I'll put it more bluntly: I'm an Iraq veteran

[Recursion]

Not only am I an Iraq veteran, I was (quite to the contrary of my contract) tasked with being a mortuary affairs clerk.

My job was to tag'em and bag'em. If you died, we got you home. Period. We lost three guys getting one arm home. That's just how it is. If you don't get why that's worth it, fuck you.

Now, let me try to explicate more fully a post I made earlier in GDP.

There are some Democrats who voted for this war who want to be President. Lieberman could pull that off. Maybe. But even that is a stretch.

If you voted for this war, you better fucking be into it for the long haul. Guess what: those of us under E-7 in the Corps knew it was for the long haul. Did we have some sort of magical clairvoyance? Or did we just have the knowledge built from 230+ years of Marine and Navy doctrine, years that you and your temporizing friends shat upon?

I jumped out of a moving HMM-WV and pulled the lifeless remains of a British (not even American) soldier into the vehicle because for Christ's sake everyone who dies will make it home as long as there is breath in my body (that was my own personal pledge as a mortuary affairs clerk).

Don't talk to me about the risks Kerry, Edwards, or Clinton faced to their "careers" (and, no I don't think "Senator" is a real job, so spare me). I actually took risks. I actually got shot at because of their votes.

As I said in another thread and will repeat now:

No Democrat who voted for this war will ever be President.

I'm sorry for that fact, because I like Kerry, Edwards, and Clinton. It makes me sad they voted for it. But the facts are the facts. This war is still the deciding issue. You are with it or against it. And no one who claims to be against it but voted for it will ever win, period. Because frankly people aren't nearly as stupid as consultants think we are.

[Muttocracy]

1. Do you think this will also apply to the choice of VPs?

It seems like the same logic would follow.

And thank you for your service and your post.

[dansolo]

3. Absolutely

That's why there is no way that Biden, Dodd, Edwards, or Clinton would ever be selected as Obama's VP.

[Recursion]

4. VP has less stringent requirements

Again, people don't get it. Voters are not stupid. They know a VP's job in general is to bring one state over the line in the GE.

[Muttocracy]

11. The "bring a state/region" logic perplexes me because of recent choices.

Edwards didn't help Kerry in the Carolinas.

Cheney was from a state that would have gone for Bush anyway.

Gore was a counterintuitive choice for Clinton on that argument, but it worked.

Do people really reconsider their vote based on where the VP was born or lived or lives? Having split my life across four states I can't see why it would make much difference - is the VP going to bring home pork for his/her home state?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. In most cases it does not matter to the voters

the 1944 election people knew they were voting for Truman as much as FDR.

And if you look at McCain, as crazy as John might be, his VEEP is as critical as Truman was.

For the most part in my mind it is jockeying in side the party and payback for favors or other political capital we outsiders truly don't get.

[Muttocracy]

33. thanks for those thoughts. nt

[AZ Criminal JD]

61. Wheere are you getting that from?

FDR changed his vice presidents every term. How do you know people "knew they were voting for Truman as much as FDR"?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

102. Health issues, I think

FDR's health was obviously failing, even though the press took pains as to not say anything about it. But you could tell from photos. That being said, I disagree with the conclusion that people thought they were voting for Truman to take over. FDR's death was quite a shock, and even Truman said he felt like the moon and all the stars had fallen on him when he took over.

[Uncle Joe]

176. I believe state/region is a consideration with the exception of extraordinary circumstances..

Gore wasn't counterintuitive because at the time he was better nationally and globally known than Clinton. With Gore's qualifications and Clinton coming from a small southern state, this was a good choice. Ross Perot even temporarily dropped out of the race saying the Democratic Party had been revitalized almost immediately after Clinton picked Gore as his running mate. After much pressure from his supporters Perot reentered the race, but the damage to his credibility was done.

I honestly don't believe Bush picked Cheney as his running mate, it was a set up from the get go. Bush was the name, Cheney was the real power money man, I believe Cheney and his cohorts decided Bush coming from the large state of Texas with little aptitude and an incurious mind would be a perfect puppet. The scenario of Cheney searching the nation of approximately 300 million people over for the best Vice-Presidential candidate only to have Bush select Cheney was bogus to put it mildly. I believe this is one reason as to why Cheney announced upfront he would never run for President, he would become President in Shadow. This has a certain benefit in abusing power because Bush is pathologically disinterested or pliable, so Cheney can get away with anything.

[elocs]

70. Of course voters are stupid. Why on earth would so many of them willingly vote for Bush

and against their own self interests?

from: http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/10/22/are-american-voters-stupid.htm

It is not considered politically correct to point out that an awful lot of voters don’t have a clue what they are talking about. A recent poll from Middle Tennessee State University sheds some light on the subject. For example, when asked which candidate wants to roll back the tax cuts for people making over $200,000 a year, a quarter thought it was Bush and a quarter didn’t know. And it goes down hill from there. When asked which candidate supports specific positions on various issues, the results were no better than chance. While this poll was in Tennessee, I strongly suspect a similar poll in other states would get similar results. I find it dismaying that many people will vote for Bush because they want to tax the rich (which he opposes) or vote for Kerry because they want school vouchers for religious schools (which he opposes).

So yes, I believe that far too many voters are stupid, being not only uninformed, but attributing positions to the wrong candidate. Too many vote purely on emotion such as that McCain must be a good man based upon his being a POW paying no attention to his positions or past as a senator.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

103. Claude Pepper Senate campaign in 1948

Claude Pepper was defeated in his bid for the Senate from Florida because his opponent let it be known that Pepper's brother was a "homosapien" and his sister was a "practicing heterosexual". I don't think the voters have gotten much smarter since then.

[krkaufman]

139. Almost funny. n/t

[IronLionZion]

140. That was debunked

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Pepper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Smathers

[UndertheOcean]

2. Thank you for your service.

[Recursion]

5. You are completely welcome

And I mean that.

[mkultra]

6. i disagree with everything you say except yoru conclusion

i don't think that losing three lives to get one dead arm is worth it and fuck you too.


But i do agree that voting for the war makes you an automatic NO.

I was in the army but i never deployed. I never saw death first hand or dodged bullets. I do, however, believe with every fiber of my body that this war was an immoral act. I look down on people who could not tell at the time that it was bullshit and i make no apology for it.


Human life is the only true worth. Throwing it away is immoral.

[Recursion]

9. Thank you for your service

Let me suggest one thing:

Losing three lives to retrive "portions" (as we called them. Seriously. Don't think about it)

it not "throwing lives away".

Maybe it is. But I think a spirited act is its own reward. The choice, friend, is yours to make.

Peace be with you.

[mkultra]

17. and to you

[Silent3]

76. If the people taking the risks feel it's a "spirited act"...

...and worth the risk to themselves that they might die while retrieving bodily remains, I suppose that's their choice, and I do sort of understand the motivation.

