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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:37 PM
Original message
Obama AND Clinton would rather debate religion than science.
I am part of www.sciencedebate2008.com, a group dedicated to having a debate about scientific issues such as stem cell research, evolution, autism, global warming and many others. All of the candidates (Obama, Clinton and McCain) were invited to a science debate in Philadelphia on April 18th. ALL REFUSED. However, they did find time for more "important" debates. I just got this in my inbox:

I am sorry to send two emails in such short succession, but I thought you should know that after declining our invitation to debate science in Pennsylvania, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton yesterday agreed to attend "The Compassion Forum," a forum of "wide-ranging and probing discussions of policies related to moral issues." CNN will serve as the exclusive broadcaster of the "presidential-candidate forum on faith, values and other current issues" at Messiah College near Harrisburg, Pa., April 13 at 8 p.m. You can read more here.

Perhaps among the moral issues discussed should be whether they have a moral obligation to more fully engage on science issues, since the future viability of the planet may hang in the balance, for starters. Is there a larger moral imperative? How about the future economic health of the United States and the prosperity of its families? Science & engineering have driven half our economic growth since WWII, yet but 2010 if trends hold 90% of all scientists and engineers will live in Asia. Then there are the moral questions surrounding the health of our families with stem cell research, genomics, health insurance policy, and medical research. There's biodiversity loss and the health of the oceans and the morality of balancing destruction of species against human needs and expenses, there's population and development and clean energy research, there's food supply and GMO crops and educating children to compete in the new global economy and securing competitive jobs. Science issues are moral issues.

I would encourage you to write letters to the editor, emails to the campaigns, and blog postings pointing this out. And if you can, support our ongoing effort to turn this country around.


If you believe, as I do that it is much more important (not to mention constitutional) to debate issues of science rather than issues of "faith", please get involved. Science Debate 2008 is teaming with the PBS shows Nova and Now to push for a Presidential debate on science once the conventions are over.

www.sciencedebate2008.com

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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Evolution isn't up for debate.
Sorry, but creationism and the people who insist that should be shoved into every classroom is the problem.

I wonder what those kids in that Texas cult ranch were taught?

I would love to hear Old Man McSame debate new fangled science! LOL
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sadly, the American electorate doesn't care much about debating science.
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 04:45 PM by sparosnare
The candidates won't go there if there isn't an audience for it; so yes, we need to change that; however we are outnumbered. The Compassion Forum is what PA voters want to hear.

I'll check out the website. Thanks. :hi:
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. There would be an (huge) audience for whatever these candiates decide to do.
THEY could make the difference and put science back in the forefront. Unfortunately, they would rather pander.
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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. So they don't know if govt ought to get involved?
Hmmm...maybe I misunderstood.

Thanks for the website link. :hi:

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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:11 PM
Original message
dupe
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 05:13 PM by turtlensue
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:11 PM
Original message
dupe
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 05:13 PM by turtlensue
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. dupe
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 05:12 PM by turtlensue
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:11 PM
Original message
dupe
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 05:14 PM by turtlensue
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:11 PM
Original message
This is NOT encouraging
Stem cell funding is VERY important and I would like to think that SOMEBODY gave a fuck about saving people from suffering from god awful diseases. Yeah, no surprise that McLame wouldn't want to do this. But neither Clinton or Obama?
Pisses me off.:grr:
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. I get it!! I get it!!!
:D

I think this may be the first quintuple post I've ever seen. :thumbsup:
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is NOT encouraging
Stem cell funding is VERY important and I would like to think that SOMEBODY gave a fuck about saving people from suffering from god awful diseases. Yeah, no surprise that McLame wouldn't want to do this. But neither Clinton or Obama?
Pisses me off.:grr:
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Translation:
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW They won't take our internet group seriously!

This sounds just like Tavis Smiley crying about Barack not coming to kiss his ring.

(note, I R IRL scientist)
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yeah, science is teh stoopid
We need to hear more pandering, dammit!
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quantass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. Makes Sense though -- Try to understand it from their POV....
I LOVE science....i am an atheist because of science and personally find it odd that people can believe in a supernatural with no evidence. As for all 3 candidates not willing to attend the sciece debate...it all makes perfect sense...I mean think about it from their POV....most voters (about 95%) are religious goers...now if these candidates were to attend a science debate they will likely be grilled on issues that religious folk have problems with (e.g. Evolution and Stem cells)....I personally would LOVE to hear the 3 talk about Evolution and see how much they know about it since i know alot about it and find it baffling that the rest of the country can't understand it nor believe it despite it be factually accurate and explains where we came from. But thats not the point, the point is they dont want to lose voters, and their just being on the platform to discuss will alienate someone out there.

