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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:33 PM
Original message
We're really talking past each other.
Every time a Hillary supporter brings up his comments in the context of electability, Obama supporters come back saying "IT'S TRUE!!!!!!!!1111oneoneone"

That's not the point. We aren't talking about the truth or falsity of his statement. We are talking about how it will be damaging in November regardless of the correctness of his sociology.

Even if you are arguing that it is true, there have been plenty of "true" statements in the past that have doomed candidates.

Constantly shifting the argument back to whether it is true makes for good rhetoric, but it doesn't really address the issue at all.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Democrats have run and hidden from "damage" for so long that we have become Nothing.
And don't bring up HC fighting the damage folks have tried to inflict on her, that was about Bill and what he did, NOT our issues.

It is TIME to face this stuff you call "damage".
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. you're right. we're talking past each other.
yes, it will be used against him, but that scarcely means it's fatal or even terribly damaging. As a hillary supporter, you surely know that there's no paucity of ammunition against her. Frankly, I think either could win in November. The critical thing is who is best able to handle incoming. So far, I don't think there's much doubt that Obama is a far more adept campaigner than Hillary. I said when the Wright thing first broke, that we'd know within 2 weeks whether he could survive it- that's when virtually all of the hill supporters here swore that it would be the end of him. I further posited that if he survived it, he'd be a good nominee in the fall, as it would give us an idea how he handled damaging stuff. And he survived it quite well. I'm aware that many hillary supporters want to believe that Obama is a weak nominee. I think the evidence points that he's a strong one.
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Very strong. Strong enough enough to stand up and speak the truths
that a weaker candidate can only run from. There in lies the path to change. The Democratic party can no longer afford to prop up candidates that are too weak to speak the simple truth, that can not address reality because they are too afraid to do so.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The path to change is only taken if he can actually WIN THE GE.
Him speaking the truth and then losing the GE will not give us the change we want.
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. What you say is true -
real change will only start if a strong candidate like Obama can win the GE. Which is all the more reason to call Hillary out on her ridiculous right wing based spin of what Obama said. We already have the right wing nut jobs out there telling the economically challenged people of this nation that every thing is fine, no need to change the course we are on, the Democrats really don't need one of their own reinforcing that message.

I don't think Hillary believes a word of her latest attack on Obama, she just saw what looked like an opening and tried to leap on it. I have no respect for somebody like that, and I certainly will not vote in the Democratic primary for a person like that. Through this entire campaign she has shown an astounding lack of integrity - which has surprised me a great deal. This is just one more example of that. There is no GE issue here without the help of Hillary, all we would have had was the normal right wing talking points coming from the normal right wing talkers. By adopting these right wing talking points Hillary gives them a credibility that they would not otherwise have - which is why she is pissing so many people off. When Hillary says something, many Democrats still listen (though many are learning their lesson the hard way), but if a Republican says the exact same piece of BS, they will be dismissed as hacks by Democrats. There in lies the slippery slope that Hillary is walking upon.

You seem to want to talk about if the Hillary backed GOP spin of Obama's statement will hurt him in the GE or not. The answer to that is simple - as I stated above, it will hurt as long as other Democrats take up the talking point being used by the GOP. If we fight together for change - we win. If we don't, it gets a bit dicey. Right now, we aren't fighting together for change. Hopefully we will soon. Hopefully when the GOP brings out a BS talking point ALL Democrats will stand against it, as opposed to some trying to get their supporters to buy into the BS.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I just think Hillary's incoming is 16-year-old news that no one cares about.
The fact that Obama survived Wright and may survive this in the Democratic primary really doesn't necessarily indicate he will survive it in Nov. With Kerry, they had to make up stuff. With Obama, there is so much new factual stuff that is twice as damning electorally as any stuff they made up about Kerry. Obama is not well defined in the minds of Americans because he is new on the scene. This opens up a huge possibility for them to define him. Hillary is already defined. Some will hate her and will always hate her, but I think they would vote anyway against any Dem and wouldn't be enough to cause her to lose.

