A simple question: Why do you believe Obama?

[rug]

This is not about Clinton or why she's a whore, bigot, pig, skank, or any other term you may use to justify a vote for Obama.

A simple direct question: Why do you believe Obama?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Texasgal]

4. PLEASE..PLEASE..

Tell me that isn't true... PLEASE.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Writer]

16. Sexism is alive and well in this COUNTRY.

And we only have ourselves to blame.

[Texasgal]

22. Maybe so... but..

This is DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND.

Use of that word should NOT be tolerated under ANY circumstance....PERIOD.

[Texasgal]

19. I am absolutely disgusted!

Anyone that uses that word is a sexist pig and deserves to be tarred and feathered!!


MODS: WTF?

[Cali_Democrat]

44. I don't think your allowed to call out another member like that

;)

[rug]

9. This thread is about Obama not Clinton.

[Maddy McCall]

14. Well, you posting the names for her that are used against her....

spurred my response.

I won't respond in this thread anymore.

I'm just sickened by the whole thing.

[rug]

20. So am I which is why I wanted to get it out of the way upfront.

[Maddy McCall]

23. I am sorry to have hijacked your thread.

:hug:

I won't respond to any more posts.

[rug]

30. Please come back, You're a stalwart.

:thumbsup:

[Skip Intro]

13. Was the thread locked, Maddy? I want to see it.

And don't let these bots on steroids run you off.

[LibraLiz1973]

17. Yeah...... things are as ugly as I've EVER seen them here

the C word is a-ok but the N word is a no go.
Hmm.

To me, they are BOTH vile and disgusting and NEITHER should be tolerated.
It's funny that it's the word that describes the woman is the one getting by.

[Dawgs]

2. Has he ever given a Democrat a reason not to believe him?

:shrug:

[rug]

5. I still don't know whether he intends to end the war in Iraq in 2009 or whether it depends.

[William769]

6. As usual, a non answer.

:eyes:

[Skip Intro]

7. Has he given us any reason TO believe in him?

:shrug:

I think that was the question.

[LibraLiz1973]

21. Other than saying YES WE CAN

and "Change we can believe in" what has he REALLY said that makes people want to climb on?
A few well turned phrases do not a leader make.

[Skip Intro]

25. It's marketing. Hallmark knows all about it. So does Hershey. And Capital One. And Lunesta.

Or whoever makes Lunesta - giant luminescent butterfly to see you off to a happy trip into anti-reality.

Wow.

[hedgehog]

3. Because he says that he is going to screw up some time or another,

but that we've got to try anyways.

On edit: he listens to questions and thinks about his answers, which is why some people accuse him of stuttering.

Also: he has a real sense of humor and laughs at himself.

[rug]

18. Ok, he's telling the truth about screwing up, but why do you believe his promises are sincere?

[hedgehog]

24. Of all the video I've seen this year, the one piece that keeps coming

back to me is of him walking though a drug store in Iowa and buying two little animal face purses for his girls. He was kidding the news people with him to be sure to note that the purses were for the kids, but by God he was going to buy his sweeties a present even if he did look silly doing it! There is a certain integrity there that goes to the bone.

[rug]

31. I agree with that.

[Willo]

51. Totally agree about him thinking before he speaks

[tekisui]

10. New voters, Young voters, Crossover voters.

He is respected, intelligent and articulate. He would give America something to be proud of, and renew the respect of our thinning allies.

Coattails.

I think he and Clinton are ready, willing an able. I think he would receive broader support in the General, and grow Our Majority in the House, Senate and Local seats. More Democrats means more Progressives.

Edit to add: He will close Gitmo. He will restore Habeas. He will review EVERY chimpy signing statement and E.O. He vows to get our troops out of Iraq starting his first day, and as quickly as possible.

[rug]

29. He is an outstanding capaigner but why do you believe he will actually do any of those things?

My impression is that, campaigning notwithstanding, he is very much a cautious, conventional politician. I believe he voted for the "revised" Patriot Act, easily see him maintaining Guantanamo "for a time" and am skeptical when the words "as quickly as possible" are appended to any promise about ending the war.

