Analysis of Obama Interview in the ADVOCATE.

[Tyler Durden]

DADT, DOMA and homophobia are very much on the GLBT community's mind, but I see these as Campaign issues, being CIVIL RIGHTS concerns.


This is the link to the ADVOCATE "interview" with Obama. I've now read it about 10 times.



http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail.asp?id=53285&p ...

DADT

(snip)
(Eleveld)If you were elected, what do you plan to do for the LGBT community -- what can you reasonably get done?

(Obama)I reasonably can see "don't ask, don’t tell" eliminated. I think that I can help usher through an Employment Non-Discrimination Act and sign it into law.
(snip)

Let's parse that.

"I reasonably can see "don't ask, don't tell" eliminated."

Does he state he will advocate for this? No.
Does he state he is committed to its repeal? No.
Does he state unequivocally he will see to the elimination of DADT? No.

He can "...reasonably see..."

Does he define "reasonably?" No.

So in other words, if it is not "reasonable," that is, not politically feasible, or goes against his "Faith," will he support the unequivocal repeal of DADT?

Well, not according to this statement, and don't say well, he could have said...he's had six months to frame this, he is a good orator and a lawyer, so this statement likely says all it intends to say...

And that is very, very little.


DOMA

(snip)
(Eleveld)I assume you're talking about the Defense of Marriage Act.

(Obama)Absolutely, and I for a very long time have been interested in repeal of DOMA.
(snip)

He is "...interested in the repeal of DOMA."

Does he advocate for the repeal of DOMA? No. He is "...interested..." in the repeal: he does not commit.
Does he even state that he actually is in favor of the repeal of DOMA? No. He does not make that claim.

Why does one think he does not commit?

(snip)
(Eleveld)Do you think it's possible to get full repeal of DOMA? As you know, Senator Clinton is only looking at repealing the plank of DOMA that prohibits the federal government from recognizing state-sanctioned unions.

(Obama) I don't know. But my commitment is to try to make sure that we are moving in the direction of full equality, and I think the federal government historically has led on civil rights -- I'd like to see us lead here too.
(snip)

Again, does he commit to the repeal of DOMA? No. He actually leaves himself an "out" in that if it's not "...possible..." then it's not his fault. "I don't know."

But here he makes a tactical error:

(snip)
(Obama)...I think the federal government historically has led on civil rights -- I'd like to see us lead here too.
(snip)

Now let's move down the interview to the section on Same Sex Marriage:

(snip)
(Eleveld) Both you and your wife speak eloquently about being told to wait your turn and how if you had done that, you might not have gone to law school or run for Senate or even president. To some extent, isn't that what you're asking same-sex couples to do by favoring civil unions over marriage, is to wait their turn?

(Obama) I don't ask them that. Anybody who's been at an LGBT event with me can testify that my message is very explicit -- I don’t think that the gay and lesbian community, the LGBT community, should take its cues from me or some political leader in terms of what they think is right for them. It’s not my place to tell the LGBT community, wait your turn. I'm very mindful of Dr. King's "Letter from Birmingham Jail" where he says to the white clergy, don't tell me to wait for my freedom.
(snip)


He has deflected the argument. He has, through this statement "returned the lob." He states it's not his place to lead by insinuating that the community should not "...take its cues from me or some political leader in terms of what they think is right for them." Does anyone here think that what the community wants is not absolutely crystal clear?

1) Equal Treatment Under the Law
2) Enforcement of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution regarding the Federal Government's guarantee that they will intervene where a state treats citizens differently according to their minority or group status.

Clear and simple, but he hints that the debate has not been framed, and changes the subject to MLK for effect.

He has stated above "I think the federal government historically has led on civil rights -- I'd like to see us lead here too." but he completely avoids accepting this leadership role.

