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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:22 PM
Original message
The Clinton White House years - what Obama has to understand
It is generally accepted that Bill's was a good presidency. The economy expanded across all income level. Yes, Republicans have been saying that this was going to happen anyway, that the recession that caused Bush's loss was already ending, and that the 2001 recession started under Clinton's presidency.

Does not matter. Whoever is seated at the top gets the credit and the blame. After all, the Depression did not end until we fired our manufacturing facilities overtime during WWII.

Bill Clinton was the first Democratic President to be re-elected since FDR and he left the office with the highest approval rating. When he came to office the deficit then was larger than all previous years combined. And he left with a surplus.

So one has to wonder why the Obamas are trashing the "past two decades." Perhaps this is their way to talk to the younger crowd for whom the Clinton administration, not to mention the Reagan/Bush administration, is an old history.

Perhaps this is part of trashing the 60s, even though the Civil Rights movement took place in the 60s, a movement without which there would not be an Obama candidacy.

Perhaps this goes with his praising of Reagan, to show that he dislikes the 60s hoping to attract the "Reagan Democrats" and moderate Republicans.

I have said on these pages before that many women would not vote for Obama because of the way his supporters have been trashing Hillary, personally. Not her campaign, not her track record, but her hair style, her voice, her marriage and, of course, resorting to offensive sexist remarks.

Now I wonder how loyal Democrats, who do remember the Clinton Presidency, would feel if Barack and Michelle continue to trash his Presidency. The irony is that the Newsweek groupies have been saying that Obama is the "heir" of Clinton because of his age, a new generation, etc. I would add because he is married to a professional woman who does not stay home baking cookies. One difference, though, the Clintons in 1992 did not own a million dollar house and their net worth was not even close to the Obamas'

If Barack and Michelle cannot separate Bill the candidate's spouse from Bill the beloved former President - DUers opinion notwithstanding - he could be facing a mass exodus come November.

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TML Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Get over it
People like you threatened to "mass exodus" from the Democratic party months ago. Spare us the drama and get it over with.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Talk to me after November
I will try to mark your comment.
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TML Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Feel free to
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. Just keep reminding yourself (and the OP) about...
o The failure to implement health care reform

o DADT

o DOMA

o Telecommunications deregulation (greatly enabling the VRWC)

o Extraordinary rendition (which began under Clinton, not GWB!)

o Welfare "reform"

o Political suicide wearing a blue dress and a beret

And many other Clinton "accomplishments" that have been continued
(not reversed, continued) under the administration of Bush II.

Tesha
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johnnydrama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. 2001-2008
A President's policies do not end the day the leave office. They create situations that can last years or decades. He signed NAFTA. NAFTA is hurting people now, 8 years later.

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Penndems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. NAFTA was signed in December 1992 - a month BEFORE Bill Clinton
took office - by former President George W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Mulrooney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas. It was ratified by Congress in November 1993 (the only legislator who opposed it was Byron Dorgan of South Dakota), and signed by former President Clinton in January 1994.

Every former President supported NAFTA, from Ford through Clinton. In fact, with the exception of Nixon (who was dying) and Reagan (who had advancing Alzheimer's Disease), they were in The Oval Office, witnessing Clinton's signature on the NAFTA treaty.

I should know. I worked in the Clinton White House, and saw every single one of them when they entered The West Wing, on their way to the Oval.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Penndems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. What the hell part of "I was there" in my OP did you not understand?
n/t
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. where is the rec button....I want to kick and rec this post!
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 07:27 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Perhaps deliberately removed? nt
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. This is debatable
Unless you want to surround the country with high fences and put tariffs to protect jobs.

Even before NAFTA Detroit complained about Japanese imports. We have "American" cars being made in Canada and in Mexico, and Japanese cars being made in this country, providing well paying non-union jobs.

It started in the 70s when we started moving from manufacturing based economy to a service based. Long before Clinton came to power. I am no expert, but I think that NAFTA just put a stamp of approval on conditions that were already there.

I have to question whether these people were still having their jobs without NAFTA. For better or worse, we are part of the global economy. As long as people shop at Wal-Mart, or just look for cheap products made in China, this lopsided trade will continue.

I am not an economist, however I think that blaming NAFTA on job loss is more of a political grand standing than a real honest assessment.




