Hypothetical: say Obama makes it to the White House...THEN:

[Tyler Durden]

His "FAITH" kicks in. We already see that his "faith" allows him to view selective enforcement of the Constitution as "OK" (see: 14th Amendment). So...what next? I thought about this a lot over the last week, but have said very little because everyone else says very little about it. But as an atheist and Democratic Socialist, my "Humanist Meter" is permanently "pegged" to the left, so this started to creep me a little.

By the way, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not responding here to any "But HILLARY does this..." bullshit on this thread. As far as I'm concerned, barring any "miracles" (so to speak) this election is largely toast anyway as I'm not particularly fond of any of the three: of course the presumptive rePuke is off my radar, and thanks to the circus of our two palookas duking it out I dislike one of them only slightly less than the other, and, as it is said, will hold my nose and vote.

So let's discuss this like grownups: Clinton would have her own peccadilloes come home to roost and we can talk about that later. Right now, envision an Obama Presidency gone his own particular brand of Fundy.

Discuss?

[Ian David]

1. You mean The United Church of Christ brand of Fundy?

United Church of Christ "Ejector" Ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXCzzNoMeNs

United Church of Christ - Bouncer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx1u1v7hAtY


Oh, the horror!

:sarcasm:




NRLR responds to increase in gifts to the United Church of Christ after controversial support of same-sex marriage

March 20, 2008

MEDIA CONTACT:
Pedro Julio Serrano, Communications Coordinator
(Office) 646.358.1479
(Cell) 787.602.5954
[e-mail]

WASHINGTON, March 20 — National Religious Leadership Roundtable members responded today to the announcement by the United Church of Christ (UCC) that gifts to its denomination have increased by more than $1.2 million in 2007 since its controversial resolution in support of same-sex marriage.

Statement by the Rev. Ruth Garwood
National Religious Leadership Roundtable

“Prophets abound. Every church that extends a welcome to people of all sexual orientations and gender identities speaks prophetically to the community inside and outside the church, sending a clear message that God’s inclusive love is for everyone.

“Prophecy brings development. The discernment process about becoming welcoming involves Bible study, education about sexual orientation and gender identity, storytelling and theological examination. They translate their beliefs about God’s love into the actions of welcoming God’s people into their churches.

“Prophecy brings blessings. Prospective church members look for welcoming churches and connect that welcome to progressive positions on other issues. Welcoming LGBT people is often a signal to prospective members that the church is progressive in other ways as well. These churches attract not only LGBT people, but also allies who are looking for an inclusive environment in which to raise their children. Once on a path of inclusion, churches also begin to examine their actions on other issues, expanding their understanding of the implications of the diversity of race, gender, economic class and physical ability.

“Prophecy brings confidence. Some congregations decide to offer their welcome, even with concerns about potential losses of membership or financial support. ‘What will people think? Who will be alienated? Won’t we lose members?’ Most churches find that they gain much more than they lose. In the United Church of Christ, welcoming congregations are among the most vital in our denomination.

“Having found that welcoming LGBT people brings new life to their community life, many of the churches respond to events outside of the church, taking their theological convictions to schools where bullying is a problem, to workplaces that would fire LGBT people, to local and state elections where ballot issues of LGBT equality are on the ballot.

“When churches accept risk and still step out into courage, they discover new joys in their life together.

“The United Church of Christ has taken public prophetic stands that are controversial and the denomination thrives. In 2005, when the General Synod passed a resolution supporting marriage equality, some people predicted the precipitous decline of the church. In 2007, however, church members affirmed their commitment to the shared ministries of the UCC tangibly: by increasing their financial support of the UCC.”

The Rev. Ruth Garwood is the executive director of the UCC Coalition for LGBT Concerns.

Responses from National Religious Leadership Roundtable Members

“Clarity on inclusion as base line for common hope draws a circle wide enough to extend love to all of God’s children. The UCC’s clarity of extravagant hospitality including lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people inspires others to pray, to participate, to reach out and to give generously. Clearly loving — amazing! Where do I send my check?”

— Rev. Troy Plummer
Executive Director
Reconciling Ministries Network, United Methodist Church

“People join and support churches that stand for something. Good for my beloved United Church of Christ that our longtime members and new friends are supporting prophetic justice in the name of Jesus Christ!”

— Harry Knox
Director
Human Rights Campaign Religion and Faith Program

“As president of the World Congress of GLBT Jews, it does my heart good to see results like this. All religious denominations are well-served when they open their doors to all congregants wishing to participate and support issues of importance to them. I applaud the stance of the United Church of Christ as well as their members in both doing the right thing and supporting their church financially for doing so. Most branches of Judaism are welcoming and the rewards are many. I am pleased to count the United Church of Christ among supportive religious denominations. As a legally married man living in Massachusetts, the lone U.S. state with legal same-sex marriage, I can say that the support of denominations like the United Church of Christ can only help spread legally recognized same-sex marriage across the United States of America.”

— Howard Solomon
President
World Congress of GLBT Jews: Keshet Ga’ava Two

“All people of faith can celebrate this good news which comes during Holy Week for Christians. The positive side of what happens when a church takes a courageous stand is seldom told but fortunately, is more and more common. What gets told most often is the threat of diminished membership and contributions. My friend, the Rev. Timothy Downs, conference minister of the UCC’s Southeast Conference here in Atlanta, has pointed out that the fear of moving forward on justice issues for GLBT people in the church should not dictate the way denominations respond to the needs of people. There is renewed life on the other side, just as the story of Easter tells us. Congratulations to our sisters and brothers of the United Church of Christ, for giving us Lutherans, and indeed all denominations, an example of how courage and faith do lead to blessings in every respect when the message of full inclusion for people of all sexual orientations is made clear.”

— Bob Gibeling
Lutheran Services of Georgia
Member of the Roundtable Steering Committee

“This news supports other studies that have shown that local congregations that become publicly welcoming and affirming of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender folks experience an increase in giving and in membership. It affirms what we know — when communities have the courage and faith to engage in God’s extravagant welcome, new life is released. People are inspired and drawn to the ministry. When congregations live out their belief that love is stronger than death, openness than ignorance and faith than fear — power and energy and the Spirit are palpably present. And folks want to be part of it!”

— Rev. Rebecca Voelkel
IWR and Faith Work Director
National Gay and Lesbian Task Force

–30–

The mission of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force is to build the grassroots power of the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community. We do this by training activists, equipping state and local organizations with the skills needed to organize broad-based campaigns to defeat anti-LGBT referenda and advance pro-LGBT legislation, and building the organizational capacity of our movement. Our Policy Institute, the movement’s premier think tank, provides research and policy analysis to support the struggle for complete equality and to counter right-wing lies. As part of a broader social justice movement, we work to create a nation that respects the diversity of human expression and identity and creates opportunity for all. Headquartered in Washington, D.C., we also have offices in New York City, Los Angeles, Miami, Minneapolis and Cambridge.