I'm not trying to "convince myself" Obama is weak -- that just is the case (from my point of view). I want the most electable candidate, period, because SCOTUS is my main issue. Both Hillary and Obama would make fine presidents, should they get elected. If I thought Obama were more electable, I would be supporting him.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. If I Thought Hillary Was More Electable I'd Be Sad For My Country...
But she's not. The M$M first tried to shove snippets of Obama's pastor's words into his mouth, and now they're trying to misinterpret his words into an issue of electability, with a big assist from the person ducking her lie about sniperfire.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. um. no. first of all, there's plenty of new stuff. Giustra, Gupta
and rumors of Bill's affairs will all be new. Secondly, you're woefully wrong if you think old stuff won't resonate. It many not with most dems, but it will with some and with lots and lots of indies and repubs. It's not just some people that hate her, it's a majority of Americans. And you're inflating the stuff on Obama. Look, he has teflon, and she's the most disliked pol in America- outside of bush. If you actually had the ability to stand back and look at it, you'd see that.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. GDP is 10% Republican operatives, 10% Obama campaign staffers, 2% Clinton staffers, and 78% suckers.
It was 10% Clinton staffers, but the other 8% gave up. Welcome to the reality of President McCain.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Which Group Are You In?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. there's clinical help for your paranoia
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Which one are you?
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Agree to an extent
more like 20% GOP operatives, 35% Obama staffers, 2% Clinton staffers, 15% regular DU'ers and the rest Obama newbies being directed by his staffers to post at sites like DU.

Its difficult talking with Obama's young supporters, since they have so little real knowledge of what's been going on for the last 20 years in the world of politics and public policy. They have no "institutional memory" so to speak and are easily programmed to repeat both GOP and Obama talking points, many of which overlap.

Its difficult discussing health care reform with people who think they will live forever and don't need insurance; or discussing economic policy with people who weren't old enough during the Clinton/Gore years to know the difference between Democratic and GOP policy.

I'm sure its one of the reasons Obama went so strongly for the youth vote. They're easy to bamboozle and program.

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. I'm a sucker who stopped caring and got out for the most part.
I was sick of being a sucker. There are better things to do.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. I agree with you, but reason doesn't win out over idealism around here.
I don't blame people for sticking to their moral "guns"--unless and until it costs us the election. When November is on the line, I prioritize winning over getting my favorite candidate. I support Clinton as well, mostly because she's a thousand times more electable than Obama is. At this point I usually get deluged with, "But, but, she lied about THIS! XXXX people won't vote for her!! Repukes hate her more than they hate Obama!!!". I tend to filter out the hyperbole and wild conjecture, because it's unimportant and rather silly. All that matters is a Dem win in November. The Repukes who hate Clinton weren't going to vote for her anyway, and the fact that so many of them hate McCain just as much kind of dulls down the "negatives" factor. This popularity-contest primary election is just getting ridiculously personal and hateful between the supporters of each candidate. Behold, the power of the internet.

In November, the Repukes will vote for McCain and the Democrats will vote for whoever our nominee is. If a few Hillary-haters or Obama-haters refusing to support the Other candidate are enough to make the difference and throw the election to McCain, well I guess they'll have a lovely time explaining why THEIR precious "principles" were more important than the lives of our soldiers, the health of our Supreme Court for the next twenty years or so, and the loss of their own Social Security benefits. Good luck to 'em.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. And when Obama supporters come back with their
"it's true" meme they forget that Obama has changed his mind. He has apologized but they still defend him as if he never apologized. So in essence they disagree with their own candidate.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. lies, lies, I tell you!!!
video links substantiating all the lies stated in the following are provided at the link

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bill-and-hillary-clintons-top-5-lies-to-voters-on-the-campaign-trail/
Bill and Hillary Clinton’s Top 8 Lies to Voters on the Campaign Trail
#1 Bill Clinton lied to voters at their rallies and said he had been opposed to the Iraq war from the start.

#2 Hillary Clinton lied and said she had been opposed to NAFTA. After an advocacy group sued to have her First Lady records released, it was revealed that she had supported and advocated for NAFTA.

