If you're pro choice, then you agree with Obama's position on abortion

[eleny]

No matter how much people writhe and twist and screw up their mouths - they agree with him if they themselves are pro choice. I don't see any way to slither out of it. You either want to save the fetus or not. If not, then it's because you just don't want it.

There's nothing pleasant about it. The word "punishment" doesn't make it any worse. Abortion is what it is and it's never pretty.

[JuniperLea]

1. I'm pro-choice and I couldn't possible disagree more with what Obama said.

He misspoke.

"I don't want them punished with a baby."

A baby can never punish a person; their experience may be felt as punishment, but a baby never punishes.

Abortion has nothing to do with a baby punishing. The baby did nothing.

[GarbagemanLB]

2. punished with a baby is different than 'punished BY a baby'. He isn't blaming the baby.

[melody]

35. Why even try? The people who are going to misinterpret him will do so

Anyone with more than a 10th of an ounce of grey matter will understand what he meant.

Those who don't are doing so willfully.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. "I'm pro-... baby punishing." -Juniperx

How dare you, Juniper! How dare you!

[JuniperLea]

20. No one is forced to keep a baby...

Before or after it's born.

A human being is not a punishment.

[eleny]

25. Are you pro choice or not?

[JuniperLea]

27. I'm totally pro choice

I'm anti abortion, but I'm pro choice.

No one can be punished by a baby.

You can punish a baby by having one when you don't want one, that is wrong, and that is where pro-choice comes in and is a good thing.

A baby is never punishing or a punishment.

Obama misspoke.

[quakerboy]

37. Lets visit a nice

Evangelical household in depth. Then we can talk about who is or is not forced to keep a baby, and whether they are punished.

I call BS on your rather shortsighted statement. Legally does the state force it? No, but you can bet under McCain's new SCOTUS it will. When you add that to the pressures that many are subject to even under what freedoms we still technically have, your whole line of approach is a puff of (rather libertarian) smoke.

[JuniperLea]

45. I come from an Evangelical household...

And I know what I'm talking about. You are a boy. Next?

[Megahurtz]

8. Bullshit.

No Choice much?

[JuniperLea]

21. Yes, there are choices...

And no one is taking choice away...


Babies don't punish people, that is the issue here, not abortion.

[goletian]

10. he didnt misspeak, you misspun. - nt

[JuniperLea]

28. No, he misspoke. eom

[goletian]

34. your message never started -- you never had one. eom. - nt

[eleny]

12. Abortion happens when people don't want a baby

One can call having and raising a baby as "punishment" - and you both are still on the same side. There's no way you can squirm out of it. You share Obama's views.

[JuniperLea]

22. No, having and raising a baby is NOT a punishment...

You might punish a baby by forcing it to stay with a parent who doesn't want it...

[eleny]

29. Since when are you the arbitor of what is punishment?

For some it may feel like a punishment. For instance, if a young girl is raped and her family attempts to prohibit her from having an abortion that she seeks.

That was just one example of when it may feel like a punishment to carry to term. And I'm here to declare that you aren't in any position to decide for everyone what is or is not "punishment".

Thanks for the clarification of your position. Take the last word if you wish, I'm done with you.

[slinkerwink]

13. he was talking about sex education, not abortion. his full quote is below:

"This is a very difficult issue, and I understand sort of the passions on both sides of the issue," he said. "I have two precious daughters — they are miracles."

But politicians must trust women to make the right decisions for themselves, he said.

"This is an example where good people can disagree," the Illinois senator said. "The question then is, are there areas that we can agree to that everybody can get behind? We can all agree that we want to reduce teen pregnancies. We can all agree that we want to make sure that adoption is a viable option."

The exchange appeared to be prompted by Obama's earlier comments that he does not favor abstinence-only education, but rather comprehensive sexual education that includes information on abstinence and birth control.

"Look, I got two daughters — 9 years old and 6 years old," he said. "I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at age 16, so it doesn't make sense to not give them information."

[JuniperLea]

23. Not funny. eom

[Warren Stupidity]

40. Not funny? Respond to the full sentence from Obama:

"Look, I got two daughters — 9 years old and 6 years old," he said. "I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at age 16, so it doesn't make sense to not give them information."

What exactly do you disagree with there?

[Seabiscuit]

44. The problem is the way he said it all makes him sound like a drunken sod who doesn't know what

he's saying or how it will sound to others.

Who knows what he really meant. It's totally confused.