He clearly will move in the right direction, unlike McCain, but I don't see anything in this campaign to indicate to me that he will actually do much more than is politically expedient.

[tekisui]

40. I am leary of him or Clinton steping up and being change agents.

I doubt either are going to be champions of the Progressive movement---right away. For me, it is less about the candidate and more about the push to a Progressive Agenda. The people are voting for Progressive policies, and our representatives, I believe, want to make it happen.

The thing is, we need a Dem in the WH. And we need as many Dems in the House and Senate as politically possible. More Dems means more Progressives. More Progressives and Stronger Dems means better laws being sent up to a amenable Dem President.

I think Obama has coattails. And I trust that he will do his best to get the troops out of Iraq. I honestly think he will work harder on this than Hillary would, and I know he would work a helluva lot harder than McDubya.

[rug]

58. One reason I'm sanguine about this year is that I'm convinced either will win the election.

You may be right about the coattails but I'm less hopeful that even a stronger Democratic Congress will step up and push through what needs to be done.

The downside is that if Obama does not deliver, worse, that if he makes only languid attempts to move them things strongly and quickly, the backlash will be horrendous.

[tekisui]

61. And, in that case, the backlash will be well-deserved.

He had better step up, or we will be stuck with some very bad choices. And the American People will lose.

[TheDoorbellRang]

69. I found his words on Iraq more reassuring for their caution

When he says he will remove them barring unforseen circumstances, that seems more realistic than someone who would say the troops are all coming home next February, come hell or high water. Who can predict what idiocies the Bush administration will commit between now and January?

I find him trustworthy because of his record -- going all the way back to how he won the presidency of the Harvard Law Review. The conservatives in the Harvard Law school threw their vote to him because they felt he was the one candidate most apt to listen to their point of view, and that is a method of unifying completely foreign to this administration. And because he is so good at listening, he is good at reframing -- not by pushing hot conservative buttons by dubbing something progressive, but by reframing an issue to be a core value for all Americans --liberal and conservative alike. I also foresee if he IS having problems with a recalcitrant conservative bloc, he will be able to garner massive support from a population inspired to political involvement like never before.

Then there's my "gut" feeling. I've worked with the public for 30+ years and you learn to read people pretty well. There are darn few politicians that I trust, but Obama is one of them. He has a note of sincerity that I rarely see in politicians. If that's an act, he deserves an oscar.

[rug]

74. Thanks for you thoughtful response.

[Stuart G]

11. Over all he seems to lie much less than Hillary. Also..

His lies, (most people lie) seem less strident and harmful than his Hillary's lies.

[Writer]

26. We do not know that yet... we won't know until fifteen years from now...

after the Republican Party and disenchanted Democrats get through with him.

[rug]

34. I'm on that same wavelength this primary. But hope meshed with lies is a big turnoff.

[LibraLiz1973]

12. I DON'T

nuff said

[The Ghost]

15. Gut feeling.

Plain and simple. My instincts on people are almost always correct, so I go with them.

[rug]

35. Me too.

[Condem]

57. The same thing

as your husband or wife. How do you know? Gut feeling.

[RichardRay]

27. Because I know people who choose to work for him

and who work with him every day. Not in his campaign, with him. I've known some of those people for a very long time and I know what their values are and what they've always stood for. If those people tell me he's the real deal then I believe them. It also helps that he does exactly what I'd expect him to do if he were the person I believe he is.

Not much of a reason for anyone else, I suppose, but it's quite conclusive for me...

[rug]

39. That is how I pick a dentist. And it works. But I don't know anybody who works with him.

[RichardRay]

47. Well, like I said...

I don't expect it to carry Pennsylvania for him, but it's the reason I believe him...

[rug]

54. That's a solid answer. Thank you.

[sandnsea]

28. His Illinois record backs up his words

Hillary's doesn't.