#3 Hillary Clinton lied to voters about a trip to Bosnia claiming she was running for cover and did not attend a greeting ceremony.

#4 Bill Clinton lied to voters about Barack Obama’s Iraq record.

#5 Bill Clinton just completely made up a story to supporters about Obama dismissing the 90s.

#6 Hillary Clinton said she was instrumental in helping bring peace to Northern Ireland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBCmKkLdCuA&eurl=http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bill-and-hillary-clintons-top-5-lies-to-voters-on-the-campaign-trail/

#7 Hillary Clinton lied to Iowa and New Hampshire voters about whether she would try to count the Florida and Michigan primaries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C08W-jgyLlA&eurl=http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bill-and-hillary-clintons-top-5-lies-to-voters-on-the-campaign-trail/
#8 Hillary Clinton lied at one of her rallies and said she began criticizing the Iraq War before Barack Obama did
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIuCqX52uao&eurl=http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bill-and-hillary-clintons-top-5-lies-to-voters-on-the-campaign-trail/

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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. The same thing was true of Dukakis and the death penalty comments.
That (plus the ridiculous tank picture) sank him, whether it was true or false was irrelevant.

Bake
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Obama isn't Dukakis
Obama has both charisma and teflon- sadly Dukakis had neither.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. You may be right.
On the other hand, you may be not seeing (willfully or otherwise; not my judgment to make) something that the rest of the country may see, at least in the fall. I hope not.

Bake
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. Will it matter?
By Ashish

'Barack Obama's gotten some heat this weekend for comments he made in San Francisco about people in small-town America becoming frustrated and "bitter" about nothing ever being done in Washington and thus cling to guns and religion. The Clinton camp, sensing that this may be the final Obama issue they can go after, is pushing it extremely hard, as is the McCain camp.

The comments were not worded well by Obama, that's obvious. But ultimately, they boil down to the types of comments he's been making the entire campaign -- that ordinary people feel ignored by Washington. He probably should have left "guns and religion" out of it, but whatever, it's done.

This won't have any impact on the primary with Clinton since its already over. If anything, this will push even more superdelegates to Obama because Clinton is now resorting to a very typical Republican attack against the Democratic nominee and thus basically doing McCain's work for him. All the "elitist" attacks by Clinton are basically copies of some of George W. Bush's attacks on John Kerry in 2004. And normally these attacks would be fair game, but not when Obama's already basically won the nomination. All Clinton is doing now is trying to weaken him in the general election, and doing that will just push superdelegates to try and end this sooner rather than later before Clinton pulls a political suicide bombing and ruins the party's chances in November. And it's not like any of these attacks do anything to portray Clinton as stronger. Nobody thinks she wouldn't be portrayed as an elitist by Republicans either, especially after her tax returns showed over $100 million in earnings since 2000. She is a woman who has had secret service detail for nearly two decades now. If she thinks people buy her as being "in touch" with small town America, the same small town America that her and her campaign have said "don't count" when it comes to voting, she's more out of touch than even I thought. After Clinton won Ohio and the Texas primary, people assumed that superdelegates would start swinging back to her, but instead they continued to endorse Obama because Clinton continued her negative "kitchen sink" strategy against him, and that has turned off many in the party. I suspect the same thing will happen here. Nobody would care if Clinton stayed in the race (even though she can't win) to keep focus on her positive aspects, but people care when she stays in the race (when she can't win) for no other reason than to damage the Democratic nominee and cost the party the election in 2008, and people should care. If the party allows Clinton to wreck what should be an easy Democratic victory in November, they will have nobody to blame but themselves. Democrats always manage to find ways to blow elections they have no business losing (just look at 2004) and seem to be trying their best to blow 2008 as well.

