Stop being assholes

[lwcon]

The remaining two Democratic candidates for president are incredibly similar politically. Look at their voting records for fuck's sake.

You may have perfectly legitimate reasons for preferring one to the other and for arguing your points, vociferously or otherwise. If you do it with integrity, then rock on my friend, even if you're backing the candidate I don't prefer.

But for fuck's sake, would you stop acting like someone isn't a loyal Democrat because their choice among these two centrists is different from yours!?

You have my fucking apology for my use of language here. Real civility isn't about four-letter words or lack thereof. It's about showing some fucking respect to people whose commitment to worthy values is as legitimate as yours is.

To a very large extent, this nomination process is about intangibles. Some of us are going to disagree with your assessment. A lot of you disagree with mine. Fair enough.

But stop acting like I'm a fucking traitor to my country and my party for no other reason than my being in the roughly half of the party who prefers the candidate you didn't choose, don't like, or even outright despise.

I'm not saying that the candidates are identical. I have a strong preference, which gets stronger by the day.

I may well have a bone to pick with your candidate and some of your candidate's supporters, as you may with mine. Let's not pretend otherwise.

But, if your arguments are honest, and your facts are straight, I'll respect you for that, even if you came to a different conclusion... especially if you're committed to supporting whichever Democrat represents us against McCain in November.

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[goldcanyonaz]

1. Okay.

:grouphug:

[lwcon]

4. Good deal. Thanks. n/t

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[Umbram]

2. That's totally $%#@'ing true, I couldn't %(#*& a *#&$^ any more. You tell those $#@(ers. (nt)

[patrice]

14. !

:rofl:

[loveangelc]

3. this primary season is getting boring. NO ONE is talking about issues anymore.

Its always Hillary is a liar, Obama is a liar, Hillary is phony, Obama is phony, Rev. Wright, Bosnia, who attacked who personally, someone called someone the n word, etc etc. Maybe I should give up on politics until at least May :(.

[Cha]

5. Says the

asshole.

[lwcon]

18. Thank you for your unity! n/t

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[sandnsea]

6. Well for fucks sake

Just because some of you excuse lying and corruption, doesn't mean all of us have to. How about you stop telling us there's something wrong with us because we DO see the difference between the two candidates.

[lwcon]

12. That's a "no," then. OK. n/t

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[maddiejoan]

34. wait

I thought you were supporting Obama?

Now I'm confused.

[Ravy]

7. Well said;.

[pocoloco]

8. You first!!

[Ishoutandscream2]

9. Alright! More common sense in GDP!!

Excellent post!

[Life Long Dem]

10. And one is a serial liar. Take your choice!! Terrorist attack, sniipers!!!

:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:

[lwcon]

37. Not going to take the bait

Anyone who's read me before knows I have a list of reservations about Obama a mile long. And it includes lies about highly important matters.

If you do your homework, you'll find out that Obama isn't all that pure and that Hillary is a legitimate centrist Democrat, just like Obama is.

But I don't expect you to be drummed out of the party for preferring him over my candidate. That's not fair enough?

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[Skittles]

11. well said

:thumbsup:

[CitizenRob]

13. Wait, THIS is an April Fools Day joke right?

Civility on GD: P? Skinner was right, I'm a hack compared to this brilliance.

[keep_it_real]

15. The problem is: Hillary lies. If she was telling the truth - no problem

But, like she said today, that Obama wanted to prevent the people of NC from not voting is a out right, in your face, I don't care, LIE.

Obama said yesterday that Hill should stay in the race; meaning that the people NC should get a chance to vote.

But for Hill to bold face LIE , not once, but repeatedly on Obama, makes people who love truth hate her with a passion.

It is not even about Obama, it is about "truth."

Yes, Obama has maybe been caught in a few tales but not the habitual lying of Hillary.

Some have said that there is nothing greater than Truth, not even God.

[L0oniX]

16. Flash: Hillary bows out of the primary race......

April fools.

:evilgrin:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. You go first. nt.

[lwcon]

20. I have strong opinions, and I'm not shy with them

But I never take the approach that merely because someone prefers the other of these two politically similar candidates that there's anything de facto disloyal or stupid about that person.

That's not to say that when those supporters do act like assholes, I'm going to pretend that they're not. And that's also not to say that when the candidate I don't prefer fucks up, that I'll bite my tongue about it.

But it's a cryin' shame that preferring one half of Hillbama over the other is being treated like a crime against the party and the country.

I gather from responses like yours, that you don't agree with that. And that's making DU a rather sad place these days.