...blame the uneducated plubic for not wanting to be enlightened about the important things of our lives and not mythos but there you have it!

I know if i was a presidential candidate i for one would NEVER attend a science debate during the election time and remember i am a strong proponent of everytihng science!!!!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Agreed. (nt)
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. We've pandered for years, and you know what we've got?
A nation that wants to be pandered to.

Someone, somewhere has to show some moral and intellectual courage to ask the tough questions and accept the answers.

America is where it is right now because WE are accepting it.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. "people can believe in a supernatural with no evidence."
It wouldn't be supernatural if there was evidence.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hm. I'm skeptical of this. What level of debate/discussion are you seeking?
I frankly wouldn't care to hear McCain's scientific opinion on any subject because he is fully unqualified. I have no real confidence in the scientific prowess of the other two, either.

The problem we have had during the past 7+ years has not been one of science. George Bush and his entire administration are a bunch of crooked, self serving bastards who dare us to do anything about it. We were able to hold on and keep them out of ANWR, and we made some tiny steps on CAFE standards. But we lost big time in enforcement of environmental standards, stem research, global warming, etc etc etc. Bush's science-based policies have been written by brilliant minds who were fully, scientifically qualified to make rational decisions. Instead, they decided to carry the administration's water.
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NoodleBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. kick
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. The first email in the series
On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton's campaign has been noncommittal, while Barack Obama's campaign took a pass, Otto said. The problem is that there's already a debate planned for Philadelphia two days earlier - and yet another debate is being talked about for North Carolina later in the month. That doesn't leave a lot of logistical room for an event focusing on science on April 18.

"The Franklin Institute is continuing to work to make the event happen and remains hopeful they can get a commitment from Clinton, at which point Obama would have to at least re-evaluate," Otto said.

Meanwhile, on the GOP side, presumptive nominee John McCain's campaign has not responded to the Science Debate invitation, Otto said.

If the candidates pass up the Pennsylvania opening, Science Debate 2008 will shift its focus to Oregon, Otto said. Portland State University is being lined up as the proposed venue. Otto said the media partners in the effort would be "Nova," the venerable public-TV science program; and "Now," a more recent public-affairs series on PBS. A panel of scientists and engineers would be asking the questions, with "Now" host David Brancaccio serving as moderator, Otto said.

He said the "Nova"/"Now" pairing would be "a really good marriage between science and public policy."

Will the candidates demonstrate their commitment to these issues and accept? We argue below why they should.

The Sputniks of our time


It wasn't public outcry after Sputnik I and Sputnik II that moved the US into action. It was the media, led largely at first by the New York Times, that raised the alarm, and policymakers and the public responded, culminating four years later in JFK's historic speech focusing the nation on the common goal of putting a man on the moon before the end of the decade. If you haven't listened to it recently, we encourage you to, as it is applicable to today's situation in many ways, including how the media are different now.

While there is a broad range of science topics we want debated, today we do have a new Sputnik I and Sputnik II - science policy issues of such magnitude that they should be galvanizing the nation. They aren't as concrete as a Soviet satellite orbiting the earth, but they are far more ominous, and should justify our efforts all on their own.

Sputnik I: Ever since the huge influx on intellectual capital we enjoyed during WWII, science and engineering have been responsible for half the economic growth of the United States. But if current trends hold, by 2010, in just two short years, 90% of all scientists and engineers will live in Asia. This represents a huge shift in global economics, and is perhaps the single largest challenge to the ongoing strength of the US economy - yet it is being virtually ignored by the candidates. A debate would help focus the candidates and the nation on developing a hopeful plan to tackle this.

Sputnik II: Climate change is almost universally accepted among scientists, and in fact the data indicate that the situation is critical. Action taken in the next 1-2 presidential terms may determine the future viability of the planet. The candidates have plans dealing with this on their web sites, but generally they speak about reducing carbon emissions by 80% from 1990 levels by the year 2050 - so long after the next president's term as to be somewhat analogous to JFK having said "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this century is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth." A debate would help focus the candidates and the nation on assessing whether the candidates' plans are adequate, and what hopeful steps we can take as a nation to rebuild our economy around clean, low-carbon energy technologies like the ITER project, which congress inexplicably zeroed funding for in the last omnibus budget bill.