But yeah, she'll push this and it may create a minor drop for Obama in national and PA polls over the next few days but it'll fade by the end of the week. Obama wasn't going to win PA anyway so it doesn't really make much of a difference there because remember, most people in big cities do have the impression that small town America clings to guns and religion. Right or wrong, big city America often blames small town America for electing Bush in 2000 and 2004 and also, right or wrong, blames small town America for keeping issues that have nothing to do with day-to-day life, like gay marriage and gun rights, in focus. I'd suspect that many in small town America even agree with Obama's statement. And is this really the type of statement that makes people second guess Obama? No. Just like the Rev. Wright stuff, it will serve to make people think "oh, there goes the media again making a big deal out of nothing" more than it makes people think anything new about Obama. People who live in the real world realize that America has a LOT of bitter people and that those people are bitter for a variety of reasons, and pandering to them like Clinton is now doing in a pretty transparent way isn't going to solve anything.

And as I've been saying, people are beyond stuff like this. Every minor story like this that the media has tried to blow up into a major thing has ended up fading away with little to no impact, and this one will be no different, at least in the primary.

As for the general election, remarks like this may end up having some impact because part of the Republican plan for Obama is to try and paint him as an elitist liberal. But anybody who thinks a remark like this is going to swing the election hasn't been following this election year too closely. People haven't cared about any of these types of stories thus far, and I doubt many care about this either.'

http://www.411mania.com/politics/columns/73081/Thoughts-On-The-Obama%5C%5Cs-%5C%5CBitter%5C%5C-Comments.htm
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. LOVE THIS COLUMN. Thank you! n/t
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. This argument has a big flaw.
He's saying that this isn't going to impact the primary much. Maybe it won't.

He then admits that it might have some impact in the GE, since the GE isn't the primary. But he says it won't swing the election... because... people in the **primary** haven't cared about any of these types of stories. The entire point is that you can't say it won't affect him in the GE just because it doesn't tank him in the primary.
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. The way I read it...
While something like "elitist liberal" doesn't have any impact in the Democratic primary it may have some in the GE since that's what Republicans will always spin. People have gotten used to this crap though and so really it won't have much significance overall.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. Well...there are all of those blatant lies....
just from this campaign season alone!!
video links substantiating all the lies stated in the following are provided at the link

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bill-and-hillary-clintons-top-5-lies-to-voters-on-the-campaign-trail/
Bill and Hillary Clinton’s Top 8 Lies to Voters on the Campaign Trail
#1 Bill Clinton lied to voters at their rallies and said he had been opposed to the Iraq war from the start.

#2 Hillary Clinton lied and said she had been opposed to NAFTA. After an advocacy group sued to have her First Lady records released, it was revealed that she had supported and advocated for NAFTA.

#3 Hillary Clinton lied to voters about a trip to Bosnia claiming she was running for cover and did not attend a greeting ceremony.

#4 Bill Clinton lied to voters about Barack Obama’s Iraq record.

#5 Bill Clinton just completely made up a story to supporters about Obama dismissing the 90s.

#6 Hillary Clinton said she was instrumental in helping bring peace to Northern Ireland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBCmKkLdCuA&eurl=http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bill-and-hillary-clintons-top-5-lies-to-voters-on-the-campaign-trail/

#7 Hillary Clinton lied to Iowa and New Hampshire voters about whether she would try to count the Florida and Michigan primaries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C08W-jgyLlA&eurl=http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bill-and-hillary-clintons-top-5-lies-to-voters-on-the-campaign-trail/
#8 Hillary Clinton lied at one of her rallies and said she began criticizing the Iraq War before Barack Obama did
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIuCqX52uao&eurl=http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bill-and-hillary-clintons-top-5-lies-to-voters-on-the-campaign-trail/

...and then there's truth..
Transcript of Obama’s Remarks at San Francisco Fundraiser Sunday
April 11, 2008

OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it's fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people are most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre...they're misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to 'white working-class don't wanna work -- don't wanna vote for the black guy.' That's...there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it's sort of a race thing.

Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism.

But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is so we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- to close tax loopholes, uh you know uh roll back the tax cuts for the top 1%, Obama's gonna give tax breaks to uh middle-class folks and we're gonna provide healthcare for every American.

But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you'll find is, is that people of every background -- there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you'll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I'd be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you're doing what you're doing.

You should not project your own ignorance onto others.
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