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The POWERFUL ELITE cover up for each other. Clintons have long protected BushInc. Obama WON'T.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 10:43 AM
Original message
The POWERFUL ELITE cover up for each other. Clintons have long protected BushInc. Obama WON'T.
Edited on Tue Apr-15-08 11:11 AM by blm
Obama on accountability for Bush:


http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Barack_on_torture.html

>>>

Tonight I had an opportunity to ask Barack Obama a question that is on the minds of many Americans, yet rarely rises to the surface in the great ruckus of the 2008 presidential race -- and that is whether an Obama administration would seek to prosecute officials of a former Bush administration on the revelations that they greenlighted torture, or for other potential crimes that took place in the White House.


Obama said that as president he would indeed ask his new Attorney General and his deputies to "immediately review the information that's already there" and determine if an inquiry is warranted -- but he also tread carefully on the issue, in line with his reputation for seeking to bridge the partisan divide. He worried that such a probe could be spun as "a partisan witch hunt." However, he said that equation changes if there was willful criminality, because "nobody is above the law."
>>>>>>


At this point, WHETHER YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT, those of you who are supporting Clinton AFTER Obama has laid this accountability card on the table are now supporting the continuing protection of BushInc into the next decade just as Bill did for Poppy Bush throughout the 90s.


http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html




TRUTH MATTERS, Democrats!
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Even though I don't think Obama will throw all of their ass's in jail (what I want) I do think he'll
...be a lot better at serving justice than Hillary who to me is starting to sound more and more like a reThug every day.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I believe he is already aware that the Dem senate WILL start investigations, as
he is being closely advised by Kerry, and Kerry said there will be accountability on this. And Kerry's is the voice most trusted by me, because it was his doogeged work for years that uncovered IranContra, illegal wars in Central America, BCCI and CIA drugrunning.

The shame of OUR party is that a Dem administration in the 90s protected BushInc on all the outstanding matters in those investigations.

Imagine the difference in the world if Clinton had allowed those outsanding matters to be properly aired and resolved for the nation's HISTORIC RECORD?

No Bush2. No 9-11 event and War on Terror. No Iraq war.
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Andy823 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, It's pretty obvious
That if Hillary became president, Bush and gang would be home free, and never have to be held accountable for what they have done. With Obama we at least have a chance that they will be held accountable, which is far better than what Clinton offers!

I wonder if anyone has asked her about what she would do about Bush and gang? Of course we would probably get the old "laugh" and another great job of avoiding the question!:crazy:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Exactly. We have the GREATER chance for accountability with an open government Democrat who
hasn't spent his career covering up for Bushes and the powerful elite already.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. The Clintons have a record of covering up Bush crimes. Obama has
now made it clear he will not follow in Bill Clinton's footsteps and do the same. This story is huge. Those who ignore it and continue to back Hillary cannot complain if she were to become president and swept Bush the Son's crimes under the carpet, just like her husband did.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. There should never have been a Bush2 possible but Bill Clinton's protection of POWERFUL ELITE
made it all possible.

All those yEARS of work by Sen Kerry and Rep. Gonzalez to uncover the many crimes of office of BushInc and its powerful elite cronies and Bill Clinton came along and sided with the secrecy and privilege of the elite over the American people's right to an accurate historic record.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. Absolutely the bitter truth, beachmom.
"Cooking the Insurance Books: A Decade of Lax Regulation Lays the Groundwork for Scandal" by Lucy Komisar (11-17-2004 Corp Watch)
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11657

From the staff of the Ozark Gazette

"Gray Money"
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/gray_money.html

"The Activities at Mena"
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MENA/mena.html

4-28-1992 Congressional Record Entry by Rep. Henry B. Gonzalez (D-TX) Chair of The House Banking Committee
"Kissinger Associates, Scowcroft, Eagleburger, Stoga, Iraq, and BNL" (Federation of American Scientists archive)
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920428g.htm

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Federation of American Scientists is a GREAT site that gets too little attention.
imo.


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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
56. ^
;-)
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wowimthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. Think Clinton would investigate Bush Co? Guess again.
The vast majority of Clinton supporters haven't a clue who they're trying to put in the white house. Maybe some don't care. Maybe some don't know. Still, it is incumbent upon all of us to research the facts before voting. Stop eating out of the palm of the media's hand.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. ..."it is incumbent upon all of us to research the facts before voting...
...Stop eating out of the palm of the media's hand."


EXACTLY right.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. The REAL elite count on the casual attention of the voters so they use demagoguery
like this 'bitter' spin against Obama.

Counting on your audience's lack of intelligence is as ELITE as it gets.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. That was my thought when I posted this...
...yesterday:


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Obama and Kerry...Botched Joke , Take Two

This is JUST how they took Kerry out of 2008 with the 'botched joke.' MSNBC is reporting that Hillary is campaigning today with a "spring in her step", because she knows this is an opening for her to take Obama down. Democrats need to take this VERY seriously.

