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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:50 PM
Original message
Teenage girls with a baby are punished.
Edited on Mon Mar-31-08 08:25 PM by Emit
And those of you who have never experienced what a teenage pregnancy is like in your own family or in a close friend's family, or from the perspective of volunteering with unwed teenage mothers, might not be able to imagine the punishment that comes with it.

I speak from personal experience. When my 14 yo sister became pregnant in 1970, she hid her pregnancy from my parents for 5 months out of fear and embarrassment. She hid it from her friends, and from her older two siblings (I was the youngest, 8 at the time). She hid it from school; from teachers and counselors. She had no one -- her only friend she told was miles away (we had just moved at the beginning of fall and she got pregnant in the summer before we moved). She didn't even tell the young teenage boy with whom she had conceived. I can assure you, the burden she bore at that time was punishment.

My sister was no longer able to attend her high school. The school wouldn't allow it, so she went to a home for unwed teenage mothers -- can you imagine being 5 months pregnant at the age of 14 and being sent away to some strange home in a big city? We moved shortly after my nephew was born, and my sister did go back to finish her HS degree, but the punishment continued. My mother stayed home to watch the baby, and that created untold discomfort between a young, confused, scared teenage girl of 15 and a mother who was resentful, and ashamed and angry at herself and her daughter. When my sister was a senior, she was nominated for HS Prom Queen. She was very excited and proud. Within a week of the contest, the female Principal called my mother and told her that my sister's name would have to be withdrawn, because, as the Principal put it, "An unwed teenage mother representing the high school was not the image the school wanted to present." I can assure you, the burden she bore at that time was punishment.

I could go on, and tell you about the opportunities missed for my sister, about how she rushed into marriage with with an unstable young man because she likely felt she had few choices. I could tell you about the resentment that was created from this situation between her and my parents, particularly my mother, who despite being a decent and good person, had such difficulty, such anger and embarrassment about the situation, that to this day, they can barely talk about it, even though they talk almost every day and love each other very much. It's hard to put into words how difficult this was for them both. I could go on and tell you about the missed education she had, about how her dreams were never really fulfilled, because what was best for her was to take short cuts in order to support herself and her child. I can tell you about how she missed the best part of her teenage years. But I won't go on, because frankly, it is painful. All of this, I can assure you, was punishment.

My sister never regrets the birth of her child, although she does regret the decision she made to have sex. Nor does she feel it was her child who punished her -- but she is sensitive to the punishment she received from her own family, her school, and society, in general. And while times have changed, and it is likely not unheard of these days for the HS Prom Queen to be a teenage mother, I can tell you there are still burdens that it creates -- shame from family and friends and teachers and schools, opportunities lost, that, in turn, become a punishment for the girl. I know this from my own experience as well, from working with alcohol and drug addicts in women-with-children programs, and from living down the street from a family who used to take in unwed teenage mothers.

Let's put this into perspective and context. Teenage girls with a baby are punished.


edit typo
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Who are you trying to convince? Yourselves?
Because Hillary supporters have pretty much moved on to other topics.

:shrug:
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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That's good... since it was never really an issue to begin with.
And now all of my fellow Obama supporters are just feeding it instead of letting it die.

This was probably the biggest non-story spin I have read this whole election cycle. And here it is... going on and on and on.

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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You are one cold lady, that's for sure.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. to the bone.
:eyes:
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. You can roll your eyes all you want, but, frankly, your response to my post was cold and insensitive
and your posts on this topic elsewhere on DU that I glanced at today that purposefully distort the comment Obama made are equally insensitive to women.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. have they found a new false slime to spread What's next? Obama hunts kitties???
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. No they haven't...there's more threads within the last couple of hours.
All spouting the same shit.
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. Your thread was locked just this morning-that isn't that long
Edited on Mon Mar-31-08 09:44 PM by Reterr
Are people supposed to "move on" the minute you have had enough with a topic :shrug:? Anyway there are many other threads about it by Clinton supporters here.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Maddy's basically admitting that her outrage-a-thon was a pile of horsecrap. nt
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. I wasn't outraged at all. I did learn, however, that it's impossible to have...
reasonable conversation on ANY topic with the Brobots at DU anymore.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. What's a "Brobot" Maddy?
Let's see you explain that while not revealing too much about your attitudes...
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. A Barack Robot.
= Brobot.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. My thread was locked because I PM'd mods and asked that it be locked...
because of comments such as "I wish you would have been aborted" that were in it.

