Again I ask - What happens to the Clinton Campaign in the GE?

[intaglio]

Again and again I have seen supporters of Sen. Clinton say something on the lines of "Obama would be doomed in the GE - Americans will not vote for him,". Well again I must ask those who support Sen. Clinton to tell me how she can escape the following problems without being annihilated in the GE. I view these problems as being so large they might even affect the Congressional races and forfeit Democratic control of House and Senate.

I post these items in no real hopes that any of Sen. Clinton's supporters posting anything substantive in reply (they never have in the past) but rather to raise in the minds of the uncommitted the idea that Sen. Clinton's campaign would be a disaster of the first water for the US and it's allies.

My first two items are well known

1) Hillary has far bigger negatives attached to her candidacy than Obama. This translates as more people actively dislike Sen. Clinton and would never vote for her.

2) Hillary is the candidate the GOP has planned for for the past two years, they know how to challenge her and what to expect from her campaign.


My next points bring into play the manner of her "victory" at the Democratic Convention. Remember that the only way she can win is if the Superdelegates overturn the popular Democratic vote and Obama's larger number of pledged delegates. This would be seen, rightly or wrongly, as the triumph of the dirty machine politics of the past.

3) She would ensure - no matter what Barrack Obama said - that many non-partisan people of colour would either not vote or vote for the opposition. Note I do not say "Democrats" but "non-partisan"

4) She would alienate the young people who Obama has brought into the political process - and they will likely depart. Note I do not say "Democrats" but again mean the non-partisan young adults who, prior to Obama's candidacy, have viewed the political process as being outside their control.

5) Some, if not many, Obama campaign workers would not work for a Clinton Campaign so she would have to set up her own, new, organisation. I do not say they will not vote just that they will feel unable to work for someone they will feel has won unethically.

6) Her "victory" at the Democratic Convention would also lead to the ousting of the successful 50 state strategists in favour of the failed DLC apparatchiks; ie "Goodbye John Dean"

Now we come to specific campaign problems

7) Hillary cannot play her "Experience" card vs McCain, because he has more experience; nor can she raise problems with McCain's age as that tends to play badly for women vs men (I know it is wrong but the attitude exists)

8) Her known "mis-speaking" regarding Bosnia, Northern Ireland, MLK etc, etc would make Sen. Clinton a laughing stock vs McCain.

9) Sen Clinton cannot attack McCain on the grounds of "unsuitability" as she has already praised McCain as a viable presidential choice.

10) There would be constant airplay of past scandals - with the GOP media claiming that it is not biased it just shows how resiliency of Sen. Clinton

11) All of the new scandals about her donors (Hsu and many others) would be raked over and many of the old donor scandals would again receive airtime.

12) Hillary cannot escape her past support of Nafta and Cafta nor can she deny hat her husband and many other of her advisors are still in favour of these deals. In addition her campaign has shown just as many connections to the Columbian free trade initiative

13) The problems that Sen.Clinton has had within her campaign staff, plus her inability to plan beyond her original strategy will raise massive doubts about her claim to be "ready on day one,"

14) Her campaign finance problems will force her onto the defensive with regard to managing the budget of the USA. All the GOP needs to do is to ask "Can you trust her with your tax dollars?"

15) If Healthcare is brought into play then the GOP will just point out the disastrous failure of Hillary's first attempt at such legislation.

16) The GOP will raise questions about (fake) "Constitutional Difficulties" with chance that Bill not Hillary would be the real power in the White House; remember in the last months of the Roosevelt Presidency it has been said that Eleanor was actually in charge.


Although I have said I do not expect any answers to these problems, it would be a pleasant surprise to receive some. There are intelligent Clinton supporters out there and they will need to find answers if the worst comes to the worst and Hillary does receive the nomination.

[leftofcool]

1. Don't worry, Hillary will win the nomination and she will beat McCain

[intaglio]

2. How? or do I hear the sound of 1 cricket chirping

I asked for answers not idiocy

[dkf]

3. She has already tried her best to destroy Obama and it isn't working.

Its only created resentment towards her.

[leftofcool]

5. He's pretty much destroyed himself

[dkf]

6. Yeah sure...

No wonder you think Hillary will win.

[intaglio]

7. If you support Hillary please reply to the OP

or do you admit you have no answer to these problems?