(snip)
(Obama) So I strongly respect the right of same-sex couples to insist that even if we got complete equality in benefits, it still wouldn't be equal because there's a stigma associated with not having the same word, marriage, assigned to it. I understand that, but my perspective is also shaped by the broader political and historical context in which I’m operating.
(snip)

Translation: GLBT Civil Rights are subject to political and historical context, not the constitution. Is anyone willing to give him a break because he "...understands that..."?

(snip)
(Obama) And I've said this before -- I'm the product of a mixed marriage that would have been illegal in 12 states when I was born. That doesn't mean that had I been an adviser to Dr. King back then, I would have told him to lead with repealing an anti-miscegenation law, because it just might not have been the best strategy in terms of moving broader equality forward.
(snip)

Translation: Strategy trumps Equal Rights.

(snip)
(Obama) That’s a decision that the LGBT community has to make. That’s not a decision for me to make.
(snip)
(Regarding Leadership)

Translation: The GLBT Community will have to decide for itself if they want to chance going for Equal Rights. He will not lead in that effort, and will only provide titular support once the GLBT Community has decided (based on previous statements) that they will support "reasonable" efforts, because he is politically and historically constrained.


HOMOPHOBIA

There really is no point quoting him here, as he raises no new issues, does not clarify any old ones, deflects to the Wright issue out of context, and Eleveld does not push him on his non-answer, which has not changed.



My conclusions

Based on the questions which were friendly and not deeply probing (Nothing like the PGN interview at all) and Obama's answers, he will do what he deems possible, IF and ONLY IF the Community forces his hand by re-stating specific issues under the community's leadership, not his. Also, his McClurkin debacle remains his attempt at outreach, and he excuses it by saying that not everyone is going to agree with everything he says.

This article was a "puff piece" compared to the PGN questions, and the answers given were evasive and non-specific, with "escape clauses" all over the place where Obama can claim something was not within his power, was beyond his control, or was not properly led by the GLBT Community.

[Kittycat]

1. I stopped reading after your uniformed comment on DADT

He has repeated numerous times, and expanded on this in his open forum/town hall events. If you're too lazy, this far in to it - to go back and read what he has stated, and what has been reported on - then there's really no reason to read your flawed analysis further.

[Tyler Durden]

6. NOWHERE have I read that he WILL see that DADT is repealed,

or the same with DOMA.

He can do EITHER with an Executive Order if the congress is too chickenshit to pass it.

What he does say is he "supports" repeal. Nowhere Have I read that he COMMITS to it in words of one syllable.

If you have a citing, I stand corrected. Show me.

[Kittycat]

10. I watched it live on the teevee.

Kid steps up, asks the question - first thing out of his mouth was get rid of it. Then he expanded in detail on how it only serves to hurt and punish, as well as weaken our ability to fight the real enemy (he also used combat on the ground and interpreters as a specific example).

[Tyler Durden]

19. He said She said.

Any lawyer will tell you, get it in WRITING on THE RECORD.

[Hepburn]

24. Psssssssst.........

....a VIDEO RECORDING of a statement IS a record. Just ask me ~~ I am a lawyer.

[cali]

32. Don't bother

The OP has a full fledged hate on for Obama.

[mckeown1128]

48. Who are you going to believe your lying eyes or the op. nt

[PetraPooh]

53. If he does this through an Exec Order, and by passes Congress, he's no better than Bush,

with that in mind, he really cannot guarantee anything while honoring the three branch system of government we hold so dear. I am very discouraged that after seeing the wayward ways that Bush has used executive orders, you all think that any president should use that same sleazy tactic on your behalf.

[shadowknows69]

65. I have heard him say it in a couple stump speeches

I agree he's being less than definitive in this interview. Playing politics. Saying the safe thing.

