Teams of Rivals

[H2O Man]

"Acclaimed historian Doris Kearns Goodwin illuminates Lincoln’s political genius in this highly original work, as the one-term congressman and prarie lawyer rises from obscurity to prevail over three gifted rivals of national reputation to become president.

"On May 18, 1860, William H. Seward, Salmon P. Chase, Edward Bates, and Abraham Lincoln waited in their hometowns for the results from the Republican National Convention in Chicago. When Lincoln emerged as the victor, his rivals were dismayed and angry.

"Throughout the turbulent 1850s, each had energetically sought the presidency as the conflict over slavery was leading inexorably to secession and civil war. That Lincoln succeeded, Goodwin demonstrates, was the result of a character that had been forged by experiences that raised him above his more privileged and accomplished rivals. He won because he possessed and extraordinary ability to put himself in the place of other men, to experience what they were feeling, to understand their motives and desires.

"It was this capacity that enabled Lincoln as president to bring his disgruntled opponents together, create the most unusual cabinet in history, and marshal their talents to task preserving the Union and winning the war.

"We view the long, horrifying struggle from the vantage of the White House as Lincoln copes with incompetent generals, hostile congressmen, and his raucous cabinet. He overcomes these obstacles by winning the respect of his former competitors, and in the case of Seward, finds a loyal friend to see him through."
--from the front flap of "Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln," by Doris Kearns Goodwin; Simon & Schuster; 2005.

Last night, my son and I watched an ESPN-Classic program on the greatest boxing matches in the history of the fight game. There are, of course, a wide range of opinions on what fights qualify for this type of list. People generally tend to view such questions in the context of their generation: my 20-year old son’s choices are going to differ from those of our 60- and 70-year old friends who will be seated in our living room on Saturday night for the HBO and Showtime cards.

In my opinion, it is impossible to pick the ten or twenty best fights or fighters. One can only identify their favorites. Such discussions often lead to one person saying of another’s top choice, "Well he isn’t any Willie Pep (or Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, etc)."

Likewise, when some of our friends on DU speak well of Barack Obama, and especially when they compare him to one of the great champions of democracy in the past, we hear others respond, "Well he isn’t any _______." And of course he is not: he is Barack Obama, and he is running for president in 2008.

I do not think it is possible to name the ten or twenty greatest books, either. There are a lot of books that are outstanding in the context of the era when they were on the best-seller’s list (or weren’t on it), and there are a few that are outstanding on a different level. One of those books that stands out as being of great value, in my opinion, is Doris Kearns Goodwin’s book on Lincoln’s presidency.

It’s the type of book that can help us understand that there are certain types of problems which are so serious, that we are not able to deal successfully with them if we allow ourselves, as a political party, to be divided. We are at that point now – and while the democratic primary has been a contest of individuals, we need to recognize that in order to confront the crises of our time, we will need to step up and become a "team of rivals." That will be true of all people of good will in Washington, DC, and on the state and local level.

[DerekJ]

1. H2OMAN.. What are you doing posting sensible, and rational stuff on the GDP?!!

:think:

[H2O Man]

7. There seems to be

more and more positive messages being posted on GD-P. I think that is to be expected, as the party's nominee is apparent, and as some of the more disruptive voices have moved on.

At the end of a boxing match, it is better to have both sides -- including the fighters, their cornermen, and the audience -- shake hands and say, "Heck of a fight." That's much better than if the fighting spills over after the final bell.

[rosesaylavee]

2. If we want to regain the WH in November

both camps will have to make peace at the convention. There is just no other way. Whether they join their campaigns and run on the same ticket or another candidate such as Gore is selected by those assembled and one or the other candidate is part of that ticket... our goal remains to take the WH and the country back for the Democratic Party.

Obvious stuff but needs to be said a few times a day here I think.

K & R

[H2O Man]

8. It needs to be said

more often than the divisive messages.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. Recommended.

In the case of Henry Seward (his friends and family called him Henry), he was quite bitter after his loss at the 1860 convention, but rose above it to become one of Lincoln's most trusted lieutenants and confidants as his Secretary of State (VP's were not really running mates back then - more like "also-rans" ;)).