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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Well said my friend "Hope in the Time of NAFTA"
By David Sirota

Reading articles about Hillary Clinton attacking NAFTA can lead you to believe The Onion has taken over America’s news bureaus.

Clinton spent the last 10 years repeatedly praising the trade deal in speeches, most recently calling the job-killing accord “good for New York and America.” Yet, journalists barely mention that record as they transcribe her assertions that “I have been a critic of NAFTA from the very beginning.”

This week, such media negligence went from pathetic to absurd, as a CNN headline blared, “Clinton hammers Obama on NAFTA.” Political scribes breathlessly recounted how the New York senator criticized her opponent—a longtime NAFTA critic—over a thinly sourced television report claiming his adviser, economist Austan Goolsbee, told Canadian officials to not take the campaign’s anti-NAFTA platform seriously. Clinton said the uncorroborated allegations, seeded by Canada’s right-wing government, showed “the difference between talk and action.” Most journalists regurgitated her charges without noting the difference between Clinton’s new fair-trade talk and her decade-long pro-NAFTA actions (nor did they note that the same report said Clinton advisers also did what Goolsbee was accused of).

Of course, Bill Clinton signed NAFTA after pledging to oppose expanded cross-border trade until Mexican wages rose. So Hillary Clinton’s dishonesty, which sealed her Ohio primary win, is nothing new in politics.

What is new is the fact-free coverage. Whereas diligent reporting marked the original NAFTA debate, today’s media reduce trade discussions to vapid cartoons—ones so inane that a leading NAFTA booster is rewarded with glowing headlines for pretending she never supported the accord.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080306_hope_in_the_time_of_nafta/
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting side note
I have a very RW cousin who thought Bill Clinton would have gone down in history as a great president if it had not been for his personal problems that brought about his impeachment. My jaw sort of dropped when he said this since all the rest of my RW family consider Clinton a slimeball.

He did some things that the RWers loved - Welfare Reform, Defense of Marriage Act, Don't Ask Don't tell, Nafta.

Point is, there are elements of the Clinton presidency that were not particularly progressive. Obama is just stating that fact when he points that out.

I liked Clinton. I voted for him twice, but not everything he did was all that terrific. Maybe he was a good transitional president, one that would pave the way for someone like Gore. But that didn't happen, so we have to look back, not just at the failures of Bush but at the failures of Clinton. Maybe he could not have done anything differently. I really don't know but he was not perfect.

We are sort of back to square one here. So where do we go from here? Back to the 90s? Not bad but could have been better. Back to the 80s, which is what McCain is promising us or maybe try for something better than both.

Will Obama be successful. I have no idea. I certainly hope so and I am willing to give him the chance to try.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. And don't count on Obama to be particualry progressive
He is very much a centrist, like Hillary. And, once he takes office, he will disappoint many supporters for the simple reason that nobody can be all things to all people. He is a blank slate upon which many project their aspirations and hopes and wishes.

You can be sure that he will not bring the troops from Iraq immediately, that he will not enact a universal health care and will not scrap NAFTA.

No president is beloved be all people, by all thinking people. I am not talking about the ones who think that Reagan was the greatest president in recent history.

Sure, Clinton's presidency had its flaws. Having to work with a Republican Congress forced him for compromises. And Gore, who is so admired on DU, was a great NAFTA supporter.

Still, the economy expanded across the income spectrum and to just ignore this, ignore the fact that we did have a Democrat in the White House for two terms, is either an act of ignorance or a very manipulative act that will come back to bite him.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I don't expect miracles
I am willing to hope for small steps. I don't expect the fiasco that has been the past 7 years to be miraculously reversed. It will take time.