But I have no sentimental feelings about dead bodies, or parts thereof. I don't understand the attitude most people in our culture have about this. All that is special and important about a person is what they are and what they do while they live. The only interest I have in what happens to my own body after I die is that the living get the most use they can get from anything left of me worth transplanting. You could toss the rest in a hefty bag and take it to the dump, or grind it up for dog food for all I care.

Even if I wouldn't put other lives at too great a risk for it, especially for just a body part when more of the body had already been retrieved, I do understand the value of sending the bodies of soldiers home. It's an important acknowledgment of life lost in this conflict, allowing us to clearly see the price we're paying. It's important for the families in having a sense of closure -- it must be much harder for people to move on with their lives when they can't let go of thoughts like wondering if someone has made a simply made a mistake, thinking that maybe their loved one might still be out there somewhere, simply missing rather than dead.

I do appreciate the service you do. All I'd say is that I'd prefer you put a higher value on your own lives, try to avoid the additional pain and suffering your own deaths would cause your friends and family, and think a bit about the good you could do by remaining alive for all the other still-living people in this world.

[leftynyc]

100. I suspect the sentimentality is for the living

not the dead. Also, they are considered brothers in arms and I suspect that you would go the distance for a member of your family.

Just the other day I read that 4 more victims of 9/11 were identified. You can be sure they were identifying only a very small part of a body but I've read over and over in the New York papers that the families always appreciate the effort for closure. It's very important to people that there is something to bury. I do, however, get your larger point about adding to the body count by risking your life for a body.

[JDPriestly]

142. In your situation, I would probably react the same way you do.

I'm not there, so it seems a little unreasonable. But I'm like you, if I think something is really important, I do it. I respect you for that. And retrieving the dead from the battlefield is something that is done and highly valued in civilized societies. The alternatives are horrible. You have to understand that you know what the alternatives are, but most people do not. That is why they do not understand why it can be worth three lives to retrieve portions of one deceased soldier.

[Lucky 13]

109. I can see it from both sides, but consider...

Risking living people to recover dead SEEMS counterintuitive and is definitely a hard concept to wrap my mind around. I can see it from both sides.

But when our soldiers' (our husbands, sons, brothers, fathers) bodies were burned, stomped, drug through the street, and strung up from overpasses, it became crystal clear to ME exactly why recovery is SO IMPORTANT. How would you feel if it was your son's body? Having the body to bury gives a sense of closure to the suffering family, a sense that he has finally "come home". You know how he died and don't have to wonder. You don't have to wonder if he was kidnapped and beheaded. Or if he isn't really dead at all but being tortured somewhere. Even the recovery of an arm is a gift to the dead's family, because at least, at the VERY least, they can bury their son whole.

[dixiegrrrrl]

157. I never understood the importance of burying a body until

my parent died and was cremated before the family was notified.
Believe me, I found it did make a difference.
Therefore, if my son were killed, I would want his body brought home.
I can hear the importance of that for some families.
It has nothing to do with wars being wrong..it has to do with families having closure.
That is one reason, my brothers and ex-husband, Viet Nam vets, tell me the wall in DC was so important to them.

I do understand.....

[AZBlue]

7. Thank you for your bravery and your service.

And thank you for your post!!

[Recursion]

10. AZBlue, I deserve no thanks

I hate to be a broken record, but any thanks you want to give to me, give to the VA, ok? I'm whole except for two fingers and my sanity :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Thanks for the job you did, and bringing them home

yes I get it...

BUT... you knew that was coming

Less than 2% of the population get it at the visceral level you get it.

THose are the 2% who have borne the brunt because there was no other way

If we add all vets from recent foreign wars you are talking 5% (I do fall in that category as a Navy wife, and my husband is also a Iraq War Vet) Why was I thinking Nam, oh yes another post, never mind me... need coffee

I am bringing this as a reminder that MOST Americans don't have a clue, nor do they want to, know what you went through

Many in the armed forces (or vets) may not vote for them... and lord knows the military community votes at a higher level... but for most americans that is not a standard they care for.

By the way I don't like EITHER Obama or Clinton... though that said, from that slight perspective, yes Obama is better.

I will also remind you that being a US Senator IS a real job with its risks and privileges but it is a real job, and in the US (for the moment) the Military is still subservient to the civilians it serves under. It has been fully betrayed by those civilians... but what I see in your dismissal of these public servants (yes they are), is the seed of something rather dangerous. We should hold them accountable... but not in contempt, or fully in contempt

Anyhoo... take care Marine and welcome home (and thanks as a former medic yes I fully get it, and no, not US Military before you say it)

[Recursion]

13. nabind, you are why I love DU

Take care, brother, and thanks so much for what you said.

[Bonobo]

19. "Less than 2% of the population get it at the visceral level you get it."

Isn't this the problem? The sole, only fucking problem?

As a DEMOCRACY, shouldn't war with another sovereign nation be an extension, a projection of the very will of the large majority of the people?

In WWII, everyone sacrificed and everyone was asked to sacrifice. It meant something to the civilians to give up things voluntarily for the cause. THE CAUSE. THERE HAS TO BE A CAUSE MORE THAN GETTING PARTS OR PIECES OR REMAINS.

No one sacrifices anything -indeed why would they? Most consider the mission ignoble or at least not worth it. If things were as they should be, war would be impossible for anything BUT a good cause. But we let them privatize it, advertise it and create a sel-fcycling system.

Why the fuck are soldiers going back for 4 and 5 terms? How much is loyalty to brother and sister soldiers? How much is financial issues? How much is no other life choices? How much is despair? How much is patriotism? How much is hatred?

[Recursion]

20. Bonobo, I've loved you for a while

You are 100% right.

[Bonobo]

85. Thank you for starting this thread. I am glad it got so much attention.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. How much is a lawful legal order?

This is something most civilians don't get

Remember, I served in somebody else's military... disobeying orders is never easy... and if you want to avoid getting shot in time of war, you'd better dot every I and cross every T

And yes, there is that sense of loyalty to those you serve with... again something very hard to explain to a civilian. The only folks outside the military who also get it, are police and to a point fire,

[Recursion]

26. I was lucky

It is quite literally never illegal to get human remains home.

My job was simple: they died, we tagged them and bagged them.

[JDPriestly]

144. Making sure that soldiers' remains are buried with respect is

vital to maintaining civilization. The tradition of military burial goes back a long, long way. It is an insult to the dead to fail to properly bury or otherwise respectfully dispose of the person's remains.

[TahitiNut]

12. As a former Army POG in Nam, I agree.

And you better bet I understand about getting 'em home. :patriot:

[Recursion]

15. TN, you know I'm with you on most things

And thanks, too, for your service :patriot:

[NoBushSpokenHere]

14. Thank you for doing the job you are doing

It must be horrible to do what you have been doing. Question: I have often questioned the body count because I suspect it could be much higher than we have been told... I guess if I am correct, you wouldn't be allowed to comment? Some say there is no way they could lie about that, but I can see where it would be easy to do so given the fact the press agreed not to film the bags coming back home.

What are your thoughts about the Iran vote? I am always amazed people have not been terribly upset by the amount of Democratic Senators who voted for it.

