architect of The Mortgage Crisis to Head The Panel to Fix It
Obama proposes exactly the kind of progressive changes we were looking for in the wake of the Enron scandal and Krugman curtly says it "pleased" him.

Clinton picks Alan fucking Greenspan, the regulator who did NOTHING but issue SUGGESTIONS to mortgage lenders when he knew full well that they were seriously loosening their loan underwriting to maintain housing boom profits. That's the guy she wants to fix the problem. That's a progressive.

And, unfortunately, Clinton's proposals for restructuring mortgages would ultimately result in lenders being forced to absorb these changes into their risk assessments and would make it significantly more difficult for people - especially subprime-level borrowers - to qualify for a loan, and if they did it would cost alot more.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
34. Krugman's testicles can be found locked in a box in Bill Clinton's wall safe.
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Raffi Ella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
38. Great article, thanks.
I am for Hillary Clinton because she will get things done for Us. Obama seems to think that all he has to do is smile and be nice and the Repukes will fall in line behind him; not gonna happen.

If we want change, real change with a Democratic Agenda front and center, Hillary is Our answer.

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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
40. Obama's "free market" solutions don't resonate
as always, he shows surprisingly little vision or leadership when it comes to policy.

What is Obama afraid of?
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Like Hillary could get half of her proposals passed as is.
She couldn't even get her HC initiative past a DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED congress.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. As a matter of fact, she could
and voters deserve better from a candidate than the lukewarm, corporate crafted economic policy that Obama is offering.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
42. An economist take on Krugman's criticism:
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. cv please
Anyone named Jared was likely still peeing in his jammies during Clinton's presidency.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. "Anyone named Jared was likely still peeing in his jammies during Clinton's presidency." Idiocy!
Look him up yourself. Clue: that's why his name is hyperlinked.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. That's quite an even handed analysis.
Thank you for sharing.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
43. They're both safe as milk.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
46. Its their policy proposals. Can anyone argue that Obama's mortgage proposal is more progressive?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-28-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. No, its weak
and Obama has no record of going out on a limb for these kind of issues.

Sorry, but I don't take him at his word. He's touted "free market" solutions for years, why should we believe he feels differently now?
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
51. At odds
<<All in all, the candidates’ positions on the mortgage crisis tell the same tale as their positions on health care: a tale that is seriously at odds with the way they’re often portrayed.


Ain't THAT the truth!
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