American Hunters and Shooters Association Backs Obama-He "gets it"

[babylonsister]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ray-schoenke/hunters-and-shooters-supp_b_97028.html

Hunters and Shooters support Obama: He "gets it"
Ray Schoenke

Posted April 16, 2008 | 02:28 PM (EST)


Today, as President of the American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA), I announced our endorsement of Senator Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination for President of the United States. Because the gun issue has recently become a factor in the Democratic primary in Pennsylvania, I want to share the remarks I made today:

As a gun rights organization we have not come to this decision lightly. We were formed two years ago because our research shows that millions of gun owners wanted a change. They not only wanted an organization that would protect their gun rights but an organization that was also committed to the protection of their communities as well as the protection of our lands.

We reached out to the Obama campaign several weeks ago to offer our support and approval as was reported by Paul Bedard of US News and World Report.

We believe recent attacks on Senator Obama's stand on the 2nd Amendment and his commitment to our hunting and shooting heritage are unfair and American Hunters and Shooters Association is stepping up to set the record straight.

Senator Obama has clearly demonstrated his commitment to the 2nd Amendment by his vote in support of the Vitter amendment to HR 5441, the Department of Homeland Security Appropriations bill of 2007. This amendment prevents the Government from confiscating guns in a time of crisis or emergency.

Imagine how the citizens felt during Hurricane Katrina when government agents kicked in doors to confiscate law abiding citizens' guns at a time when they needed them the most. We know Senator Obama "gets it." To say that he is an elitist is patently ridiculous.

To hunters and shooters everywhere, Senator Obama's vote demonstrated a fundamental understanding of the meaning of the 2nd Amendment which means he recognizes the individual right of all citizens to keep and bear arms. Senator Clinton, on the hand, failed to grasp the importance of this critical issue to hunters and shooters and voted against this Amendment. She turned her back on America's gun owners.

In addition, Senator Obama's commitment to conservation and protection of our natural resources and access to public lands demonstrates to us his commitment to America's hunting and shooting heritage.

Senator Obama will be a strong and authentic voice for America's hunters and shooters and it is with great pleasure that we endorse his candidacy.

[slackmaster]

1. AHSA = front group for gun control advocacy organizations

They are known as "Fudds" among politically astute gun owners who advocate the right to keep and bear arms.

[Yael]

5. So will this be a good thing or a bad thing to gun-totin' PA people?

[slackmaster]

8. It's the equivalent of Senator Kerry tromping around in his cammies with his Benelli shotgun

Nobody is going to be convinced that Senator Obama really gives a rat's ass about their right to own a gun.

[Yael]

12. Gotcha.

Thanks!

[blm]

18. Kerry hunted for 50 years and is an EXPERT MARKSMAN. Those who pretended otherwise probably

couldn't outshoot Kerry on their best day.

Why don't you bother noticing the REAL REASON the corpmedia stuck with their LIES about Kerry that YOU apparently bought......

JUNE 2003:


Kerry Seeks to Reverse FCC's "Wrongheaded Vote"
Commission decision may violate laws protecting small businesses; Kerry to file Resolution of Disapproval

Washington, DC - Senator John Kerry today announced plans to file a "Resolution of Disapproval" as a means to overturn today's decision by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) to raise media ownership caps and loosen various media cross-ownership rules.

Kerry will soon introduce the resolution seeking to reverse this action under the Congressional Review Act and Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act on the grounds that the decision may violate the laws intended to protect America's small businesses and allow them an opportunity to compete.

As Ranking Member of the Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, Kerry expressed concern that the FCC's decision will hurt localism, reduce diversity, and will allow media monopolies to flourish. This raises significant concerns about the potential negative impacts the decision will have on small businesses and their ability to compete in today's media marketplace.