[Recursion]

16. NBSH: no, really, it's basically what they say

You have to remember these were the fuckwits who couldn't even keep a city from being flooded.

[boppers]

45. On lethality: thank our equipment, our field medics, air personnel, and Rammstein.

(No, not the band, the base.)

We've gotten insanely good at reducing lethality, in comparison the lost-in-a-jungle bullets-against-meat gore that we dealt with in Vietnam. Better body armor, vehicle armor, field medicine, time to reach emergency medical facilities.... the whole shebang.

However, this is where a person's instincts can lead a person awry.

Last number I heard from the VA is that they were expecting a patient increase, as of two months ago, of 100,000, as a direct result of the current wars.

Think about that for a second.

That's 104,000 Americans already killed or otherwise injured.

So far.

So, while it's great that we're no longer completely losing as many lives on the battlefield itself, we're shipping a whole heck of a lot of boys and girls home with permanently damaged bodies and minds.

...and nobody's talking about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Nobody will talk about it

the only way you can see these things is if you watch foreign news or go and watch specific movies

Hell, the reviewers got it all wrong regarding some of the troopers shown in the movie

[TheWraith]

18. I wish I could keep punching the recommend button.

What you've said is too true, and too heartbreaking to be ignored. Thank you.

[cliffordu]

21. Welcome home, and thanks, Brother.

:patriot:

[Recursion]

23. Oorah to you, Cliffodu, and welcome home yourself (nt)

[cliffordu]

39. Thanks, dmesg - K&R, by the way...

:kick:











:patriot:

[grantcart]

22. One day they will more or less stop fighting

and then the cleanup, the human cleanup continues. Refugees, wounds, pain, fucked up memories, exploding mines and ordinances, pollution, cancer from the pollution, revenge killings, criminal elements gaining power from the mass unemployement. It just goes on and on and on - even after they say the war is over. I just can't understand how war fever ever gets going. If you see what war does its just good for nothing.

I won't thank you for your service you did that for yourself but thanks for surviving it and giving your experience such voice

[Barack_America]

31. Yep. The Iraq war will never end for my generation...

It is our task to clean up this mess and take care of our veterans.

It's already caused me to change my career plans...

[Barack_America]

24. Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective.

ETA: And thanks most of all for your service.

:patriot:

[stillcool]

28. One part I don't understand...

is where you say if you voted for this war you better be in it for the long haul. What does that mean?

[Recursion]

32. Well, Stillcool, I mean quite literally this:

a majority of US Representatives and Senators sent me to go kill and die in Iraq.

So when I come back, they better understand I have killed and/or died.

[stillcool]

35. I understand...

thanks! Might be silly, but I want to show you a picture of my Dad. He's the one on the left. I never really knew him.

[Recursion]

36. Wow... no idea what to say to that

He looked like the kind of sailor we would beat up for the hell of it.

But also like the kind of sailor who would kick our ass for fucking with him.

So I guess I'll assume the median of the two, that I would have fucked with him and he with me :)

[stillcool]

44. He was a real character....

from what I understand. I could never in a million years comprehend what it is like to spend one day, let alone one year in a war zone. But I understand really well the part when the war comes home with people. Thank You.

[The Traveler]

29. You may be right

But whether or not that SHOULD be the case is a seperate argument. People do make mistakes, especially when a massive undertaking is conducted by the Executive branch to deceive them.

Still, I sure do understand why you feel that way and the above is not intended to talk you out of it. And there is this part of me that says, "If a guy who has been out of the defense field for 15 years can tell this is a crock of shit, why couldn't these illustrious Senators?" I always thought this was a foolish war. I was always opposed to it. While I can forgive an error of this magnitude, it does rock my confidence in the judgment of those Senators, and one of them (Edwards) was my first choice this year.

In conclusion, let me just say I'm glad you're alive, and glad you are here.

[ampad]

89. I don't think it is a seperate argument at all

What about the ones who saw through the deception and didn't vote for the war? IMO, no excuses none of them should grace the commander in chief doors, none of them. With that said it is about judgement now isn't it? While we had people in the streets protesting this war, people practically begging for our Senate to do the right thing, look at all the facts, quite a few of our Senators did what they thought were politically sound for themselves. They were not decieved they allowed themselves to be bullied. If most of DU could see through the lies of the Bush admin then why couldn't Kerry and Clinton and the rest of them who voted? I swear, if it were up to me the whole lot of them would be thrown out and a new bunch brought in. When you see what war does to a person this is the mentality you get. As far as I'm concerned it is the only mentality those who choose to vote for war should consider.

[whathappened]

162. this dam war

now correct me if i'm wrong , but did'nt the house vote for war only after everything esle was exstausted with the weapons search , bush is the 1 who shoved the inspectors out and went ahead with his own war , now these dam senators should have read his little pea brain better and saw what was coming next , but this is bushes war with alittle help from his freinds

[The Traveler]

169. We just slightly disagree

but I do so deeply feel what you are putting down. Judgment. Yep. Let's face it, voting to authorize force turned out to be a major mistake. No "attaboys" for anyone who did. But does that error wipe out the value of other contributions? So, for me, the evaluation process is more complex than your clear cut, simple approach allows.

Yet, in this case, the issue is so grave, the outcome so heinous, I cannot fault you for taking that approach.

[Shakespeare]

30. Welcome home, and thank you for sharing your perspective.

It's one that's sorely needed around here (didn't serve, but I'm an air force brat daughter of a veteran who retired after 23 years as Msgt.--I get it as well as I can, once removed).

What do you think about Webb as a possible VP choice?

[mmonk]

34. I get it.

Thanks for what you did. And yes, this war is a defining issue as is this neocon dream they thought up.

[FrenchieCat]

37. That's what I believe, that NO Democrat who voted for this war

will ever be President. That's why choosing who to support was not all that hard for me.

Delivered on 26 October 2002 at an anti-war rally

I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income – to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear – I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.

So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.

The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not – we will not – travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain. - Barack Obama

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech

[Blue_Roses]

38. As someone who had two parents who were in WWII

I thank you. My mother was an Army nurse in the South Pacific theater while my dad was in Europe. I still have their letters during that time and I can relate to everything you say. My eight-eight year-old mother would too. My dad is dead now--going on five years--but he and my mom managed to make it out of WWII alive--physically--but that's about it. Emotionally, they were never the same, as you too, can probably relate. My mother cries for you guys and says this war was senseless. She knows a political blow job even though her conservative roots would never allow her to say it as bluntly as I do.

Thank-you for your service. You are honored by many and please know that no matter how ugly things get during this political season, your service, nor the many who you "brought home" will die in vain. Time has it's own season and the roots of time go deep.:)
Take care.

[boppers]

48. The silent wounded can't easily be counted.

So far in my family's warriors, we have about 50/50 of permanently physically/mentally injured vs. those who died.

Sometimes I wonder who suffers more.

[Blue_Roses]

55. Wow...never thought about it like that...

the "silent wounded"...wow, thank-you ...seriously, thank-you:)

That sounds like a book title.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

40. Nailed it, dmesg.

And thank you for your service.

