Something positive about Hillary Clinton

[Plaid Adder]

I went and looked up the origins of the Hillary/Bosnia/sniper fire thing. It pretty much is what I thought it was: she said something that she could well have believed was accurate at the time but which is not borne out by the historical record, and then it was instantly transformed into a millstone to hang around her neck by the pack of media hounds on her trail. It's a tactic that can be used against anyone, and it's disappointing to see people reacting to it here as if it reveals something deep and disturbing about her character. I still have to explain to people in my own family that Gore never claimed to have invented the Internet and that in fact, re the Swiftboat debacle, the truth is not "in the middle;" the truth is that Kerry was right and his attackers were making shit up. The fact that in this case Clinton actually said something not factually true doesn't validate this kind of 'reporting.' If Obama gets the nomination he too will be subjected to this, perhaps based on some statement he made in one of his books, perhaps based on some reminiscence offered during a campaign stop, perhaps based on absolutely nothing at all other than the boldness and the imaginations of the liars working for the other side. So from my point of view it doesn't make any sense to celebrate this happening to her. It'll be happening to your guy soon enough.

I've never supported Hillary Clinton's candidacy and I don't plan to start now. It's true that she represents a kind of politics that I have no use for and which I think have been bad for the Democratic Party; it's also true that she voted for the Iraq war. And frankly I am not that impressed with the "experience" claims. Being married to the president is not the same thing as holding the office. My partner's been a lawyer since 1997, but that doesn't mean that I'd make a good lawyer. In fact I would be a crappy lawyer because I'm disorganized and not detail-oriented, but anyway, my point is: I don't really want Hillary Clinton to be the next president of the United States, and I also don't think she ever will be. But I do get tired--very tired--of watching people heap abuse upon her.

As a way of restoring the balance, I decided that I would try to post about Hillary Clinton and say something positive about her. This is the third time I've tried. (Skinner: Will DU ever have a function that allows you to safe a draft before posting it and go back to it and finish it later? We new parents would think that was AWESOME. But I digress.) Well, I have racked my brain and I have this to say about Hillary Clinton: She's made my mother very happy.

My mother is in her sixties now. When she graduated from college in 1964, she got a job working at the telephone company, and she kept it after she married. When she got pregnant with my older brother, of course, she had to quit--there was at the time no such thing as maternity leave; you were lucky if they didn't fire you just for getting married--but she had planned to go back after my brother was a year old or so. But then my father got a job in a different state, and they had to move, and what with one thing and another it would be about 15 years before she had another job--this one part time, but rewarding, and well suited to her skills and strengths. Then my father's company sent him overseas, and of course she had to go with him, and she couldn't get a job there, and that wound up being the last time she worked for a salary outside the home.

I put it that way because she's certainly working. She's active on the board of her alma mater, she does a lot of work in official and unofficial capacities for a lot of nonprofits, she's very involved in education and the arts, and so on. Her days are scheduled as tightly as any CEO's, but it still doesn't add up to having a career. She would have liked to have one; but she was from that generation where it was possible but extremely difficult, and she wound up with a family instead. Women from her generation often found it impossible to have both.

My mother is the family swing voter. My brother would vote for a ham sandwich if it won the Republican nomination (and indeed, there are those who would say that he's already done so, twice). My father is a lifetime Republican but has recently gotten very unhappy with the Republican party; he voted for Kerry in 2004 but he did it most unwillingly and without ever wavering in his opinion that Kerry was, as he generally puts it, "a horse's ass." He is under no circumstances willing to vote for Clinton, but he would be pleased to have the opportunity to vote for Obama because he believes--rightly or wrongly--that Obama intends to govern for the entire country and not just for the 51% of the people who give him a controlling interest in it. My sister is fairly solidly Democratic, though her support for the Iraq war in the early years distressed me, and we still argue about the necessity of surveillance and the morality of 'rough interrogation.' She is unwilling to vote for Hillary Clinton, for reasons which though interesting are entirely frivolous and therefore will not be retailed here. My mother thinks of herself as a liberal, and at one time she must have been, but she voted for Reagan in either 1980 or 1984, and she hasn't been the same since.

