Trust me...competence RULES. If you can do your job--no one sees your sex, color, age, or lifestyle!

[samdogmom]

I posted this as a response to a hostile thread...but I thought the premise needs to be discussed. So....any takers?

I truly NEVER experienced any kind of discrimination in my lifetime--and I could have easily felt the "sexist" stuff! (Whatever!)

Anyone else think competence RULES?

[boston bean]

1. then you have been truly blessed. or blind. nt

[samdogmom]

2. Okay! Tell your story...let us judge if I'm right in my premise!

[boston bean]

4. My story is a little personal and I'm not going to share on this board, but don't doubt.

[glowing]

3. Lucky you.

[grasswire]

5. I once had a supervisor tell me...

..."I would have promoted you to that senior editor job if you were a man." She hired a black man for it. I didn't care that he was black, but I sure cared that his gender trumped mine.

[seriousstan]

6. You are challenging people's "victim" status. That is dangerous.

Many need that badge to explain their failures and defeats. Good luck.

[samdogmom]

8. You hit the nail on the head!

Lots of victims!

[boston bean]

10. This is probably the most nasty remark I have read on this board and you are a hope supporter.

So condescending, just like the one you support. I shouldn't be suprised.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JasonHill]

59. Disagree

It's a prominent part of human nature for people to need to be a victim in order to reinforce a self-identity. This fact doesn't trivialize the plight of people or negate any sort of policies helping to alleviate injustice, etc. The poster you replied to didn't say anything that wasn't true, nor were they mean-spirited about it.

[yardwork]

66. So I'm discriminated against as a gay person simply because I have a "victim" self-identity?

So, all I have to do is stop telling myself I'm a victim and then I'll suddenly have all the rights that straight people enjoy?

Wow! Why didn't anybody tell me this before???!

[JasonHill]

67. No, not at all

of course there is injustice in the world, but that isn't the issue. The point being raised that i'm referring to is the perpetuation of the mentality of victim hood

[yardwork]

69. I thought that the OP said that there is no discrimination except against incompetence.

I guess I'll have to reread the OP. Seemed to me it was saying that we live in a meritocracy where everyone is judged solely on the basis of their competence, and you chimed in to say that anyone who believes otherwise is just a victim of victimhood.

[Ka hrnt]

24. Wow! Never thought I'd see this on DU...

And you're brave for pointing out what many here know but don't dare admit. Have you read Diversity: The Invention of a Concept by Peter Wood? I strongly recommend it.

http://www.amazon.com/Diversity-Invention-Concept-Peter-Wood/dp/1594030421/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208057774&sr=8-1

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ecstatic]

34. No. She's challenging tons of research that says the opposite

It's like coming on these boards and declaring the Earth is flat. Good luck.

[yardwork]

52. By most standards I am a success, so why do I have so few rights?

I'm a self-sufficient person with a good job, an advanced degree, two wonderful children, and a strong committed relationship. I get along with my family, friends, and co-workers. I am in good health. I enjoy life. While I certainly have my share of "failures and defeats" I don't think of myself as a victim by any measure.

Yet, simply because I am a lesbian, I am denied all the rights I enjoyed when I was married to a man.

Why is that, do you suppose?

[JasonHill]

61. Nice Article on the "The Three Faces of Victim"

http://lynneforrest.com/html/the_faces_of_victim.html

[VotesForWomen]

63. i think s/he is challenging reality. nt

[hedgehog]

7. It depends - I've worked in both kinds of places. As a white woman

doing a "man's job" (I was told that no woman would ever again be hired into my department!), I got a chance to experience a fraction of what blacks face every day. I never knew who I could trust, who would listen to what I had to say, who would try to take me down. Ultimately, I was laid off and an incompetent man kept on. ( Incompetent as in I kept him from blowing up an industrial air compressor one night, The loading switch was shot but he was going to operate it off the safety valve! I stayed at work to locate the switch, get it delivered and get it installed.)

[splat]

9. Comfort rules as you go higher, who they want to hang with, meet with, golf with...

A woman becomes a fifth wheel.