[totodeinhere]

15. But you know what he meant.

He was talking about denying an abortion to a woman even though that woman thinks it's in her best interest to have an abortion. If a woman who wants an abortion can't get one, then that surely is punishment.

People who are trying to parse Obama's words on this subject are nothing more than his political opponents who are grasping at any straw in an effort to take Obama down. But in this case it won't work. Everybody knows what Obama meant and there is nothing wrong with what he said.

[JuniperLea]

26. Exactly... what he was talking about and what he said are two different things...

He misspoke!

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dansolo]

46. He was not talking about abortion at all

He was talking about sex education. The fact is that girls get pregnant and get STDs because they don't know or don't properly use birth control. I like the fact that he acknowledges that young people do have sex, and it would better if they were properly informed.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

43. He never said the baby did the punishing.

And you are engaging in EXACTLY the kind of emotional hyperbole the forced birthers use to demonize women and medical professionals.

[elocs]

3. Many fetuses are taken to term and are born.

And their parents consider them to be a punishment and treat them accordingly. Their lives are not pleasant and for some it is a particular hell.

[silverweb]

14. Exactly.

A great deal of child abuse comes from exactly that, and the cycle is perpetuated.

[HockeyMom]

17. My husband heard that

I heard my MIL say it to my husband, then a grown man. "You were an accident and we didn't want you." One time I even heard her say, "If abortion had been legal, I would have aborted you."

He told me he heard this his entire life. This was from a couple who had been married for 40 years. They only wanted one child, his older sister. My husband spent his entire life, until they died, trying to "please them" and change their minds.

Don't think it just comes from young, unmarried people.

[elocs]

30. I have a good friend who is like a mother to me who was told by her mother as a child,

"I would have been happy if it wasn't for you". She had 1 older sister and the irony is that she had another sister who is 14 years younger than she is. Many words are not "just" words because they may either be used to hurt and destroy, or to motivate and inspire and to give hope.

[fudge stripe cookays]

39. Mine told me...

that she wished I'd strangled on my umbilical cord.

I'd say I must have been punishment for her. But of course it was mutual.

[Megahurtz]

5. Absolutely Agreed.

[DearAbby]

6. Everyone should agree with Obama

if you are pro-life or pro-choice...Education is the key. Ignorance causes some very punishing situations

[eleny]

16. Agreed - absolutely!

[Georgie_92]

7. I 'm an Obama supporter, and am pro life.

I knew how he meant it.

[slinkerwink]

18. yep, he was talking about sex education. full quote below:

"This is a very difficult issue, and I understand sort of the passions on both sides of the issue," he said. "I have two precious daughters — they are miracles."

But politicians must trust women to make the right decisions for themselves, he said.

"This is an example where good people can disagree," the Illinois senator said. "The question then is, are there areas that we can agree to that everybody can get behind? We can all agree that we want to reduce teen pregnancies. We can all agree that we want to make sure that adoption is a viable option."

The exchange appeared to be prompted by Obama's earlier comments that he does not favor abstinence-only education, but rather comprehensive sexual education that includes information on abstinence and birth control.

"Look, I got two daughters — 9 years old and 6 years old," he said. "I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at age 16, so it doesn't make sense to not give them information."

[DJ13]

9. How far right has Clinton pushed the party if her supporters ....

......criticize a statement in support of Pro Choice?

Thats disgusting.

[anonymous171]

19. And they say Obama has the repug support.

Just more Hillary Projection.

[CTyankee]

11. I'm pro-choice and pro-child. I agree with Planned Parenthood's motto:

"every child a wanted child." No child should be "used" as a punishment to women ("she made her bed, now let her lie in it!"). Being pro-choice, I believe that every child should be brought lovingly into the world. If a woman believes that despite her pregnancy being unplanned, she will not have an abortion, then I would support her decision. That is why we are called pro-choice.