Anyway. My mother loves it that Hillary Clinton is running. She would love it even more if Hillary Clinton were president. And she especially loves how uncomfortable the prospect of a Hillary Clinton presidency makes all the men she knows. When my father talks about how he can't stand Hillary, my mother starts talking about how he's never had a woman boss and he doesn't want one now and that's all that's about. I think she's oversimplifying; but on the other hand, it's true enough that there are a lot of men in this country who just can't imagine being 'under' a woman president. Similarly, there are a lot of women in my mother's situation--women who were close enough to the point where it all broke open that they _could_ have had careers, but who at the same time felt they had to choose marriage and motherhood instead. The very thing that is causing Hillary so much trouble in the media now--her attempt to create a presidential resume out of her eight year gig as a first lady--is something my mother understands perfectly. She too put her own career on hold for the sake of her husband's job; she too made her contacts and pursued her interests and attained her position through her husband. She too feels that she has a share in her husband's career after years of providing him with kinds of support which were indispensible, though her work was unpaid and often not explicitly authorized. And she too feels that Hillary Clinton is entitled to the job.

I don't agree; the palpable sense of entitlement has really bothered me since the beginning of her candidacy, and I think it may also be the source of a lot of the problems with her campaign. But for a lot of women out there, the idea that it's Hillary's "turn" now makes a lot more sense--because they waited their turns, with varying degrees of patience or rage or despair, for years, and now for them it's too late. And for my mother, and for all the women like her out there, I'm glad Hillary's running, and I'm glad she didn't quit early--cause I know from experience what a bummer THAT is.

There's also the fact that Hillary Clinton is doing a great job of preparing Obama for the general election. Because believe me, kids, as angry as her campaign may be making you all right now, this is NOTHING compared to what you're going to see coming out of the right wing spin machine once Obama's actually the nominee. This way, he gets to audition various strategies for responding to negative campaigning before he actually has to go up against McCain. I know Hillary Clinton's people aren't doing this as a public service to him; but nevertheless, if Obama does with the general election, it will partly be because of everything they learned from the primary experience.

So there it is. Something positive about Hillary Clinton. I challenge all of you to try to say something positive--and honest--about the candidate you don't support. It's a useful exercise, and it helps you remember that when this is all over, we all have to live with each other.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[OzarkDem]

1. Excellent, thoughtful post

Thanks very much for saying it. Your mom sounds like a great woman and shares the feelings of the thousands of women who support Hillary's candidacy.

[parasim]

2. Excellent post. Thanks.

It is really nice to see something more positive around here. and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[emilyg]

3. k/r

[AGirl]

4. Impressive. Thank you so much.

This post warms my heart.

[McCamy Taylor]

5. Most excellent post! DU is a better place for this!

:applause:

[BlooInBloo]

6. The last graf is why I have no problem with an extended contested primary.

[PATRICK]

7. Second this

and when you think about it, except for the people who have been uncritical and are now "sadly disillusioned", nothing that new or shocking has happened that is not offset by the great will and and effort Hillary has finally been tested with. The sole critique of going too far has been met with an equal over response by insecure and nervous people who hide that critique in anger and pleading she quit.

Most of it can be condensed into a paragraph, not these endless rants over each conceivable rumor or MSM hyped outrage. Far too much can be seen as the continued sucker status of the party leadership and membership in the poisonous MSM atmosphere. Losing a contest is not a defeat for American women but another positive step forward. Even "victories" are only another step forward. We only "arrive" when we hit the grave.

The primaries and elections need huge, comprehensive reforms. Women need more seats in government. The MSM needs an enema and public service regulation. The voters need to work together, learn and act. Parsing the individual failings that "caused" one to lose leaves out the people's desires and discernments altogether. Or soon, we won't have enough normal bravery to take any steps at all, and will stop walking altogether.

Whatever else you might say, Clinton has done her fire walk, singed feet and all, and will finish it, pain and all.

[babylonsister]

8. The voice of reason, even if I can share differences of opinion.

Thanks, Plaid Adder. The first thing I did after donating to DU when I first got here, I bought one of your books.
You still make sense.

[merh]

22. Plaid Adder has said why

why his/her mother will vote for Hillary. Plaid Adder has not supported Clinton and actually thinks that clinton's campaign has helped Obama prepare for the run in the GE. Plaid Adder makes some good points and I love to read PA's posts.

[bigbrother05]

9. k&r

Always a pleasure to see one of your OPs. Don't really have a problem with folks that honestly support HRC for the reasons your mother does. To come to that place from your life experiences and to express it without reservation is truly affirming of where America is and how we got here. That view is straight forward and is certainly as valid as any reason to support a candidate.

My support of her opponent is more nuanced, it's more of a summation of factors balanced against the competition after my 1st choice left the race. That makes it harder to express in simple phrases or sound bites, but runs the gamut from temperament to policies to just plain charisma. Know that that might seem less "committed" than some, but it came over time and would take too long to discuss point by point.

Have often joined in the fray here in our noisy neighborhood and certainly enjoy many of the exchanges here at DU that bring out valid points for both sides of this tremendous race. While some shots at BHO and HRC seem contrived, many valid issues discussed have certainly made them raise their game and will prepare them for the GE no matter who should prevail. Have tried to keep it civil (not always successfully) respecting that HRC supporters are coming from a similar place and will certainly back the eventual nominee.

[loyalsister]

10. perspective!!!

Thanks for posting what I have not been able to figure out how to pull out. That uproar felt wrong to me from the start. False memories are not necessarily lies. They are accidental memories. Memories of things that could ahave happened. That is what I think happened.

I feel like she is in the midst of a campaign where she is fighting great odds, and does not need partisans who are supposed to be in basic agreement with her cutting her down.

Hillary Clinton is trying to fight the good fight. I think it's possible that she is trying to fight it out til the end because she knows that a lot of women are counting on her to do just that. It seems to me that it would be a big relief to concede. With the amount of pressure she is under, she deserves some respect for sticking it out.
She and Obama are both in situations where many of the people who are watching them run are nearing the end of their lives. They are saying to them on the campaign trail "I never thought in my lifetime that I'd ever see a woman\black man get this close to the presidency."
She's getting a lot of pressure from all sides. I think we should give her some credit.

[readmoreoften]

11. I'd love to see more posts like this. Thank you!

I'll post something nice about Hillary: When I was on strike, she did write a letter on my unions behalf against one of the most powerful forces (if not the most powerful force) in New York City politics. She also cancelled speaking engagements for her campaign and did not cross our picket line.

I'll post something nice about Obama: I was impressed that a group of lawyers fighting for Gitmo detainees said they believe he'll make necessary changes. I also like that he refused to wear the flag pin.

[AX10]

12. Thanks!

[Taxmyth]

13. Personal and positive

and worth a read. Thanks.

[digidigido]

14. Let me get this straight

The positive thing you find about Hillary Clinton is the fact that her running
makes all the men your mother knows uncomfortable?
Wow, that says it all.

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. ...

:eyes:

[unapatriciated]

29. I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught that.

This marginalizes her life and career and boils it down to one thing....the only reason for a women to be in any position of authority is to stick it to the guys.

This is a "left" handed compliment at best and at worst it says women who support Clinton only do it because they feel they are owed it. I'm sure there are few women who feel that way, but not all.


Before you flame me, I voted for Edwards and will have no problem voting for Obama or Clinton in the GE.
I have grown very weary in my 55 years of life as a working single mother of four, of these types of "positive" comments regarding women.

[cornermouse]

15. CBS did the same thing just yesterday, I think

(repeated the Gore/internet story) I think but am not 100% certain that it was that Harry on the Early Show.

[intaglio]

16. Good to see another fine post about HRC

Like you I am not a supporter but I think that, for all her faults, she is a better candidate than most. What winds me up is the hero worship which a few of her supporters indulge. It is wearing and pointless and will not change the mind of one person.

And before anyone comes and blasts me, I find similar blind worship of Obama an insult to the intelligence of DU posters.

[Arkansas Granny]

17. Thanks for such a thoughtful, reasoned post. They are very rare around here lately.

Although I support Hillary, I believe that Obama is also a fine candidate and I will have no problem with supporting him should he be our eventual nominee.

[cornermouse]

18. quid pro quo?

Obama. He's sane. He appears to think things through even though he does occasionally come to a wrong conclusion. That said, everyone else on the planet makes mistakes too and at least with a democrat in the White House we have the possibility that the mistake will be recognized and the nation's direction changed. Over the past 7+ years we've seen just how bad it can be when we are led by someone who believes he is omniscient and who refuses to see or admit to making mistakes.

The 19th Amendment which gave women the right to vote was passed as recently as 1920, I believe. I can understand your mother's excitement that we actually have a woman running. It is a milestone. And I will say that "the sense of entitlement" that you perceive may not come from Hillary as much as it comes from DU and the sexism that I perceive. Obama made a statement a little while back that has bothered me a lot. He has said something to the effect that there will be no co-presidency. When I heard that I began to wonder whether he has any liberal qualities. Typically, a marriage is or should be a partnership in life's ventures. In making that statement, Obama is effectively shutting his wife out of a good portion of his life and he sounded exactly like Dumbya when he made a similar statement. In other words, the wife would appear to be extra baggage, attractive but unequal and still baggage. That offended me a lot.