More:
http://www.thetaskforce.org/press/releases/pr_032008

[Tyler Durden]

2. No I mean the "I can't support the 14th amendment because God says gays are icky..."

Kind of Fundy.

MY religion is the US Constitution, which says that the FED will insist the STATES treat all citizens as equal under the law.

By the way, compare and contrast his "My faith will not permit me to support Gay Marriage" with those youtube ads, which, by the way, each had $100 of my cash supporting them. My SO is UCC.

[Ian David]

3. For the first time in my life since Robert Reich ran for governor, I'm trusting a candidate.

I'm using a word I seldom do, and saying that I have faith that Barack Obama won't let us down.

[Tyler Durden]

4. I'm an atheist. Sorry, I can't take your "Leap of Faith."

I don't take it with any of the candidates. I may live in Michigan, but as far as this election goes, I'm from Missouri.

[Ian David]

8. Atheists can have faith in non-god-related things.

For example, I have faith in gravity to keep me from floating out my bedroom window at night, and I'm an Atheist, too.

[Tyler Durden]

12. My definition of Faith is any belief in something I can't see or prove.

I like your gravity thingy, but as a person with enough physics to have it as a major, I take gravity as law.

I do not trust politicians, especially the two we have running.

[cali]

18. Judging from your anti-Obama posts

you have a considerable amount of faith in his being a stealth right winger and fundy zealot. And you support Clinton, why not be honest about that. You also seem to take it as an article of faith that no politician can be trusted.

[Reterr]

44. "You also seem to take it as an article of faith that no politician can be trusted."

Honestly cali, I think that is something more Americans could do-we have a rather creepy way of deifying our politicians and thinking they are in fact not at all out to get our vote and will not do or say things that are politically expedient.
Frankly, I am more comfortable with there existing a realization of the fact that many of them will say anything to get our vote than blind devotion. Not anti-Obama myself at all, but some of the overly adoring posts about any politician here turn my stomach a bit.

[Tyler Durden]

49. Thank you too. You have caught part of essence of my fear here.

When I see politicians, ANY politicians, described in terms that the ancient pagans used for their gods, it really creeps me out.

This election, ALL of the politicians' partisans make me think they're talking about Ric Ocasek, and that includes Clinton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bEu9wLDjKY

[cali]

60. Some of the adoring Obama posts turn me off too

and polls indicate that most Americans have about as an adoring view of politicians as we have of used car salesmen and lawyers. Having said that, I prefer to judge politicians as people, and I know that I'm unusually lucky: I live in VT and most of our politicians are not not people who will do anything to get votes. As for Obama, I'm not in a place yet where I trust him without reservation- I have plenty of reservations about him, but they're rooted in reality, unlike the absurd OP. I worry that he's too careful. I worry that he's too willing to compromise. I don't worry that he's a fundy nutjob who will subvert the Constitution because of his religious beliefs.

[Beacool]

70. Hear, hear!!!

I am a staunch Hillary supporter, but I recognize her flaws. I don't idolize anyone. I know that all politicians will say whatever it takes to get elected, but some are better than others, and I happen to like Hillary and her policy proposals.

On the other hand, the adoration expressed by some supporters for Obama is disconcerting. There are some who treat him as if he walked on water. It's not healthy, the man is far from perfect (as we all are).

Remarks like his in NH: "We are the ones, we are the ones that we've been waiting for"........ creep me out!!!

:scared:

[question everything]

115. I recently saw a clip by Oprah saying the same thing

really creepy.

[Political Heretic]

72. You cant "prove" anything.

EDIT - CANT not can...dammit. :P

[newmajority]

61. You are deliberately distorting his position on "gay marriage"

What Obama has said is that there should be civil unions with ALL the legal rights of a hetero married couple. He would prefer to keep the word "marriage" out of it, because that word means "religious ceremony" in the minds of many people.

In other words, he's looking to keep church and state separated on this issue. Full equality under the law. The church doesn't tell the government who deserves rights, and the government doesn't tell the church how to perform religious ceremony. Seems like a reasonable solution to me, and one I personally advocated long before I ever heard of Barack Obama.

[Tyler Durden]

67. He uses the phrase "..a BASIC set of rights..."

"Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination,I think it is the right balance to strike in this society." -Senator Barack Obama

You see, there is no "balance" to strike. "Separate but equal" was the same sort of philosophy. People can live their lives under the United States Constitution with Equal Protection Under The Law.

There is no second path, you see. Anything else gives a state a chance to pander to a bigot with "Marriage" as a distinction and a spot to discriminate. This is sort of an all or nothing issue.

And as you can see from the quote, there is no distortion.

[Two Americas]

108. many problems there

"Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination, I think it is the right balance to strike in this society." - Senator Barack Obama

Rights are not something that are "given" to people. "Privleges" are given, not rights. It is not up to the government to "allow" people to have relationships, it is the duty of the government to protect the existing right we all have - rights that exist outside of and prior to formation of the government.

How are people supposed to "live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination?"

Who is the "we" that is "giving rights" to "them?"

And what is a "basic set" of rights? Rights-lite? The beginners kit? The no frills version?

There is no such thing as a "balance" to "strike" when it comes to rights.

That statement is diametrically opposed to the US Constitution in several ways.

[Tyler Durden]

113. That's my point.

Thank you.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

20. I'm sure that I'm on

his ignore list. Some people are very brittle.

[dchill]

6. You've made it through 8 years of Bush's...

"X-tianity," I sincerely doubt that anything could be as bad as that particularly vile, thieving, murderous philosophy. I'm an agnostic, but I do believe that most of the words Christ spoke are right. If Barack Obama is the kind of Christian he claims to be, I think we'll be alright. Let me be clear - I don't like or trust religion, but I do like and trust some religious people. I also should mention that, having viewed Rev.Jeremiah Wright's sermons in their entirety, I think that Wright is right in most of his statements, and in no way do I think he is racist or hateful of white people. So, you asked, and I say, "Relax."

[Ian David]

10. Good point. Even if Obama were to christian-out on us, he wouldn't be nearly as bad as Bush.

Or, for that matter, as bad as McCain or as bad as Clinton.

Hillary, btw, prays together with Brownback and Santorum.

[dchill]

15. Right - all the "Other brands" of Christianity...

that are available this season are far more dubious in nature than Obama's UCC dealio. "Brownback and Santorum." - Stop scaring me. :)

[Tyler Durden]

17. Hey, hey. We can have another thread discussing the many faults of Clinton.

This one is mine, and I don't trust politicians in general, and especially those who let their "faith" dictate which laws they'll enforce.

I quote John F. Kennedy when he was challenged on the tenants of his religion, and whether they would dictate policy:

"I am not the Catholic candidate for President. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for President who also happens to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my Church on public matters — and the Church does not speak for me."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kennedy_inauguration_footage.ogg

[Ilithiad]

128. What would be so bad...

...if Obama christian-out on us...The bible itself promotes the most celebrated morals in the history of the world...love everyone and dont hate anyone.

[Ian David]

129. How unlike their Christ most christians are, though. n/t

[Bucky]

7. I'm sorry, but "His 'Faith' kicks in"? Dude, he's a Christian, not a Cylon

my "Humanist Meter" is permanently "pegged" to the left, so this started to creep me a little.

We don't all have those perfect Hollywood bodies. It's perfectly natural for your "humanist meter" to "peg" to the left--although I've never heard it called that specifically. Just love yourself for your own uniqueness and accept the goodness in you.

Anyway, here's my hypothetical... Suppose Obama gets into the White House and it turns out that he was secretly brainwashed by the ChiComs while a prisoner of war during the Korean Conflict. What if they've secretly gained control of the White House? OMG!

[Ian David]

9. We can use Obama's blood to cure cancer??? n/t

[uponit7771]

56. nice!!

[Tyler Durden]

19. If he'd hinted at that, then yes, it would creep me as well.

He has already hinted that his "faith" will not permit him to support complete and equal treatment.

I believe in what I can see, hear and prove.

[patrice]

11. Do you think those who hate LGBTs are likely to vote for Obama?

Of the activist LGBTs that you know what percentage would you estimate are going to vote for McCheney? What percentage would you estimate will remain constructively active on the issues, from now on, after the GE?

Obama will owe the grassroots way more than HC does and McCheney doesn't give a shit.

What is going to happen is at least 50% about who we are and what we do. You are not just voting for a pResident, but also for those with whom you expect to work on the Issues for the forseeable future. If you think you can connect to HC and her backers, go there. I DO actually see lots of Obama people out there, ready to go.

[Tyler Durden]

21. This is not about that issue...

Because that issue creeps me too. I remember someone else recently who claimed he' "...hire smart people..." to work for him, and that didn't work out very well.

[patrice]

23. So you're saying it's about defending the Constitution? So, substitute Constitution for LGBT in my

previous post.

Unless it's not about the Constitution either. In which case it must be about holding your breath and turning blue until your particular Daddy/Mommy-god gets elected and s/he clicks his/her fingers and everything is all better from then on.

[Tyler Durden]

27. No need to be rude.

Who said I was voting for that twit McCain? And there are plenty of Clinton faults. I'm bring up my pet peeve about Obama. No one has yet made me feel any more comfortable about it, by the way.

[patrice]

29. Sorry.

really . . .

I don't know what's the matter with me this a.m. :shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

31. Hey, you didn't cross my "Rude Line," like certain IGNORED posters on this thread.

"Come, let us reason together." Lyndon Johnson, 1964

By the way, he was quoting ISAIAH. Ironic.

[patrice]

38. Because I'm an Edwards-ian Deanocrat and also because I think there are very few absolutes,

especially when it comes to politics.

BUT - Get me going about Bush's DAMNED War and I am more likely to cross some lines.

[patrice]

14. P.S. It's the People you have to convince about your issues, not the pResident. nt

[Tyler Durden]

22. Oh I realize I won't convince anyone of anything...

I simply wanted to raise a "red flag." Fundies creep me, and I see Fundy tendencies in BOTH candidates.

One of them laid them on the table, though. That comes under my heading of not going on faith, but things I can see. I figure I should take him at his word...or should I?

[patrice]

26. Okay, I get it now. It's about Religion. I also hold Religion, in general, in high Suspicion.

I don't know what you're talking about with "One of them laid them on the table, though." Who? What? please . . . :hi:

[Tyler Durden]

30. I don't hate religion.

I merely state that the "Oath of Office" requires the Constitution to be upheld and enforced without reservation.

Obama has said his "faith" will not allow him to support Same Sex Marriage. The Constitution guarantees equal treatment under the law (specifically, 14th Amendment). Saying he will not support equal treatment because his "faith" won't let him makes me very uncomfortable. I realize that, especially in this election, I'm personally dealing with who makes me less uncomfortable. At this moment, it's not Obama.

So...convince me to be comfortable. I realize it's not likely, but hey, I consider myself a reasonable person. REASON with me.

[patrice]

37. I don't hate it either. I am, in fact, very "spiritual" and, though I no longer go to church,

I have a heavy religious background (hence the grounds for my suspicions).

I do not directly equate Obama's not supporting Same Sex Marriage with not upholding the 14th Amendment. And Not supporting Same Sex Marriage does not equal working against Same Sex Marriage. Remember the "Present Votes" - I think I approve of that legislative concept.

One can support the 14th Amendment without acting one way or another on LGBTs. This means that the majority of the responsibility is/could be shifted to us and who "us" is depends upon whom you are working with, what your numbers are, and what you are doing.

Just like a whole lot of other people in this country who must live with all kinds of things that they do not "uphold", Obama will be in a position of letting others determine the fate of that particular issue until he is put in a position of making a decision about whatever he is presented with. In doing so, it is possible that there are other principles, such as the absolute necessity of personal Freedom, that may, in fact, take precedence over his feelings about Same Sex Marriage. Since he has not laid the priority of his values out for us to investigate, my last sentence is as likely as your assumption that being against Same Sex Marriage is number one with him and, perhaps, maybe even a little more likely, because of his personal connections to Slavery.

[Tyler Durden]

41. As his chances are better than 50/50 of being nominated, I hope you're right.

As to the general election...that road is LOADED with land mines, and I have to say I have no idea how that one will shake out. I will say that I think Michigan will likely go "red" this time; too many unreconstructed rednecks and factory workers with just enough savvy to be dangerous, ready to believe McCain when he tells them "Democrats didn't want your votes," and then lies to them about jobs.

Depressing.

[patrice]

45. I think you are very right to be worried about it. I know I am!

I keep thinking of the advice of a young Hippie friend of mine: Find your Community.

Solidarity, Tyler Durden.