SCOTUS, SCOTUS, SCOTUS. That is what I am most concerned about and am confident that Obama (or Clinton) won't be appointing any more Scalias to the bench.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. Neither you nor anyone else...
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 10:34 AM by stillcool47
knows how he will disappoint.
1. He will not bring the troops home immediately....He never said he would
2. He will not enact universal health care...He never said he would
3. He will not scrap NAFTA...He never said he would.
I don't know how it is you think any person could do these things by themselves. We are not crowning a king, we are electing a President.
4. He is a blank slate....only to those who prefer to stay ignorant
as for ignorance....
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/PlanColombia_Rhetoric.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/International_War_Crimes/WhereAreDoves_Congress.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Project%20Censored/Project_Censored.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/ThreeYears_NAFTA.html
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
38. And just what does "progressive" mean?
Is it not "progressive" to want people to work and to create jobs so they can? Is it not progressive to want the US to be part of the growing global communication system and the global economy? Is it not "progressive" to "don't ask, don't tell?" I consider it to be :none of your business" re-phrased.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-13-08 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. I remember the Clinton presidency.
I don't think it was all that great, personally. I don't see that Clinton left anything resembling a record of lasting, positive accomplishment. I don't see that Clinton can bear any credit for the economy, fuelled as it was by the boom in maturing technologies and the commercialisation of the Internet. I don't see how Clinton's economic policies of free-trade neoliberalism have been of long-term benefit to America. I don't see how a president who in real terms accomplished little while taking credit for much can be counted as 'great', or really as anything more than mediocre. But then I make these judgments from an historical perspective, which takes a rather broader view than the one you're taking.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
11. Economically, the house Bill built collapsed before he left it.
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 12:07 AM by bhikkhu
And we are still living in the screwed up mess. And it wasn't the house he built anyway, it goes back to the petrodollar of the 70's, as well as the Fed in 1913.

I had jobs during the Clinton years and didn't worry a great deal, but it is far more complicated than "things were good then, so lets go back". No, it doesn't work that way. If we could now borrow 10 trillion or so from the future, we could all be wealthy and happy. And perhaps we wouldn't live long enough to here our screwed over grandkids curse our names...just saying, one thing leads to the next and there is no going back.

If anyone wants a bright idea for the next few years, how about shutting down and bringing home about 700 military bases we have in a hundred or so completely peaceful and stable nations?
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. No, we cannot and should not bring back those years
things have changed. Frankly, I think that the mess left by Bush is going to be such that regardless of who the next President is, it will be impossible to try to clean it.

But Bill was a Democrat in the White House and in general he did well, so much so that Bush thought that being a President is an easy job, looking at what Clinton achieved with one hand tied behind his back.

And for Barack and Michelle to completely ignore this, to talk about the bad past two decades is as divisive as any acts that Hillary is being blamed for.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Read the PNAC document
"Rebuilding America's Defenses for the 21st Century"

They argue that all bases we have should stay where they are...and argue that we should build new bases in certain locations. They even mention that some of these bases are in peaceful areas, but we must argue with the host countries that they must keep the bases there...even if the populations there do not agree. This is all to secure American hegemony over the world.

Seriously...read the document....it answers a lot of questions. And it will make you think twice before ever supporting someone even remotely neo-con.

And keep this in mind.....one of the signatories of the PNAC document is Will Marshall, founder of the DLC. Guess which Democratic candidate is a major player in the DLC....hint: it's not Obama.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. Well, let's talk foreign policy
Edited on Mon Apr-14-08 12:40 AM by merh
What did Bill do different from Poppy Bush in the Middle East? How did his course of action in Iraq and the Iraqi Liberation Act impact where we are today?

Edited to add: And how about those no bid contracts during his administration?

Oh and the extraordinary renditions?




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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. I don't know why they want to go there....
Do people forget that information is a click away?
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Yes, clinton's terms were better than GWB's hell
but Clinton's set the stage for all the hell of bush and he began shipping folks out to be tortured.

These folks have never truly looked into our history with regards to the turmoil we have caused, with regards to the hell we have created.

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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. Presidents do not normally change policies for the sake of changing them
except Reagan whose administration was determined to reverse all of FDR's New Deal.

DUers notwithstanding, most Americans and the world approved of the first Gulf War. Saddam was the aggressor and Iraq needed to be monitored. Also, Saddam did have the history of using gas to attack his own people and the Iranians during the long (8 years?) war that he started.

I am not familiar with the no bid contracts, though I would think that this has been going on in all administrations.

Not sure what what you mean by extraordinary renditions.

Certainly his administration was not without fault. None of them is, Obama's will not be, either.

But, as I've pointed, his administration has been generally considered to be a good one, especially against the special prosecutors that went after him from day one, with the only conclusion that he lied about his sex with Monica.

Yes, you, and others, can go and pick items that diminished his terms, but generally most Americans consider him to be a successful president. Had Hillary not been a candidate, our nominee - Obama or someone else - would have loved to have him on their team. Again, he was the first Democratic President to be re-elected since FDR. We should be proud of him.