[Hepburn]

53. They never wanted to play golf with me because...

...they knew I had started playing golf as a child in grade school and I would beat their asses. Other than that...most of the guys liked hanging out with me.

[VotesForWomen]

64. exactly; you have to fit into 'the club.' nt

[dsc]

12. don't ask don't tell

enough said.

[samdogmom]

13. Rightly so!

What can I say? How can I defend this CLINTON piece of crap legislation?

[dsc]

14. before that they were summarily tossed out

and it wasn't Clinton legislation but since you apparently don't know shit, I am not surprised you don't know that. They got defeated.

[samdogmom]

18. So "don't ask don't tell" wasn't Clinton's contribution?

The policy was introduced as a compromise measure in 1993 and approved by then President Bill Clinton who, while campaigning for the Presidency, had promised to allow all citizens regardless of sexual orientation to serve openly in the military, a departure from the then complete ban on those who are not heterosexual. The actual policy was crafted by Colin Powell and has been maintained by Clinton's successor, George W. Bush.


WHATEVER!!!

[dsc]

19. because he got defeated

He opened every single, solitary government job to gays but the uniformed military since he could do that by executive order. He needed to change the law to do so for uniformed military and got defeated when he tried. See, unlike you I actually know what the fuck I am talking about.

[mitchtv]

25. end of argument

[msongs]

15. yep nothing so short term as a gay person working for a fundy xtian nt

[TML]

16. Not necessarily

I was once passed over for a management position for a "typical white person" who was inferior to me. That person lasted six months, and the manager who dissed me was "downsized" within a year.

When this happened, there were a lot of people who said "if you're not white, you're not right" to explain why I didn't get promoted. It opened my eyes because in every company I've worked for, I'm lucky if one out of ten managers is Black or Latino.

[mitchtv]

27. self delete

I for got my manners and answered the wrong post besides

[LisaL]

17. In what universe are you living?

Cause it sure doesn't seem like this one.

[samdogmom]

20. I'm sad....(shame on you...you hurt my feelings,,,But I'm not bitter...I'm moving on!)

I am living in the here and now! I'm not sure where you're residing? Check in...okay?

[dsc]

21. Oh and by the way

I have a life, not a life style. Do you know how absolutely offensive it is to have my sexual orientation called a life style?

[samdogmom]

26. In all respects about this post I'm truly sorry to you dsc.....

I love and respect your contributions.


I didn't know "life" was offensive. You know what...I'm just horrible at this "defend" your post position. I'm a neophyte! What do I know?

[yardwork]

48. The word "lifestyle" is offensive when used to describe gay people.

I am gay. It's not a lifestyle.

[varelse]

22. You don't usually get told *why* you're not given a job or promotion

if it's due to racism, nepotism, or gender bias. In some cases, the decision maker may not even be conscious of the true reason that you just don't strike them as "a good fit" for a job. However, if in looking over the company (or industry) hierarchy, you tend to find certain genders or races "clustered" into certain tiers of the hierarchy, while others are concentrated further down in the chain of command, that could be a clue that there might be discriminatory hiring practices in play... just sayin'

[mitchtv]

23. As a Union Rep, I was told by a mgr once

that they tried to reserve the Holidays off time for people"with families" ( this was rotated by inverse seniority by agreement) This was in response to a grievance by a high seniority Gay man who had to work a holiday Xmas, that he should not have been scheduled for. Good enough? Oh yeah I won.

[VotesForWomen]

65. so what? straight people get discriminated against too. sorry, that was sarcasm, but somebody was g

going to say it. i've had bosses tell me "We don't need any women here, this ain't no little shovel and broom job" etc., to my face, but there are many who will just say that males are discriminated against by female bosses just as often.

[yardwork]

74. Sexism makes homophobia ok? As a lesbian, I get both kinds.

Equal rights are human rights. If you ignore one kind of discrimination, you might as well be supporting them all.

Do you really think that a person who discriminates against queers like me is going to support women's rights, when it comes right down to it? No way.