[Hieronymus]

47. He's obviously a desperate Hillary supporter.

[IndianaJones]

2. Obama believes that homosexuality is wrong, based on his religious traditions. It is that simple.nt

[MNDemNY]

8. I fear he will govern, based on his religious traditions.

[IndianaJones]

13. He has said that morality and religion play a part in public policy and the law. nt.

[MNDemNY]

17. Scary sh*t!

[Tyler Durden]

18. The constitution separates church and state.

And if he can't sign on to THAT he needs to opt out, as does ANYONE who feels the same way.

[rodeodance]

62. agree

[Irishonly]

35. Many Presidents have been Christians

Only this bozo who stole the WH has used Christianity for an excuse. IMHO he can quote Christian buzz words and quote the Bible but shows no behaviors you would expect of Christian-at least the normal ones.

Jimmy Carter was a true man of faith but I do not recall a single time he used religion to shape a foreign policy or try to shove his beliefs down the country's throat.

It's just my opinion but I don't think either one of our democratic candidates would do what Bush has done. They would govern more like President Carter. I also think we have become so leary of Christianity because of the past eight years. The religious right were ecstatic when the SCOTUS helped Bush steal the WH.

[Tyler Durden]

44. One has already stated their faith will not allow them to follow the law.

Guess who?

The others are almost as bad in my book. I wish they'd all take a long walk off a short pier.

[Tyler Durden]

11. Then he should opt out of the election.

If I said "My Faith says People Of Color are inferior and here's the verses in the Bible that support it," I would be stoned off the stage.

But it's perfectly "...politically and historically..." correct to do the same thing to GLBT people.

I hate politicians. ALL of them.

[IndianaJones]

16. most of his supporters...and most likely most Americans agree with him. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

20. Then they are in violation of the constitution as well.

And shame on them for supporting potentially ANOTHER president who thinks he can wipe his ass with the Constitution.

[Hepburn]

27. Like Clinton did with DOMA and DADT?

Just curious....:eyes:

[Beregond2]

39. You obviously

know nothing whatsoever about the UCC, the most pro-gay denomination there is. I am past being surprised when my fellow gays display such mindless bigotry, but it still pains me.

[IndianaJones]

45. I'm not gay. Obama has said that his religious traditions...

are the basis for his objection to gay marriage.

[Tyler Durden]

64. The UCC is fantastically pro-gay...

But they don't force all their churches to comply. Trinity is not what you would call exactly "Gay Welcoming," that is their choice.

There's no mindless bigotry going on here. You need to relax a little.

[PVnRT]

49. So, all members of Abrahamic faiths believe homosexuality is wrong?

I mention them all because Leviticus contains the infamous man-on-man freakiness prohibition.

[IndianaJones]

50. Obama has said that his religious traditions are behind his objections to gay marriage. nt.

[DarienComp]

3. Hillary will tell us exactly what we want to hear though.

And then she'll promptly screw us if she's lucky enough to win.

[Tyler Durden]

4. I think BOTH of them would screw the public....

I just think Clinton might offer some ASTROGLIDE.

[DarienComp]

5. Dude, Astroglide sucks.

Pjur Eros is where it's at.

:hi:

[Tyler Durden]

7. Thanks!

I'll tell the SO! Really!

[Tesha]

9. Thank you -- exactly correct. It was Bill's strategy as well. (NT)

[Tyler Durden]

14. Which makes all three of them LIARS.

Will someone PLEASE say it out loud with me?????

Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, (and for the sake of peace) Bill Clinton, AND Michelle Obama are all LIARS.

[Bluebear]

22. You hater!!!!111

:toast:

[Tesha]

30. No, I don't yet feel that way about Barrack and Michelle.

Poll me again in 2016; I may feel differently.

Tesha

[Tyler Durden]

36. Has he told the 100% unvarnished truth?

If not, he's a lying politician. See to me, it's like being a little pregnant: you either LIE or you don't.

As for Michelle, If I hear another quote from her stretching the truth about her prep school upbringing and Ivy League education and her "working mom" stuff with her personal trainer and full-time sitter.....

The truth is the truth. And Clinton (Bill and Hillary both) and McCain are guilty also.