[Tyler Durden]

51. There are no "Young" Hippies! I was a REAL Hippie, and I'm 55!

Solidarity, patrice.

The GLBT community has always been pretty welcoming to me, from when I was a young, skinny, alienated straight white guy, until now when I'm an old, fat, alienated straight white guy.

I think that is what gives me a strong perspective on Equal Treatment Under the Law.

[patrice]

54. Me too - the Midwestern variety anyway. I'm 59. Except for the drugs, I'm still a Hippie.

So it's not a term I use lightly, but, YES, they are out there (taught highschool and I have this HUGE family with many young adults and their many friends), not carbon copies of us, but defnitely the 21st century branch of that zietgeist.

[woodsprite]

16. Better his faith than the faith of "The Family". n/t

[Tyler Durden]

24. I don't want the government based on anyone's "faith."

We have a constitution. They swear an oath to protect and follow it. That's good enough for ME as long as they don't have some agenda that violates the oath.

By the way, I see that sort of potential in Clinton, McClain, AND Obama.

[LaurenG]

25. there is always more to be afraid of isn't there

Do you think Obama will turn fundy on us?

[Tyler Durden]

74. I'm not sure. And that scares me more than knowing.

If I knew he would or would not, I'd know what to expect.

[K Gardner]

28. A Challenge to the OP: If you're really CONCERNED, and really serious about

this faulty line of thinking.. you have only to read "Dreams From My Father" to learn everything you need to know about Barack Obama, what he has endured in his life, what he thinks in the deepest recesses of his soul, what formed the person he is now and how he sees the world and ALL the people in it.

I promise you, you will not be bored. You will be uplifted and challenged and you will be able to answer the questions you feel you have.

[Tyler Durden]

32. Read it.

Conflicted. MANY contradictions.

Sorry, don't see where it addresses this issue. Try "Profiles in Courage." Works much better for me.

[K Gardner]

36. I see you're not serious then about your "real discussion". Not surprised. Carry on.

[Tyler Durden]

43. I don't agree with you, so I'm not serious?

Does this mean if I'm a Hindu and I don't agree with the Christian Bible, but instead follow Upadishads, then I'm not serious?

This is NOT about the "True Faith." Lots of "leaders" write books, MEIN KAMPF for instance.*

*VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: I AM NOT COMPARING SENATOR BARACK OBAMA TO ADOLPH HITLER so put down that keyboard. I merely state that I don't have to agree with YOUR "Leader's" Book, or be inspired by it; it's not required by the Constitution.

[baldguy]

33. "Obama is a fundy wackjob who wants to take away your rights & eat your kittens."

"Now lets discuss this like adults."

[Tyler Durden]

35. Boy, THAT really helps.

Well, enjoy your morning.

[baldguy]

39. If you want an honest, mature discussion you should check your prejudices at the door.

But then you wouldn't have a topic to discuss, would you?

[Tyler Durden]

46. YOU make a post like that one, and talk about PREJUDICES?

Really. We shouldn't talk. Best we don't.

[baldguy]

52. You should refresh yourself on the use and meaning of quotation marks.

[Tyler Durden]

68. Quotation marks indicate a direct quote of a person....

Something that was actually said.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/577/01/

Using Quotation Marks

The primary function of quotation marks is to set off and represent exact language (either spoken or written) that has come from somebody else. The quotation mark is also used to designate speech acts in fiction and sometimes poetry. Since you will most often use them when working with outside sources, successful use of quotation marks is a practical defense against accidental plagiarism and an excellent practice in academic honesty.

[baldguy]

111. Another purpose is to clarify & summarize a statement in the voice of the original author.

Usually for education and/or humorous effect.

Unfortunately some people are at a loss when it comes to education & humor.

[Tyler Durden]

114. I don't find distortion of my words to muddy the meaning humorous.

I looked for your "meaning." Didn't find it. Found you rude and not educating.

[baldguy]

126. See?

[patrice]

50. Speaking of prejudices . . .

Just because someone has concerns about how things are going to work does not mean that s/he is prejudiced. Saying that s/he does could be evidence of your own prejudice.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

34. I don't think I can help your fears, I can only tell you my thoughts.

I was originally a Kucinich supporter because I thought he stood for so very many of the ideals that I did. But after 20 years of RWers pushing the country further and further to the right, despite the Clinton years, Kucinich is unelectable.

I suppose my hope is that this faith stuff coming from both candidates is more about trying to prove to the American people that they aren't the leftist hippie communist atheist *insert other scary fox news word here*. It's sad that they have to do that. A lot of presidents have had to temper their thoughts though to appear less radical to the American people.

The fact that Obama's church is also very pro gay rights helps me with the issue a little. I would be more worried if his church were anti-equal rights and he were against marriage. Obama himself hinted at this problem in his article with the advocate.

I know that really doesn't help. I can't imagine where you're coming from. I'm just trying to explain my thoughts.

[Tyler Durden]

40. And I appreciate it. It was exactly what I asked for.

It's been 40 years since I carried a sign for RFK in High School. Since then, I've watched persons of vision be destroyed in this country, unfortunately a lot of them my persons of "faith," at least how they describe faith.

I have listened to the speeches of power, and in these later years I have yet to hear anything other than the well-poisonings, glittering generalities and evasions so endemic to politicians. We all think nostalgically of the "giants" of our youth, but as the history of nations and political systems show us, eventually the banal will win all.

It pains me to see us in what I view as the twilight of the republic, but then nothing lasts forever, does it? Lincoln's comment of the nation having the potential of "...death by suicide..." was true of all nations; they all die by suicide, directly or indirectly.

I just wish I didn't feel like I was standing at the bedside, helplessly waiting for the last gasp. Nothing I see lately convinces me I'm wrong. But I appreciate the politeness and the effort.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

62. This is the first election I've really followed from the very beginning.

I've really only paid close attention to the last three elections in 96, 00, and 04. I've only been able to vote in the last one. I suppose I'm not yet completely disillusioned.

When I was thinking about my choice in this primary, I actually held one scrap of hope from Lincoln. Lincoln is my hero. I read everything I can about him. There are two things that keep me from really feeling like I lost my last hope at a really great progressive president when Kucinich dropped out.

The first is the difference between Lincoln's private letters and what he actually said in public. Even back then, politics was a slimy pursuit. You had to temper your speech to achieve your goals. The more important one to me (and the one that makes me a huge Lincoln fan) is the fact that Lincoln had the ability to *evolve*. His stances on issues changed a great deal during his presidency. He met with Douglass and realized that he was wrong. He went from believing in colonization to pushing for the thirteenth amendment and getting ready for black suffrage. I think that that is one big reason that I support Obama. Having read through his proposals and books, I feel that of either candidate, he is more likely to allow himself to evolve. My hope is that it is for the better.