[mrJJ]

24. "religious freedom" in the workplace

snip

Furthermore, The Family takes credit for some of Clinton's rightward legislative tendencies, including her support for a law guaranteeing "religious freedom" in the workplace, such as for pharmacists who refuse to fill birth control prescriptions and police officers who refuse to guard abortion clinics.

snip

Sharlet generously attributes Clinton's involvement to the under-appreciated depth of her religiosity, but he himself struggles to define The Family's theological underpinnings. The Family avoids the word Christian but worships Jesus, though not the Jesus who promised the earth to the "meek." They believe that, in mass societies, it's only the elites who matter, the political leaders who can build God's "dominion" on earth. Insofar as The Family has a consistent philosophy, it's all about power--cultivating it, building it and networking it together into ever-stronger units, or "cells." "We work with power where we can," Doug Coe has said, and "build new power where we can't."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/ehrenreich

[elixir]

31. The use of "punishment" puts Obama's spin on what that mother feels for her child. No no.

[eleny]

33. You don't know how every pregnant woman feels about this issue

Some can feel punished if the law doesn't allow them control over their own bodies.

Go pedal your bull somewhere else.

[reggie the dog]

36. You live in the USA

You know that there are some dipshits there that think that they got pregnant because god punished them for having recreational sex. If only the dipshits knew about the pill, the morning after pill, and how condoms reduce pregnancy, you know, science, then they would not have to think god was punishing them and they would actually be able to take control of their own lives.

How would you like to be the kid of someone who thought you were god's punishment for some kind of pleasure your mom had?

I have a daughter. I will teach her values. Among them being responsible is going to take center stage. She will be taught that sex can be great recreation, even cooler than drugs (for her that depends on her partner because lots of guys do not take care of their ladies properly so some women rarely have orgasims), if proper precautions are taken to drastically reduce the risk of STD and unwanted pregnancy.

[bliss_eternal]

38. Let's look at your statement:

Quote:
You know that there are some dipshits there that think that they got pregnant because god punished them for having recreational sex. If only the dipshits knew about the pill, the morning after pill, and how condoms reduce pregnancy, you know, science, then they would not have to think god was punishing them and they would actually be able to take control of their own lives.


First of all, are you calling women dipshits?

Second of all, there are lots of women that don't have access to the pill, or the morning after pill.

On edit--Did you miss the reports that pharmacists have been refusing to fill women's prescriptions for the pill and morning after pill, based on the pharmacists personal, moral beliefs? If you did(miss it), I'll be happy to provide links to articles about this information. :)

Given that this administration has pushed abstinence only vs. actual education, some young women aren't made aware of condoms or how to successfully prevent pregnancy. This administration has also declared war on women's rights to birth control(aided by pharmacists, the fda, and other entitities). Again, I can provide links if necessary.

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to look at sites like Planned Parenthood and Naral. Such websites can show you the statistics around the country regarding regarding budget cuts that have adversely affected sex education, choice laws that prevent women from obtaining affordable birth control and clinic closures. Clinics provide much more to low income women that abortions.

[reggie the dog]

41. sarcasim

My original post was sarcastic. I know the USA is fucked up and that women have trouble accessing the pill/the moring after pill because pharmacists are sometimes fundies. I do still think that a woman has to be a dipshit to think that pregnancy is the punishment of god for having fun, but they are only dipshits for letting religion limit their existence.

I know Planned Parenthood, they saved my ass once in Chicago before the morning after pill was legal, they still sold it as a "social experiment" or something like that. We paid 20 dollars or so to get the morning after pill when the condom I was using broke. Thankfully I didn't have sex with women who let religion blind them. Which is what I was trying to hint at with my sarcasim. The fact that religion is blinding Americans to science. Luckily I grew up in Elk Grove Village, a town that taught sex education including how to use condoms. But hey, even if you grew up in rural Nebraska you can still find out about sex ed by looking on the net instead of watching American idol......unless your fundie parents contoll everything, then you are just fucked and would not be part of the people I called dipshits (though I would argue that the parents were either dipshits, assholes, or both)

[bliss_eternal]

42. Given that you reiterate....

...comments you made in your prior post, your claim of 'sarcasm' is lost on me.

[Withywindle]

47. I don't get the outrage, I really, really don't.

Does anyone really think that there aren't misogynist fundies out there who DO, in fact, see an unwanted pregnancy as a fit punishment for those "sluts" who have sex? Who are careless enough to "get themselves" raped? Of course there are. Lots of them.

And of course the mother's feelings make all the difference between a "miracle" and a "punishment," which is why choice is necessary!


Look, I don't want children. Never have, probably never will (I'm almost 40). If I were forced to carry an accidental pregnancy to term against my will, I absolutely WOULD experience it as a punishment--one of the worst. I'm very fortunate to have grown up with decent sex education and access to contraception. I am militantly pro-choice for the sake of other women who weren't so lucky.

[bliss_eternal]

48. Great post....!

:thumbsup: