Florida's primary had the 7th highest turnout of the 40+ states that have voted thus far

[jackson_dem]

1) NH 52.5%
2) Cali 41.7%
3) Ohio 40.5%
4) Vermont 39.2%
5) Mass 38.7%
6) Wisconsin 36.5%
7) Florida 33.8%

Contrast Florida to certain other states, including sham caucuses.

Iowa 16%
Michigan 20%
Alaska 5%
Colorado 5%
Idaho 2%
Kansas 2%
Illinois 33%
Minnesota 7%
North Dakota 6%
Nebraska 3%
Maine 5%
Texas (primary) 28%
Wyoming 2%

http://elections.gmu.edu/Voter_Turnout_2008_Primaries.htm

Florida, a major state we desperately need in the general doesn't count while sham caucuses that disenfranchise people, mostly in states we have no shot at winning when it matters, do count?

[lisa58]

1. It was one of only 4 states that had more repubs vote than dems

The other three:

utah - romney country
michigan - romeny country - dem primary that wasn't going to count
arizona - mccain country

[MadBadger]

6. There ya go.

[jackson_dem]

7. That isn't a good measure to use

The rethugs only had five states with a competitive primary. After McCain won SC and Florida it was basically over.

Besides, your argument is that while turnout was high it should not count, unlike low turnout states--including fraudulent caucuses--, because it didn't have sky high turnout. Maybe Illinois should also be disenfranchised then since it had lower turnout than Florida?

[MadBadger]

14. We still had higher turnout in all those first states, except Michigan

Even in Repuke filled SC we had more people show up.

[jackson_dem]

20. 4 states do not make a trend

[lisa58]

17. my argument is...

...that if it had been a legitimate primary where everyone got to campaign there would have been a higher turnout and a different result.

[jackson_dem]

22. What is your explanation for the 30+ states with lower turnout than Florida?

Such as states that Obama won with 2, 3, and 5% turnout?

[lisa58]

32. it is up to the state to decide whether to hold a primary or caucus

...every campaign knew which state would be a caucus state and which state would be a primary state and which state (Texas) would have both.

If the campaigns did not plan to take a caucus state seriously, you cannot blame the other candidates.

[flpoljunkie]

76. One study showed an additional 1.25 million folks would have voted here, if they'd know it counted.

[lisa58]

84. exactly why you can't count FL as it stands now

[roguevalley]

90. OP: Sham caucuses? Bite me.

RV, Alaskan (You wonder why I intensely dislike HC with shit like this. Apparently we aren't real Americans participating in democracy. Nice. Real American of you to say so.)

[GarbagemanLB]

2. Yep. Try changing the rules next primary season or take it up with those in the Florida legislature

who voted to move up the primary date and brought THIS ON THEMSELVES.

[anonymous171]

3. The last paragraph is why Hillary is losing.

[jackson_dem]

11. Texas and Washington exposed caucuses as a sham

Washington caucus: O 68, H 31
Washington primary: O 50, H 47

Texas caucus (same day as the primary): O 56, H 44
Texas primary: H 51, O 47

[revolve]

Or maybe Obama voters are more committed

[BzaDem]

27. So What? In the general election, are votes weighted for being more committed?

[anonymous171]

21. Early voting occured in Both elections.

Clinton would win b/c of name recognition in the primaries.
And of course, you are ignoring the Rush effect on the TX elections. The Texas two-step system showed that her initial win was just the result of an overlarge and uncommitted crossover vote.

[jackson_dem]

24. rethugs voted for Obama 53-46 in Texas. Good point. rethugs slightly helped Obama's numbers in Texas

;)

Polls showed Obama actually led in Texas early voting...

[anonymous171]

35. There would've been way less Hillary support by repugs had Rush not intervened.

[jackson_dem]

39. Why did Obama's numbers among indies in TX and OH drop by similar levels?

Since when do indies take orders from limbaugh?