[GarbagemanLB]

41. Agreed. K&R

[MagickMuffin]

42. It must've been a hard job that you were assigned to considering the circumstances

I really don't think Kerry would have voted the way he did, if he would have known the Cabal working behind the scenes to Cherry Pick intelligence, to justify their WAR on Iraq.

I know he was against the invasion. He wanted the inspectors to finish their job. But the Cabal pulled the plug on the inspectors, the congressional leaders, the soldiers, and the American people.

The Cabal forced the vote before the '02 elections. There was a reason for that, and I know it's difficult for some of us to understand the complications of that vote. I wish Kerry would have considered the consequences of how the Cabal would undermine everyone's vote at the time, and voted NO.

Kerry understood sending troops into battle is never something he would willing do, just to keep his seat in the Senate. I'm glad he is still there, fighting to bring the troops home.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force--if necessary--to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Bush relied on that resolution in ordering the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Kerry also gave a January 23, 2003 speech to Georgetown University saying "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator; leading an oppressive regime he presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." Kerry did however warn the administration should exhaust its diplomatic avenues before launching war: "Mr. President, do not rush to war, take the time to build the coalition, because it's not winning the war that's hard, it's winning the peace that's hard."

After the invasion of Iraq, regarding the limited discovered evidence of any such weapons, Kerry strongly criticized Bush, contending that he had misled the country: "When the president of the United States looks at you and tells you something, there should be some trust."

Thank you for your Service:patriot:

[Ellipsis]

43. Thank you

Clear Vision

[boppers]

46. while dmesg; do :kick:; done;

A lot of folks also seem to forget that the "long haul" on this particular gig started on August 2nd, 1990. We've been risking our warriors' lives over there on a daily basis since then.

Dramatically blustering, and throwing a buttload of munitions, and risking more lives everyday doesn't seem to have ended it, though.

Imagine that.

[AtomicKitten]

47. Thank you for your service.

I vowed long ago to withhold my vote from anyone that voted yes on the IWR, and I am thrilled to finally be able to cash in that promise.

Cheers.

[Jed Dilligan]

49. 44th R, for the 44th President!

[bhikkhu]

50. The point you make is clear, and I'm right with you.

The war vote, the soul-killing torture and secret prison crap...nobody deserves office who has approved or allowed what has been done.

On the rest, I think I am with most people. I haven't been there and can't understand...about the best I could say is if you need anything, just ask. My thanks.

[Honeycombe8]

51. Excellent post. A different outlook of the same issues. (I agree w/you, too). Recommended. nt

[Kurovski]

53. K&R.

Thanks for this post.

[Swamp Rat]

54. Not only are we way smarter than consultants they think we are,

we are madder than HELL! :mad:

[sampsonblk]

56. Amen. K & R

I second what you said.

[ClayZ]

57. I am sorry this war happened to you.

I was pretty sure that after VietNam they would not be so stupid again.

I will now always pay attention!

Thank you for your service. I mean that from the bottom of my heart!


edit: K and R

[hisownpetard]

94. "I'm sorry this war happened to you." Awesome way of putting it.

[pansypoo53219]

58. ditto thanks for serving.

more than the chicken hawks do.
i am near the end of a WW1 book. and i get it, but it sure is a damned waste of some very good people for georgee.
and i do recommend Floyd Gibbon, 'and they said we wouldn't fight'. but more volunteers and many new immigrants to america. bit to much about that 'glory', but still a good book.

[tabasco]

59. I hope to God this country is tired of old men like McCain

sending young men to die in unnecessary wars.

[AZ Criminal JD]

60. What unit were you in?

I ask this because there have been several DU posters who have been proven to be liars claiming to have be in Iraq or have lost family members.

[JVS]

62. Thank you.

[democrank]

63. Thank you for your service, dmesg.

My anti-war, pro-troop activities started during the Vietnam War and haven`t changed since. That`s where I stand.

What the hell kind of war was this? The POS in charge and his five-deferment sidekick told us to "go shopping" because sacrifice was for the "volunteers" on that conveyor belt between home and Iraq. Some went two, three, four, five times. We looked the other way when caskets came home and charged this whole immoral mess to our great great grandchildren. Yellow ribbon magnets were the proof we supported our troops and my-way-or-the-highway helped us overlook not so secret torture planes.

I`ve seen a lot in my lifetime, but never did I think I`d see the day when Americans would willingly sit back en masse while their "leaders" committed one war crime after another.

[DrZeeLit]

64. Thank God for you! Thank you. Exactly. Period. Whew!

And thank you beyond measure for your service to our country and the world.

I appreciate your courage and your wisdom and your frankness.
I wish other people could be so clear.

The bumper sticker should be "It's the war, stupid".... or "It's the stupid war"... but that should be the focus no matter what.

I am pretty sick of pundits who have never been to war, popping off about war like they have any clue... any clue at all.

So... again... thank you from the bottom of my red-white-and-blue heart!!!

[girl gone mad]

65. Thank you.

As the daughter of a Vietnam veteran, whose wounds and ptsd tore our young family apart, I made it my mission in 2002 and 2003 to oppose the war. For months, I spent almost every day on the phone and in e-mail, working to pass along information to congress and the media. Truth was on our side. Public opinion was on our side. Yet, it felt like we were clinging to a deflated life raft in the middle of the ocean during a violent storm.

I have no doubt that when Senator Clinton chose to ignore facts and reason, she was hedging her bets. She calculated that standing up to the Administration was too big of a risk to her political ambitions. However, knowing that things could turn out badly, she and others went out of their way to avoid all inconvenient evidence. This is the same callous gamble pharmaceutical companies take when they release a potentially dangerous drug onto the market. They'd rather deal with the fallout later while feigning insufficient prior knowledge than risk immediate losses.

I count October 10, 2002 among the worst days of my life, right up there with the day my adoptive father passed away. I remember listening so intently, desperately hoping that common sense might prevail. Every "Aye" vote from a (D) felt like a stab in the heart. Hillary's speech just twisted the knife more. I spent that evening in tears and didn't sleep for days, then steeled myself for the pain that lay ahead.

I was angry when Senator Clinton said she had no regrets about her vote. Even though I'm an ordinary person with no power, little wealth and less influence, I often wonder what I could have done better. How could someone in her position have no regrets?

[BeyondGeography]

66. We tried "for it before you were against it" and it didn't work

and John Kerry was a war hero to boot. Four years later, the war is still a huge issue. We can't send another hamstrung candidate out there to debate McCain. Why more Democrats don't have the same clear sense of that which you spelled out is beyond me. Then again, you must remmeber we are very good at picking losers (7 of the last 10 elections, to be specific), and our self-assigned intellectual superiority prevents us from admitting it when we are wrong.

[shadowknows69]

67. ....

:thumbsup: :patriot:

[tekisui]

68. KNR!

[treestar]

69. So will McCain be President?

He's still all for it.