[mitchtv]

28. When I first went to work for Bloomingdale's

I was informed that I was to make more than the women doing the same job. Of course that has changed?

[Moloch]

30. That isn't true...

It is legal in A LOT of states to fire someone for simply being gay. Competence does rule, but you cannot legally fire a person for their race, gender or religion. Some courageous Democrats (Ted Kennedy and Barney Frank) tried to rectify the laws but many of the so-called allies of the gay community threw a hissy fit because it didn't include transvestites in the bill. Most Americans support an end to discrimination based on sexual orientation and there are likely enough votes in the House and Senate to override a presidential veto.

[Clintonista2]

32. A transphobic Obama supporter?!? Color me surprised...

Not.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Always an undereducated bigot to stank things up

Do you even understand the English language? I think not. Transvestitism is very different from being a transexual person. The words have different actual meanings that are not determined by your prejudicial mindset. There are books called 'dictionaries' which may be helpful to you.

Most transvestites are straight, married men. Some wives know, but many post on websites while the hubby is silking it up in private.
Your words drip with ignorance and intolerance.

[NMDemDist2]

37. transvestites?? like Eddie Izzard and J. Edgar Hoover???

no, they didn't throw a 'hissy fit' about Eddie Izzard.

it was to include transGENDERED folks. you know, like the pregnant guy that was on Oprah last week.

:eyes:

[Moloch]

39. You make an excellent point..

Like many transvestites, J. Edgar Hoover suffered from internalized homophobia and stabbed other gays in the back.

I wonder if that "pregnant guy" is damaging the child by taking all those testosterone injections? It seems pretty reckless..

[dsc]

40. He stopped his testosterone treatments

If you are going to comment on things like this, maybe, just maybe, you would want to have your facts straight so to speak.

[mitchtv]

41. best that he keeps this shit over here in GDP

this sewer tolerates that type of thought, after all look at the OP. The poster is on a crusade

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluenorthwest]

50. Do you have a brain?

J Edgar Hoover was not gay. He was a transvestite. They are not the same at all. You sure don't mind taking your ignorance out for a full dress parade do you?

[Moloch]

76. Hoover was gay.

His partner was Clyde Tolson. Look it up. Hoover was very much against the gay movement (which mostly consisted of a few far-flung chapters of the Mattachine Society) I never said transvestitism and homosexuality were the same thing. A lot of transvestites are straight people who get off on cross-dressing.

[hulklogan]

38. ENDA without protection for gender identity is worthless

So they can't fire you for being gay. They'll fire you for being a feminine man or a butch woman.

Gender identity is a different issue than transvestitism, as you have been told multiple times on the GLBT forum. I'm sorry you continue to choose not to listen.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

43. And if my employer sees me with her at the supermarket, he'll never know I'm gay.

:eyes: Yeah, no one knows if people at work have husbands or wives or anything like that at all. It's all a big cloudy mystery.

[yardwork]

56. And, nobody at work ever celebrates heterosexual marriages, births, anniversaries, etc.

Spouses are never invited to work-related parties and other functions. And of course, if some workplaces do happen to celebrate these milestones in the lives of their employees, gay people's milestones always receive equal recognition! Sure they are.

/sarcasm

[ronnykmarshall]

47. Transvestites?

Holy fuck! :eyes:

[yardwork]

54. There is a big difference between transvestites and transgendered people.

Transvestites are people who enjoy dressing in clothes usually identified as typical of the other gender. Many transvestites are straight.

Transgendered people are those who identify as a different sex or who choose not to identify within the binary male-female paradigm.

There's a huge difference between the two. I recommend that you read up on the differences.

And, as a lesbian, I am offended by your characterization of my concern that the bill left transgendered people unprotected as a "hissy fit." Perhaps you consider it having a "hissy fit" when people complain about torture?

[Clintonista2]

71. She's already been told the difference

Her response (this is a quote):
I'll call you people transgendered when you start your own movement. You could join up with our furry friends instead of latching onto the GLB movement!