[anonymous171]

47. You'd be surprised how many Right-leaning indies there are.

[jackson_dem]

51. Yes but that isn't the same thing. No "indie" would take orders from Rush

If they were that hardcore they would switch to being an official rethug.

You are right, though. Many indies are de facto rethugs. This is why we should factor this in at the convention when we have Obama losing Democratic votes by over a million and having his margin exist solely because of rethugs and "indies"...

[anonymous171]

56. I party agree.

However, Obama's indy votes are understandable because of his crossover appeal. Hillary, on the other hand, has absolutely no crossover appeal (except perhaps with indy/repug females :shrug:.)

[PseudoIntellect]

37. Good point about the early voting, however...

While Republican voters did barely help him, according to those numbers, they would have actually helped him a lot more without the right-wingers of Limbaugh. So your argument about that is not quite valid. Obama consistently wins the moderate GOP vote over Hillary. It wouldn't have been that close without right-wingers voting.

[jackson_dem]

41. Yeah, and he consistently won indies big--until Ohio and Texas. Was that due to Rush too?

Or did Obama just get beat across the board in those states? It is ironic that Obama is reliant on 75-21/70-30 rethug support...

[BzaDem]

29. Hahaha -- Hillary won Democrats and Independents. Nice try though.

[jackson_dem]

36. she won Dems 53-46 in TX and 56-44 in ohio. Obama won rethugs in Texas 53-46 and tied in Ohio

[PseudoIntellect]

28. Caucuses: whoever can rally best for support and enthusiasm wins. Both candidates

were given the opportunity. But Clinton didn't capitalize as much; her campaign ran a 15-state strategy.

SHAME ON YOU, Barack Obama, for rallying for support and enthusiasm in your stupid speeches, volunteers, and record donors!!!

[jackson_dem]

33. 1.9% turnout is a joke and undemocratic

[woolldog]

75. It's only undemocratic if they were prevented from attending.

Just because a lot of people aren't interested, doesn't make the process undemocratic.

There's nothing about the process that's undemocratic.

[roguevalley]

92. it really pisses me off that people like the OP disses caucuses WHICH

FOLLOWED THE FUCKING RULES to tout dipshits that didn't. Florida and Michigan could have followed the rules. Don't dump on caucus states like mine because they don't do what they should have.

[kwenu]

4. Nice fact to know but not particularly relevant to anything.

It's a delegate race and Florida can't be counted on to go Democratic regardless of who is the nominee.

[tekisui]

5. What is a "sham caucus"?

[Yael]

16. All caucusus are "sham caucuses".

Didn't you get the memo? Caucus states don't count.

Exit polls count.

Electoral college projections count.

Caucus states, not so much.

[NJSecularist]

65. Touche.

This guy's hypocrisy is stunning...

[revolve]

8. It is also one of only 4 so far that had more Republican vote than Democrats

The Others Being MICHIGAN, Arizona and Alabama

[jackson_dem]

15. And? They only had five competitive states

Iowa, New Hampshire, Michigan, South Carolina, and Florida. After McCain won the last two and three of the four states after Iowa it was over. Why would rethugs turnout for Virginia when it was over?

[MadBadger]

9. You and Hillary should create some sort of acting troop

[Yael]

10. I wonder if anything, like say, a property tax proposal, had anything to do with that?

[kaygore]

87. Good point

[HCE SuiGeneris]

12. Why did Hillary agree to disenfranchise them?

:shrug:

When Senator Clinton was campaigning in Iowa and New Hampshire, she made it clear that states like Michigan and Florida that wouldn’t produce any delegates, ‘don’t count for anything.’

[ORDem]

13. We've been over this again and again. The turnout was high because

of a state tax measure on the ballot not because of the Presidential race. Get over it, please!

:dem:

[jackson_dem]

18. Your point is?

Who cares. Turnout was high, folks expressed their will. Like we all used to believe before Obama showed up: count all of Florida's votes!