[Lyric]

71. I thank you for your service

And disagree with you. :hi:

[midnight]

72. It is my hope that a Democratic President will be elected.

Unfortunately everyone who is running for this position is well aware of all the horror and the reasons for why this war shouldn't of started in the first place, but everyone of them is still voting to fund it. It is a horrible situation. I want this stopped. I want the troops home. I want a Democratic President. The alternative to this is McCain who want's this war to go on for a long time.

[mikespace]

73. Do the People of Iraq

Believe this war is "Worth" It??? Does somebody have the poll numbers on that question?

[MADem]

74. So, what are you saying? The Republican will be President?

Obama didn't vote for the war, because he wasn't in the Senate. That's hardly dispositive--speeches notwithstanding, especially when he, himself, has said he does not know how he would have voted on a number of occasions.

But the telling point remains, he's voted to continue funding it, full steam ahead, despite expressions of concern.

They're all snug between that rock and that hard place on the D side. No matter what the rhetoric. And Obama isn't getting anyone out of there fast if he gets the job. He's advocating pre-surge levels (like Petraus is, gee, wow!) and he plans on sticking in the sandbox for at least sixteen months after he gets in the job...more, if "the generals on the ground" tell him that we "need" to stay.

I just don't have much hope on that score. I don't think anyone has a "Secret Plan to End The War." We've been down this bullshit road before.

It would be "nice," but I won't hold my breath.

[EnemyOfTheocracy]

88. yeah but she DID vote for the war.

and no amount of verbal gymnastics change that.

[MADem]

95. And he did say he might have so done, and no amount of "verbal gymnastics" changes that,

or the fact that they both have damn near IDENTICAL voting records.

You can't be against a war and continue to fund it up the ass. Or are there "verbal gymnastics" to get around that problem?

[EnemyOfTheocracy]

125. Obama voted for kyl-lieberman?

must have missed that one.

i am gonna tell you this frankly.
he has the ability to say in hypotheticals how he would because he was not yet a voting member of the senate.
SHE however DID cast a VOTE for the war.
"verbal gymnastics" she cannot do because a VOTE is a VOTE is a VOTE.
Obama can say whatever he wants about speculating on how he would have voted.
SHE cannot.
Blind support in the eyes of the obvious is quite unique in it's devotion.

[Shakespeare]

127. No, he did NOT. n/t

[Bread and Circus]

75. That's pretty brilliant

[carolinayellowdog]

77. As a former Edwards supporter, I concur

Having voted for JE in the 2004 primary, I was ready to do so again. But he withdrew before the Virginia primary this time, and I voted for Obama instead. All the while, though, I had been troubled by JE's role in promoting the Iraq invasion. Sure, he apologized and Hillary didn't, which meant that he had SOME credibility on the issue. But the big problem for me was that in 2002 I knew the invasion of Iraq was a huge disaster with no justification; all my friends knew it; almost everyone at DU knew it; millions of people around the world knew it and marched only to be ignored and derided. But somehow John Edwards couldn't see through the lying liars, and became one of their major enablers. Apologies are fine, but what about the next time something like this comes up?

So I felt more comfortable voting for Obama this time and not having to hold my nose about 2002-2003. And anticipated that the great majority of Edwards voters would feel the same, and that he and Elizabeth would endorse Obama. However, at DU I am aghast at the joining of forces by some of the most vocal former Edwards supporters with some of the most aggressive Clinton supporters, attacking Obama constantly. This makes me think that perhaps a certain moral blindness is required to think that any pro-Iraq War Senator has any credibility whatsoever as a Democratic candidate. A certain moral blindness of which I myself was guilty until Edwards's withdrawal left me with a dual choice. Clinton vs. Obama is a much more clearcut choice between Iraq war apologists and opponents, no matter how much anyone tries to muddy the waters.

[TBF]

136. Obama/Edwards has a ring to it --

and thanks to the OP for your service and joining DU. I'd like to hear from more vets about Iraq - they are the ones who really know what is going on over there.

[Catherina]

78. I'm so glad you're home

I wish I could recommend this over and over again.

No Democrat who voted for this war will ever be President.

[riskpeace]

79. Thanks for your service.

I appreciate it.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

80. I'm no vet. I'm just some guy. But HELL FUCKING YEAH!

[Joe Chi Minh]

81. Well, dmesg, I don't thank you for your service, nor do I thank our

lads and lassies in the UK for their service fighting an imperial war in distant lands, though if I knew you, I expect I'd feel gratitude to most of you for being among the best people we have in our respective countries. It's too reminiscent of the Little Englander nutjobs over here, who like to wrap themselves in the Union Jack, the sight of which to many of us, is now like red rag to a bull.

I believe many of you are in Iraq or Afghanistan reluctantly, having been sent their against your will, having thought the National Guard would be little more than a formality to get a free university education paid, others because it provides an income and security, etc. Dr Johnson once remarked that every man thinks the less of himself for not having been a soldier. I expect that was what motivated some of the best of the professional servicemen. I was into my sixties before I was wised up by your late marine general, General Smedley Butler, that war is a racket (implicitly, I'm sure he meant, unless a war of defence. So, expecting a modicum of understanding of the machinations of the warmongers among peole in their twenties is a tall order. It's true most of them would have a lot more common sense than I had at that age, but even so.

So, it drives me more crackers than usual to read Americans posters thanking their servcie-folk for their service. Thank them for their sacrifice and leave it at that. I'd prefer to hear them saying that, but who am I to change an ingrained national culture? Anyway, I think we all know what they mean - the sacrifice: being prepared to do or die, lose limbs, even their mind, without understanding the rights and wrongs of it all, but just having faith in their duties as servicemen and women. It would not, of course, have been in a moment of absent-mindedness that Christ chose to characterise his followers as soldiers. The front lines of wars are part of the sharpest end of the vast spiritual warfare we are all engaged in whether we like it or not, and all of us human beings are bound to remain partly in the dark, as we struggle to the right thing in a spirit of faith. There, I suppose I've just validated the use of the expression of gratitude, "Thank you for your service"!!!

Every best wish to you and your mates out there, and your families (from everyone here, I dare say). Limey, Marx.

[potisok]

82. Welcome home

Thank you. I understand. USMC 1970-1972

[Symarip]

83. I'm a veteran, as well.

Fortunately, I was an E6 and an instructor when this nonsense broke out. If there is a god, which I don't really believe there is, he or she was watching over me. Instead of deploying to Iraq, I had the distinct pleasure of training young men and women how to operate and maintain billion dollar weapon systems, only for the government to turn around after their training was complete and send them to Iraq. This, a job they were not trained for. Once every two or three months, I had students, kids, sometimes with tears in their eyes, tell me they wanted nothing to do with going over but they had no choice. Families were depending on their paycheck, or, they had nothing to return to if they were to get out or go on the run. During these few years, I also worked security detail at night as an auxiliary policemen; the team I was assigned to was shortly deployed to Iraq. One of the twenty year old kids I was in charge of before their deployment was shot. I have no idea if he survived.