In a statement released earlier today regarding the FCC's decision, Kerry said:

"Nothing is more important in a democracy than public access to debates and information, which lift up our discourse and give Americans an opportunity to make honest informed choices. Today's wrongheaded vote by the Republican members of the FCC to loosen media ownership rules shows a dangerous indifference to the consolidation of power in the hands of a few large entities rather than promoting diversity and independence at the local level. The FCC should do more than rubber stamp the business plans of narrow economic interests.

"Today's vote is a complete dereliction of duty. The Commissioners are well aware that these rules greatly influence the competitive structure of the industry and protect the public's access to multiple sources of information and media. It is the Commission's responsibility to ensure that the rules serve our national goals of diversity, competition, and localism in media. With today's vote, they shirked that responsibility and have dismissed any serious discussion about the impact of media consolidation on our own democracy."

[slackmaster]

25. His hunting "photo ops" were obviously staged

He wasn't really out hunting at the time.

[blm]

26. Yes he was. The media targets the gullible.

Whether you realize it or not.

[slackmaster]

27. Perception is what really matters

My flannel shirt-wearing, duck-hunting relatives in Iowa considered Kerry to be a phony in that regard, whether they were right or wrong.

[blm]

28. Because they are constantly lied to. Had the media told the truth, they'd SEE it differently.

And if YOU cared to FURTHER the truth instead of validating the lies used by the corpmedia as a TACTIC to preserve the favorable rulings they expected in Bush's second term, then maybe your COUSINS would be enlightened by now out of respect for the FACTS.

[slackmaster]

29. It's not my fault that Kerry made all the strategic blunders he did

:shrug:

[blm]

30. You either support truth or you support the lies. No matter how you'd like to deflect.

And anyone who believed Bush would be better for this country after watching the debates is a pisspoor judge of character and leadership.

[slackmaster]

31. Kerry could have done a better job of presenting his case

:shrug:

[blm]

33. He did - and had Terry McAuliffe's DNC secured the election process after 2000s

rampant election fraud, Kerry would be running for re-election right now.

BTW - did you ever notice that most of the big name Dems were actually PUBLICLY supporting Bush's decisions on terrorism and Iraq war instead of publicly siding with Kerry's criticisms of Bush's decisions on these two biggest issues of that election?

You think that wasn't all about Hillary2008?
http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354


No Dem nominee ever had the last Dem president out defending the gOP president against the very points the Dem nominee was attacking in his campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

Carville sabotaged Ohio Dem voters for......who?
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

[slackmaster]

35. He did a better job of presenting his case than he did of presenting his case?

:dunce:

[blm]

37. He presented a case that won. And had the election process been secured, he'd be in the WH

today.

I also mentioned that there was NO DEM PARTY PUSH for Kerry in the daily battles - many wellknown Dems were actually consistently supporting Bush on terrorism and Iraq war decisions that the Dem nominee was holding up for attack - ever see GOPs do that against their nominee?

[Paladin]

88. Tell Us, Gun Boys: Have We Done Enough Penance Yet?

John Kerry goes on a goose hunt that doesn't meet with your aesthetic sensibilities, and the entire gun rights movement (the DU Gun Dungeon contingent very much included) goes into full, hysterical Swiftboating mode, trashing Kerry unmercifully, doing its part to ensure that we have another four years of George W. Bush, that heroic defender of the Bill of Rights. Thanks a whole fucking bunch to all of you from a grateful nation.

Any of you gun obsessives who truly believe that John Kerry or any other Democratic president would deprive you of your precious firearms, probably isn't exhibiting enough intelligence to own guns in the first place.

Looking forward to the usual "It's All The Democrats'Fault" responses.....

[benEzra]

41. Bad Thing.

The AHSA was founded by gun-control lobbyists, and supports banning many of the most popular civilian target rifles in the United States, along with a lot of other unpopular crap. I would say that a majority of gun owners see AHSA as a front for the gun-control lobby and for a small minority of country-club-repub types who like their $5000 skeet shotguns, but don't want us peons to have their $250 SKS's or $1000 AR's.

[nebula]

7. They advocate the banning of assault weapons

which have no value in hunting.