[madrchsod]

42. obama`s faith won`t "kick in"

if one has faith there is no need to "kick it in"....

[Tyler Durden]

47. You aren't making me anymore comfortable, but at least you're polite.

Thank you for that.

[ClayZ]

64. Make yourself comfortable and go watch

several of Rev. Wrights full sermons at: http://www.youtube.com/user/TRINITYCHGO

Get edified for free!


That is what I did, being the curious type. It think it looks like a Great Church.


Then do a little research on the FELLOWSHIP of Hillary Clinton. http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html

That is SCARY to me!


K and R

[madrchsod]

134. faith is`t one dimensional.....

[crispini]

48. Obama is good at handling contradictions and being between two poles.

We've seen this in his recent speech on race in which he managed to understand the white viewpoint and the black viewpoint, and managed to talk about what is wrong with the things Pastor Wright said, while still not "kicking him to the curb." We also see this in his history where he lived in many different countries, between black and white cultures, etc.

I see a similar polarity here: he has said what you reference above about gay marriage, but he also is keenly aware of the humanity of all people and he has in fact spoken about the fact that his parents' marriage would have been illegal at an earlier date.

I think it's going to be incumbent on his LGBT supporters to continue to press a President Obama for their rights, but I also think he's going to do his usual good job of navigating between two viewpoints. This, of course, is not going to make anyone entirely 100% happy on either side, but I kind of think that's as it should be.

[Tyler Durden]

57. I hope you're right: but there's one thing that makes me furious...

I just about lose it when someone starts referring to bigotry as a "point of view."

In my not so humble opinion, regarding bigotry there is one path and one path only that is legitimate: DIS-EMPOWERMENT, and MINIMIZATION. There is no dialog that includes bigots. Religion is no excuse for bigotry, and in my opinion (IF you read any religious text CAREFULLY and THOUGHTFULLY as I have) no religion on earth suborns bigotry and homophobia, that is, if you're not looking at it from the "point of view" of their lunatic fringes.

Think of this attitude in this way: Does Fred Phelps have a place at the table to voice his point of view? Then why does any other religious group holding an opinion not so radical, but in the same vein?

It's one of the things that makes me wonder about Obama's judgment on any given subject, that he even considered running without distancing himself from Wright, McClurkin and Meeks by about 2 or three PARSECS. Not a bright move in my world.

[crispini]

65. Interesting point....

See, here's my take... there's a spectrum of "bigotry" I sort of think. Fred Phelps, of course, is a complete asshat in all eyes. However, there are still a lot of ordinary people .... I'm thinking of some of my cousins who live in a small town here, who have been, from time to time, given to make anti-gay remarks. They don't know my brother is gay. They're family, and it doesn't help me in my relationship with them to call them out aggressively on it, I just kind of make a subtle rebuttal and go on. I'm also thinking here of Obama's grandmother, who reportedly made racial remarks from time to time. It doesn't help the conversation to label them "bigots" or not at least listen to what they have to say. Labeling them or ousting them from the conversation doesn't do anything to move the dialog forward.

Obama, when he stands up for LGBT rights, is going to do a similar thing. He's not going to stand up as a firebrand but as an elected official, almost a diplomat. He's going to have teaching moments, and leadership moments, but the strong rhetoric is of necessity going to have to come from, as he says in that Advocate article, the community's own leadership. In much the same way that Wright has done, with the strong rhetoric. :shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

69. See, to me, Dialog with persons who discriminate, no matter how little...

...is not valid.

I knew persons who put on sheets on weekends. I NEVER socialized with them and when they asked, I told them why.

To me, it's the 21st century. If someone wants to misinterpret the Bible or the Q'ran and tell me that God says being gay is a sin, and can't be accepted in society, then I am sorry for them, but they still don't have a place at the discussion.

Period.

I almost said I wish this could be otherwise, but you know what? I don't. It's far past time we treated the bigots openly and publicly the same way they treat those they don't like: WITH CONTEMPT.

[crispini]

85. Let me think about this some more.

I guess I just don't have the stones to call people out in a contemptuous way. But, I don't know anyone who puts on sheets, or says that gays can't be accepted in society. I know some older people who quietly are not fans of gay "marriage" but still socialize with gay people and keeps that opinion in the closet. When I called one of them out, along the lines of, "Don't you think our friends X and Y should be able to see each other in the hospital in case of emergency, make decisions for each other, legal stuff like that," he goes, "Yes," he just has some weird hangup around the word "marriage." I don't know what to call that. :shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

87. Unfortunately, it has a name.

It's called discrimination, and the people that practice it are called bigots.

See for me, it's like being "a little bit pregnant." Ain't no such thing. I've had people tell me that there's no way I can be a good person, because I can't be moral without "the love of JESUS in your heart!" My friends at the Hillel in Ann Arbor would have had some thoughts on that matter.

We have 6 BILLION people on Earth now. Bigotry is not only wrong, it's suicidal. Ask a Rwandan.

[crispini]

94. People who tell you that you are not a good person are asshats, and bigots, agreed.

But even your example doesn't quite work. Yes, either you're pregnant or you're not, agreed. BUT ... the first trimester is substantially different from the third trimester, ya know? ;) What do you do with first-trimester bigots? Maybe roundly denouncing them is the way to go, I don't know. I'm just not good at roundly denouncing. I have always operated by the "you catch more flies with honey" principle. :shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

103. I appreciate the sentiment, but don't take the analogy at face value.

I pre-date Roe v Wade. When you were pregnant at MY high school, your new name was "Mommy."

I almost said again I wish I could be as open as you about it, but I've lived through too much bigotry, and been tear gassed for it more than once. Bigotry is a curable mental illness, in my book; so if they want to be cured, I'm for giving them all the help they need, but, if they want to play their game, they can have Catalina Island. We'll fly them food, and then they can't contaminate the society with their attitudes, which are incompatible with Democracy and Freedom.

Or they can stay and be cured. Or grow up, if you will. The PLAYGROUND was always a bastion for discrimination, bigotry and abuse.

That way, they can have a choice, too.

[patrice]

59. He doesn't just blindly accept false dichotomies. This is one of the things I like best about him.

Most politicians hear this shit we are fed and tremble in their shoes and then regurgitate empty talking points to asuage both sides and hide from doing anything until they absolutely have to and then it is often too late to affect constructive change.