[yardwork]

73. Sounds like a nut hatch.

[racaulk]

77. You may as well be yelling in a wind tunnel.

That has been explained to Ignored...err...damkira...many times, but she doesn't want to hear it. You're wasting your time replying to her.

And she gets away with it...repeatedly...on a supposedly progressive message board, of all places.

*sigh*

[xchrom]

70. transGender not transvestite -- but you know that -- and are being offensive

on purpose.

[bhikkhu]

31. In most cases, but hardly everywhere or always

You are fortunate, and perhaps it could be said that competence rules "enough" for the majority to be satisfied. But probably anyone could offer numerous tales of a variety of discriminations. I know I could, though I have been relatively fortunate myself, and have lived among the relatively fortunate.

I work as a mechanic, and have for many years. I have always been able to find employment. But at one point I re-entered college, hoping to someday employ my mind better, and not live with grease under my fingernails and bloodied knuckles. I was fired by my employer when it became known that I was taking evening classes (officially, "downsized" as a cost-cutting measure). While on unemployment I finished most of a degree and took some job-specific courses at a local hospital, all hoping to change careers. I applied everywhere, but it seemed that my resume labeled me pretty thoroughly. There were no call-backs, and no blue-collar to white-collar avenue available. I went back to work "turning a wrench" for another outfit, supporting my family, and set aside that degree not quite completed. Not to complain, but anyone who has a job they enjoy and feels like they can achieve in the workplace what they deserve, well, you are fortunate.

[ecstatic]

33. In the long run, maybe, if you're in the right organization

Unfortunately, most organizations fall short.

Why don't you just try looking at the research that shows that there is still a long way to go in workplace equality?

[Bluenorthwest]

36. Lifestyle?

That is offensive in and of itself, and it is the very core of ignorant thinking. Ignorant is clearly the word, as you obviously do not know that open and clearly stated discrimination against GLBT peopole is legal in much of this county. Every day, people are fired, evicted and otherwise discriminated against with the full support of the law. So you are underinformed, looking foolish, and you need to go do some book learning.

[crispini]

44. Oh, that's bullshit.

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT.

I can do my job. I can do my job VERY WELL, thank you. And as a woman in the corporate world I have faced sexism and not-so-subtle hostility. Not a whole lot of it, but enough of it.

You're either lucky, or you're just not tuned in to what's going on around you.

Plus, when was the last time you compared your salary to that of a man in your position? :think:

[slackmaster]

46. I believe I have already personally felt the effects of age discrimination

I have also directly observed gender discrimination and institutionalized homophobia on many occasions.

Racism, not much around where I live but there is no denying that it exists.

So no, I don't completely agree with you.

[yardwork]

49. How do you explain the fact that heterosexual couples have at least 1,000 more rights than gays?

If competence rules, then why do my partner and I have 1,000 fewer rights than straight couples?

[Hepburn]

51. Totally....

...I have NEVER felt discriminated against in my line of work because I am a female. I was a trial attorney and am now retired. No one ever gave me one second of shit because I am female...and I started practicing when the bench was loaded primarily with older men.

[Two Americas]

55. competence does not rule

How on earth can any Democrat say this? If I thought that competence ruled, I would vote Republican, as there would be no reason to even be a Democrat.

[Faygo Kid]

57. "Competence?" Like Enron??

I have been in the workforce in white collar positions since 1976.

And at this age, I can say with total confidence, that you are an idiot.

[BlooInBloo]

58. Another white unity thread. Precious.

[VotesForWomen]

60. what are you smoking? competence can be a factor; so can sex, race, gender indentity, etc. nt

[Writer]

62. HOLY MOTHER FUCKING GOD!

In what meritocracy do you live? I want to know where that is - and go there.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. Robots are "competent" and great workers - the bosses' dream employees.

To say that there isn't discrimination in the workplace is, at best, naive. The EEOC wasn't established because there was a need for bureaucrats.

[xchrom]

72. an ugly -- willfully ignorant OP. nt

[depakid]

75. Maybe in some offices- but not in most, and rarely in American politics