I also have, and had, friends in other branches of the service. A friend of mine was in the Army and now has no right arm; he was right handed. A Marine friend of mine drank a fifth a whiskey every night for over a year after three tours in Iraq. Fortunately now, he's a civilian and is now doing much better. He confided in me he needed to drink excessively to acheive more than 2 hours of sleep a night. He also slept, and still sleeps, with a gun under his pillow out of fear. I know a Corpsman who has told me after killing an Iraqi, he often thinks of killing himself, but he refuses to seek treatment because he can't afford to be released from the military. He is still serving.

For me, when I was up for orders and re-enlistment, you can guess where my next destination was going to be (hint: a lot of beach with no ocean). I decided to get out and have been struggling ever since. I was doing fairly well as an E6 and I loved my job but I'm not going to be cannon fodder for our government's oil crusade. So since getting out, I've had 4 jobs. I've had to move cross country to DC to finally take on a government contract in something similar to the job I was performing in the service. Frankly, I don't do well in a non-military structured work environment so this is the best I can do. Though, I would have much rather stayed in San Diego.

I'm not a huge Obama fan. I'm no fan of any politician, really. But when I think that these motherfuckers signed off on this war... Fuck, it fills me with rage. And spare me the bullshit that they thought it would be for something else or it wasn't going to be this bad or they were lied to. If our government can't protect us then they need to fuck right off. I hold Clinton, Kerry, Edwards and anyone else who signed off on Bush's crusade directly responsible. If other people can't see that, then we've already lost. No politician that allowed this to happen, to allow good people to die for no reason, should be rewarded with the highest office in the land. Oh, and spare me the 'Obama would have voted for it, too' horseshit because you're just rationalizing your support of warmongers. I feel nothing but shame when I see Democrats attempting to skirt this issue with deflection, selective forgetfulness, and blatant lies. This fucked up world we live in is a direct result of your candidate(s) inability to lead.

Sorry, Mrs. Clinton (since you're the last one standing of that elite bunch), you lose my vote and ultimately, my respect. The blood of my friends are on your hands and I hope that you rot in hell for what you've done to my people.

dmesg, thanks for your post. I can't imagine what you've gone through. If you live in DC, I'll buy you a beer sometime.

Cheers.

[Kukesa]

158. Nice post. Welcome to DU. n/t

[Symarip]

167. Thank you (nt)

[TwilightGardener]

84. Thanks for your service, dmesg!

:patriot:

[Symarip]

86. Forgot to Rec'd

So decided to kick it again because this is the best post I've read in weeks.

[carolinayellowdog]

105. Welcome to DU

Yours is one of the best posts I've read in weeks.

[Symarip]

118. Thanks, man.

I appreciate it.

[Symarip]

87. Dupe

This page left intentionally blank

[mudesi]

90. Her IWR vote was why I was against her

Her tactics during this campaign are now why I'm disgusted with her.

[ShortnFiery]

91. That, and for me, HRC failing to vote for a "Ban on Cluster Munitions" sealed the deal.

:(

[ampad]

92. Thank you for your service

My DH is in the Navy and has been fortunate enough not to be sent to Iraq, yet. I cried and cried when I read your post. I have a good friend who's sister in law was in charge of body pickup detail. You wouldn't know it to look at her because she behaves as if it is another job. It scares me to see her behave as if she didn't just spend 20 months picking up her friends and sending them home. I know that deep down she is going through her own personal hell. It's stories like this that reaffirm my belief that I stood by the right candidate. I would never vote for anyone who supported this war and those who make excuses for them are enablers of this war as far as I am concern. There was too much information out there, too many pleas by people like us to look at the big picture. So many of these politicians were more concerned about themselves and could give a rats ass about the men and women they sent to die. No matter how many times they apologize they get no slack from me. As an anti-war protestor and a military wife they will never get any slack from me. They heard us all but decided not to listen. Now the time has come for them to answer for their votes because as we all see the war is not going well and Bush is on his way out. I don't want to reward those that voted for this war with a free trip to the oval office to do god knows what. As far as I am concerned their judgement is tainted and I don't trust them.

Thank you for your service. I'm an Air Force veteran. I never saw war, thank the gods. My family and I thank you again and again for your service.

[Butch350]

93. What Branch of Service...

were you in? What unit? When did you serve in Iraq? This is not a Hillary moment is it?

[AZ Criminal JD]

130. I asked this earlier. Nothing but silence.

[madrchsod]

96. military earmarks-levin and hillary are one- two in the senate...

[leftynyc]

97. Thank you for your service

You guys/gals are in my prayers every day.

[myrna minx]

98. Thank you for your service. n/t

[LynneSin]

99. But you can't give Obama a free pass on the war vote

Yes he was outspoken about the war but so were many of the senators that ultimately voted for the IWR. I stood only a few feet away from Joe Biden when a group of us were at a seminar hosted by him. This was a few weeks before the votes and all of us had questions about the information being fed to us. Joe came across as the "Damn if I do and Damn if I don't" with how this vote was going to turn out.

Obama spoke out against the war but he was not in DC in a position to vote 'yes' or 'no' on this issue. It's easy to say "Oh I wouldn't have voted for IWR" when you're sitting at home in the comfort of your home playing 'armchair quarterback'.

I am an Obama supported but it has nothing to do with the IWR vote. I think even Hillary is ready to bring the troops home but I have found other reasons why I no longer support her in the primaries (general election I'll vote Dem).

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

101. Thank you for your service

I know it has been said before, but I wanted to say it again. Your service and honoring of fellow soldiers is one that should make every politician in Washington bow to you.

I only wish that my anti-war activities in 2003 had kept us out of war. I could see in my mind's eye all those who would die-and I didn't want it to happen.

[Aviation Pro]

104. Semper Fi, bro....

....from one vet to another, I'm waiting for Jim Webb or his son.

[redqueen]

106. Thanks...

for your service... for sharing this... and for pulling that British soldier's body in with you.

You made me cry.

[BlooInBloo]

107. Note: Lieberman isn't a Democrat.

[kwenu]

108. Thank you for your honorable service and for reminding us that soldiers have a brain and a voice.

[parkeradison]

110. Only Republicans can

I think you're right. The only person who voted for the war and still be able to win, is a Republican, because it's part of their "platform" so to speak.

[Lucky 13]

111. Gut-wrenchingly wonderful post.

Thank you for your service and for your thoughts here.

America needs a fresh start. Only a candidate that was against the war from the start can bring that. Otherwise it all feels like justification or making up for your error in judgment.

I feel there are some, like Kerry and Edwards, that fully grasp the severity of their mistake in voting for the war. They have admitted it. They regret it. And I believe it haunts them - not just politically. If there wasn't a candidate in the running that didn't vote for the war, and all we had to choose from were candidates that voted for it - I would feel comfortable knowing the country was in either of these men's hands. I think they "get it" now.

But we do have a choice. And it's important to make the right one.