[leftofcool]

8. List some actual problems first

Most of what you have is speculative horseshit.

[intaglio]

9. You admit you have no answers

Just meaningless statements. All of the points I posted are substantiative not speculative

[leftofcool]

10. Like I said, horseshit

"Her known "mis-speaking" regarding Bosnia, Northern Ireland, MLK etc, etc would make Sen. Clinton a laughing stock vs McCain"

She was correct on MLK as it was indeed LBJ who sighed Dr King's dream into law. She was correct on Northern Ireland unless you are also calling a Pulitzer Prize winner a liar. She was not totally incorrect on Bosnia and you would know this if you had been listening to journalists like Dana Priest. Your assumption that Black Dems would not vote for her is incorrect as the Clintons have always been loved by the Black community and will most definitely support her as the nominee. You have one small point about college kids, however, Kerry relied on them too in 2004 and they didn't show up at the polls, so I would be careful on that one. This should be enough to get you started.

[bowens43]

13. That explains why he's winning across the board.

you hillary crusaders are just as delusional as bushes 29 percenters.

[my3boyz]

4. She is not going to win the nomination so we don't have to worry about that. nt

[BzaDem]

11. Alright, I'll give it a try.

I believe that her highest negatives are with people who would turn out and vote Republican regardless of who the opponent is. Furthermore, I think Obama's negatives will be just as high if not higher once Republicans start attacking him in the fall.

I don't buy the "candidate the GOP has planned for the past two years." Ever since Obama won Iowa, they have been planning against him to. He is much easier to swiftboat, since they simply need to bring out facts to define him in a negative light. He is new, so he will be easily defined and it will stick. Clinton is not new. Some people hate her, some people like her, but most have opinions about her and she is not going to be so easily defined. S

In terms of her "victory" at the Democratic Convention, I believe it will not be a problem at all if Clinton wins the popular vote. In that case, I believe the Super-Ds will be saving the day, in a sense vindicating Gore. I know some people will go on and on about how it doesn't exist or whatever, but those people are few and far between outside this borad. It will be seen as democratic.

If she loses the popular vote by any significant margin, I don't see how she could become the nominee nor do I think she should (barring unforseen events).

I don't think her "mis-speaking" regarding Bosnia/etc. will hurt her nearly as much as most people do on this board. It certainly won't hurt her compared to Wright/Bittergate/etc. Obama has said that he wasn't aware of his pastor's more controversial remarks until the controversy broke, and this statement was clearly not true. It will come back to haunt him more than Boznia will hurt her, because the subject matter is much more controversial.

You are right that Clinton can't attack McCain on the grounds of "unsuitability" since that would be a weak attack from any Democratic candidate. We have better uses of our time and resources than trying to paint McCain as unable to be the CIC.

The constant airplay of scandals will not be nearly as damaging for a candidate who everyone knows and has known for the past 16 years. With Obama, all the information is relatively new and it will stick more.

McCain is not going to attack her on supporting Nafta/Cafta/Columbia/etc because he supports them all. He can try to paint her as having changed her position, but there is far less evidence that she was pro Nafta than there is evidence that McCain did a complete 180 on taxes, waterboarding, etc.

Outside of this forum, I really don't think people associate the inside of her campaign with how she will be president, nor do I really think that most people know or believe she has run an awful campaign. Her strategy clearly didn't work like she wanted it to, but I really don't think this means she is unfit, or that voters will see it that way. Same with campaign finance problems.

Hillary will continue to point out that she has learned from her past mistakes. She is going to mop the floor with McCain on Healthcare (McCain essentially has no plan).

As much as some people here hate Bill, many people like Bill. As long as Hillary makes it clear that she is running as her own candidate, Bill will be a net positive.



And overall, Hillary is so much of a better debater than Obama and McCain. She would really demolish McCain at the debate. Watching McCain talk about the economy is like watching a clown fall over. She can talk about the economy coherently, with concrete policy proposals that McCain does not have.

[bowens43]

12. Hillary never would have had a chance in the GE

A hillary ticket is a republican wet dream .That's why republicans have been pushing her as inevitable for the last few years. They know that after the disaster of the bush administration, in order to win 2008 they would need a democratic candidate who couldn't win if she was the only one on the ballot. That's why they chose hillary.