Assume the wet dream of the Clinton supporters happens

[intaglio]

and Hillary persuades enough superdelegates to give her the nomination. What would be the effect of this brutal piece of manipulation?

I think that you can safely say that many uncommitted voters who are black will feel betrayed and will not vote or will vote against Hillary

Young people who have become enthused by politics for the first time will feel again that they cannot change the system and will stay away from the GE

Many of the Obama operatives on the ground will not feel able to work for Hillary - she will have to set up new organisations

Dean will be out, and DLC opperatives will be in

The networks will rehash all of the old lies and innuendos about the Clintons, not that they will suddenly become true but the mud will stick

Hillary will not be able to play the "experience" card - McClame has more experience

The GOP will talk about with the horrible political mismanagement of the Clinton campaign and the lack of foresight

They will point out the financial mismangement of the Clinton campaign asking if she can be trusted with "your tax dollars"

They will point out the "racially charged" nature of her campaign

They will ask how, even if you think healthcare is worth it, you could trust Hillary when she failed last time around

They will point out her "lies" about Bosnia, Northern Ireland and "Helpless patients who were really insured"

They will play up her Indian (sub-continent) ties and ask "...how safe will your job be?"

They will point out that Bill and her chief "guru" are in favour of a free trade agreement with Columbia


Given all of this and given the non-existant ability of Hillary's campaign to respond quickly and effectively

How can you think Hillary would ever be elected?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Didn't you get the message?

None of those people count.

[galaxy21]

2. can any democrat win without black support?

[Growler]

7. I hope not!

> can any democrat win without black support?

I hope we never have to find out.

[PBS Poll-435]

8. Why would

she not have any support from the Black community?

[galaxy21]

11. Bill's antics in South Carolina for one thing

Also, at this point the only way she can win is if it looks like she stole it from Obama.

A black man getting screwed out of the nomination by a white elite because they don't think an african american is electable?

That pisses me off and I'm not even black. How will AAs feel? The party they've been loyal to for decades turning around and saying 'hey, we love your support but we would never actually nominate one of you! Don't be mad, though'

[PBS Poll-435]

12. I would not try to predict the future...

[Liberal Gramma]

29. Depends on how she got the nomination

If he is ahead in delegates, votes, and states won, and she gets it anyway, I think a lot of black voters would see it as the same thing they've been battling all their lives: lost another job to a white candidate. I think they'd be justified in feeling resentful. If, on the other hand, she somehow manages to come out ahead in delegates and votes, she would have some, but not all, of the black vote.

[roseBudd]

36. Lets see, AAs have been voting for every white face with a D for decades & white woman screws O over

What do you think?

[PBS Poll-435]

40. Maybe it is too soon to make predictions over a divide that may...

to your dismay, not materialize.

[Texas Hill Country]

33. actually, yeah, its harder but can be done mathematically... wouldnt wanna try it, but...

it could be done.



The bigger problem is Obama's lack of support in the "white" demographic. that's 75% of all voters...

[Lucinda]

3. OMG what a crock.

:rofl:

A large percentage of the country loves her.
If the supers give her the win, she will have won.
REAL Dems will support her.

It's how it works.

[Hawkeye-X]

4. Then how come Hillary has only won 13 states?

if REAL Dems love her?

[intaglio]

9. I think wlucinda is joking chek the Gif at the bottom n/t

[SoCalDem]

24. check my sig too.. Hillary's latest endorsement

[Lucinda]

48. Nope. I never joke about Dems not voting Dem.

The siggy pic reflects other things. :hi:

[rodeodance]

21. yeah--they are the NOT the so-called "progressives"

[paulk]

27. what a stupid post.

You do know that there are more people living in some states than others?

Number of states "won" isn't a particularly significant stat.

[Lucinda]

43. REAL Dems will vote for her if she's the nom. What are you going to do?

[Zachstar]

14. That REAL Dems crap yall push is costing Clinton massive amounts of support.

Support that the republicans are happy to include in McCains campaign.