I think, in many ways organic and more emergent, we are at an evolutionary crossroads here that includes the possibility of more synthetic (as in thesis -> anti-thesis -> synthesis) cognitive processes. Not all syntheses will be viable; what will happen depends upon how many of us stay awake and constructively active on the issues and on the relationships between issues: e.g. the alliance that is develloping right now between Environmental activists and Peace activists.

:hi:

[Warren Stupidity]

53. Obama is neither an atheist nor a democratic socialist.

No shit. And he is all faithy and everything. No shit. Well ok. I've actually bothered to read a couple of Rev. Wright's sermons. Have you? Obama's faithyness is ok with me, but just ok. I do not think he is going to continue the theocratic shennanigans of the bush administration, I do not think he at all subscribes to the dominionist ideas of the fundaloon right. He is a center-right christian democrat. He sure as heck is better than that fuckwit McCain, which is about all I need to know for now. 1-20-09 will be time enough to worry about just what sort of deal we have made.

p.s. I haven't been able to vote for a progressive democratic presidential candidate since 1972. Oh well.

[newmajority]

55. Obama's faith is far more compatible with Liberal ideals than Hillary's

Hillary prays with Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback. Those two are far more threatening to this country than Jeremiah Wright ever thought of being.

As for the Constitution, Obama knows it well enough that he used to teach it for a living. On the other hand, Hillary's spent the last 7 years helping Bush wipe his monkey ass with it.

[patrice]

63. As an old Hippie, my problems with HC have to do with the fact that she is a REACTIONARY.

Hence, her IWR vote.

We need the People to be PRO-ACTION(aries).

She IS right about Universal Health Care, but I expect that is something (else) that the People are going to have to assume the responsibility for after the GE.

[Terran]

58. question

Do you actually think Mrs. Clinton is going to "enforce the 14th Amendment" when she gets in the White House and go all-out on same-sex marriage on the federal level? If you believe that, then I'd say your claim to not having "faith" is somewhat less than true.

Look, I do appreciate all your dedication to issues around LGBT equality (and I'm gay and partnered for 23 years), but I don't realistically think same-sex marriage is going to happen federally for a long time. It's basically the final frontier for America, and America isn't ready to go there yet. So I have to say I find the whole premise of this thread extremely disingenuous. You snidely snipe at Obama and his likely failure to create a social paradise for my people, when in fact your candidate is absolutely no more likely than he is to any such thing. So please get real, get off your high horse, and stop posting this silly sh*t.

[TahitiNut]

71. It sure as hell won't find a champion in Senator DADT, the DOMA-enabling triangulator.

I see very little daylight between the 'official' Clinton and Obama positions on this and many other issues. What I DO see is a track record from Senator Clinton that's disheartening to disgusting.

[Tyler Durden]

75. This is not a Clinton thread.

You want me to start one, I will.

But you have to promise to be polite, as I have asked people here to be.

[TahitiNut]

78. Who died and gave you Admin powers?

Your response is arrogant, irrelevant, pretentious, and presumptuous. This forum is about the Democratic Primary ... which is now Clinton v. Obama. EVERY thread is about BOTH ... and there is no 'rule' (explicit or implied) that excludes ANY comparison between the two.

[Tyler Durden]

80. What happened to you ?

I remember you as amiable, and reasonable.

What happened to turn you into this person? I'm trying like HELL to not be what this miserable stinking election is making every effort to turn me into.

Rude just doesn't work with me. I said nothing rude to you. I made a quiet, honest response to a provocation; I must assume that is now your way of communication.

[TahitiNut]

84. I think I made it clear.

The pretense that any memeber can deign to make some specious ruling that another member's post is somehow off-topic or out-of-bounds because it compares one candidate to the other is sheer nonsense ... and rude.

The FORUM clearly makes it "fair game" to draw comparisons. Every time.

Regarding Obama ... any fair and clear-eyed observer will note that the "black community" is somewhat more inimical to GLBT issues than the the nation as a whole ... as is the "fundy community." Obama knows that it's like handling nitroclycerine ... as does anyone campaigning in black churches (which serve as community centers). That said, and I'm SURE no Obama supporter, Obama addressed the issue forthrightly in campaign appearances in that venue. I'll give him the benefit of any doubt and take him at his word that he's workng to be an advocate of justice and fairness - EVEN IF IT'S NOT UP TO MY STANDARDS. (I'm a Kucinich supporter, and Dennis takes the stances with which I agree.)

[Tyler Durden]

86. I think I was pretty clear at the onset.

MOST of us were trying to make this calm and polite, without any name calling. Mostly we've succeeded.

The concept that anything is "fair game" is up to you, but when most of everyone else is NOT making comparisons, and is NOT calling names, well, you do the math. It isn't very complementary.

Regarding Obama...anyone listening to the Presidential Oath of Office SHOULD draw the conclusion that "communities" that do not respect other "communities" under the Equal Treatment of the 14th amendment have forfeited their place at the discussion table.

To draw an unfair comparison, I'm absolutely certain that when David Duke was running for office, he made stops at KKK halls that occasionally got used as "community centers." Obama made no statement that I could parse down to a YES or NO answer, and this has nothing to do with MY standards. The Constitution doesn't seem to have a "Fudge Factor" built in that says, "We can bend the Constitution if you're not comfortable with it."

Are politicians going to do that? Sure, as long as there are people bigoted or foolish enough to let them. Is it right? By no stretch of the imagination. Are they ALL doing it? Damned right.

You know what? I hope in some dark corner of my psyche that they keep it up until the whole thing goes BANG! Maybe we can rebuild something with EQUALITY, FRATERNITY, AND LIBERTY. Not THAT sure would be a change. And I have the right to withhold support from any politician they will not support the Constitution in whole cloth, and you can insinuate from that any way you chose: that's YOUR right.

[Tyler Durden]

73. Answer

This is an Obama thread. I'm not making any comparisons to Clinton in this. I said nothing in this thread about ANYONE being "my" candidate. If the truth be known, I'm disgusted with all of them, at least the ones we're left with.

I've been working for Equal Rights for EVERYONE since 1970, and I am absolutely heartbroken that we have fielded a WOMAN and a PERSON OF COLOR for candidates, and NEITHER ONE will stand up and say, "YES! No matter what, Equal Treatment Under the Law will be followed on my watch." TWO candidates from groups traditionally the targets of discrimination, and they will not stand up and be counted for Equal Rights? Disgusting.

I may not get my face rubbed in the fact that I'm an atheist as much as you likely have for being gay, but believe me, there are MANY occasions where I dodge the issue, knowing that if I state my beliefs I will be the subject of ridicule or contempt.