I am bitter. I am also frustrated and more than a little bit cynical that our politics will improve enough to make the changes that our country needs. But I DO have hope...abd that's because of Obama and Kerry and the Kennedys and the movement that is being built. I am VERY hopeful that we can overcome the politics of 'fear and smear.'

I just heard Hillary on MSNBC saying that Obama needed to 'explain' his remarks. Listening to her reminded me of the day I listened after the joke while she stabbed John Kerry in the back. I wasn't sure it it was on purpose, for political reasons. I now think it definitely was.

So...here's what I would like to hear Barack Obama say:


I DO NOT want him to backtrack or apologize (any more than he already has). I want him to say that people ARE bitter, frustrated and at their wits' end about politics designed to tear the country apart and prevent average (middle-class, working Americans) from having their needs met and their voices heard. I want him to say that he was NOT denigrating their deeply held values of the Second Amendment, religion, etc....or any 'liberal' values (list them) either.

What he WAS saying (as we here know) is that this 'bitterness' and frustration makes us SUSCEPTIBLE to having our values USED against our interests by POLITICIANS. George Bush (with Karl Rove's help) did that to us in 2000 and 2004. They used 'guns, god and gays" to manipulate the system. They used the traditional family values of the religious right for their own selfish political plans. The badly needed and enlightened leadership we needed from Al Gore and John Kerry was denied the country...and look at where we are now! John McCain and Hillary Clinton are using that same brand of politics in 2008. They denied us John Kerry (again) and are aiming at denying us Barack Obama...for their own self interest...over the interest of average, middle-class, working Americans.

To me, that is the very definition of elitist. What Gore and Kerry and Obama stand for is anything BUT. So, American people...a question. What do YOU stand for?

That's what I want to hear Obama say...with all the super delegates (Gore, Kerry, Kennedy, Dodd, Richardson, Carter, etc.) at his side.




>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


The other side USED audience lack of intelligence, values, etc. in order to win. Disgusting.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Exactly - time for the LIARS and SPINNERS to explain THEIR reasons for vbelieving people are stupid
enough to believe them when they aren't telling the truth.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. It is WAY past...
...time for that to happen.:hi:
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
9. Excellent answer by Senator Obama...
...on this question. Thank you for this, blm.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Obama camp needs to make this THE ISSUE of the campaign. TeamClinton has ZERO credibility
on this issue.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. I'm thinking ...
...negative integers, here. :7
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. Now we know why Obama's being repeatedly swiftboated.
As it has been said, the Repubs hate Clinton, but they fear Obama. They don't just fear losing a little bit of face to Obama, they have a very real fear of being prosecuted for their crimes.

They fear Obama so much that they'll get in bed with Clinton, who they hate, to try to unseat him.

If they're desperate enough to do that, they're desperate enough to try even worse shit. :scared:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. And why Clintons worked WITH Bushes to undermine and sabotage Kerry in 2004. Protecting BOTH
administrations' legacies from the longtime open government advocate with the best record in DC uncovering and exposing government corruption - John Kerry.
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jaksavage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
11. Who will protect Obama,
when he attempts to topple the power structure which has run this country for the last 75 years?

He is going to need some phenomenol security, I hope he has it.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Politically, anyway, WE need to protect him by backing him up if he
goes down the more difficult path. LTEs, contacting members of Congress, and on and on. A president with a high approval rating is a very powerful person. As to security, call me naive, but I do not think the good people in the Secret Service will let anything bad happen to President Obama.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. A big chunk of that protection DOES need to come from US. We cannot afford to fail.
.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Obama has some folks in his corner who have had these battles - a few still left standing, anyway.
He and THEY can do this. They are not without some power.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
12. And now we have to connect the dots
When elites are threatened, they will stick together and cross any figment of party lines.

Bill and Hillary's entire road show is based on this shtick of selling neo-liberal snake oil.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Exactly - Read list of BCCI's outstanding matters handed to Bill when he took office and
Edited on Tue Apr-15-08 12:18 PM by blm
it is easy to understand why the POWERFUL ELITE would like to see another Clinton in office to continue the protection.


Start with the Outstanding Matters and questions left on the table in Dec 1992 report:


Matters For Further Investigation

There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:


1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.


2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.


3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.


4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al-Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.


5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.


6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.


7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.


8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.


9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.


10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.


11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.


12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.


13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.


14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.


15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.


16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.


17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.


18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.


19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.


20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.


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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
Obama needs to run with this. The Clintons are all about power and only look out for themselves.