Pretty simple.

[William769]

32. Yea voting present tells us alot!

:eyes:

[Rosemary2205]

41. Spoken like a true koolaid drinker.

Obama is not my first, second or third choice. Hillary ranks even lower and McCain isn't even worth a sniff. But come on. 10 seconds TOPS on Google and you can find out WHY Obama voted "present" in Illinois. And find out that it was the most progressive choice he could make given the rules in the Illinois Senate.

Put down the idiotic koolaid and do the Google.

[IndyHatedByBothSides]

37. Michelle Obama

They appear to have a strong marriage, and they appear to be very loyal to each other.

[rug]

42. No, it's not that simple. In fact, his whole legislative career in Illinois

shows his capacity to compromise and cronyize. If anything, it's a reason for skepticism and disbelief.

[sandnsea]

46. Oh My God --- He compromised!!!!

And children still have health care and working families still have an expanded eic and death row inmates still have a better interrogation system and there's still a system to monitor racial profiling.

Honestly. You guys are beyond belief. :eyes:

[rug]

52. Nice tempered use of exclamation points.

However, the one thing I am impressed with is the state law he sponsored requiring the videotaping of police interrogations. I'm not convinced that translates into closing Guantanamo when he has a wider audience and more intransigent interests to deal with. Get back to me on your compromise when it remains open and the war continues because "the ground situation" has changed.

BTW, there's only one person typing this. Perhaps you should schedule an eye exam.

[sandnsea]

56. Hillary is the one who will continue the war

She is the one that told Code Pink that Saddam wasn't cooperating and he had the power to stop the war, the same line Bush was using. She is the one that said we had to "stay the course", in Nov 2003. She is the one who opposed efforts to put in a timeline, until she started running. She's the one that continues the war talk by supporting Kyl-Lieberman. The question is -- why in the world do you believe her?? She has given you NO reason to think she will do what she promises.

[rug]

59. That's a topic for another thread. So, when will he end the war?

[sandnsea]

65. Always the same

As soon as any one of you is backed into a corner with her shit, you change the subject.

He's introduced legislation and will withdraw troops along the same timeline as his legislation. He's made it perfectly clear. There is absolutely no basis to say you can't trust his word.

[rug]

73. Don't overestimate your ability to even sweep dust into a corner.

And don't start squalling about changing the subject since you began with your Hillary Hate bullshit.

Now, as to content, he has contradicted his website position on a "timeline" numerous times this campaign. I believe his latest position is he would convene a meeting of miltary advisers and then decide. Just as every conventional politician has said they would do. Yet he continues to promise in campaign speeches he will end this war in 2009. There is ample basis to distrust his words. And an even more ample basis to dismiss yours.

[sandnsea]

77. The advisers will decide the best method

Not decide whether or not to withdraw, unless there is some drastic unforeseen change between now and then. It is outrageous to take honest caution and manipulate it into dishonesty. It's just another Clintonian lie. And you still have got nothing to say about Hillary's record on Iraq, which gives more than ample basis to KNOW she is going to stay in Iraq, if you just wake up and pay attention to what they said and did in the 90's and what all her advisers said and did then, before the invasion, and since. She has given absolutely no reason to believe she is going to end the war.

[rug]

79. Q.E.D.

[sandnsea]

80. Ignore, you're worthless n/t

[rug]

83. And thus passes another GDP poseur in a huff of smoke.

[DearAbby]

33. I believe him

because he comes across as human, not the untouchable elite. His message of change and hope resonates with me. Also his youth, I feel it is time to hand the mantle off to those who are younger, he is that bridge. He also comes across as honest, hasn't had the time in Washington to appear corrupt.

His platform and record is very similar to Senator Clinton's, it's just that I have had Clinton and Bush fatigue. If Hillary's last name was Smith, and she had ran a better-honest campaign, I would be more objective.