[Tesha]

40. Have you? (NT)

[Tyler Durden]

43. I try my best. I often fail, and then I try to confess my failures.

It often keeps me broke, and my list of friends short.

Such are the penalties sometimes of following an ethic.

[Tesha]

60. Thank you for your answer. (NT)

[dchill]

12. And THAT's the way...

it's supposed to be done! :sarcasm:

[BumRushDaShow]

15. Except for what Bushco has done with a coup, the Presidency is not a dictatorship.

It is up to Congress to pass and repeal offensive laws. This whole thread is moot. Unless the people of this country throw the bums out, then what Obama or Clinton claim they will or will not do is irrelevant.

[Tyler Durden]

21. Executive order got rid of Military Segregation. As for DOMA:

It is blatantly against the Constitution's 14th Amendment, and his first act should be to have his new Attorney General SHOVE it in the supreme court's face, since we don't seem to have a congress BRAVE enough to follow the Constitution EITHER.

What about the 14th Amendment is unclear to everyone?

[Hepburn]

29. And you think taking it up to the SCOTUS is going to get it

...found to be unConst? I doubt if they would even grant cert.

JMHO

[Tesha]

31. That *ALONE* would be an interesting data point and a useful political foil.

> I doubt if they would even grant cert.

That *ALONE* would be an interesting data point
and a useful political foil.

Tesha

[Hepburn]

42. They would not grant cert....because the issue was left to the states...

...and therefore it is NOT a federal question on the law itself. Cases on laws brought under DOMA by individual states could go up...but that is about how I see the SCOTUS dealing with this.

And...if they did refuse to hear it...that would be the end of the process. So, IMO, it would be dangerous to take it up for two reasons:

1. They would not hear it ~~ and therefore that ends the debate on it.

2. They would hear it and uphold it...and that is a result that those of us who support gay rights most certainly do not want.

So the odds on with going to SCOTUS 2 out of 3 would be unfavorable results. Only one shot that they would find it unConst. And...the issue would still be left to the states because that is the usual answer on domestic issues like this.

So...what is the end result on taking it up? IMO: Bad, bad and the same.

[BumRushDaShow]

33. Not quite

When you look at what really happened with the military desegregation, the deed did not happen fully until Eisenhower was in office. Trust me, my father was still in a fucking segregated army after Truman hemmed and hawed with all the committees and committees and the "well maybe we'll phase in negroes a few percent at a time" bullshit... Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

Point being that Congress needs to purged and then needs to repeal what is on the books, the Supreme Court needs to be purged and needs to uphold the Constitution to encompass EVERYONE, and when you do that + have a new President, THEN you can have some progress.

Brown vs. Board of Education didn't happen in a vacuum. It involved the SC and eventually lead to a Civil Rights Act. Why the hell was a Civil Rights Act needed in 1964 when the 14th Amendment was already there should give a clue as to the difficulties of the 14 Amendment and the prejudice in this country...

In reality, there is no dictator Executive Branch outside of Bushco's current Unitary Executive that can bring about this change - and in the Unitary example, the packed SC and the complicit Congress support the Bushco Unitary Executive. Change this status quo crap and bring ALL branches working in tandem, and change will begin to happen.

[Tyler Durden]

38. I do not disagree....

Can we do it tomorrow? GAWD I would love that.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tyler Durden]

26. I HEREBY GIVE MY OATH:

I hereby affirm (I'm an atheist) that if Senator Barack Obama comes right out and says:

1) "I will see that the DOMA is removed if I have to do it by sending my Attorney General to the SCOTUS to plead the case," AND
2) "I will overturn DADT in my capacity as Commander in Chief if I have to do it by Executive order," AND
3) "I will Enforce the 14th Amendment by requiring all states and the federal government to recognize the legal status of Civil Unions as Identical to Marriage in language and fact,"

Then I will become his most RADICAL AND VOCAL SUPPORTER.