My biggest problem with Hillary is that it took SUCH A LONG TIME for her to ever admit this was an ERROR on her part. How many people died before she admitted that mistake? Then her admission that she didn't even read the intelligence before voting, sent me over the edge. If you are going to send our soldiers to war, I want YOU to PERSONALLY know all the facts behind it and be able to justify it. And saying "I believed President Bush" just doesn't cut it. You are just as culpable as he is. We MUST demand much much better than that for our guys. Period.

Peace and stay strong, bro.

[humbled_opinion]

113. But, But, But,,,,

Hasn't Obama in fact said that he will double the attack against Al-Qiada in Afghanistan? and what about when the tinder box of Pakistan blows up? I am not 100 percent convinced that any of the candidates "GET IT" We keep talking about ending the war in Iraq, when we should be talking about ending the war on Terror.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

115. Agree for the most part hovever

One cold political fact remains and how dumb and arrogant are people?Going back to 9/11, most voted for the war and continued to show support for the president in time of war as is expected or the president and the country would appear week.
So you have to ask yourself what does that all mean. You than have to look at each vote of support at verious points in the develoupment of it. You just can,t take all you know now back to the initial vote to support it.

Isn,t it true that voting present is just a way off keeping one,s hands washed of everything that is happening? And is that what you call being there?

Nobody wants to see the selective service draft reinacted but to stay ahead of it one must be involved in what is ging on in the present,that doesn.t mean voting present with no opinion ,view to it or vote in one direction or another. Threw the hell of it that.s the same as not being there at all I would guess. Indeed,such a stable position,being both there and not there.

Sorry to say but that just doesn,t cut the mustard.

[damonm]

128. One exception...

Voting "present" isn't an option in the Senate.

That all happened in Illinois. And Obama spoke out against the war when it was politically unpopular to do so.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

172. You ever hear the name bagdad Jim?

If you had you would know the difference between one who will speak out and run the risk and one who will do everything but take the risks. Everything in politics is about timing and we all keep track of that.Whats he gonna do when he has to answer the hard questions ,when he has to think outside of the box? Because that,s the high end part of the political game on that level.And you have no answers there.

It,s a long road as of yet to November.

[damonm]

175. Yes, and your point would be...?

Obama's whole campaign has been about thinking outside the box. And when "he has to answer the hard questions", he has, to date, given thoughtful answers that tell me he's not going to be another I-never-make-mistakes version of Chimpy.

[autorank]

112. K*R 100% agreement. Outstanding. Thanks

They all knew before the war that there reasons were lies. They can't apologize enough but one way
to start is to quit political life, every one of them.

There is no excuse, they knew.

http://electionfraudnews.com/MoneyParty/TheyKnew.htm

[dchill]

114. Thank you, dmesg, for your service.

:hi:

[ooglymoogly]

116. Agreed with everything in your post except the parenthetical (not even American)

and thanx for your heroic service.

[Left coast liberal]

117. Thank you for your service. We need to be reminded of the real costs...

[graywarrior]

119. Only way I can relate to you is observing the effect WWII had on my dad

who was a paratrooper and lost good buddies right in front of his eyes in Iwo Jima. Screaming nightmares for years because it was them or not him and that he couldn't do anything to help them. The war, for him, became about his buddies, even tho he lied and signed up at age 15 and was ready to serve.

I respect and admire anyone who has been there. It's an experience I never had and never will have, so I have no right to comment on it. I just wanted you to know I thank people like you every day for doing what you do.

[wowimthere]

120. You Clinton and Edwards supporters... please... really please... read it and use your good sense!

Kerry could not win because of that war vote. Edwards couldn't gain any traction because of that war vote. Clinton lost 11 states in a row and is on her way to losing the nomination to Obama who spoke against this war. The vote you cast for president now is a continuation of the mentality that got us into this war if you vote for Clinton or McCain. Ending that mentality rests in voting for a candidate that showed the courage to stand up against the war mongers who waged this war. Obama is the ONLY one who can end this cycle of war as a first resort.

Look at the heart of this post and tell me you don't care.

The other candidates and that includes Edwards and Clinton were dumb enough to vote for this war... and the most insulting part of it is that they knew men and women would die and they didn't even bother to read it before voting to authorize it.

Stop casting your votes for people who have the tenacity to vote for war when they wouldn't do what this soldier has done. Stop voting for candidates who use political calculations to show they are tough... Stop voting for candidates who will lie about their vote to save their own ass. These candidates are arrogant and use dumb reasoning to commit our men and women to war. They are often hoping you will buy their rationale but their rationales aren't worth a plug nickel to the Americans who fight for this country.

[Shine]

121. Powerful post. I applaud both your service and your integrity, dmesg

:applause: :patriot:

I can only imagine what you've been through. I thank you for your service and your honor.

[ej510]

122. This is precisely why my cousin is supporting Obama Clinton and McCain are rightfully.............

being held accountable for that vote.

[Political Heretic]

123. Thank you for your service!

[Debi]

124. Thank you, you're amazing

:hug: <--- wish I could give you this person to person. It is the least you deserve.

[damonm]

126. Me too, but different war....

or perhaps phase one of THIS war, depending on how you look at it. I was an Air Force puke, but I was front-line - FAC during Desert Storm. So I can relate a bit.

I remember seeing guys like you at work, and thinking "man, they GOTTA be crazy" until I realized what they were doing - had to tip the helmet after. So a big THANKS to you and others like you on behalf of the ones who can't say so.

:toast:

Now, as to the political substance of your post; I tend to agree with you that POTUS is not a post for someone who let the wool be pulled over their eyes with regard to this war, but I don't think I'd take it as far - I'd be inclined to forgive someone who has acknowledged that their vote was a mistake, such as John Edwards.
Those such as Kerry & Clinton, who have refused to so acknowledge that mistake (save when it was politically expedient), I am not so forgiving towards, and I agree with your venom towards them.

[quiet.american]

129. Your post illustrates why I don't get the fervent support for Clinton we see on this board. nt

[Redstone]

131. What you said. And why.

Redstone

[11 Bravo]

132. Welcome home, Marine.

And thanks.

[fight4my3sons]

133. Thank you for your service and your courage.

I can never imagine what you have been through. I am glad that you have made it home safely and were there to make sure that families got their loved ones remains back. I really can't even find the words to properly express what I want to say, but again thank you.

[mike_c]

134. right fucking on!

No democrat who supported this unbelievable lapse in judgment and leadership ever DESERVES to be president! :patriot:

[AZ Criminal JD]

135. Interesting how "dmesg" has vanished since posters started asking about his service.

We had another poster "deadlyaj" who claimed to be an Iraqi veteran and was exposed as a liar when he claimed his little brother had been killed in Iraq. Not before a couple hundred DUers thanked him for his service and expressed sympathy for his "loss."

[pengillian101]

147. Interesting indeed. N/T

[bhikkhu]

148. Sometimes people have things to do besides hanging online.

Occam's Razor - a person had to sleep, or go to work, or tend to family; versus "absence implies prefabricated online liar". The anonymity of the web can so easily be abused by randomly making terrible insults, without consequence.