[PinkTiger]

28. Yes, That one thing really bothered me a great deal.

He also said that Michelle would be doing the things she considers important, like raising the children, etc. I was incensed. Michelle is a bright, highly educated person and should not be relegated to nanny status.

[Ms. Toad]

32. Sad.

>>He also said that Michelle would be doing the things she considers important, like raising the children, etc. I was incensed. Michelle is a bright, highly educated person and should not be relegated to nanny status.<<

It is a very sad commentary on our commitment to our children when choosing to devote oneself to giving them the best start in the world, whether as a parent, nanny, or early childhood teacher is considered something a "bright, highly educated person" should not choose to do.

My mother cared for her 5 children full time (she had a bachelor's degree). My daughter has had a full time at home parent for the first five and the last five years of her childhood. I have three degrees. Her other mother has 4, and is actively working on her 5th. We consider the time my spouse and I spent with our daughter to be the highest and best use of our time.

[Darth_Kitten]

43. It is a worthy job, but why do only women seem to do it?

n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Present company excluded.

Men do want to stay home - it's a good gig. The patriarchy does not reward families who make that choice. A man's perceived value is the size of his paycheck. It takes a fair amount of self-confidence and family support to reject that paradigm.

[Darth_Kitten]

62. Too many guys still don't even want to share the responsibility.......

around this world, and that's sad.

Your attitude is great.....it's disheartening though that it's still (in this day and age) rare. :(

[Ms. Toad]

60. It should be an appropriate choice

for parents of either gender, just as it should be an appropriate choice for men to be nurses, preschool and elementary school teachers, or any other career choice that is traditionally filled by women.

[cornermouse]

37. I don't know about that.

To be fair to Michelle, according to elsewhere she's making $6,000 a month in a hospital in an executive position. That is the type of position that is usually filled by someone who is very sharp, very organized, very aggressive, dresses very well, and knows how to hold her pinkie finger when she's drinking tea with the doctors and other people with similar large incomes. Should they get the nomination and the White House, I think the plan (and it is a stupid plan) apparently is for her to do traditional First Lady duties. Unfortunately, I don't see that fitting her any better than it fit Hillary. I'm sure she loves her children but I don't see that being anything that will fit very well on a full time basis either. I think she's going to need more and should the Clinton's get the nomination and White House, I think we should allow Bill to find a way to contribute as well.

To some extent, this is a problem that the GOP has and which, due to timidness or some other strange reason, we have allowed to dictate to us what is acceptable behavior for the First Lady and what is not. It's about time we set the First Lady or First Gentleman free. It's time we allowed them to figure out what they really want to do.

[PinkTiger]

39. As a mother and a woman who has not been traditionally at home,

I find it somewhat terrible that we are afraid to say that parenting need not be our only vocations when we have small children. I would have been fit for the looney bin if that were all I had done when my daughter was little.

[Darth_Kitten]

44. LOL

n/t Right on.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. Moms are not inherently better suited to staying at home with the kids

I stay home with mine (work from home, actually) because I'm temperamentally better suited. It's all good.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Why is allowing her to do the things she considers important "relegating"?

Shouldn't she choose what she wants?

Besides, some of the things she has said suggest that being out in front of any diplomatic/policy efforts might, charitably, not be a good fit.

[KoKo]

53. I was bothered by the statements about choices of those who came before him..

His attacks on Boomers made me think he's for more Privatization...throwing young people into the "Trading Casino" that now passes for Wall St. Investment.

I'd like to think that it's just "political rhetoric with Obama but his background is so unusual I have to wonder if he can truly relate to what went on in the "Mainland" while he was living in Hawaii and Indonesia with his free spirited mother and then with what he calls his racist Grandma.

There's just alot about Obama that makes me worry he has problems with "females" in his life although Michelle is certainly a strong figure and their marriage seems very sound.

But, Plaid's points are interesting about her Mother's generation. Although, I wonder if Plaid's Mom didn't exercise her right to have "choices" over whether her Children and husband's future weren't important enough to her that she might not have wanted to pursue the career of a female CEO who must use nannies and other help to raise a family of three. It takes an enormous amount of "time management skills" and other sacrifices to keep a family and parner nutured. Many of those "Carreer First" partnerships end up in divorce if not in unhappy children and spouses.