I highly recommend to anyone who is in or near Auburn, NY (incidentally, my hometown) to visit the Seward House. It's a time-capsule from that era (the Seward family were notorious pack-rats and kept EVERYTHING) and a testament to Henry Seward's life of public service.

[H2O Man]

9. Right.

It is interesting to visit historic sites. Such settings can stimulate out thinking about the connections between yesterday and today.

[Cooley Hurd]

26. I make regular pilgrimages to Springwood & Val-Kill @ Hyde Park, NY...

Standing at the graves of Franklin & Eleanor Roosevelt has been... recharging for me - reminding me of the greatness that our nation has reared.

[H2O Man]

32. In the Lincoln book,

there is some information on Daniel Dickinson. I sit and listen to the same water falls that he did for many years. I sit where he sat when he listened. I like to think about that, as I sit in my isolated corner of the world.

[struck_dumb]

4. the problem is...

I cannot back Barry. He is not a good enough candidate. If he is the candidate, I will will be tempted to vote for McCain, who is probably the only Republican I could possibly even consider voting for. Not appreciating the GOP for actually choosing a less hawkish man to run, either.

[Cooley Hurd]

5. His name is Barack, and if you're even contemplating voting for McCain...

...then you choose to see our nation slide further into the morass.

Please reconsider, and welcome to DU.:hi:

[Me.]

18. I Credit You

With naming yourself appropriately.

[Binka]

28. Please Alert

Thank you we don't need these trouble makers and wasters of our bandwidth.

[H2O Man]

33. Right.

That's a good idea when one sees someone who appears to be trying to dusrupt. I also think it is good to simply ignore them.

Good to see you!

[redqueen]

25. Transparent.

[Binka]

29. See Post 28 Thank You

:hi:

[redqueen]

30. Oh yeah... got that part covered earlier.

:hi:

[H2O Man]

34. Very good.

Thanks.

[mmonk]

6. Well said.

This "team of rivals" must garner the remaining fight each faction has and turn it full throttle to address this crisis in a unified manner. We cannot wait, it indeed must be a fast transition.

[H2O Man]

10. Exactly.

It doesn't mean that people from the Clinton and Obama camps are goingto become best of friends. But it does mean that we need to put our smaller differences behind us, and focus on the larger issues that we have a common interest in.

[SIMPLYB1980]

13. Glad to see you have stopped selling that "Strange Fruit".

That said I will not vote for McCain in the GE.

[myrna minx]

11. K&R n/t

[H2O Man]

19. Thanks n/t

[Annces]

12. That would be great

if Obama had some of the depth of Lincoln.

I am not good with history, but browsing Lincoln recently, I read he was part of the Black Hawk Wars. I think that was in the Illinois territory too, where my relatives live.

[H2O Man]

20. Right.

I used to live in Illinois myself.

[Coexist]

14. interesting note - in an interview, Barack Obama was asked,

if he was stranded on an island, what two books would he bring with him?

His answer:

- the Bible
- Team of Rivals


Photo of him reading this book is here. Its a Library poster. I don't know how to post flickr photos.

[H2O Man]

21. Very good.

I remember hearing him say those would be the two books he would bring with him.

[Usrename]

15. Julio Cesar Chavez vs. Meldrick Taylor

Situational events often conspire to reveal things that are hidden when they exist in more mundane environments. We always seem to recognize when this happens. Sometimes what is revealed is so stark that it takes on an almost corny quality, it becomes a caricature.

[H2O Man]

22. Although I wanted Meldrick

to win, Richard Steele made the correct decision.

[Awsi Dooger]

27. I'm convinced our team is destined to win

Situational influence. I'm disappointed we chose an upstart representative. Poor instincts and prioritizing, IMO.

Regarding uniting rivals a la Lincoln, it wasn't exactly comforting when reports indicated Obama may have been aloof and dismissive when meeting with John and Elizabeth Edwards, a day or two after Edwards suspended his campaign. In contrast to Hillary, who reportedly was concerned and thorough in the same setting. That only tended to confirm my doubts about Obama.

When there's greatness asserted and assumed in a young newcomer I want something along those lines in the resume, whether it be PT-109 or Muhammad Ali's 100 amateur wins and dominating gold medal. Sorry, but I can't find that with Obama.