Unless you're a gang member or a criminal, how could that be a bad thing?

[Yael]

11. I have no use for a gun -- I get my food at the grocery store.

From what I am hearing from the noooze people, everyone here has to get a gun before they are allowed a driver's license or something.

They are making this state to sound like the second coming of Deliverance.

[slackmaster]

13. As a collector of historic firearms I have a personal stake in the banning of "assault weapons"

For example, bill HR 1022 would automatically reclassify any semiautomatic firearm that was originally designed for military use as an "assault weapon", unless the BATFE made a special determination that it had a sporting purpose. The bill would also make it illegal to transfer an "assault weapon" to anyone other than a specially licensed dealer (very similar to California's AW ban, except much broader.)

I own two M1 Garand rifles and an M1 Carbine from World War II. Their combined value is significant. HR 1022 would effectively reduce their value to zero, without any provision to compensate people like me for loss of value (other than perhaps a tax writeoff if I destroy them first).

Other weapons that HR 1022 would stigmatize as AWs some very popular sporting rifles, including the Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30. Those were specifically exempted from the now-expired federal AW ban, and have always been legal even in California. I own one of each, plus several other curio and relic rifles that would become AWs.

The federal AW ban produced no measurable improvement in public safety.

which have no value in hunting.

Unless you're a gang member or a criminal, how could that be a bad thing?

Not true!

The most popular rifle now used in target matches is the AR-15, which would also become an AW under HR 1022. The AR-15 is also becoming one of the most popular hunting rifles (state laws often have magazine capacity restrictions, and you can get 5-rounders for the AR-15 and others). Oh, and I do own a few AR-15s as well. :-)

[nebula]

17. 'Assault weapons collector'

is that the euphemism for it these days?

So now any nut-case can walk into gun store or gun show and buy a AK-47 by simply identifying themselves as a 'collector.'

What if you consider yourself to be a 'collector of grenade launchers' should you be able to buy one of those too?

Some of you gun-crazed people are just plain goofy.

[apocalypsehow]

20. Yeah, and just try asking one of our "pro-gun Democrats" if they will unequivocally commit to

voting for the Democratic nominee for president. All you'll get is obfuscation and static.

[slackmaster]

23. I am not a single-issue voter and will have to hold my nose on gun issues when I vote in November

I voted for Obama in the California primary BTW.

[derby378]

34. We'll commit to electing as many pro-RKBA Democrats to the House and Senate as we can

Then, when Obama or Clinton tries to pass anti-Second Amendment legislation, maybe we'll have enough Democrats in Congress to deflect our legislation and shift the focus back to Social Security, education, health care, etc.

[slackmaster]

22. No. Please allow me to educate you a little.

So now any nut-case can walk into gun store or gun show and buy a AK-47 by simply identifying themselves as a 'collector.'

No. A real AK-47 is strictly regulated as a "machinegun" under the National Firearms Act of 1934, so there is a whole bunch of paperwork, a federal background check, and a $200 transfer fee if your state allows it. There are no "cash and carry" transfers for any kind of NFA-regulated item.

A semiautomatic AK-pattern rifle is not going to qualify as a curio or relic, so my license would be of no use in buying one if I were so inclined. My license allows me to acquire and dispose of curios and relics through interstate commerce, only for the purpose of maintaining a collection as a hobby.

What if you consider yourself to be a 'collector of grenade launchers' should you be able to buy one of those too?

Grenade launchers are regulated under the National Firearms Act as "destructive devices", and subject to the same kind of transfer restrictions as machineguns. My FFL gives me no special privileges related to NFA items. There are people who have real grenade launchers in their collections, but without live grenades (the sale of which is very strictly regulated), they are really just hollow tubes. (The transfer tax on live, exploding grenades is $200 per round BTW.)

Here is a Vietnam War-era M79 "Blooper". It's basically a large-bore, single-shot shotgun. Nice piece to own if you can afford one.



