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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:20 AM
Original message
Those who insist we "watch or listen to the INDIANA speech"
are being either disingenuous or blind to simple truth. The real tip-off to Obama's basic dishonesty is precisely in that very Indiana speech you so love to promote. Just compare the words he used when speaking to the San Francisco fundraiser filled with wealthy West Coast limosuine liberals, and the words he now uses to cover up, in the Indiana speech. In the latter he NEVER ADMITS TO HAVING SAID, "it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Somehow, he leaves all of that out except the "bitter" part, and adds words he never used for the rich bunch in CA. He told them those blue-collar small town folks back in PA and the Midwest turned in their "bitterness" to cling to religion, cling to guns, cling to racism, cling to fear of immigrants. THOSE were the hateful, smug, arrogant and elitist terms he used when talking about US in small-town America, and he's now trying to spin the nastiness into a self-righeous "truth" about America.
Those who scurry in every blog to excuse every single flaw in Obama and to exaggerate every single flaw in Clinton are not helping him. You encourage his arrogance and remoteness from ordinary people.

Atlanta, GA -- Strategic Vision, LLC, an Atlanta-headquartered public relations and public affairs agency, announced the results of a three-day poll of 1200 likely voters. The poll has a margin of error of ±3 percentage points. For the poll, 576 (48%) identified themselves as Democrats; 504 (42%) identified themselves as Republicans; and 120 (10%) identified themselves as Independent or other party affiliation.
In a head to head matchup between John McCain and Hillary Clinton, Clinton led McCain 45% to 42% with 13% undecided. In a head to head matchup between John McCain and Barack Obama, McCain led 48% to 41% with 11% undecided.

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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. OBIGOT!
hur hur hur...
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. SHAME!
:rofl:
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. You mean, those who want you to educate yourself?
No, we can't be knowledgeable, we'd rather be ignorant. I don't know why I'm even responding to you anyway, you hate Obama with a burning passion.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. And in a related story ...
In a head-to-head match-up between Obama and Hillary, Obama is way ahead!!!

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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Touche
:applause:
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. You only have 1 bullshit OP left for today. Also.. Get Out of The Way.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Looks like someone is into the bitter herbs ...
... a week in advance of the seder.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Ooooo...good one
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. OUCH!!! Fock. That's going to leave a mark.....
:rofl:






:patriot:
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. One can be a Jew and still be Anti-Semitic (eom)
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Wanna call me an anti-semite?
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Your comment, directed at someone who is obviously a proud Jew
and does not need to advertise the fact - to "limit" his posts after the Shabbath is over - is Anti-Semitic, whether it comes from someone saying he is a Jew or not.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm not telling him to limit his posts till after the Sabbath is over..normally he waits...
until running around with his racist, bigoted posts.
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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. How about this hypothetical?
If someone is alleging that a Presidential candidate is hypocritical regarding the teachings of his faith, should that poster be breaking a commandment of his own religion, in order to make that allegation?

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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. Might want to be careful with that one.
I just asked him a similar question in another thread, and somebody had it "wiped". Certainly no violation of the rules, merely a question of hypocrisy on the part of the OP.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. You see what you want to see
And you hear what you want to hear.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. Then why don't you post his actual words instead of just your interpretation of them? Ok, I will.



OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people are most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to 'white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.' That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.

Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.

But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- to close tax loopholes, you know, roll back the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fowler/obama-no-surprise-that-ha_b_96188.html





TERRE HAUTE, INDIANA – At a town hall meeting in Indiana, U.S. Senator Barack Obama made the following comments in response to the Clinton and McCain campaign’s attacks:

“When I go around and I talk to people there is frustration and there is anger and there is bitterness. And what’s worse is when people are expressing their anger then politicians try to say what are you angry about? This just happened – I want to make a point here today.

“I was in San Francisco talking to a group at a fundraiser and somebody asked how’re you going to get votes in Pennsylvania? What’s going on there? We hear that’s its hard for some working class people to get behind you’re campaign. I said, “Well look, they’re frustrated and for good reason. Because for the last 25 years they’ve seen jobs shipped overseas. They’ve seen their economies collapse. They have lost their jobs. They have lost their pensions. They have lost their healthcare.