[goldcanyonaz]

19. Wow, 24% turned out in my state of Arizona.

[40ozDonkey]

23. Riling up Florida Dems over a lie for no gain will cause them to stay home in Nov.

Only Hillary supporters in Florida cared about this topic, and they didn't even care until February. Even worse for Hillary partisans, the truth is well documented.

Give it up.

[jackson_dem]

26. As if they are that stupid

They voted, their votes may not count because of Obama's delegates at the convention, and then we are dumb enough to believe all of them will show up in November? We need all of them. Florida will be razor thin, especially with Obama we will need every Dem we can get. Even if some of them sit it out we are toast, especially with a weak general election candidate like Obama.

[40ozDonkey]

59. No, the FL Hill-Dems may stay home, Florida Dems and Indys will not.

It's painfully obvious around here who buys the line of BS about disenfranchisement and who doesn't. Hillary and her Florida surrogates are the ones who manufactured this poutrage, not the rest of Florida Democrats.

Florida Democrats won't boycott in November, despite your wishes for a scorched earth policy.

Obama's the weaker candidate? Yeah, in Arkansas, maybe. Florida would NEVER turn blue for Hillary Clinton, she would never carry West or North Florida and sure as hell would never carry the I-4 corridor. In the same way that she can do no wrong in your eyes, she can do no right among the nutjob RW'ers here who would LOVE to come out and vote against a Clinton again.

[Forkboy]

25. You're helping to dig her grave with your comments.

[Lyric]

30. It sucks, but rules are rules.

I just don't see any fair way around it. It pisses me off that the Florida and Michigan Dem leadership decided to pick such an important year to thumb their noses at the rules, though. If I lived in either state, I'd send the bastards who made that decision packing as soon as the opportunity arises.

/Clinton supporter

[40ozDonkey]

73. Thank you for seeing it as it is.

The FL Dems didn't ask for our input regarding a January 29th primary. They gambled and lost, and the price was our votes.

It's our job going forward to make sure the price is also their jobs. They screwed us, laughed about it, and now they're deflecting.

[MadBadger]

31. Like Usual, you are being Intellectually dishonest

Those numbers are total between dems and repukes. Which means that in states after McCain basically won the nomination, they still count the republican primary and democratic primary. You need to find a source that has total number of registered democrats (or whatever rules that state had) and how many participated in the Democratic primary.

[jackson_dem]

34. How about producing those numbers?

There is a reason we never see that posted: turnout was still high in Florida.

There is a source: the vote totals. Go look them up, tally them by state and after you put down the kool aid let us know what the figures are.

[MadBadger]

38. No thanks, you are the one making the intellectually dishonest statement...you find the numbers.

[jackson_dem]

43. Still haven't gotten over being savaged by the cult for heresy?

:rofl:

[MadBadger]

49. Still havent gotten over the fact that your girl is getting her ass handed to her by...

an inexperienced 3 year senator?

[jackson_dem]

57. What they do behind closed doors is between them

:evilgrin:

[Blondbostonian]

46. What a bunch of horse shit

I live in South Florida. Turnout was high because of a real estate tax exemption on the ballot. IT's the reason the turnout was higher for Republicans than Democrats.

I work at a very large company with all college graduates. Not one peron feels disenfranchised over what happened. The only people I hear complaining? Hillary Clintion supporters. They are desperate at this point.

[jackson_dem]

52. Yeah, yeah. DUbamas also prefer a racist pastor over Hillary Clinton

They aren't exactly great representatives of the real world...

[Warren Stupidity]

64. you just walked over the rightwing talking point cliff.

welcome to the 'racist trolls for clinton brigade'.

[HockeyMom]

40. Homestead Amendment

People went to the polls to vote for the above. They always will on a wallet issue.

There were lines at the polls when I early voted in the middle of the day. Although in my area, I was the ONLY Democrat, in the line.