There is plenty to criticize Hillary's campaign, but dragging Bill's Presidency, and coupling it with praising Reagan and trashing the baby boomers can turn many Democrats off.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
44. The no fly zones were illegal - nothing in the UN resolutions
Edited on Tue Apr-15-08 08:10 AM by merh
nothing in the cease fire provided for those no fly zones.

Go read up on those extraordinary renditions, learn what is going on, and know that not all the evil we give to GWB was begun by GWB.

So no bid contracts to Halliburton are okay in your book?

Hillary drags Bills presidency into this - she claims it is how she is so experienced, it is what makes her qualified.

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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
16. Bill is irrlevent and he will be irrelevent in Nov.
To think that Bill is some how going to be part of the debate in November is silly. Hillary has destroyed herself by using Rovian tactics. It's over and Bill helped end it with his asinine remarks.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
18. So now the test for being a good Democrat is loyalty
to the Clintons? I see.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. No, it is not. What a strange conclusion you drew
There are many who have been Democrats for many years, before many DUers were born. They were proud when Bill Clinton was elected, even more so when he was re-elected, the first time since FDR. And to trash him can turn many off.

There is plenty to criticize Hillary, without trashing Bill's presidency, especially, while praising Reagan.

Had Hillary not in the race, Obama, or any other nominee, would have been proud to have Bill Clinton campaign for him.
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. Can I laugh now or cry about NAFTA........
You people.....
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. Cronyism. People are sick of it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. Get real - What would this nation and world look like now if Bill hadn't spent the 90s protecting
BushInc?

If you applaud Bill's complete disregard for this nation's historic record and his consistent siding with the secrecy and privilege of Poppy Bush and his powerful cronies, then you are another duped, closed government Democrat that many of us want to see lose power within our party.

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
23. Loyal Democrats? That is rich...
Separate Bill from Hillary but...pimp Bill's presidency as Hillary's experience. Such twisted thinking. Oh yeah...Al Gore won!!!
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/ThreeYears_NAFTA.html
THREE YEARS OF NAFTA:
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH !
by Scott Cooper

On July 10, 1997, Bill Clinton released his Administration's report on three years of the North American Free Trade Agreement ( NAFTA).
By law, Clinton was required to release the report by July 1. But he missed the deadline-no doubt to ensure that the report would vindicate NAFTA, which has been under constant scrutiny and criticism since well before its ratification. As InterPress Service (IPS) reported on July 3, 'The delay appears reminiscent of the Administration's handling of a recent investigation of plant closings and labor practices under NAFTA, observers say. Release of that report was delayed for months, during which time the Administration repeatedly disputed allegations it was seeking to suppress and sanitize the document."


And what did the Clinton Administration conclude?
NAFTA had a modest positive effect," says the report's executive summary, i'on U.S. net exports, income, investment and jobs supported by exports."
In his cover letter to the report, Clinton wrote: "The Congress and the administration are right to be proud of this historic agreement. This report provides solid evidence that NAFTA has already proved its worth to the United States during the three years it has been in effect. We can look forward to realizing NAFTA's full benefits in the years ahead."
Why has the Administration been so keen on ensuring a positive assessment of NAFTA? Clinton is seeking Congressional support in the fall for so-called "fast track" authority to negotiate new trade accords, including the expansion of NAFTA to include Chile as well as the planned establishment of a hemispheric Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA). This means legislators would agree either to approve or reject-but not amend-trade accords the president negotiates. Administration officials believe they need this authority to signal other countries that they can negotiate without fear that U.S. Iawmakers will amend deals beyond recognition.
But, as trade officials have acknowledged in recent weeks there is concern that whatever public and political support for tree trade might have existed is waning. Given the stakes. the IPS report continued, the pressure has grown for officials to portray NAFTA as an engine of economic growth."
As London's Financial Times reported on July 9: "President Clinton believes he will need to expend a significant amount of capital on Capitol Hill to get fast-track authority. He does not want to spend it at least until the autumn, when the battle over the balanced budget is over."

Devastating effects
The run-up to the release of Clinton's report touched off a flurry of activity. The week before Clinton's report was released, six research groups-the Economic Policy Institute, the Institute for Policy Studies, the International Labor Rights Fund. Public Citizen's Global Trade Watch campaign, the Sierra Club. and the U.S. Business and Industrial Council Educational Foundation- issued a counter-report. titled '-The Failed Experiment: NAFTA at Three Years," the report is a scathing indictment of the treaty.