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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Really? I thought the locking message said it was locked as "flamebait"
Edited on Tue Apr-01-08 01:47 AM by Reterr
That is odd-I thought generally when posts are locked at a poster's request, the locking mod explicitly states "Locking at the OP's request"-at least that is what I have usually seen here :shrug:.
I am sorry you had to deal with comments like that but they seem to be common in here-everyone who comes in here deals with that stuff. No helping it-that is what message boards are like. At least this one is moderated.


Regardless, there are lots of other Clinton supporters beating this dead horse. It is really a joke at this point for anyone to pretend we are talking about issues here-all we talk about is inconsequential crap about pastors, weird or hostile supporters, Obama hating children etc. etc. It is tiresome when the Repugs do it to us-it is tiresome when we do it to ourselves. It is getting too close to the GE imo to continue this (as I see it) mostly egotistical fight over whose nominee gets picked.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. Yes, and that was said to ME
by one of your fellow hillyfans. And why? Because I said that I had had an abortion as a teenager.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. OMG, cali
I looked back on that thread just now, and I see (although the specific post was deleted) where that was said. The way Maddy wrote her comment above here implies that the comment was directed at he. And it was an HRC supporter saying that to you? That's just plain wrong, IMHO. I'm sorry that poster said that to you. It's disgusting.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. It was pretty surprising to see that
here on DU. And btw, your OP here is GREAT, Emit. Really brings it all into focus.
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AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. Wow, Maddy.
That's just nasty.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. Maddy, my friend, I can't tell you how disappointed I've been
to see the rancour and flames raised around this issue. I purposefully stayed away from the board yesterday because I had a very visceral reaction to the stunning twisted parsing that should never have occurred that I felt I could not be civil. No member of a party that purports to be supportive of women who find themselves in these circumstances should be lobbing grenades over this. I'm hoping we don't see a repeat of yesterday and reserve our collective outrage for those who would truly strip women of their rights.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
43. typical of you to show such complete insenstivity toward others
YOU expect people to fawn all over you because you, as an ADULT, don't feel punished by your son, who was conceived within marriage, despite your being a single mother for most of his life, but you do nothing but sneer at Emit's painful story.

How sickening.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
46. Just like a young man sometimes does
after a baby is born and takes his opportunities while she loses hers because she has to defend herself against the hits she will take as she defends herself and her child against an elitist society.
Not unlike when a candidate takes a hit on an unpopular position.
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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. This conversation needs to end... on both sides.
We are responding to bull shit spin from the Clinton talking heads. Stop it. We all know what he was getting at. We don't need to dignify their bogus attacks by responding.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. This one hit a little too close to home for me, demdog78
And while I understand your point, and agree that shit has been spun, I had to make my own point on what Obama was getting at.
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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I understand, while I obviously am not a single mother...
My mom was a single mother, and she worked her ass off; normally 2 or 3 jobs at a time to raise my sister and myself.

That is why I find it so offensive that these people are spinning what he said knowing damn well there is nothing to their bullshit.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. It IS so offensive
And that's why I had to respond -- and not on one of their threads. I didn't want to give them the attention it doesn't deserve.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. I can relate, this happened to my sister in 1970
She was a senior in high school, her boyfriend was freshman in college. Easter weekend the family was told. She was only 4 months along and only 2 months to finish school, yet the school kicked her out. She could not walk down with her class to graduate, but she did receive her diploma. She and her boyfriend were married in May 1970, and baby was born in August. It was not easy time for her, or for any of us. I could continue on, lots to her life, but I will stop here before I end up writing a book.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for sharing your story
And you are absolutely right. Getting pregnant at a young age is a punishment, and it is punished by society.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. What did they do wrong to deserve this punishment?
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I'm not sure I understand your intent in asking such a question
All I can say is that these situations are too complicated to try and fit them into black and white, right or wrong equations. :shrug:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Punishment implies fault.
Edited on Mon Mar-31-08 10:18 PM by joshcryer
Otherwise why say punishment if you mean hurt? To use key words that the right wing eats up. It's the girls fault for not having birth control, for her boyfriend refusing to use a condom, or for being raped.