[PBS Poll-435]

22. This is a party primary -

I don't want Independents & Republicans influencing it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

37. States have been doing their primaries a certain way for decades now

Some states have open ones and some don't. That's the way it is. All of a sudden it's a "problem" because a certain campaign who thus far has shown they can't strategize their way out of a paper bag isn't benefitting from it. Boo hoo.

[rodeodance]

26. yup--those "Dems for the Day" for Obama!

[Lucinda]

41. So...you'll vote for McCain is she's the nominee then?

[Zachstar]

49. Um no. Where did you get that idea?

In case you have not noticed I am a democrat.

[Spider Jerusalem]

16. A larger percentage of the country can't stand her.

37% favourability ratings at present that top out at around 45%? She's not 'loved', sorry.

[Lucinda]

46. Soo...who is voting for her and why can't Obama knock her out?

[Spider Jerusalem]

50. What percentage of the electorate votes in primaries?

And what percentage of those vote Democratic? Her favourability makes her a loser in the GE. Because she is hated be the right wing. HATED. And they will be energised to vote against her more than they would to vote for McCain.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. But independents, crossover Republicans, and "FAKE" Dems (whatever those are) won't.

And she'll lose.

[ClassWarrior]

35. Bingo.

NGU.

[Lucinda]

45. Nah, She'll win. Big.

[ClassWarrior]

55. Sure, with fewer than half the Dems and precious few others...

:rofl:

NGU.

[Lucinda]

57. That's such a crock.

:rofl:

Unless something like Wright or Rezko tank Obama, either of them can win.

[ClassWarrior]

58. But if only "real Dems" are voting for Tonya, then only Obama...

...can win the GE.

:rofl:

NGU.

[Lucinda]

63. What are you going to do when she wins?

[JVS]

39. She's not that popular. You've been told this for years. Now the election results show it.

[Lucinda]

42. Then why hasn't Obama won?

I'm not the only one who voted for her. :hi:

[JVS]

53. It's a matter of time. And she also came into this with a huge advantage in name recognition and...

political connections. Hillary is unable to cash in on the same deal GWB got from his father. Obama has had to run against someone who had almost every advantage except popularity. And the fact that once voting started, her previously huge leads in the polls disappeared indicates that a huge number of Democratic voters really don't like her.

[nebula]

5. She will never be able to convince enough SDs to vote for her

but a few 'bookbags' filled with cold hard cash money
here and there could prove to be very persuasive.

aka the 'kitchen sink.'

[goldcanyonaz]

6. Without the support of the SD's neither would reach 2025. I notice you're in the UK, dual citizen?

Will you be voting in the upcoming Presidential election?

[stahbrett]

15. But it won't be a tie going into the convention

Obama will have a 100+ pledged delegate lead - for the superdelegates to give the nomination to Hillary over Obama would mean that the superdelegates are telling the majority that they got it all wrong, and that the bigwig party insider superdelegates are smarter than they are. That will go over REAL WELL!

[PBS Poll-435]

19. So Clinton can't pick up 38 pledged delegates before the convention?

[Liberal Gramma]

30. Did I miss something?

How does she only need 38 delegates to overcome Obama's lead?

[PBS Poll-435]

38. He said Obama

will have a 100+ delegate lead going into the convention.

38 net for Hillary between PA/IN/WV/KY & Puerto Rico and +5/-5 ties in OR & NC and that isn't going to be even close.

[stahbrett]

52. Considering that he has a 160-170 pledged delegate lead...

Even if she did get a net gain of 38 delegates, I don't think that would help her very much.

CNN shows Obama with a 171 pledged delegate lead, for what it's worth.

[intaglio]

17. I've been in the UK all my life goldcanyonaz

It's just that I have friends over there who need healthcare, a better tax system and out of Iraq; I also want a US government that wont screw my Country. Plus I wanted a good Brit as first lady but the Dems didn't support Dennis, damn you all!!!


that last was :sarcasm:

[kimmerspixelated]

10. I prefer Obama,

but I gotta ask ya-how can anyone vote for McCain?!!!! The man was born when Hector was a pup and always has to read his speeches off a teleprompter-not to mention he has no personal charm whatsoever! And we haven't even touched on the important crap! Whichever Dem we pick-has got it in the bag!!