I'm in strong Solidarity with the GLBT community and have been so since High School in the 60's, but I'm not doing this for YOU. I'm doing it for EVERYONE, as we all should.

[Terran]

89. Dodging the issue

Well, this election is about both candidates, so I see no point in confining the discussion to Obama alone here. And you haven't addressed my point, which is that neither candidate is likely to seriously address this issue, when you're making it sound like only Obama is the one who will fail in that. You know damn well they both will. And I'm sorry...like I said, I appreciate your solidarity, and I know it's not just about me, but as a gay man, I think I'm the one dealing with this realistically, not you. I'm the one being denied basic *economic* rights, not you. You want Hil or Barack elected instead of McCain at least? Then give them a break on this issue, because they will both lose if they come out strongly for same-sex marriage.

[Tyler Durden]

90. Actually, I did address it..

I said this:

"I've been working for Equal Rights for EVERYONE since 1970, and I am absolutely heartbroken that we have fielded a WOMAN and a PERSON OF COLOR for candidates, and NEITHER ONE will stand up and say, "YES! No matter what, Equal Treatment Under the Law will be followed on my watch." TWO candidates from groups traditionally the targets of discrimination, and they will not stand up and be counted for Equal Rights? Disgusting."

But I'll make it clearer: NO. Not either of ours, nor McCain has stood up for equal rights in words of one syllable, like "YES I AM, YES I WILL."

The problem is, it's a slippery slope. First Gay people, then Gay People and Muslims, then Gay People, Muslims and Atheists...

You see where I'm going? Bigotry cannot be tolerated, and if present it will always find new targets. It's a SHOTGUN.

[Terran]

109. Okay...

But I'll make it clearer: NO. Not either of ours, nor McCain has stood up for equal rights in words of one syllable, like "YES I AM, YES I WILL."

Then WHY couch your OP in terms of Obama being a "Fundy"? I think you've lost all sense of perspective when you associate that term with a good man like him...and anyone who'd say the same about Clinton is equally off-base.

As for the above, fine, you're right, no argument. But as a person who is actually affected by a lack of civil rights here, my perspective is, it's not a slippery slope, it's a long climb up a mountain. In 1970, gay people had shit for rights; that was back when whether we should have gay teachers in schools was a hot topic, much less having any real access to the same rights everyone else has. We have come a long long way since then, as have civil rights in general. You have high-minded principles about "bigotry" and want complete equality for everyone right now. As someone who's spent his whole life in this impaired state, I have a more realistic viewpoint. I've waited 48 years for it, and I can keep waiting. And I'm not going to whine about our candidates for being realistic about it also. I believe they will do what they can to move that agenda forward in a way that doesn't actually set it back; but as always, it has to keep coming from people like us, not from the top.

[Tyler Durden]

117. Sorry you have to wait....

...but equally, I want no part of that slope.

I have Muslim friends, and I'm an atheist in a fundamentalist christian owned business. They don't need to have a legal means to get rid of me either.

As to the fundamentalist issue, you were aware that he suggests in "Audacity to Hope" that he might be mistaken in his support for reproductive freedom, aren't you?

Sorry if I have to maintain my suspicions. I see no reason to give the benefit of the doubt.

[Terran]

131. .

As to the fundamentalist issue, you were aware that he suggests in "Audacity to Hope" that he might be mistaken in his support for reproductive freedom, aren't you?

He "suggests" that he "might" be in error on an important ethical issue? Good god, run for the hills, he must be a fundamentalist Christian.

You need to quit.

[kid a]

66. Thanks for the discussion topic.

Can you please present support for your basis that a "fundy" brand of governance, or that there is any reason to believe that Obama's "FAITH" might "kick in" and drastically change his ideology or agenda.

Based on my research of Obama's Illinois and US senate record, his early community work, as well as his personal story, I find the premise of this discussion invalid. Unless, of course, you have historical data you can share.

THANKS!

[Tyler Durden]

76. Being a hypothetical question, this is discussion, not a debate.

Do I believe that Obama will go "Fundy" from the HEART? No.

What I do is take Obama at his words (as opposed to at his "word," indicating sworn statement, or statements declared to be honest).

He has said he is a "Chicago style Politician." That phrase alone should send chills down the spine of every person in the country.

Chicago and Illinois have the dubious honor of spawning the worst, dirtiest, and dishonest politicians of the 20th century; it is not something to be proud of. That said, is Obama Satan Incarnate? Of course not. But I think he is easily capable of being the consumate politician, ready to turn to the largest constituency and pander to their whims.

Is this abnormal? No. Would any other unnamed current candidates likely do the same? Probably.

I will not list the foibles of any of the candidates here, Obama or otherwise; I feel they all 3 have enough to pack Soldier's Field. This whole thread is of a specific fear of MINE. I am looking for some closure. I have seen evidence that all 3 will swivel like the hips of a belly dancer given the chance, and I'm tired of it.

[grantcart]

77. You mean the 'feed the poor' part of his faith.

I pray it be so.

[Tyler Durden]

81. I hope so too, although as an atheist, I'd call it altruistic....

Or maybe just good manners.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. I don't worry about Obama at all.

I do worry about his supporters. "God, destiny and providence" creeps me out to no end.

[Tyler Durden]

83. Well, that's part of it...but I promised POLITE.

And I will deliver. Let's just say I consider him as he once described himself, "...a Chicago, Illinois Politician."

From what I saw of the 20th century, that's not by any means a compliment.

[PoliticalAmazon]

82. Say Bill Clinton makes it to the White House...

...and then his "DICK" kicks in.

We've already lived to 8 years of dealing with his "DICK" issues.

And Hillary supporters want another 4?

[Tyler Durden]

88. If I had my way, NEITHER would be elected.

ESPECIALLY not McCain, but neither Clinton nor Obama would get it; but I don't run things.

If this was a thread aimed at Clinton though, I'd say you were making a valid point. One of many on both sides.

[IndianaJones]

91. Obama is open to the possibility that his objection to gay marriage may be wrong...

and he is open to the possibility that his support of reproductive rights may be wrong.

[Tyler Durden]

92. Makes him not exactly "on the money" for his views.

This is the sort of changeability that I said was bothering me.

I've heard many times that if McCain gets in (not that I WANT him in) then it's kiss reproductive rights goodbye. Now for the first time (maybe I haven't paid attention to that as I should) we hear that Repro rights might be in jeopardy with "President Obama."

Maybe I should thank you for scaring me even further!

[IndianaJones]

96. Reagan was once pro-choice. Obama is a fundamentalist Christian. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

105. You have to stop making me glad I took you off IGNORE.

Can't even remember why I did it in the first place, but you've been off since before Christmas.