(BTW, I know you're not saying that, it's proposterous, but punishment implies fault of the person being punished.)
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
51. When you see who's doing the punishing...
...you will understand the nature of the "sin."

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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. yes - teenaged girls who get pregnant ARE punished by pregnancy, even today
A co-workers 14 year old daughter became pregnant a couple years back. She was allowed to continue her schooling (in special classes for moms to be - not her regular school) There is still stigma and prejudice attached. Even if the immediate family supports the mom-to-be it is very difficult.

I told her dad (a Christian who walks the walk!) that I thought it was a shame that kids weren't given sex education - including how to prevent pregnancy - in school. Had this girl been given the FACTS then she could have made an informed decision. She still might have made the "wrong" choice and ended up pregnant, but at least she would have had a fighting chance - she could have been told that "pulling out before cum-ing" is NOT protection, she could have been told that there is NO safe time of the month, she could have heard about how often condoms fail (a lot LESS often than young boys pulling out before they cum....) - she would have had some real information....

Funny thing is - her dad agreed with me. He said that they had taught abstinence only, which only caused his child even MORE pain as she felt she had sinned and disgraced the family with her "weakness"

...sigh.....
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I'd really like to know where there is a school that teaches these
things and doesn't teach sex education.
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Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Abstinence only is taught in some areas.
snip: There are three federal programs dedicated to funding restrictive abstinence-only education: Section 510 of the Social Security Act, the Adolescent Family Life Act’s teen pregnancy prevention component and Community-Based Abstinence Education (CBAE). The total funding for these programs is $176 million for FY 2006.<25>

• Federal law establishes a stringent eight-point definition of “abstinence-only education” that requires programs to teach that sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong and harmful—for people of any age. The law also prohibits programs from advocating contraceptive use or discussing contraceptive methods except to emphasize their failure rates.<26>

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_sexEd2006.html

snip: There is currently no federal program dedicated to supporting comprehensive sex education that teaches young people about both abstinence and contraception.<29>
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. I find it VERY hard to believe that any public high school in
Edited on Tue Apr-01-08 11:58 PM by JeanGrey
America teaches no sex education at all and that "pulling out" and nonsense like that is taught.

I've been in public ed in schools all over the usa and was never taught this. EVER. Besides I was never that stupid. Heck I graduated in 1972 and we weren't taught abstinence only. I read the report but I don't see any school names.
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Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. I don't think
"pulling out" is being taught..that comes from peers most likely.

I remember hearing they wanted to double the funding a couple years ago for abstinence only programs. I have no idea how many schools utilize the program but I do remember hearing at that time that the programs do not work to protect from pregnancy or STD's because the kids are never taught that they should use protection.

I don't have any idea which schools are utilizing the programs but it's enough that they did a study. Google Kirby abstinence report.
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. I still think that it is highly doubtful that anywhere in the US there
are kids not being taught about birth control.
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Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-02-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I don't have a lot of time to look it up..here's a quick link
For instance, in North Dakota, sex education is encouraged but there are few guidelines about what should be taught. In South Carolina, state law severely restricts sex education. There can be no discussion of contraception except with reference to marriage, no discussion of abortion, and nothing said about homosexuality except with reference to preventing sexually transmitted diseases. And in Texas, at least since the days when George W. Bush was governor, sex ed classes almost exclusively espouse abstinence-only messages.