[rug]

45. Fair enough.

[Rosemary2205]

36. I don't believe either one of them.

They are POLITICIANS - trusting a politician is pure idiocy.

Now, I will say I think Obama is more likely than either McCain or Clinton to throw the little guy a few bones along the way of lining the pockets of his friends. Pure speculation on my part given that I KNOW FOR A FACT McCain nor Clinton give a flying shit about me and mine.

Call it a desperate hope.

[Zachstar]

38. Because I don't believe Clinton for one.

Because he was against the start of the Iraq war back when it was unpopular to be against it. For another.

[rug]

48. It was a very popular position in his state senatorial district.

And that speech was given at a well attended and well connected antiwar rally.

And this thread is not about Clinton. There are oodles of those.

[frazzled]

66. He was running for US Senate when he gave that speech ...

It was not necessarily popular in the whole state. Especially downstate, which is quite conservative, and which is where he had to do well.

His state senate district was not really the relevant issue here.

[rug]

75. No, he gave the speech in October 2002. He ran for the U.S. Senate in 2004.

His audience in 2002 is indeed relevant in measuring the reliability of his words.

[frazzled]

82. I stand corrected ... but

it still cannot be said that an anti-war stance before the IWR was popular, even in liberal districts, back in 2002. I lived in MA at the time (I live in Chicago now), in one of the most liberal towns in that liberal state: and both my Representative (Ed Markey) and Senator (John Kerry) not only did not give a speech against the war, they both voted for it, despite opposition from constituents. I can't remember what my state senator did: nothing, I think. I attended anti-war rallies, and she was not there.

Obama had ambitions beyond the state senate then (yes, I know Peter Fitzgerald did not announce his retirement until just after the war broke out in 03). Politicians, even at the state level, were few and far between in appearing at anti-war rallies--especially as early as October 2002.

Give the guy some credit. He not only spoke out when almost no one did, it was an extremely powerful, reasoned, and prescient speech. Read it again.

[rug]

85. He certainly earned praise for that speech. The voices against the war were few and far between.

But I think there's a tinge of dishonesty in conflating it into more than it was. He gave no speech that even approached it once he was actually on the U.S Senate floor. He could have done much in 2006-2007 to put the skids on this war. That's part of my unease with his candidacy. When he was in a position to speak out nationally, he instead kept a low profile until he announced he was running for President.

[frazzled]

91. So you weren't really asking a question of people.

You just want to rebut everybody's answers to your question with your own opinions. Nice. I get it now.

The war had been going on for years by the time Obama got to the Senate: the time for pontificating was long gone. It was a different question by that point. And nothing he could have said (or even done) could cause George W. Bush to bring the troops home. (Though he did introduce some relsolutions.) We all know that. Not even defunding the war would have brought the troops home. Honest. Bush does what he wants. Don't blame a freshman senator for what the entire U.S. Congress could not do. And certainly Clinton did nothing. So what else is new.

And really, don't ask questions just to hear yourself talk.

[NC_Nurse]

43. He connects with me when he speaks. I have felt that occasionally with her,

but not as consistently. I like his reasoning and I understand his approach to issues and people.

[rug]

49. Ok, I hope your instincts are right.

[NC_Nurse]

64. Me too.

[Willo]

50. I believe him because he has demonstrated

a consistent display of honesty and integrity. This is displayed by:

-He has had ample opportunity to exploit Clinton in areas other than issues and chooses not to.

-That the little dirt found on him, by the many searching with white gloves, is proof that there really isn't anything there. He's old enough and has been in politics long enough for better stuff than Wright to surface and stick.

-The many, many photos (excluding the rallies and crowds),of people smiling and having a good time while with him.

[anigbrowl]

53. Because he's willing to say things that he knows full well are going to be unpopular

I made my decision when he made the comment last year about being willing to pursue bin Laden with or without the cooperation of the Pakistani government. This is also my view (I have a low opinion of Pervez Musharraf and Pakistan's intelligence service). He got roasted for it by everyone from Bush to the anti-war movement - possibly the only time they have ever agreed with the president - and yet Obama didn't back down or redefine or say he misspoke.