What "Might Have Been" looks good in hidsight. But Plaid is a product of her Mom and she seems to have turned out very well, indeed. Although who's to say if her mother had been a Career Person with that first as priority she wouldn't have turned out just as whole as she seems to be in her post. :shrug:

CHOICES...one never knows but life is about COMPROMISE in so many instances.

[DangerDave921]

19. Question

On the sniper thing, how exactly could Hillary have believed it was true at the time, but that it wasn't borne out by the historical record? How could she have believed what she said happened when it didn't happen? Just curious what you learned in your research.

thanks

[guruoo]

30. I believe the OP was refering only to the part about the sniper fire,

the rest, I believe, can be reasonably attributed to a poor recollection of events.

In any case, I'm willing to allow Hillary the benefit of any reasonable doubt
same as I would with Obama, or any other fellow Democrat.

[Plaid Adder]

58. People misremember things all the time.

I know I've had experiences where, after telling a story a certain way for years, I run across a letter or something that actually documents what happened and discover that it happened differently from the way I remembered it. It'd be easy enough for someone in Hillary Clinton's position to psych herself into 'remembering' what she described. She probably feels like she's under fire every day of her @#$! life.

It's also possible she was deliberately making it up. I just don't see a reason to assume that right off the bat; and I do think you're going to see the same thing done to Obama at some point, even if they have to invent whatever 'lie' it is they pillory him for.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[jefferson_dem]

20. Wonderful post.

These words represent the best of DU. Thanks.

[bigtree]

23. I liked reading that

of course. That was well worth your effort.

[chyjo]

24. Her Plastic Surgery

was a success. It seems to have put a fake smile on her face permanently regardless of the the magnitude of the lies that she tells.

[rodeodance]

25. Thanks

[Harry Monroe]

26. I thank you for this positive attitude, Lord knows we need it around here.

But, having said that, I am still disturbed by what you refer to as the "Hillary/Bosnia/sniper fire thing" and your attempts to compare it to Gore's "claim" that he invented the Internet, and the Kerry Swiftboating debacle. The media record does show that Gore never actually claimed that he "invented the Internet"; this was something that was taken totally out of context. The record also shows that Kerry acted honorably in Vietnam and the Swiftboat group was out simply to smear him, which they did successfully. I do agree these are two egregious examples of media distortions and half-truths, which the Republican Party pounced on early and often to their benefit. Gore and Kerry never lied about these things and later had them refuted. They were victims of a right-wing smear machine aided and abetted by a cowering, compliant and complicit media.

Hillary's claim to have been under sniper fire in Bosnia, on the other hand, was a pure and simple baldface lie by her. The media record clearly shows that this never happened. Why did she choose to lie (and she repeated this lie on other occasions) when she had to have known there was footage of the actual event to refute her claim?? Or did she repeat the lie often enough in her mind that she actually came to believe it to be true?? Either way, to me it does indeed "reveal something deep and disturbing about her character" as you so aptly put it. I've had enough of baldface liars in the White House.

The only thing that even comes close to being "factually" true in regards to what Ms. Clinton said was that she was in Bosnia. It was an out and out lie she told, for reasons known only to her. The right wing smear machine and the cowering, compliant and complicit media had nothing to do with this one; this was a controversy of Hillary Clinton's own making.

This does not pass the test of a smear in comparison with the other two smears on Al Gore and John Kerry. It does not even come close.

[cornermouse]

36. Why do you get 15 different accounts and descriptions from

15 witnesses of the same crime? Same thing.

[Harry Monroe]

42. I'm not really sure what your point is

But if you are claiming that there are varying accounts of Clinton being under sniper fire, you'd be wrong. NO ONE has verified her story; as a matter of fact anyone and everyone who was there said there was NO sniper fire, and video of the event disproves her assertions. Why she lied about what happened at the event when everyone else there had no memory of sniper fire, is beyond me. Lying intentionally or unintentionally is to me equally disturbing. If it is intentional,she further proves that she is a craven and manipulative politician. Perhaps she was trying to prove she was just as tough and had just as big a set of cojones as McCain, the war hero and POW?? Sorry, I have had enough of some macho poser in the WH, lying these past 7 1/2 years, playing fighter pilot and lying about his credentials in the National Guard. If it was unintentional and she remembers it differently than what the facts say actually happen,then she needs some serious professional help and is not fit to be President of the US and Commander in Chief.

[PA Democrat]

27. Hillary Clinton is one of the best debaters out there. As an Obama supporter, I am half wistful

for a Clinton McCain debate because she would wipe the floor with him.