In contrast, Oregon, California and New Jersey mandate that if a school does teach about sex it must provide medically accurate information, and age-appropriate and respectful discussion of the diversity of relationships, including those involving people with disabilities.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9504871/

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Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Some of us understand the pain Emit
I imagine Obama has seen the pain somewhere too. I am so glad he suggests adding sex education and contraceptive protection for our youth.

Right now, this very minute, there's a teenage girl who is pregnant. She was never educated on sex, didn't even think she was pregnant until she was 4 months along. When she found out she was pregnant, she also found out she has an STD. She's learning..learning that a baby slowly forms and then gets bigger, she thought a baby was completely formed at conception. She didn't even know how long a pregnancy lasted.

She's a foster kid, bounced from Mom to Grandparents and into the foster system a couple years ago. She has anger problems and was arrested and charged with assault for hitting another student just because she didn't like the way the kid looked at her. I wonder what will become of her and her child.

Another teen in her same class is 17, has one child and is pregnant with another.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. All children are punishment until they're two.
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. I've been away from the 'puter
and the news and don't know what Obama said, but yes, teenage pregnancy is hell on the girls...adoption is not always the answer either. Either way, she suffers. Too bad some folks are so insensitive to it. That's why it still happens even 38 years later.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
20. Full-grown adults with babies are punished. And blessed.
:shrug:

And anyone who says different ain't never been one.

NGU.


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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Then that makes me punished and blessed three-fold!
And, it makes me feel special. ;)
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I hear ya!
:toast:

NGU.


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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. I am so sorry
Damn, we haven't come far since the Scarlett Letter days.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
24. Nominated.
Thank you for sharing this with us.

I am a retired social worker. I know that children of young, often unmarried mothers often face difficult situations, too. The children of teenaged mothers are more likely to be raised in poverty. The highest documented rates of child neglect and abuse in the three counties I worked in took place in homes headed by single females. The statistics indicate that children from single parent families are more likely to experience problems at home, in school, and in the community.

Obviously, many single parent families function very well. Children who live in single parent families often do very well at home, in school, and in the community. But we should be able to speak frankly about serious social issues without some folks attempting to spin them into para-right-wing talking points.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. It is truly disheartening that we would even have DUers trying to
to spin such an important issue as this into "para-right-wing talking points."



Thanks for your input, H2O Man. As always, it's much appreciated.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
26. And many who give them up are punished all throughout their
Edited on Mon Mar-31-08 08:50 PM by merh
adulthood, they punish themselves wondering what has come of their child, has he/she had a good home, is he/she still healthy and alive, happy and well adjusted. They punish themselves wondering if they did the right thing and they long for their child and they wonder what if. They punish themselves wanting to find their child but terrified their child will reject them for giving them up. Many are punished because the child does reject them, many are punished because they never do find the child and the gapping holes remain filled only with questions, fears and remorse.

Society does punish the unwed moms and they often punish themselves far more than society ever could.

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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
31. It is not Obama's position to assume whether it is a punishment or not. The mother makes that decis
ion.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. The mother makes the decision as to whether it's punishment or not?
Are you serious?
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. I had a friend who kept her child.
She refused to give him up for adoption. The kid was in high school (in the early 1980s) and they got into huge shouting matches. He would yell, "You should have given me up to some rich people, so I could be rich, instead of poor!!" yada yada.

She was embarrassed about having him, but not distressed enough to file for paternity and child support with the kid's father in New York. The father was an internationally acclaimed classical musician who made recordings on RCA Red Seal.

Too bad the child never had a relationship with his father.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
33. And Obama WAS talking about teenage girls, not all women in general
Thanks for the reality check.

:applause:
rocknation
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
35. Powerful, moving OP - K & R.
n/t.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
45. 1970? How about examples from this century.
I taught high school back in the 90s and while it wasn't ideal, there were many things set up to help girls who were giving birth that I am sure were not in place in the 70s when I was in high school. We had over 60 girls in the program. They were not social outcasts and they had a lot of family support.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
49. why is this in GD:P? n/t
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