Senior moment.

[donheld]

97. Do you have any proof he's open to that possibility?

[IndianaJones]

98. he says so in his book...I take him at his word. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

100. I'd forgotten that.

I read the book. Guess I just got "Issue Tracked."

[IndianaJones]

101. the book is eye opening. nt.

[Teaser]

93. You will wear a burqa and like it dammit

you've always wanted to anyway.

[Tyler Durden]

122. Can I be NAKED underneath it?

oooooo SEXY!

[Teaser]

130. HAWT

.

[knixphan]

95. or how about Obama makes it to the white house, and then

We do our f'ing jobs as educated progressive citizens, get off the sidelines, get on the horn with our senators and and push President Obama to sign the bills that will improve this nation, as well as supporting democratic candidates in every state...

How about that?

[Tyler Durden]

99. Works for me Comrade.

I just think he's listening to a different BAND. I mean the Religious Right kept the rePuke congress/president in office. Maybe he thinks he can do the same thing.

Who knows what he thinks? I'm still remembering "I won't run for President" and "I'm for Single Payer Healthcare."

[dionysus]

102. what if monkeys flew out of your ass?

[Tyler Durden]

104. What if you participated in the discussion?

Instead of "Thread bombing," that is.

Seriously, is this not a problem with you? You're OK with this?

[dionysus]

106. you're making a big assumption that what you lay out in the OP will happen...

i do not see Barack as a fundy. You could make an identical OP substituting Hillary for Barack and her secret little prayer group with Wright....

[Tyler Durden]

107. I just may do that, but it wasn't an assumption....

It was an expression of a personal concern that could happen.

I was reminded that in "Audacity of Hope" Senator Obama reflects that he could be wrong in his support for reproductive rights.

To be fair, it includes the comment that he might be wrong about gay marriage. My point is that this is not a subject that is appropriate for an "opinion" but is in fact a 14th Amendment issue, Equal Treatment Under the Law for all citizens of all states.

[Tyler Durden]

135. Not assuming anything. HYPOTHETICAL.

I don't see him as a Fundy either...no offense, but I see him maybe trying to take over the Fundy base if he thinks it will benefit him more.

[JackORoses]

110. I would rather have a Constutional Law Professor in the White House

than a Corporate Lawyer.

How about you?

[Tyler Durden]

118. You do know he was a "Guest Lecturer,"

Not a Professor as his campaign claims. And if he WAS one, then SHAME on him for not supporting the Constitution.

HEY, I do like that idea though. I assume that means we'll both now go and support Joe Biden, who IS a Constitutional Law Professor.

[Marnieworld]

123. You do know about this statement from The University of Chicago

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/university-of-chicago-ob_n_93896.html

[Tyler Durden]

124. No I did not, but SENIOR LECTURER is not Tenure Track Professor....

Is it? Acting as professor is what they say...

And frankly, it pisses me off that he can run on such a marginal/nonexistent support for the Equal Protection clause/14th Amendment, in the name of political expediency, while claiming those credentials. Clinton may be almost as marginal in that area, but at least she doesn't claim to be a Constitutional SENIOR LECTURER.

Shame on him, and if he wins and takes the oath without that support in place, I will suggest he be IMPEACHED for breach of his oath to protect and support the constitution.

[JackORoses]

125. Guess you missed the memo the School released declaring that Obama was a Professor.

We need a President who knows the Constitution and what it represents.

Has Hillary ever studied or taught Constitutional Law? Nope, there's no money in the Constitution.

[Tyler Durden]

132. ACTED as professor, small "p"

AND if he was so good in Constitutional Law, why does he keep skipping the 14th Amendment?

[question everything]

112. This has been bothering me a lot

Especially on DU, where, supposedly we are so much against religion in public life that, on occasions, someone would post that "DU is anti-Christianity."

Yet, they embrace Obama's inserting "Jesus" into his speech and debates, about mentioning only Easter at his spring vacation, and, of course, his celebration of Wright. I am no expert of different church denomination - far from it - but I've read someplace that it was curious that Obama chose that specific one that is more associated with activism than with more traditional ones. Don't jump all over, I've said that I am not knowledgeable on this topic.

Interesting that when he did talk about Wright, he also mentioned rabbis and synagogues, but never imams and mosques. A Muslim American has to feel really weird in this world.

But it is not just his faith.

When I first read your subject line, my response was: disappointment. No one can be everything for everyone, and Obama has presented himself as a blank slate, where everyone could project one's hopes and aspirations.

Thus, he will not immediately pull troops from Iraq; he will not cancel NAFTA; he will probably appoint someone very moderate to the Supreme Court. He certainly will not work on a national health coverage. Frankly, we don't know what he will do. As many have observed, his lack of track record means that he will surround himself with aids and consultants, who, to save their jobs, will work on compromise and moderation as to not "upset" the Republicans.

[Tyler Durden]

120. You aren't helping EITHER.

But thanks. I see things much as you do, that Senator Obama has very little commitment to anything but rhetoric.

Do I believe that he personally will go "Fundy" on us? No. Do I believe he could do it for votes and support? Yes.

[Marnieworld]

116. I only have the audiobook of Audacity of Hope so I can't refer you to pages

But I listened to it as an atheist as well and he is very inclusive and respectful of non-believers very much in it. Considering we have had two Bushes that have publically claimed that we are not actually citizens, and Hillary is part of an elitist group that thinks that God wants them to hold office, we will be fortunate to have someone who is religious but who acknowledges with respect the ability to not be and still be a worthy moral person. I apologize that I can't provide specific examples but I am basing this on words that I have heard from his own mouth. I am quite comfortable with him in this regard.

I personally like the Gospel of Jesus but do not identify as a Christian or deity believer. I do respect those that try, with word and action, to live that message because it is a liberal humanist message that I agree with. I believe that this is the kind of Christian he is and would govern quite differently than the current "Christian" we have had.

[Tyler Durden]

119. Did you hear in that book...

...that he thinks he could be wrong about his support for Reproductive Rights?

[BlooInBloo]

121. lolololol

[cooolandrew]

127. Fundamentalism is literal reading of the bible. Haven't seen him advocate the bible's women stoning.

All candidates in our line up mentionoed their faith in the debates last year. Barack has mentioned his faith but not entwined it to policy as far as I know.

[Tyler Durden]

133. Except where he says "My faith won't let me...."

Etcetera.

HOPE he doesn't decide that he made a mistake supporting reproductive rights, as he says in "Audacity of Hope."

I have to look up what page that's on.