[jackson_dem]

42. Who cares why they did? They were in the voting booth and expressed their preference

[Blondbostonian]

50. Are you this desperate?

[jackson_dem]

53. I am a Democrat. Do you know why my party is called that?

[OzarkDem]

44. Obama doesn't want their votes to count, though

Apparently he has a strategy for winning the GE without Florida, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania....

[TSIAS]

45. Was Nevada a "sham caucus"?

:shrug:

[jackson_dem]

54. 9% turnout so yes

[dbonds]

48. There wasn't a Dem primary in Florida yet, just the vanity vote.

It has to be sanctioned to be a primary vote.

[jackson_dem]

55. So you must also believe Bush "won" Florida because the sanctioned vote had him ahead

Wow. It is amazing how much "change" Obama has brought to many progressives..

[dbonds]

60. wo there little fella

There were many forms of cheating going on in 2000. There is a HUGE ass difference. It is dishonest of you to compare an unsanctioned vanity vote, with a general election vote that was stolen.

[JayFredMuggs]

58. You DO realize that Hillary

was in favor of denying Florida seats at the Covention

Until she was losing in the popular vote all over the place.

Then, all of a sudden, Florida was important, even though there had not been an active campaign of candidates there.

You DO realize that, right?

[jackson_dem]

61. You realize Obama was once in favor of counting Florida until he lost it badly?

[madfloridian]

77. You need to prove that.

.

[40ozDonkey]

78. You realize Hillary wasn't in favor of counting FL until she won it badly?

Find all of Hillary's quotes clearly stating she wanted Florida counted, and that she disagreed with the punishment Florida was given.

Difficulty: From 2007.

Let's see if you're right!

[Warren Stupidity]

62. Yeah the Florida GOP fucked this up completely.

It really is too bad. But I think Dean has worked out a compromise acceptable to both candidates that will allow the Florida delegates to be seated. What isn't going to happen is a revote or an unfair allocation of delegates to one candidate or the other from a primary that was considered invalid. As far as caucuses go, I agree that they should go away and be replaced by primaries in all states. Given our screwed up haphazard each state does its own thing electoral processes, that is not going to happen any time soon, but certainly it is something that the DNC could work on for the next cycle.

[40ozDonkey]

67. The FL GOP fucked it up with Florida Democrat's permission.

Democrat Steve Geller brought up the date to be voted on.

Florida Democrats hated the idea so much, they made one guy vote against it.

115-1.

[Obamanaut]

69. Please remember to let the state dems have some of the blame.

There was only one 'nay' vote for passage of the bill that changed the date of the primary.

[Warren Stupidity]

70. OK fine and noted. The GOP controlled FLA legislature

screwed the whole thing up with the blessings of the Democrats.

[CreekDog]

63. how can you count a primary that didn't allow candidates to campaign

that people were told would not count?

how do you do this after the fact?

[JayFredMuggs]

79. You have to be Hillary to do that....! eom

[BumRushDaShow]

66. What about the "sham" of states like NY?

New York (primary) - 19.9% <--- :rofl:

So many wanted Clinton that they came out in droves! :rofl: And contrast with Illinois.

*yawn*

The Dems will NEVER win Florida at this point. Sadly, there is TOO MUCH work to be done to overhaul the corrupted politics there. There are states now in play (not Florida) and those are up for grabs. Hell, even here in PA, in Montgomery County which borders Philadelphia, the Democratic Party in the county happily announced this morning that for the first time in 100 years, the county has more registered Democrats than Republicans. This seems to be the theme nationwide. Time to take advantage.

[bunnies]

68. Oh look. My state is #1. No wonder people think we should be first.

Too bad the Clinton camp says we went out of turn. I guess saving her campaign isnt enough. Go Florida. :eyes:

[Hugabear]

71. To be fair, there was also a very important constitutional amendment on the ballot

There was a ballot issue having to do with property taxes, which is a HUGE issue here in Florida. I know a lot of people who went to vote on that issue only.