I honestly think that having her as an opponent has helped improve Obama as a candidate. She has made him work on his debating skills. I think that Obama has had the edge on speeches and Clinton on debates.

[guruoo]

31. I believe that down the road, Democrats will regret the day they threw the Clintons

under the bus.

[PA Democrat]

52. Sorry, but as a Democrat I am not "throwing the Clintons under the bus." I am supporting the

candidate that in my opinion will make the best president.

[guruoo]

64. Glad to hear it.

[AnnieBW]

33. Hillary is pounding the heck out of the glass ceiling

Like PA, I'm not a Hillary supporter, but my mother and aunt are. They (especially my aunt) were women that worked like hell to break through the glass ceiling in their workplaces. (My aunt actually sued her Federal Agency for sex discrimination back in the 1970's.) I look at it this way - Hillary Clinton is doing what she's always done, what many other women have done in the past. Pounded the hell out of that thick glass ceiling. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, et al did it, but they never got to see women vote. Other women ran for Congress, Senate, and state offices. We now have about 20 female Senators, and a lot of women governors. Hillary is beating the heck out of the glass ceiling, and it's showing some cracks. It doesn't look like it's going to crack for her, but she's made it easier for the next woman who runs for President to break through. I salute her for that.

And yes, I made my decision to vote for Obama by comparing him and HRC on the issues - not because of gender or race. Actually, Obama wasn't my first, second, or third choice. But I'm on board with him now.

[noel711]

34. I like her pant suits...

they suit her, and work with her 'style.'

[TriplePlay]

35. She has a vivid imagination

She could have a serious future as a fiction writer - honestly!

[JoFerret]

38. Something positive about Barack Obama

My aunt says he wears nice shoes.

(Cheers Plaid Adder!)

[PurityOfEssence]

40. Splendid; but since you're feeling such equanimity...

...can you please explain what "kind of politics" Senator Clinton represents that Senator Obama doesn't just as badly or worse? I characterize her as an appeasing, mealy-mouthed, ultra-moderate who spends the bulk of her time avoiding dangerous issues and positioning herself to be the most appealing to the most people as possible while consorting with seriously shady sorts and big business. While dragging the country to the right in a misguided effort to achieve consensus, she can be counted on to go along with most corporatist abuses. He's precisely the same and probably a bit worse, and what's galling is that he gets away with the populist charade as he shoves industrial strength religion down our throats.

He's so much like her in tactics and scruples that it's breathtaking. At least we know what we're getting with her, whereas he's a great big question mark, and the answers that have surfaced thus far are not reassuring. Why not cap credit cards at 30%?

Sure, he didn't vote for the IWR, but he didn't have to make the choice. The one piddly speech he gave at the time was made in a district where any other stance would have been politically stupid. He made endless hay out of her vote for the Iran "Sense of the Senate", but he couldn't be bothered to even show up for it himself, and didn't talk about it until Edwards brought it up.

I chalk all this hoopla up to the human being's craven craving for binary simplicity, and the resultant rattling rage that results from less-than-perfect heros. I seriously think that the level of rancor is due to people shouting down their opponents ever louder to thus drown out their own doubts and frustrations at their own champion's extreme failings.

What a depressing state of affairs.

I never thought I'd find a politician on the alleged left that could make me not dislike Hillary Clinton to distraction, but Obama pulls it off handily. I don't support her for the nomination, but I do feel somewhat protective of her as a human being for the vicious raging distortions she's had to endure at the hands of the sanctimonious.

But enough ire. Thanks for the pleasant post of perspective, and don't take this as a snotty demand for a justification of her being worse than him, just a bit of counterperspective.

[varelse]

41. I don't support either of them

"my" two picks dropped out early, as did my third and fourth runners-up. Yet, it's easy to say something positive and truthful about both of the two still in the race.

• Both are brilliant (overused and abused word, but in this case it truly does apply)
  
• Both are dedicated, life-long Democratic party loyalists (in MY OPINION)
  
• Both are healthy, energetic, hard-working, flexible, and practical - neither is likely to fail in health and leave us hanging in the middle of one or even (one would hope) two terms of office, nor are they likely to go "off the deep end" to one political extreme or another and get us into another governmental gridlock
  
• Each has a unique but equally laudable background of working to help make our society a better one (by this I mean working for women's rights, health, and children's welfare, justice and equal rights not only in office but outside of it)
  

I'd like to add that in spite of all the invective tossed around in GD:P, I hold each of these two candidates in much higher esteem than I did when this all started. Whenever their supporters have managed to choke back the urge to insult, attack, smear, and slander the opposing camp, they've been giving quite the education in all of the good things their own candidate has done, and all the good qualities possessed by said candidate.