It would have been much easier to backpedal and say he meant making his case for military action at the UN or something. He didn't but instead stuck to his guns. And I thought, with guts like that he can't fail.

[Tribetime]

55. I've been disappointed by others. I'll give him a chance

[wileedog]

60. There is no easy answer

Politics and/or any leadership always require a leap of faith.

McCain has been a weather vain his entire political career. There is nothing to trust there other than he will do the absolutely wrong thing, and support whatever position du jour he needs to.

Clinton has always, always, always had honesty issues. The Clinton Way is triangulation, say the right thing at the right time to the right people and hope all those people don't spend too much time comparing notes later. She has displayed in her campaign every tactic, every nuance, every tired same old shit that has led our political situation into the complete hole that it is in. She has a lot of great plans, I just doubt she will get many of them done. Her plans require a major shift in the way Washington works that I do not believe she is equipped or has the ability or possibly even the desire to achieve.

And there's Obama, who brings his message that obviously many have bought into and many have not. And in some ways the lack of experience that is used against works for him. We don't have definitive proof, a proven track record to say that he is lying like we do the other two candidates. We can see the effect he has on us, but can he bring that to the next level? Can he truly deliver on something so many of us believe is so necessary to change if we are going to change as a country?

We want to believe.

I have no illusions what I get with McCain. I have no illusions what I get with Clinton. Whatever the two of them peddle, I've seen enough of their history to know its a lot of pandering to get through this whole annoying election technicality so they and their backers can get back to business as usual.

I don't know with Obama. It may be that simple that I am so tired of the fucking status quo that those other two will bring that I will risk it on a mere promise. That if he is for real, he brings so much more to the table than the other two could possibly ever hope to achieve. *IF* he is for real, he can be the guy that breaks a steady and horrible downward spiral that I believe faces the people of this country. I have zero confidence that Hillary is interested in that change, other than having slightly different icing on her Globalist cake.

It may very well fail even if he is elected. But my expectations for a Clinton or McCain Presidency are so low it doesn't matter, and the upside if Obama truly succeeds in delivering on his promise is amazing. And when the crap has really hit the fan, like with the Wright controversy, he has reacted in a way that has not only been different, but astonishing.

I'm willing to believe.

[rug]

63. Thoughtful response. You're right that people want to believe. I'm still dubious though.

[wileedog]

72. And I don't blame you

We've been screwed for so long, how can we believe?

I want some hope. I'm not some wide eyed kid, I'm 41 years old, but I want some hope. I want to see light at the end of a very bad tunnel we are in.

I just don't see any in Hillary. I see more of the same in Democrat clothing.

Your mileage may vary, and I respect that.

[AX10]

67. An interesting way to look at it.

[cali]

62. it's not a simple question; it's a piece of crap flamebait. duh.

[rug]

68. I bow to your expertise on posting piece of crap flamebait.

duh.

[wileedog]

81. I disagree, its a fair question

I say this as a big Obama supporter, but he is certainly pitching a major paradign shift in Washington, and that is a seriously Herculean task to say the least.

I don't see someone asking why a Freshman Senator can achieve that huge objective as a flame bait question. Indeed if you can't answer it there are issues.

Of course I would like to hear the converse answer as well. I'm curious why Hillary supporters think she can push through her Health Care plan that she failed so utterly to the first time now? What change will she bring, or are we in for more of Bill's Triangulation of the Center and continuation of the New World Order?

[GoesTo11]

70. Just his words n/t

[Pisces]

71. He has proven himself to be trustworthy by not abandoning his pastor.

[rug]

76. That's true although he's put quite a distence between them.

[GoldieAZ49]

78. I don't believe Obama

if his lips are moving he is lying.

