Romans 12:9: "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good."

[MadBadger]

No, I dont know my bible, but Ben Smith obviously does and this is what Obama was talking about in this Compassion forum about how you can cling to good things as well. Just wanted to put that out there for the non-religious like myself who didnt know where Obama got his "clinging can be positive" thing from.

[Igel]

1. Try context:

They cling to

guns

religion

antipathy to people who aren't like themselves

anti-immigrant sentiment

anti-trade sentiment.

Arguing that "cling" necessarily = positive leads to a conundrum: in what sense is disliking the "Other" a positive? Could Obama consider anti-immigrant sentiment a good thing? No, I think not. Arguing that it's a negative-hued word allows for the clear tone of the last three, as well as the overall tenor: Their clinging is done out of bitterness, out of frustration. Most things done out of frustration and bitterness are simply best not done.

Most people I know reject the idea that they turned to guns and religion, as well as racism, xenophobia, or trade protectionism, out of bitterness and frustration. I think they'd also argue that the guns and religion preceded any bitterness--and, in fact, guns and bitterness is a bad combination, and religion and bitterness an unstable one. Obama himself would probably argue that racism predates the bitterness from the '70s onward--after all, Jim Crow(e?) was at its height during the post-war boom, IIRC, hardly a time of white bitterness in the US.

But you and I know that's not the kind of religion Obama had in mind. One could argue that "cling" is a neutral term, but stringing good, bad, and indifferent traits together is strange. "They've gone bitter--we understand this. And they seek to vent their frustration in guns, religion, racism, xenophobia, and anti-NAFTA talk, rather than doing what they should be doing--and voting their economic interests to reduce their bitterness and frustration" is what I get out of what he said. Clearly he's not arguing for mitigating good traits--guns and religion. He's talking about excessive loyalty to guns (NRA), fundies, racism, and having these be the issues that they vote on because they're mislead. He's talking about clearly negative things; "religion" in that statement is not his church, but the narrow-minded anti-evolution quasi-cretins so often reviled on DU. Except that he can't explain his words that way, can he, because that would be the condescending assholery that he condemned himself back in 2004. See petard. Claim it as one's own. And hoist oneself by said petard. So much for a silver-tongued orator. Pure dross.


Personally, I still prefer the KJV "cleave to what which is good"--"cleave" being one of those "ravel" verbs, verbs that are their own opposites. I might go with "hew". "Cling" sounds like a poor word choice to me, one forced by style and register; the dictionary grants the necessary meaning, in any case, but it sounds a mite archaic (and if I'm going with archaic, it'll be "cleave"). Language change in action; change is good, right?

[Petrushka]

2. In Chapter 12 of Romans, we read about being joined, one to the other, in the many-membered

body of Christ.

I don't know what version of the NT the verse you quoted came from; but the words "cling to" come from the Greek word "kollao"--meaning "to glue". FWIW, in the KJV, "kollao" becomes "cleave to" in English. Anyway . . .


There doesn't seem to be much difference between "cling" and "cleave" in the context of that particular verse; and, as you said, "clinging can be positive". (In the context of the entire book of Romans or all of chapter 12, the differences in interpretations might be great. I wouldn't know.) However, in the context of what Obama said about bitter Pennsylvanians, "cling" wasn't a positive.


In the KJV, Romans 12 verse 9 says: "Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor*** that which is evil; cleave to that which is good."


If one attempts to put that particular biblical verse into the context of what Senator Obama said about bitter Pennsylvanians, one begins to wonder: Where's the "glue"? . . . because he misspoke and, yes, he admitted it, but changed what he said between San Francisco and Indiana where he misspoke again when he added the third G (Gays)to the Guns and God . . . and . . . :shrug: . . . G-G-Gee! Where's the "Glue"?

Obama's original message--whatever it was MEANT to be--didn't wash in the first place. It became more and more divisive until, now, too many voters are finding it abhorrent. Bitter Pennsylvanians or not, rural voters neither cling nor cleave to their guns or religion. (Not, that is, in the biblical sense!) And (God only knows!) they most certainly are not GLUED to their antipathy to people who aren't like them! Etc., etc., etc.


Forgive the rambling. (**sigh**) No Compassion Forum here tonight . . . because there's no CNN possible via rooftop antenna.


____________________
**Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible indicates that the word "kollao" is also interpreted elsewhere in the NT as "join (self)" and "keep company".

***This is the only place in the NT where the word "abhor" appears. (<Gk. "apostugeo")