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[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. I don't have a problem with you supporting Hillary.

I do have a problem with you insulting Obama supporters. You know, like all those blog posts you were doing about how we're in a cult? Remember those? I do hope you take your calls for civility to heart, lwcon. That means you have to abide by them.

[lwcon]

33. Hypothetically...

... let's say that some supporters of candidate X are behaving cultishly. In such an event, to document that observation is telling the truth, not telling an insult. However, if one were to presuppose that because some were acting cultishly that all of them were (or that a few meant that most were, or because user Pat is that user Robin is, etc.), that would be unfair and also stupid. I endeavor not to be unfair and stupid.

I never take the position that someone is a jerk, fool, cultist, or anything else merely because they prefer Obama. That's not to say that those words can never be rightly applied to an Obama supporter... or a Hillary supporter. It's always a question of whether the shoe fits.

If you read the replies in this other thread, which inspired this here OP, you'll see a lot of judging and invective based solely on my preference for Hillary:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5347643&mesg_id=5347643

I ask that the one national outlet for progressive radio not write off the half of the Democratic base that I belong to. And in response I get a torrent of comments that say that Hillary supporters aren't Democrats, would prefer Fox News, etc. I consider that unfair and stupid.

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[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. Oh right, you weren't making a generalization.

It was supposed to be understood that you were only talking about some Obama supporters when you were characterizing the Obama campaign as a scary cult in your blog posts, that were amazingly similar to many others in the blogosphere at the time. It was just a question of whether the shoe fit. The hypothetical shoe that happened to fit the hypothetical foot in your hypothesis. I don't recall you taking pains to assure your readers that you weren't describing all, or the majority of, Obama supporters.

[lwcon]

40. You don't recall me taking those pains...

... but they were in there. Plainly stated caveats that were conveniently and repeatedly ignored, which didn't exactly convince me that a lot of people weren't rather gung-ho about the absolute infallibility of their cause.

I simply don't disrespect all or most Obama supporters. It's convenient to paint me that way (easier than saying, y'know maybe there is something over-the-top going on among some of Obama's advocates). But it doesn't reflect how I feel or what I write.

I do, though, have a lot of concerns about his campaign, including some of the behaviors of some of his supporters.

We're probably never going to see eye-to-eye about whether there is or isn't a cult-of-personality thing going among part of the Obama contingent. Your observation about my comments being "amazingly similar" to others is, I suppose, intended to suggest that my comments were illegitimate, spoon-fed from some spin-meister or other operative or pundit. One might also consider the possibility that it was similar to other comments because what I observed independently correlated with what others observed.

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[mrreowwr_kittty]

41. Really? Do link me to some. Because I don't recall seeing those caveats.

Thanks for once again reminding me of your "concerns" about "the behaviors of some of his supporters" and the "cult-of-personality thing". That you, of course, "observed independently".

:eyes:

[lwcon]

43. I'm sure it wouldn't be worth your time

While, no doubt your eye-rolling smiley and quotation marks are the sign of great sincerity and open-mindedness, I think I'll take a pass on this dance.

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[mrreowwr_kittty]

46. IOW, you have no links.

Exposed for the cynical little fraud that you are.

Buh bye.

[lwcon]

50. My posts are pretty easy to find...

As is your unlistening cynicism. You could have at least continued the pretense of being open-minded.

You insult my integrity by putting "concerned" and "observed independently" in quotes -- and add the subtle touch of the eye-rolling icon -- and expect that I give a rat's ass what you'll "think" if you review my previous posts.

Buh bye, yourself.

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[mrreowwr_kittty]

52. Good morning lwcon!

It's a new day and you're still a hateful lying loser.

Just wanted to let you know that before I put you on ignore.

:hi:

[lwcon]

59. This exchange belongs in a museum

Nice illustration of the logic, open-mindedness, and cordiality that prompted the OP to begin with.

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[IndependentDem]

19. kick and rec for not being assholes...

there is nothing wrong with disagreeing and debating and even fighting. but we don't have to be rude and obnoxious while we do it.

[struggle4progress]

21. Trolls trolls trolls troll spam spam spam spam trolls trolls trolls trolls spam spam spam spam

[lwcon]

25. Say, that's quite an argument...

Other than being content-free and erroneous.

I'm a longtime DUer and a Democratic loyalist. Not a troll.

I wrote this post in reaction to another thread this evening. Not spam.

Please do learn some other internet terms, perhaps you'll find the right one to use on occasion.