“And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we’re going to make your community better. We’re going to make it right and nothing ever happens. And of course they’re bitter. Of course they’re frustrated. You would be too. In fact many of you are. Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur. The same thing has happened all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you. Nobody is thinking about you. And so people end up- they don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody’s going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here’s what rich. Senator Clinton says ‘No, I don’t think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack’s being condescending.’ John McCain says, ‘Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he’s obviously out of touch with people.’

“Out of touch? Out of touch? I mean, John McCain—it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he’s saying I’m out of touch? Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I’m out of touch? No, I’m in touch. I know exactly what’s going on. I know what’s going on in Pennsylvania. I know what’s going on in Indiana. I know what’s going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They’re angry and they’re frustrated and they’re bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.”

http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/samgrahamfelsen/gGBWx9



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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. "46-year-old black man "
Why does he say that would invite another layer of skepticism?
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Um, because he's BLACK and "inexperienced" according to Your Girl
"Bill, he can't WIN!"
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Nicely done. Totally refutes the ignorant OP. n/t
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. Oh. If Obama "explains" it must be true
Obama could shoot someone during a debate and Obamites would accept the "explanation."
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. You didn't watch it yourself, did you?
Here's what BenDavid says:

The real tip-off to Obama's basic dishonesty is precisely in that very Indiana speech you so love to promote. Just compare the words he used when speaking to the San Francisco fundraiser filled with wealthy West Coast limosuine liberals, and the words he now uses to cover up, in the Indiana speech. In the latter he NEVER ADMITS TO HAVING SAID, "it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." Somehow, he leaves all of that out except the "bitter" part, and adds words he never used for the rich bunch in CA.


And here's the speech:


"And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we’re going to make your community better. We’re going to make it right and nothing ever happens. And of course they’re bitter. Of course they’re frustrated. You would be too. In fact many of you are. Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur. The same thing has happened all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you. Nobody is thinking about you. And so people end up- they don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody’s going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here’s what rich. Senator Clinton says ‘No, I don’t think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack’s being condescending.’ John McCain says, ‘Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he’s obviously out of touch with people.’ "


Oh look, he said the exact things you claimed he never said. Imagine that. Now... who were you saying was being dishonest?
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
11. Ben David, just imagine
really liking Obama. Imagine, really listening to him. Imagine that Obama is your friend. Imagine, just for a few minutes, that it is going to be your job to DEFEND Obama to someone who was spreading lies about him.

Imagine that Obama is willing to work really hard to make our country a better place for you and me.

Imagine that he will win the nomination and that there is a possibility that you will be proud of your country because Obama set the stage for the United States of America to begin looking and acting like a place that we the people will again be proud of.

Imagine our soldiers coming back home and a huge groups of people goinh to Iraq for purposes of reconciliation work.

Imagine Obama.

Just imagine not trying to dis him any more.

You will never elevate your candidate one inch by putting Obama down.

It is just not going to happen, this time!


K and R
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Steely_Dan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
13. Excellent Post
Good insight. Thanks.

-P
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
14. Hurry up and post your next craptacular bullshit post so I can have 24 hours of peace
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. "You encourage his arrogance" The real problem is that he can't help himself.
You can only pretend for so long. Eventually, the truth will out.
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TexanDem Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
16. you might be interested to see what the Clinton News Network said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8dRMofHNs

On the contrary,
you said: "excuse every single flaw in Obama and to exaggerate every single flaw in Clinton,"

I think it's simply that Obama is feeding some meat to the adults who can handle it instead of spoon-feeding pablum to the masses like we're all far too used to. As far as Hillary, she's done it to herself. Nobody has had to exggerate anything.

If you think rationally about this, why in this world would Obama say something derogatory about a group of people in a public setting when he's trying despirately to win over that same group of people! That's not even rational.
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redstate_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
21. utter douchebaggery
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. "Limousine liberals?" Careful... your right wing is showing...
:rofl:

NGU.


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loveangelc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
26. remember when you thought hillary would have ths locked up by feb. 6th?
remember that??? lol.
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
31. What does it matter? In 2 weeks Hillary will beat him in PA, right?
So why would you need to instruct us to be outraged?
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
32. A lesson I learned early in life; when you find an ignorant person, leave him an ignorant person.
It's a colossal waste of time attempting to change someone's mind or teach them a thing or two.

Carry on BenDavid.
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