Of course, I'm a candidate to be mistaken and I have no trouble rooting to be wrong. I think that separates me from some of the Hillary backers, who seem to hope Obama fails so they can jump in and shout on election night. I bet against my favorite teams dozens of times per year, but that damn sure doesn't mean I root for the wager and not the allegiance.

Chavez vs. Taylor. Hmmm. Kind of fitting that fight is mentioned here. It's one of my concerns about '08, that any type of Obama defeat, or even a close win, will inspire the fraud crew to drown DU in cynical conspiracy-based mode for years and years.

[Usrename]

31. Your concerns are so much different than mine.

I worry about another leader being martyred before most of their productive contributions can be realized.

I can't overlook the fact that two of the folks you mention, Lincoln and JFK, the ones he is most often compared to, fall into that category. I only hope this new guy is more like the other guy you mention, and that he can continue to float like a butterfly. It's as if a lot more than just his survival is at stake. These are the very large changes that we seem to be preparing for, the tectonic shifts that can alter the arc of history. I think his success will have a lot more to do with the idea that the people will have chosen him, rather than the idea that he must have some special knowledge or abilities. (Of course, he wouldn't be chosen in this way if he didn't have some skills.)

What goes into making an epic fight, anyway? Is it really always about the skill and heart of the competitors, or does it have just as much to do with the situations that they find themselves facing, and how the whole confrontation is approached? I think he's accomplished enough, and he doesn't appear to be afraid to give it all he has, so it's difficult not to just sit back and wait and hope and root for the guy, just like everyone else.

[H2O Man]

35. I remember one year

at the Golden Gloves in Troy, NY. Cus D'Amato was there, in the locker room we were in. Thinking back, it must have been 1972, because he was there with Eugene "Cyclone" Hart. D'Amato was looking for prospects for the professionals. And I remember that Cus didn't even bother to go upstairs to watch the fights. He could tell everything he needed to know by how the fighters behaved in the dressing room, as they prepared to enter the arena.

[TheDoorbellRang]

16. I started reading "Team of Rivals" shortly after Obama's own Cooper Union speech

It's been interesting to note the parallels in history. For those who speak of Obama as an empty suit who happens to be good with words, here's some widely held public opinion on Lincoln's candidacy on the first page of "Team of Rivals:"

"The conduct of the republican party in this nomination is a remarkable indication of small intellect, growing smaller. They pass over...statesmen and able men, and they take up a fourth rate lecturer, who cannot speak good grammar."

--The New York Herald (May 19,1860), commenting on Abraham Lincoln's nomination for president at the Republican National Convention.

In that presidential race, Seward was considered the inevitable candidate, and Lincoln was the dark horse. Seward was so convinced that the candidacy was his, he travelled to Europe rather than spend any time securing his nomination. Lincoln spent the same time travelling the states impressing all with his speeches, and when the convention in Chicago met on May 20th of that year, he had spent a considerable amount of time doing the delegate math and insuring it favored him.

Seward was Lincoln's main rival that year, and one paragraph from Goodwin's book (p.255) that contrasted Seward to Lincoln could just as well have been an analysis of the contest we see now between Obama and Clinton. Posting the paragraph and leaving the names out is very telling, I think:

In his years of travel on the circuit through central Illinois, engaging people in taverns, on street corners, and in shops, _____ had developed a keen sense of what people felt, needed, and wanted. _____, too, had an instinctive feeling for people, but too many years in Washington had dulled those instincts.

[H2O Man]

23. What is interesting

is the more that those who backed other democrats complain about Obama, the more evident it becomes that we are in that phase of the cycle. Even the obvious disruptors and other disturbed individuals add to that.

[Me.]

17. My Hope With Obama

It has been said that the office of the presidency changed Lincoln, rather than the reverse. In recent years we have seen a good example of how things look and play out when the man tries to change the office. I hope the office changes Obama.

[H2O Man]

24. A person can't take

the idea of occupying that office for granted. We saw this with the current ocupant. He had assumed that it was a given, that because of his family name, that he had a genetic entitlement to the presidency. And that sense of entitlement always creates a problem, where the person assumes the presidency is all about them.