Some of you gun-crazed people are just plain goofy.

I can live with you considering me goofy. At least I'm not ignorant about current gun laws like you are. The collector's FFL has been available since 1968 when the Gun Control Act took effect, and you evidently had no clue about it until today.

One more small point - Anyone who has been lawfully adjudicated as mentally incompetent can't legally buy or possess any kind of firearm, in case that's what you meant by "any nut-case".

[nebula]

39. Anyone that proudly describes themself

as an 'assault weapons collector'(WTF is that??) is almost guaranteed to have one or more screws loose. And therefore shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a firearm, much less a god damn assault weapon.

[benEzra]

44. How about "small-caliber civilian rifles with modern styling" instead?

Look past the frame. You've been spun by the loaded term.

[slackmaster]

45. I have been collecting firearms for more than 20 years, and never heard that term until this thread

The term "assault weapon" is a concocted gun-grabber talking point that has no formal technical definition. The states that have AW laws use a variety of partially overlapping definitions for the term, and none of the present state laws define it exactly the same way the expired federal law did. It's political weasel-speak intended to create an emotional reaction in people who don't know much about firearms.

Collectors and other people who like firearms usually use standard terms like "rifle", "pistol", "shotgun", etc. I describe myself as a collector of curio and relic firearms (just like my DU profile says). That's what my Federal Firearms License says, and if you look at the contents of my gun safe you will see that nearly every firearm I own was made before or during World War II - Mostly bolt-action rifles.

The term "assault rifle" generally means a selective-fire long gun that fires a medium-power cartridge, e.g. the US M16 rifle or a real AK-47. That is a widely accepted term among knowledgable people. "Assault weapon" is not.

...'assault weapons collector'(WTF is that??)...

I suspect it's something you just pulled out of your ass to create some kind of straw man that you could proceed to whack at with a stick. Got a reference to back it up and prove me wrong?

BTW I just did a Google search for "assault weapons collector" and it returned only seven hits out of hundreds of millions of pages on the World Wide Web. Guess what the first one is...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5533023&mesg_id=5533023

:rofl:

[nebula]

46. Another avid firearms 'collector'

your colleague, Seung-Hui Cho



This 'collector' had a long history of mental problems, including being diagnosed with schizophrenia, was able to purchase an arsenal of handguns and hollow-point ammunition through a federally licensed gun dealer, the same weapons he later used at Virginia Tech, the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history. This certified nutcase walks into a gunstore, walks out with an arsenal of weapons, and morans like yourself think there should be LESS gun control? You really ought to have your head examined.

[slackmaster]

51. Wow, guilt by association, and about as weak as you could possibly come up with

Here's where I keep mine.



This 'collector' had a long history of mental problems, including being diagnosed with schizophrenia, was able to purchase an arsenal of handguns and hollow-point ammunition through a federally licensed gun dealer, the same weapons he later used at Virginia Tech, the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history. This certified nutcase walks into a gunstore, walks out with an arsenal of weapons, and morans like yourself think there should be LESS gun control? You really ought to have your head examined.

I will just let your post stand for the record so people can see your complete lack of civility, logic, or reason.

BTW where have I ever said I think there should be less gun control?

[nebula]

54. You believe in giving any nutjob easy access to high-powered firearms

and somehow I'm the uncivil one??

Whatever you're smoking, keep it to yourself.

[slackmaster]

55. Where did I ever say anything resembling what you are accusing me of?

This should be good. Keep on pulling things out of your ass, nebula.

[nebula]

57. Do you work for the firearms industry?

I could see why you would be against any form of gun control.

[slackmaster]

58. No, and where did I ever say I was "against any form of gun control"?

Cite, or retract and APOLOGIZE like an adult.

My vested interest in firearms is clearly stated in my profile, and I have discussed it and my specific opinions about gun control openly here and many other times on DU.

[nebula]

61. Your idea of 'gun control'

is to let the gun lobby define for themselves what 'gun control' is,
and pass legislation accordingly.