Here are some of the highlights regarding the United States.

For nearly two decades, the real wages of American blue-collar workers have been declining. Imports from low-wage countries are an especially important cause of increasing wage inequality, and Mexico is one of America's most important low-wage trading partners."
Many firms have used the threat of moving to Mexico as a weapon against wage increases and union organization. In a survey commissioned by the NAFTA Labor Secretariat, Professor Kate Bronfenbrenner of Cornell found that over half of the firms used threats to shut down operations to fight union organizing drives When forced to bargain with a union, 15% of firms actually closed part or all of a plant-triple the rate found in the late 1980s, before NAFTA."
Based on standard employment multipliers, the increase in the U.S. trade deficit with Mexico and Canada has cost the U.S. 420,000 jobs since 1993 ('50,710 associated with changes in the trade balance with Mexico, and 169,498 with Canada). NAFTA was responsible for 38% of the decline in manufacturing employment since 1989. NAFTA and globalization generally have changed the composition of employment in America, stimulating the growth of lower paying services industries and accelerating the deindustrialization of our economy."
The Clinton report claims that U.S. exports to Canada and Mexico supported an estimated 2.3 million U.S. jobs in 1996, "an increase of 311,000 jobs since 1993." But Lori Wallach, director of the Global Trade Watch program at Public Citizen, had a different assessment: The administration's NAFTA report must be from Mars, which would explain both the delay and the amazing whoppers and omissions."
The "Failed Experiment" report illustrates how the 1995 peso crisis in Mexico, "commonly used to excuse the sharp deterioration of the U.S. trade balance with Mexico," in fact resulted from an engineered effort to support an aggressive export-led growth strategy in Mexico. The artificially high peso "held down inflation in Mexico" and "helped to win votes" in Congress for passage of NAFTA.
'The peso collapse has devastated Mexico's economy. The number of unemployed workers doubled between mid-1993 and mid-1995, to nearly 1.7 million. Additionally, there were 2.7 million workers employed in precarious conditions in 1996. To make ends meet, many families are forced to send their children-as many as 10 million-to work, violating Mexico's own child labor law. An estimated ~8.000 small businesses in Mexico have been destroyed by competition with huge foreign multinationals and their Mexican partners. Real hourly wages in 1996 were 7% lower than in 1994 and 37% below 1980 levels. Of the 1995 working population of 33.6 million, 19% worked for less than the minimum wage, 66% lacked any benefits, and 30% worked fewer than 35 hours per week. During three years of NAFTA, the portion of Mexican citizens who are 'extremely poor' has risen from 31 to 51%, and 8 million people have fallen from the middle class into poverty.'
-------------------------------------------------------
Those conclusions should be enough to convince every trade unionist and activist for social change from the Hudson Bay to Tierra del Fuego that the fight to stop NAFTA's expansion throughout the hemisphere should be a top priority. But if not. consider the scandalous report released on June 1 by the three nation North American Commission on Labor Cooperation on "Plant Closings and Labor Rights" under NAFTA. It had also been delayed-by some eight months-while commission officials sanitized the findings (not surprisingly, a charge they deny). IPS picks up the story. ' The study not only white-washes data, it also under-reports it.' Kate Bronfenbrenner, director of Labor Education Research at Cornell University. was quoted as saying at the time.
"In research undertaken for the commission's report, Bronfenbrenner found a marked increase in U.S. employers threatening to move jobs to Mexico under NAFTA as a way of dissuading their workers from joining unions. When this effort failed. some 15 percent of employers actually closed their plants.
"These findings were expunged from the commission's report, " Bronfenbrenner told IPS. Even worse, the final conclusion of the report basically states that labor law is working effectively to deal with these problems and their only recommendation for the future is that there be more research.''
The job displacement effects and downward pressure on wages in the United States due to NAFTA is well documented. Here are a few examples.