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[struggle4progress]

32. Not slamming you but stating an opinion about the major source of asininity in DU:P

Yeah -- I suppose mine is a nasty content-free post

But I honestly don't believe rational argument will slow any of the jerks down: they're deliberately trying to spread dissension among Ds. The sooner we start treating them like trolls, the faster we'll be rid of them

I'll happily vote for either O or C in the general: meanwhile, I'd prefer to bash Rs

[lwcon]

35. I see

Thanks for the clarification.

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[Up2Late]

23. Oh boy, looks like they are ignoring you too, they know you are talking about them.

I can tell be cause I've put most of the A-holes on ignore and it looks like you only got one of them so far.

Hint: look for a very high post count in a short period of time, but no donor star, that covers most of them.

Edit: Sorry, make that two, I just stepped on another one here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. Yup. It's easier to be an asshole when you have nothing invested in the place. n/t

[emilyg]

39. Donor stars have nothing to do with content.

[Up2Late]

42. Yeah, Riiiiiiiiight.

:eyes:

[emilyg]

44. Right. Some people are suffering financially. Grow up.

[zulchzulu]

26. I would assume your OP title is directed to the Hillary Clinton campaign spokespeople

Indeed, they should stop being assholes...and drop the fuck out.

[xchrom]

27. recommend

[DLnyc]

28. Good idea.

Used to be you could get into some interesting discussions on DU. Of course some jerks would always interrupt here and there, but lots of folks would respond in reasoned, polite and actually informative ways.

To be fair, some of the problem is jerks spewing anger an hate, but some of us, perhaps, could be better at not joining in once it starts.

Anybody remember the story about the 'pecking party' in "One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest"?

[Zhade]

29. Let's not pretend they're the same. clinton's a proven liar.

Obama, not so much.

[JayFredMuggs]

31. RIGHT

No need to go any further!

[Swamp Rat]

30. April fool?

:D

[emilyg]

38. K

[JVS]

45. Stop being assholes, unite behind Obama.

If they are so similar, why not just end the fussin and the feudin and back the one who is winning?

[TheWraith]

47. Yes, let's look at their voting records.

Clinton voted for the war, Obama opposed it.

Clinton voted for Kyl-Lieberman, Obama opposed it.

Clinton voted to stop a ban on the use of cluster-bombs against civilians. Obama supported the ban.

Clinton opposed banning the production and use of land mines. Obama supported it.

While I hear what you're saying, it's also completely unrealistic to say that these two are alike, or that it's entirely about intangibles.

[lwcon]

49. I'd have to look into those second two votes

But your first two statements are quite misleading.

Obama wasn't in the Senate at the time of the AUMF. He spoke out against it, then later admitted that he might have voted for it if he'd had the same info and pressures as those in the Senate (and he's voted continuously to keep funding the war). He also repeatedly claimed -- falsely -- that his opposition to it was in the thick of a hotly contested U.S. Senate campaign. That's odd, because his speech was months before he declared for the campaign, and according to his latest book, his campaign for Senate was a cakewalk. (And, if I may digress, one reason his campaign was a cakewalk was that David Axelrod dredged up and flogged embarrassing information about Obama's leading Democratic rival's divorce).

Obama didn't bother to vote either way on Kyl-Lieberman. If K-L was important (and I agree it was -- I'm not happy with either of them about it), I don't count too afraid or too busy to vote against it as "opposition."

Their voting records are nearly identical (IIRC, you could count on one or two hands all the votes where they've differed), and one can point to several positions where Hillary is plainly more progressive, such as supporting a ban on the use of mercenaries and on more aggressively moving towards universal healthcare. Obama, par for the course, says he wants everyone to be insured... and then his book disparages the goal of "socialized medicine."

I have a strong preference, too, and plenty of information. But it's absurd to pretend that on the issues these two aren't in the same ballpark.


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[IndependentDem]

48. kick

:kick:

[EmilyAnne]

51. OK

[littlebit]

53. I don't want to stop being an asshole

I have been one my entire adult life and I am to old to change now. :-)

[Orsino]

54. Nice post, Gandhi.

I mean it. Nice post. :thumbsup:

[The Night Owl]

55. Exactly. One can be for both Clinton and Obama even if one is convinced that...

...one of the two is the better candidate.

[Rob Gregory Browne]

56. kick nt

[beachmom]

57. This board is set up to highlight jerks, unfortunately. But I'll try to

weigh in when I can with facts and a call for sanity.

[NashVegas]

58. "Error: You've already recommended that thread."