:kick:
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kick and you know Clinton and Bush are cozy
enough when Bill slept at his feet.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yep - the powerful elite even know WHO their masters are - the MORE POWERFULE ELITE.
Clintons and the DLC have become mere supporting players to the BFEE - they are BFEE Lite.
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MBS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. thanks, blm n/t
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It's only the truth. No thanks needed. Just spread the word for open government.
.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R.
:thumbsup:
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
27. kick
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. It takes a Clinton to exonerate a Bush
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Every time Clinton used that pet line "It takes a Clinton to clean up after a Bush"
it was sickening to witness the complete lack of integrity they have.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. EXACTLY. That's why Hillary would rather have McCain than Obama in the...
White House. The Elites would fare much better with McCain there, and that is the top priority for the Clintons: that they and their fellow Elites be able to continue to plunder our country for our jobs and our resources.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Secrecy and privilege of closed government is ESSENTIAL to the powerful elites.
.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-15-08 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
36. I am very happy to read this because the truth does indeed matter.
K&R

:hi:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. And time for YOU to carry the message, as well. We have GOT to beat them down.
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 06:04 PM by blm
This is our last chance.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
57. NOT THIS TIME!!!
:thumbsup:
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
39. nobody's going to get indicted -
bummer too
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. We'll see. Get rid of the Coverup Dems and grow the Open Government Dems' numbers.
THEN we'll get indictments.

It looks like the coverup wing of the party isn't doing so well this election, anyway.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
41. OBAMA is NO SAINT...he's as much part of the SYSTEM as Bill and Hillary and the DLC...
BACK WHEN...they were the NEW FACE of the LOSING DEM PARTY! No Ox can't be Gored in our demise of our Party. Let's get real here......
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. THIS is exactly what you claim you wanted to hear from Obama and now you are proving
that you don't really mean what you say.

You have dug in against Obama and would excuse the DECADES of treachery against Dems by the Clintons just to pretend that he is the same as they are.

Obama isn't best friends with Bushes, KoKo. Obama has those on his side who risked their lives to uncover and EXPOSE BushInc's illegal operations.

If you can't trust that, then you have NOBODY to vote for - or you've been BSing us all along and you really WANT Clintons in to protect BushInc.

So...what's the deal?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. blm...I think both would be a disaster for Dem Party......
So...it's what my own gut tells me...and I have to post my beliefs... After all...it's still a free country on DU...isn't it? And YOU KNOW...I'm a DEM...so it isn't a Freeper/Loyalty thingy with me.

I really do believe we are headed to another Repug Win...Voting Machines and candidates who can be compromised. I am very worried.... Believe me on this... I don't get paid to post or have some agenda...I am who I am...and I'm so worried our Dems have shot themselves in the foot once again...this time over Race and Gender.

I have to post about this. I've been here since "Selection 2000" and I'm as committed as you are...we just ended up with different opinions... :shrug:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. They are nowhere near the same - the day you can show where he protected BushInc even 2% as much
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 06:44 PM by blm
as Clintons have, then I'll concede you have some minute basis to make your conclusion.

Until then.................not.....even....close.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. We don't know yet what he will do...he's a "blank slate."
that's my point...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. He has a record of open government advocacy and he has the TOP open govt advocate in DC
Edited on Wed Apr-16-08 07:03 PM by blm
in his corner.

I trust that a MILLION more times than Clintons.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. blm...I don't support the Clinton's either.....I wish for Gore...I wished for Kucinich...
I'm one of those who don't have a candidate in this race....I don't have to vote, like you, in NC until May 6th. It's very hard...but Hillary's campaign implodes as we watch. But, Obama is just no my candidate, yet.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
43. Keep Dreaming
There's no way Obama will be elected if the power elite believe their grip will be threatened.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Big difference now. Dems no longer have a DNC sitting on their hands while the elections are being
fixed and stolen.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. blm....our Dems have done little in Congress about Election Fraud with Machines...
Be thankful for the DU'ers who managed to get most of the DRE's out of NC with law about Audited machines that exist and handcounts. Our DU'er "Who Counts the Votes" won an award from the ACLU for her efforts and those who supported her to get bill through NC Legislature. But, CONGRESS has yet to act ...even though they PROMISED US...they would..if we voted them in in '06.

So...you can understand why I'm somewhat mistrustful of what will happen nationally. And, I wouldn't answer you if I didn't respect your opinion...and I hope that your answering "me" means you are trying to understand what I'm saying....whether you agree or not...that you are open to listening to a fellow DU'er whose been in the trenches with YOU all these years...all these years....

Maybe we could write a book together. :D
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. I do - and that's why I don't sugarcoat with you - I am straight up an anti-corruption,
open government Democrat and have no doubt that EVERY OTHER ISSUE no matter what depends on open government.

I have never said that Obama was great on this - but he is greater by leaps and bounds than Clintons.

Clintons have PROVEN they will protect BushInc at OUR EXPENSE. You think going with PROVEN protectors of the powerful elite is acceptable?

You can't name ANy Dem who have protected BushInc more than Clintons have, and that includes Lieberman.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I don't support the Clintons...n/t
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. That's my worry...Obama is not electable..and we will end up with McCain...machines and
when the RW gets done with him...another Election down the tubes.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-16-08 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
52. Rethinking, rethinking...
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. From a good Dem like you, I will consider that a great compliment. ;)
.
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