[rurallib]

72. Nothing I like more than having my state slammed by Hillary

and her minions.
If she gets the nomination please explain to me why I should get off my ass and work for her let alone vote for her when she has such contempt for us.
A proud Iowan.

[madfloridian]

74. They broke the rules. Clinton's demands are fast angering people.

This is just about her now.

I detest her.

[BlueIdaho]

80. On a daily basis

HRC can't decide which primaries and caucuses should and should not count. She stands on shifting sands and like a weathervane points wherever the political winds are blowing to her advantage. Be careful - she will drop MI and FL like a hot rock if she believes its to her political advantage. All these mental gymnastics trying to prove your argument really don't count to anyone - including HRC.

[FARAFIELD]

81. look at the totals

The repukes showed up in bigger numbers because Dems were told it wasnt going to count. PLUS we dont even know how many voted early either not knowing that it would count or figuring "it would work out"
We arent going to win florida, and they ripped us off in 2000 so fuck them.

[rzemanfl]

82. What a dumbass, bullshit discussion. The homestead tax

amendment was what brought people out to vote.

[stevenleser]

83. *plonk* I took a few people off ignore to see what they were saying. Mistake!

More xyz states dont matter crap, more trying to justify changing the rules in the middle of the game because your candidate is losing crap.

*MEGA-plonk!*

[struggle4progress]

85. The Democratic Party owes Florida's DINOs something:

maybe a nice gift-wrapped kick-in-the-ass

[kaygore]

86. FL and MI knew the rules but chose to break them

I fail to understand why this continues to be an issue. I am sorry that the voters in those states may not have their votes counted, but why should those who break the rules be rewarded?

But I do love the irony that had these states followed the rules their votes would have had a massive impact. Now, counting those votes will only throw the convention into a stalemate and further damage the Party's chances to win the White House this year.

Talk about spoilers! I wonder if this would such a big issue if the shoe were on the other foot...and that's what really irks me the most: Two sets of rules--one for Clinton and one for the rest of the world.

The only solution would have been a re-vote with both candidates having equal opportunity to present their case to the voters of those states; however, had that happened, Clinton and her people know that the vote would probably either been pretty evenly split or the vote would go for Obama.

So much better to co-opt the process, break the rules, and gain a better position.

I have the faith that the voters of FL and MI are adults who realize that they have been screwed by the state party officials and not by Howard Dean and that they will vote for the Democratic candidate in November and, maybe just maybe, find some way to hold those who chose to break the rules accountable.

[crankychatter]

88. we do not negotiate with terrorists

nobody campaigned, the vote wouldn't count, everyone agreed

insipid shit starters trash this poor board

race gender race gender race gender, stir stir stir

and it COULDN'T BE about corruption and business as usual vs hope and change... nah, of course not.

So what affiliations do you have, that make you want to keep the Democratic Party locked in conflict?

[Mooney]

89. Those damned rules!

Yes, caucuses count. No, Florida doesn't count. Them's the rules.

[crankychatter]

91. Accept this sham election or we'll trash your party

um, no?

[ecdab]

93. Hillary is the only thing standing in the way of her supporters votes being counted.

If this were really about counting the votes of Hillary supporters a 50-50 split should work well for them, since she got 50% of the contest that "didn't count". They want it to count now, OK, Obama's camp has said they'll go with the 50-50 split, which would give every Hillary supporter their vote. But that isn't enough, she wants more. Hillary is stopping the votes from being counted, every Hillary supporter that voted could have their vote counted - every single one - and the only thing that is stopping that from happening is Hillary.

[Skwmom]

94. PROPERTY OWNERS turned out because of a HOMESTEAD Amendment -

many others who did not own property, did not vote because they were told it WOULD NOT COUNT.

[PresidentObama]

95. Count Florida, or re-do it. I don't give a fuck, the results will be the same...Obama! n/t