[AZ Criminal JD]

151. You are apparently unaware of the fabricated threads on DU lately about "Iraqi military service."

[damonm]

156. And you are apparently unaware of the fact that there's a world outside the internet...

[AZ Criminal JD]

161. Remember the thread "The war finally came home to my family today"?

He was the guy who claimed to be a Army Captain and just found out his kid brother had just been killed in Iraq. Were you one of the hundreds who signed a sympathy post in that thread? A total fraud that was exposed. Here we have a thread that has been on the front page for a day and the author won't answer some very simple questions. Some of us don't believe everything on the internet.

[quakerboy]

165. Give context to your accusation

That poster was new. This op poster has been here a year, with over 6k posts. How long did it take to show that supposed fraud, and if you believe this one is one, why has no one bothered to show it before now?

Try again. Maybe you can find some other grounds to impugn the messenger so you can ignore the message.

[AZ Criminal JD]

170. So it is ok to lie as long as the message is correct?

[quakerboy]

171. Who lied in this thread?

Most likely the only lie here are your implications smearing the op.

[AZ Criminal JD]

177. Why has he never answered any questions?

[pengillian101]

163. "dmesg" is an old computer term,

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=news&q=dmesg&ie=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=iw

[Initech]

137. Good to see I'm not the only one who thinks that way!

[TygrBright]

138. I hope you are right, Marine.

I'm not going to thank you for doing your job, you're a Marine and it would be redundant. Getting the job done is what Marines do. (I know, my Dad was one.)

But thank you for making the choice to be a Marine. Thank you for deciding that we, your fellow-citizens, were worth putting yourself in harm's way for. And accept my deepest, most profound apologies that we, your fellow citizens, are doing such a piss-poor job of holding up our end of the deal. Some of us DO have our Congresscritters on speed dial and regularly ENQUIRE POLITELY what the hell they are doing to give the VA the necessary resources and what the hell they are doing to keep our agreement with every man and woman who enlists in our service. We do. Some of us.

Some of us give to Fisher Houses and go read to patients at VA Hospitals and send bushels of white cotton socks to Iraq.

I know it's not enough. It will never be enough until every Marine, Soldier, Sailor, and Airman in our service can automatically count on the best quality training, the best quality equipment to do the job, adequate compensation, support for their families while they are deployed, the best possible medical care at all times and ESPECIALLY if they are wounded in our service, and generous educational and health benefits when their active duty is complete.

It will never be enough until our shit-for-brains elected representatives factor in ALL of those costs FIRST in deciding whether it's worth it to go to war, and only AFTER that figure out how much cumshaw they can channel to their defense contractor cronies.

You're a Marine and I respect your estimate re: the long haul, as I know a tiny little bit about how Marines think.

But I still hope you are wrong about that. Some jobs can NOT be "finished." They can only be extended, to infinity, at terrible cost of lives and honor and morale.

Military force was ALWAYS the wrong tool for this job. Continuing to try and do this job with the wrong tool makes as much sense as trying to install roofing shingles with a circular saw blade. We can only make it worse.

The magnificent efforts of you and all of your comrades should command our respect and gratitude. You HAVE accomplished much. We know there are untold stories of many positive accomplishments as well as the magnificent screw-ups. Marines who save civilian lives as well as (in tragic necessity) take them. Units that build as well as units that destroy. Objectives achieved, every day.

But no amount foreign military personnel achieving those incremental objectives is EVER going to produce an Iraq where children can play safely in neighborhoods with other children, where the electricity works and men and women can go to productive jobs every day and raise families in security and have a government they can feel ownership of and be proud of.

So I hope that our new President who will have not voted for the colossal horkup that is the Iraq War will not see it the Marine way. I hope that our new President will see it as putting away the saw and getting together the materials to mend those shingles and start getting them onto that roof.

respectfully,
Bright

[JDPriestly]

141. dmesg -- Do you think that McCain could be elected in spite of the fact that he voted for the war?

[quakerboy]

164. McCain is a pub

War is their thing.

[Nostradammit]

143. Yes!!!

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::applause::applause::patriot::applause::applause::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[VotesForWomen]

145. the time to take a stand on IWR was 2002 and 2004. I voted Nader in 2004 because of IWR;

it is too late now; dems have already got their hands all over the start of this war, to try to disown it now just makes dems look fickle and weak. we need to find a way to get out fast, that's all. you people are kidding yourself if you think O's one speech as a state rep from a liberal illinois district absolves him of responsibility for involvement in this war you are truly deluding yourself. he has funded it every step of the way, and every one of his supporters knows full well that if he had been in the US senate in 2002 there's a very good liklihood that he would have voted yes on IWR.

[badgerpup]

146. Thank you, sir.

:kick:

[Kurovski]

149. Kick. (nt)

[lefty2000]

150. How Did This Happen?

Did you join up to fight in Iraq?

Or did you join up because you felt a patriotic duty to serve your country in a time of crisis?

If so, was that a mistake? And have you learned better now?

Could it be that the congressmen who voted for war were moved by a similar impulse? Could they have been influenced by your example and that of thousands of others? Could they have been influenced by the clamor for war in the press and in the streets by demonstrators who said they only wanted to support the troops.

Have they not learned better now?

We all made this war, either by our actions or our inaction.

The new guy has cleaner hands, but does that indicate better judgment, or could it merely be lack of opportunity to mess up? Mr. Obama's famous speech condemns only one war, but not war in general. He was right on that one. Will he be right on the next one?

Roll the dice and find out.

[Viracocha711]

152. Semper-Fi!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally a voice of reason and TRUTH!

[Willo]

153. Respecfully and humbly K&R n/t

[ecstatic]

154. thank you nt

[Bensthename]

155. How do you feel about Clark and also as a VP pick.

[Symarip]

159. Kick

For the evening crowd.

[SunDrop23]

160. Thank you for your service and an excellent post. (n/t)

[JackDragna]

166. I wish I could be so sure.

I think Hillary is going to do something ugly to secure the nomination. She and her husband are going to call in all their political markers. Not that the party isn't already full of enabling, right-leaning cowards.

It bothers me that there are others like you who are having to send the broken bodies of people who died for a lie back to their families.

[CitizenLeft]

168. thank you for this:

I jumped out of a moving HMM-WV and pulled the lifeless remains of a British (not even American) soldier into the vehicle because for Christ's sake everyone who dies will make it home as long as there is breath in my body (that was my own personal pledge as a mortuary affairs clerk).

Imagining myself the family member of someone who was killed in Iraq - bless you for your courage and dedication. You moved me more than you can imagine.

[DemVet]

173. I appreciate your service, but

you have no more insight into this issue than anyone else does.

[MyNameGoesHere]

174. hey good for you but can you explain something for me?

How did you get from being a Johnnie in 1994-98 and into the Bosnian conflict? Which one is correct you being a Johnnie or being in Bosnia? <You stated from another post DUgoogle it>

[AZ Criminal JD]

178. This whole post is a lie

DUers have been taken in. All sorts of posters have asked him questions and he has vanished.