Such a national goal would reinvigorate our nation's entire science program, and fill our nation with hopeful work, high investment returns, and well-paying jobs toward a unifying moral goal: preserving planetary viability and American economic strength for this and future generations.

Senatorial Science Debates

We are also now considering senatorial science debates in a few key states, moving slowly towards our longer-range objective of elevating science in our national dialogue and injecting it into our electoral process. More on that as it develops. Those who preside over a college, university or science museum in a state where there is a competitive senate race and are interested in exploring this with us please reply to this email.

Working with the media

Sunday evening, Shawn Lawrence Otto spoke in Austin, Texas to a group of National Public Radio science reporters about "Science in an Election Year," and how they are at the forefront of the key policy issues facing America. The event was hosted by Earth & Sky and organized by Bari Scott. "This is a nation that used to gather its children in auditoriums to watch a moon shot," he said.

"Every boy I knew had a model rocket in his bedroom. That's how much we valued science." He explored why science has fallen in our national dialogue and what could be done to turn it around. The free press was created to hold government accountable, he argued, and limiting the press to government- or party-approved messages is the first step taken by dictators. Elected leaders are rarely able to lead beyond responding to public concerns, because without public concern there is generally not enough support to get anythin g passed. But how does the public know what to be concerned about? They rely on their organs of communication - the media. It is the media's job to report on the facts (versus a politically contrived "balance" of opinions) so that the public is aware of what the most concerning issues are - that is what news is. And in the case of science, there are objective facts, and there is a lot of news. He explained the mission and news of Science Debate 2008, talked about some of the top science stories of the season, and concluded by giving them a "holy charge" to hold candidates and the government accountable and ask hard questions on science and engineering policy issues, and especially those related to economic competitiveness, energy security & sustainability, and climate change, because "what could be a greater moral imperative than the ongoing viability of the planet?"

Finally, the travel we are doing is expensive. Would you be able to contribute? Is there a better cause? Thank you.
https://www.thedatabank.com/dpg/335/donate.asp?formid=donate

Onward,
The team at ScienceDebate2008.com
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. They're both running for Evangelist-in-Chief.
It's funny--we used to complain about Bush's endless godtalk, but it seems to be OK for our people to do it 24/7.
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-08-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Could have been a legitimate reason if
Edited on Tue Apr-08-08 09:15 PM by Life Long Dem
they knew ahead of time of this event(CNN) before the one your referring to.
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
19. No votes in Science, I suppose,
Whereas a willingness to declare "Goddidit!" gathers in the dollars every time.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
20. "Debating" autism?
This smells like "wouldn't know what Science was if it hit them in the head".

Science is not debatable. If it's debatable, it's "ethics in research", or "cultural bias in interpretive models", but it's not quite yet Science.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Actually, there are many debates within science...
science is a method of study, not a final answer: it may or may not provide final answers. There are scientific debates on the causes and nature of autism, for example (and on other medical issues, like the best way to treat various conditions); but the difference between scientific and non-scientific methods is that science seeks to test a hypothesis, and if the results don't confirm the hypothesis, then that hypothesis is rejected, even if it looked good to begin with. Non-scientific approaches are more likely to be based on the strength of the initial beliefs, and evidence that contradicts them is likely to be ignored or dismissed.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
21. Waitasec, "debating" evolution?
That debate was won over 100 years ago. Yeahbutno to the remaining crazies.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
23. Religion is a hobby for many more people than is science.
Hence the wankery.
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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. And affirmed by this distant echo from 1922...
"And it is my...conviction that the American people, taking one with another, constitute the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages, and that they grow more timorous, more sniveling, more poltroonish, and more ignominious every day...

The boobus Americanus is a bird that knows no closed season--and if he won't come down to Texas oil stock or one-night cancer cures or building lots in Swamphurst, he will always come down to Inspiration and Optimism..."--H.L. Mencken
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
24. Kicked
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
26. Well, that's encouraging.
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Symarip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
27. I wonder if...
The Flying Spaghetti Monster is at it again, using his noodly appendage to mess with the Presidential outcome.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. Bush's deputy director for technology has only a bachelors degree in science
http://www.ostp.gov/cs/about_ostp/richard_m_russell

basically, being a staffer on the hill was enough to get him this job.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
29. Damn sad. nt
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
30. disappointing
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