[grace0418]

34. Look at our current asswipe of a president. He can't even read a speech off a teleprompter.

He needs it directly fed into his ear, and he *still* mispronounces every other word. I would never vote for McCain in 100 million years but I don't believe Dems necessarily have it in the bag. I remember in 2000 thinking "Who the FUCK would ever vote for this piece of shit in a suit?" and yet enough people did to make the election fraud possible.

[MethuenProgressive]

13. Stop posting in support of McCain over a Democratic candidate.

Please.

[intaglio]

20. I'm not, I am posting about how easily ONE person can ruin

the Democratic chances

Now please answer the question. How do you think Hillary could be elected?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SoCalDem]

23. President Mc Cain

The young people Obama inspired will be tuned out for decades (like what happened when RFK was assassinated)

The African American democrats will go vote for their local stuff, but they will NOT vote for president..

It will be "mourning in america"..for the foreseeable future..

[woolldog]

25. She's unelectable.

[LaurenG]

28. I'll just live with it. I do think the possiblity exists

that she can win.

It'll be better than a republican by a long shot.

[Milo_Bloom]

31. She voted for the war... thus, is unelectable...

The people the democrats need to turn out in this election will stay home or vote 3rd party instead of for a war candidate.

The war voters are generally GOP.

In short, it is impossible for her to win.

[anonymous171]

44. She might get elected, but the GOP machine would be back stronger than ever.

With Obama they would continue to crumble.

[khaos]

47. it's always the same "machine"

just gets a new paint job every 4/8 years..

[Raine]

51. Good questions

and exactly what I have been wondering. I don't see how it's possible she can ever be elected if by some way she got the nomination.

[saracat]

54. And what makes you think the Hillary folks will work for or vote for Obama?

Do you think the majority of the gay community he has insulted and dissed will support him? And I have been called a racist and worthless and an " bitter old woman" too many times to even consider voting for him. Most women I know will not vote for him. This post is a perfect example of why. You don't even consider those people who Obama has actively dissed. The assumption is made that all who oppose him can be taken for granted but that the Obama supporters have to be coddled because they might "flee".Well, too bad. Many weren't going to vote anyway if that is the problem.Perhaps you ought to reconsder the "base" that has been discarded and remove us from your calculations before you count up what some think are winning GE totals for Barack. Many of us long time Dems aren't going to be taken for granted this year.Count on it, and don't be so certain of the newbie vote saving Obama.

[TK421]

56. It was those big red letters at the bottom of your post that really got to me....

perhaps I've been wrong all this time, and I've been on the wrong side here. It really made me think about many of the things that....PSYCHE!!!!!!!!!

big red letters at the bottom of a post meant to bring down morale of the opposing teams camp do not...I repeat, ladies and gentleman...do NOT sway my decision....but for fucks sake, won't you people come up with something "fresh"? I'm getting a bit bored with all these promises of hope and change

[samsingh]

59. she should be able to beat the buffoon Mccain

[Awsi Dooger]

60. Overreactive ignorance

There's no other way to describe it. If our side were on the wrong end of a presidential disaster and lousy economy, then yeah a primary upheaval would be fatal. But since we're the beneficiaries of every relevant situational advantage in '08, Hillary could and would defeat McCain. Narrowly.

[intaglio]

61. OK a few near sensible responses from Hillary people

1) Obama doesn't need to build an organisation "on the ground" he has already done so
2) Note that I did not say that Democrats would not vote for Hillary. My criticisms were
===== a) I think Uncommitted black voters will not vote for someone who has manipulated her way past Obama
===== b) Young people will again feel abandoned by a political process that uses gaming to remove their choice

and for one of the stupid comments

I used big red letters because I thought it would be easier for persons blinded by their lust to pick out.

and the question still stands

how can you think Hillary would ever be elected?

[Apollo11]

62. YES SHE WILL win - with Obama as her running mate!

CLINTON OBAMA 2008 - Now that's what I call a "wet dream" ticket! B-)

[whatchamacallit]

64. Pipe dream.

Her ONLY chance to occupy the White House (again) is as Obama's VP. Thankfully, he doesn't need her.