So - I started out loathing Hillary and using words you'll NEVER see me post here to describe her, and wound up having respect for and even empathy with her. I believe she'd make a very fine, very tough leader of our nation, albeit a slightly too hawkish and centrist one for my personal liking.

Shortly after Obama's campaign started to really take off (and what a rocket ride that has been!) I felt certain that his ego and that of his supporters was rising into the stratosphere, and so was accordingly turned off by so much of the rhetoric I saw here. Since then, though, countless posts (hard to find amid all the negative dross, but nonetheless worth reading) have given me a new perspective on this candidate. I believe he really can bring us together on the issues important to a majority of Americans, if he continues to display the high level of political skill he (and his team) have shown to date.

So yeah, I could go on and on about my fears and dislikes about the platform of either one, but with all of those negatives so thoroughly (and sometimes ridiculously) covered by the partisans here, I just don't see the need...

Thank you, Plaid Adder, for extending this invitation to say something positive about these two candidates.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. Thanks Adder, as always, I appreciate your posts. Something I appreciate about HRC...

... I've been a stay-at-home dad since 2003. In this, I have a great deal in common with moms who want the best for their kids; the best healthcare, the best education, the best protection of the justice system. Hillary has been a strong advocate for kids for her entire professional career.

Something I admire about Obama is fairly obvious to anyone who watches him; he's skilled at bringing a coalition of people together to solve problems. I also appreciate his political courage. I'm not very keen on what Rev Wright said, nor of his politics, but I appreciate that he's not throwing him under the bus in a misguided attempt to mollify his critics.

His attributes suggest that he could be a good president. I simply think that his policy has significant room for improvement.

[MichiganVote]

46. Frankly Plaid Adder I believe your statements are pretty narrow.

While it may enrich your life to view your mother's excitement of a female candidate as positive, the rest of your comments hardly depict American woman of a certain age.

American women have not been sitting around waiting for the NOW candidate to show up. American women have supported far more progressive candidates that Obama, Clinton or Gore in decades past. The influx of women and their undeniable value in the workforce have resulted in family leave packages, improved health care of children, vehicle safety regulations and a whole host of improvements in American life. Women in leadership invariably sponsor revolutionary change. We older dames like that.

So another male candidate looks to take the office of the presidency. So what?

Sure, I'd like to see a female in the office of the presidency. Why not? Women can lead as effectively and as passionately as men. What they cannot do, what American political parties will not allow them to do is welcome women into positions of leadership. Whereas the scrutiny of the political offices of men is almost always after the fact, with women the reverse is true.

I can't say that Hillary Clinton is my ideal female candidate of choice. Its disappointing not to have more choices. I can't say that Obama is my ideal black male candidate of choice. Its disappointing not to have more choices in that regard also. Arrest me for honesty, however, I'll surely take the civility of MOST of the female Clinton supporters over the Obama supporters.

Is there really anyone who does not have a sense of entitlement in the US? If so, I surely can't find them. Black Americans do not feel a sense of entitlement to this office? Prove it. I think they do, I think that Hispanics will one day, and of all the groups the one who stands to be left behind forever are Native Americans. Think they deserve a shot at the highest office? Sure you do.

To narrowly peg American women, specifically older American women, as having this singular sense of entitlement for the office of the presidency certainly ignores the very real and very few female representatives all Americans have had. THAT is the real issue behind the zeal older American women can or do feel for Clinton.

Hillary Clinton is by no means without fault. Yet she is hardly the only candidate to indulge in fabrication at times. The only thing that bothers me in particular during this campaign season is the clear and unrelenting sexism that has been evident in the media. That is not just a sign of these times, it is a sign of old times.

That is sad. Expected, but sad.

[Skinner]

50. My impression of the sniper thing is the same as yours.

I haven't actually done any research on it, but I tend to think that when Senator Clinton told the Bosnia/sniper story she probably believed that it was true. In other words, she didn't lie or misspeak. She mis-remembered. If I am not mistaken, the part about someone telling her that the plane had to land in a particular way because of possible sniper fire was true. That was probably somewhat traumatic for her. Over time, telling and re-telling the story, she added minor embellishments to punch up the story a bit and eventually the line between the truth and the story started to blur. This is normal human behavior. My understanding is that we all do it to some degree. We don't realize we are doing it because, like Senator Clinton, we believe the stories we tell ourselves are true.