By the way, he shouldn't have to say ANY of this: he'd SWEAR to uphold the constitution INCLUDING the 14th Amendment in the Oath of Office.

[gaspee]

54. He'll never say that

Because he very clearly has a problem with us. Anyone who opens their eyes to his behavior and or words can see it clearly. Obama doesn't like gay people. He couldn't make it more clear.

And he'd better find a new denomination. His church is pro-equality. He is the problem, not his church - and I feel funny saying that because I am such an atheist.

And I think I may have broken my DU addiction. This is my first time here in over a week.

And after skimming the greatest page, it will probably be my last for awhile too.

[Texas Hill Country]

28. k&r

[Tyler Durden]

34. Just in case someone hasn't read it:

The 14th Amendment to the US Constitution, section 1:

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Sounds pretty straightforward to me; especially that "...nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

[Beregond2]

37. As opposed

to the Clintons, who promise everything to the gay community, and then do the exact opposite. Obama is being cagey because he doesn't want to give the right wing any unnecessary ammo to use against him in the GE. Also, he doesn't want to promise things he might not be able to deliver. If you are too stupid to see the sense, and the integrity, in that, I can't help you.

As for your continuing to lie about the beliefs of the UCC, I can only suppose you are an incurable anti-Christian bigot.

[Tyler Durden]

41. Beg Pardon?

Where did I mention the UCC, where my SO is a member, by the way, and the local minister is one of my best friends?

by the way, from the Miriam Webster Online:

integrity

Pronunciation: \in-ˈte-grə-tē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English integrite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French integrité, from Latin integritat-, integritas, from integr-, integer entire
Date: 14th century

1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility
2 : an unimpaired condition : soundness
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness

synonyms: see honesty


I see no integrity in half truths, and that applies to the Clintons and McCain as well.


Attributed to Spencer Dryden, British head of the Arab Bureau, First World War, spoken to Col. T. E. Lawrence (aka Lawrence of Arabia) on the occasion of having been told that he's lying:

"If I am not telling the truth, then you are telling half truths; a man who tells lies at least KNOWS the truth, but a man who tells half truths has forgotten where he has put it."

[Bluebear]

46. 'I can only suppose you are an incurable anti-Christian bigot.' LOL

[gaspee]

56. ::raises hand::

I fit that remark if being an anti-christian bigot means expecting them to keep their beliefs and rules for *their* lives in their churches and out of our shared government.

It seems that's all it takes to be labled anti-christian.

And for the record, I think Obama doesn't like gay people. He's got a problem with us on a personal level, IMO. And I say this as someone who has met him.

[gaspee]

55. You're the one

Who needs to open his eyes. Obama is antigay. His church is pro gay equality.

Obama has a problem with gay people.

You couldn't pay me to vote for the dude.

[JimGinPA]

51. Thanks For That Completely Unbiased Analysis

:rofl:

[Tyler Durden]

58. Why don't you do a better one?

When this board was new, we used to say the posters with no text or a smilie were kicking their post count.

Post count is not impressive. Plenty of basement posters with nothing better to do and no social or family life.

If you have a different interpretation, PLEASE, I'd be glad to see it, and I promise I'll read it.

WITHOUT behaving rudely.

[yodermon]

52. Direct Obama quotes on DOMA and DADT.

For the record, I opposed DOMA {the Defense of Marriage Act} in 1996. It should be repealed and I will vote for its repeal on the Senate floor.

...

we must repeal the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” military policy.

http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=4018

[Tyler Durden]

57. Neither quote says: "As your President......

Etcetera.

When he does, call me.

[zulchzulu]

59. Links to Obama's LGBT record and how Hillary pays homophobes

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/zulchzulu/140

[rodeodance]

61. k and r

[JoFerret]

63. homophobia and/or

homosexual panic?.

Look folks - don't expect leadership. Ain't gonna happen.