[quakerboy]

84. a small list

topping the list, gut instinct. I don't think that he is where I am, politicaly. But my gut says I can trust him to be where he says he is. A part of that is just image. But a large part of that is that I have watched him be responsive. He listens, and while it may not change his stance, he seems to have room for understanding alternate pov. To me, that is key in any person who is going to be good in any way other than accidentaly.

Secondarily, I have not seen him lie. I have seen him judo situations to his own benefit. I have seen him say things that turned out to be wrong. The first is as it should be for a politician hoping to accomplish anything. framing and reframing to the benefit of your positions. The second happens to everyone I know. We make assumptions about what we know, and we our sources are not always correct. But I as yet have not seen any lies. Seeing as he is human, there likely are some. I still have questions about Rezco, but all I can find are RW manufacturings and Obama supporter assurances. What I have observed is a person who is willing to step up to mistakes, own them, and try to turn them to his future. That is more than I can say for basicly any other politician.

In short, He compromises more in political circumstances than I would like. But I have seen a person who I can take at his word, and trust to listen and try to understand. I could wish for someone more in tune with my personal political leanings, but there is no one like that running anymore. And there is, by a far shot, not a single other candidate I trust to try harder or be more able to better the nation and the world.

[rug]

87. I think that's an accurate desription of him. But often the same facts lead to different conclusions

I suppose only time will tell whether the compromising overtakes the leading and whether expedience will trump the listening.

[quakerboy]

90. It is my contention

that he has done a fair, sometimes good job of balancing these things thus far. It is my thought that the leadership expected of a president will likely bring out the leader that I see in him. He does not seem like one to fold under pressure, and he hasnt been around as long, so I am not concerned about the stockholm syndrome from him that I see from others.

I do see an ability to "make the best of" a situation, which in the senate leaves him looking less liberal than I would like. In the world of Reid, a junior senator does not have the ability to make the difference that they might once have had. As president I think he will be more free to explore doing the actual will of the people. I accept that that will infuriate me at times. The people are not ready for universal health care(although the undertows are right to get there soon, I think), and I personally am ready to get that done and move on to universal housing, progressive taxation, and going nuts with environmental reforms. But I see in Obama a person who I would be willing trust to run a business that I worked for. I also see a person who I trust to go in the right direction even when its not fast enough for me.

[undeterred]

86. He is believable.

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.. and I don't have too much doubt. There is a certain wholesomeness about him. He is extremely intelligent. I respect the choices he has made with his life. I like his demeanor.

He wasn't my first choice. I was skeptical and I didn't like all the hype. When he came to town I didn't watch, I just listened to the radio. I didn't hear substance. Then I researched for substance and I found it.

Then I began to see the whole picture. I began to like him more and more. The more I gave him a chance, and the more attention I paid to him, the more I believed. But until the race was narrowed down to the final 3, I wasn't paying any attention to him at all.

I've always thought of the selection of the nominee as an arranged marriage. Don't fall in love early because you won't get what you want. I loved Kucinich. Now, after watching and listening how he handles himself, he has won me over.

Now I love Obama.

[rug]

88. It sounds like you made a careful considered choice.

I applaud you, except for the love part.

[undeterred]

89. Republicans fall in line, Democrats fall in love.

Hey, I still love John Kerry and Al Gore. Maybe its a female thing. I'm over Bill Clinton though.

Edit: The funny thing is that he used to be my State Senator and I didn't know it. I was at the University of Chicago in one capacity or another from 1981-2000. I never heard of Barack Obama until I met his wife in front of the grocery store in Nov 1999- he was running for Congress and she asked me to sign the petition. I remember her telling me that he was a constitutional law professor at the U of C- I did not know he was my elected official. It was in the University neighborhood. I voted for him and he lost. Then I moved to Wisconsin.

I didn't follow politics very closely, but thats the only time I ever heard of him, so I figure he couldn't have been too controversial. When I asked the only law students I knew what they thought of him, they all said he was a very popular teacher and they'd love to see him go to Washington (although they wished he would join the faculty of the Law School and spend more time there too).