By the way, one of the features we have planned for DU3 is to give you the ability to save drafts of posts. So the answer to your question is yes.

[Dinger]

51. What's DU3?

Something new?

[Plaid Adder]

59. Awesome.

I will eagerly await the rolling-out of DU3, and the clamoring of people who miss DU2.

My partner has always told me that witness testimony is considered by lawyers to be highly unreliable, precisely because of the inadequacy of the human memory. Without careful preparation, even witnesses who are telling the truth as they know it are still at risk for coming off as non-credible in cross-examination, when the opposing counsel will try to lead them into contradictions about things people have trouble keeping straight, like dates and the sequencing of events. That's why lawyers themselves take notes of everything they do--so they'll have the record.

Maybe you have to be above a certain age to understand that about memory. When you've only been alive for, say, 25 years, it's easier to keep things straight.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[hfojvt]

54. sorta what I said from the beginning about the Bosnia story

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5225187

As far as saving a partially written piece. One of my tricks is to write an essay in Outlook Express and then transfer it to DU by cutting and pasting. Thus, if you start to write a post on DU that you find you cannot finish, you can cut and paste it into a file in your word processing program and then later paste it back into a DU post.

[NC_Nurse]

55. What a fabulous post! K&R

You have helped me to understand why so many women I know are so invested in Hillary. I REALLY
appreciate it. Thank you for another great post! :-)

I admit that there have been times when I wanted her to get out because I didn't like the tone of her campaign.
I have since changed my mind and I too feel that this is good for the Obama camp to practice what they'll
definitely be up against in the GE, exponentially so.

[mmm413]

56. I'm pushing 60 myself.

I think I would've remembered an incident in which my daughter was put in danger. Call me a crazy parent, but that's what parents do. Politicos who make a big deal about things that can be easily disproven seem to assume that their constitutents are lazy or just believe everything they hear. Or watch FOX "news." For those of us who stuck w/Bill and Hillary during the 90's, when he did everything he could to make it impossible for us to defend him (tho' we did), I think we deserve better than her run-of-the-mill, everything's-the-same campaign.

My favorite was Edwards. And when he dropped out, I almost did. I hadn't watched Hillary or Obama. Now I have because I have no choice. I think that Hillary and Bill have sunk to the level of the GOPhers in that they will both say whatever they think needs to be said to get elected. Unfortunately for them, this isn't the same country it was in 1992, 1996 or 2000. I think this country is tired of the cynicism we've had to put up with for the last eight years.

I didn't watch Obama's speech but I read it. And it truly gave this 59 year old grandmother hope for this country, which I haven't had since 1999-2000.

David Shuster was right when he said Chelsea was pimping for her mom and she was sent out to do it. Her parents' lives had been lived out in the tabloids and "respectable" news outlets for 8 years.

Anyway. I'll probably vote for Hillary or stay home in November. THERE IS NO WAY I'D VOTE FOR CRAZY, OLD MAN McCAIN. DO WE REALLY NEED ANOTHER PRESIDENT WHO'S ON THE VERGE OF ALZHEIMERS? I think not.

Hugs & Kisses, Everyone

[nichomachus]

57. Not buying it

she said something that she could well have believed was accurate at the time but which is not borne out by the historical record,

Being shot at isn't something you forget about easily. It's also not something you imagine easily.

Had she said it was raining and it wasn't -- no problem. Had she said it was in Tuzla and it was another city. Fine. Had she said she was there twice, but she was there once, not a problem.

But telling people you had to dodge bullets when you didn't is just so far outside the realm of "slipped my mind" that it's ludicrous to ask anyone to believe that it was anything but an invention.

Anyone out there who is a mother, what would you do to someone who was in a charge of a trip that you and your teenage daughter were on -- and they plunked you down in the middle of a firefight with bullets whizzing over your head? I guarantee you would have that person's balls nailed to the wall for endangering your child's life. That would be so etched in your mind that your memory of it would be fresh 20 years later.

Thankfully, I've never had to dodge sniper fire. I cannot imagine any circumstance -- no matter how tired I was -- that I would tell someone I had. I may screw up the details of things that actually happened, but thinking that you were under fire, when you clearly were not, is a real problem.

[D23MIURG23]

61. Good to read your words again.

Very thought provoking post.

[GoneOffShore]

63. A good post - a pretty positive thread.

I wish I could say something positive about Mrs Clinton. But I can't. That makes me sad.