In Pocohantas, Arkansas-with a population of only 6151- some 400 workers were laid off at the Brown Croup's shoe manufacturing plant due to "increased imports from Canada'' resulting from NAFTA, according to the report of the U.S. Department of Labor's NAFTA Transitional Adjustment Assistance Program. (Dec. 16, 1996)
Under NAFTA, JVC shifted production of television sets from its Elmwood Park, New Jersey plant to Tijuana, Mexico. laying off 198 workers in the process-according to the Labor Department. The New Jersey workers averaged $360 in weekly earnings, while the Tijuana workers get $50 on average. Some 24,600 workers in Tijuana are employed in the television manufacturing industry. (Miami Herald. May '4, 1996)
According to an Institute of Policy Studies report, an estimated 69,048 U.S. jobs in motor vehicle-related industries were lost in 1995 due to trade with Mexico. Meanwhile, an internal memo revealed that Chrysler invested $300 million in facilities in Coahuila, Mexico between 1994 and late 1996.
According to the U.S. Labor Department report cited above, more than 100,000 U.S. workers had lost their jobs directly due to NAFTA by the end of last year. The Economic Policy Institute puts the real number at 600,000.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. Wait a minute. You are talking about changes that took place in the 80s
before Clinton came to office. They happened during the Reagan - so admired by Obama - years. And, as mentioned, above, NAFTA was planned before Clinton took office. He signed it.

This is what I have been questioning: whether the decline in manufacturing activity, the shift to a service-based economy that started in the 70s would have resulted in the same loss of stable, middle class jobs even without NAFTA. And the reality is - and Obama mentioned it in his speech today - that we are part of the global economy, that jobs that were lost are not coming back. The reality is that technology allows us to make the same things at reduced labor force and that cheap labor from China and Indonesia, for example, allows many to purchase clothes and household items.

This is something that I never understood: how can union workers lamenting the loss of their jobs are the first in line to purchase Japanese car imports or shop at Wal-Mart.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
24. It was deliberately deceptive
for Obama to weave the Bush Clinton years together.

That to me was way worse that stepping in the shit about the insincerity of faith.

(And what was the crap about immigration in the same paragraph?

Obama voted for the fence.)
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. It's kind of hard not to...
when you consider that the Clinton Administration covered up the crimes of the Bush Administration..and continued to push the same policies..The crap about Immigration is that people blame immigrants for the loss of their jobs and stagnant wages, rather than as a result of government policies. Every election cycle "immigration" is an issue, but the root causes are not. God, Guns, Gays, and Immigrants. Don't look under the rock.
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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
28. I think that's right.
Bill left office with a very high favorability rating... despite Lewinskygate.

I fail to see how trashing Bill, and exhonerating Ray-gun .... will aid any Democratic candidate in seizing the White House??? That is the part of the Obama campaign that simply boggles my mind.

:wtf:

I am of the belief that, when it comes to winning over Hillary's 50+ female supporters .... Obama's followers are his own worst enemies. They simply don't get it. And there is no reasoning with them.

:shrug:

Sad really. Cuz he could be a great president!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I will ask you as the OP has failed to answer.
What did Bill do differently in Iraq from that of his predecessors? How did his following their path, keeping their same policies get us to where we are today?

Tell me why he maintained those illegal no fly zones that gave GWB a hook into his mission for war?

Tell me why did he give no-bid contracts to Halliburton in Bosnia and Kosovo?

And why did he being the extraordinary renditions, why did he sign the executive order approving them?

Tell me how Bill was so different than GWB or poppy or Reagan?



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susankh4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. Don't you know how to do your own research?
And do you know anything about Bill's economics? How is he different from Ray-gun? Bwahahahaaaa...... you made me spew my coffee. If you can't answer that, sir, you ain't no Democrat in my book.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. I know how to do my own research and I know the answers.
I asked you to answer the questions, not to do my research to do some for yourself, to actually learn something and realize your homage is over the top.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
30. Maybe he should start calling her "Senator Rodham"?
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
35. You mean those years when the income gap widened further,
minority school achievement began to trail off after years of gains, we reached a 1% incarceration rate, and our industrial base continued its flight to warmer climes?

To repudiate Reagan is also to repudiate Clinton. To embrace one is to embrace the other.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-14-08 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
37. I was in middle school during Clinton's first year in office.
I came of age when he was President. Unlike most, I recall it very well. My entire family has been politically astute from a young age.

They were good times.

My vote will most likely be a write-in for HRC.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
40. Personally, I would rather vote for a cactus than vote for Obama.
:shrug:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
45. TELECOM ACT OF '96, BANKING MERGERS, NAFTA, CHINA TRADING POLICY ALL LEAD TO TODAY'S PROBLEMS.
Sometimes it takes years to feel the effects of policies.
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