:rofl:

[slackmaster]

62. Cite where I said that, or retract your defamatory statement and apologize like an adult

:hi:

That little star by your name means you have access to Search. Use it.

ETA I have spelled out very specific positions on gun control issues innumerable times on DU. Surely you can do better than this.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

80. Why the attack?

That representation is unfair.

It is also mean and you have zero clue what you are talking about.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

70. Thanks....

I didn't know any of this and found your post educational and insightful. I also thought you reacted to an attack in an adult and non insulting manner.

I do not consider you to be a "nut-case."

In fact, I tire of the constant name calling and accusations within the DU. It is as if people can not wait to jump all over anyone who may have even a slightly different view. I am not a gun collector but we have 2 firearms we keep... which is our Constitutional right. I have logical reasons for keeping these weapons which have trigger locks and the ammo is stored in a locked box separate from the guns - In other words an accidental shooting, with these guns, is impossible.

I have no interest in collecting firearms but I can certainly understand someone else's desire to do so. I only wish that all people who consider themselves to be "collectors" were as educated, level-headed and careful as you have presented yourself.

:hi:

[slackmaster]

73. Say hi to Mary Ann and the Professor for me, little buddy!

:grouphug:

[Two Americas]

84. yes

What if you consider yourself to be a 'collector of grenade launchers' should you be able to buy one of those too?

Yes.

Private parties own all sorts of weapons, and some private parties even manufacture them and sell them to governments.

Where you store and how you use a weapon can be legislated, but possession laws of any kind are always a threat to the 4th and 5th amendments to the Constitution.

I am not and have never been an owner of firearms, and I resent your statement that "some of you gun-crazed people are just plain goofy."

[Yukari Yakumo]

Because you may want something in case BlackWater comes after you. {nt}

uguu

[derby378]

32. What's an assault weapon?

Not being flippant; I really want to you to explain to me what you think an "assault weapon" is.

[nebula]

52. An assault weapon is one that is designed primarily

TO KILL HUMAN BEINGS


DUUHHH.

[slackmaster]

65. Which would obviously include most types of swords and many other edged and blunt weapons

:hi:

[derby378]

92. nebula, consider yourself pwn3d

Sorry, dude, but you only have yourself to blame...

[benEzra]

43. They advocate for the banning of the MOST POPULAR TARGET RIFLES IN AMERICA, you mean...

and 4 out of 5 U.S. gun owners are nonhunters who own guns for RECREATIONAL TARGET SHOOTING and defensive purposes.

Small-caliber rifles with modern styling ("assault weapons") DOMINATE centerfire target shooting in this country, and more people own "assault weapons" as defined by H.R.1022 than hunt.



Gang members and criminals don't generally use rifles, BTW. Twice as many people are murdered using shoes and bare hands.

2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

[nebula]

48. Nutcases across America thank you for your support

[derby378]

49. Funny, I don't see any "assault weapons" in that picture

Care to clarify, or are you just blowing off steam?

[nebula]

50. Any weapon that is designed to KILL human beings is an assault weapon

Do you purhase a Glock 19 or a .38 Special to go deer hunting??





In case you didn't know, a high-power Glock handgun, as used by the Virginia Tech shooter,
will kill you just as dead as an M16. A Glock also has the lethal advantage of being easily concealed.

[slackmaster]

53. I take it you would ban Samurai swords too

:eyes:

Your definition of "assault weapon" is a little, well, nebulous.

[nebula]

59. Any FIREAM designed primarily to kill human beings is an asault weapon

so now a gun is the same thing as a Samurai sword?

Boy, you take idiocy to a new level.

[slackmaster]

60. Did you read your own Subject line in reply #50?

"Any weapon that is designed to KILL human beings is an assault weapon"

so now a gun is the same thing as a Samurai sword?

They are both designed to be deadly weapons, are they not?

Boy, you take idiocy to a new level.

Do you know how to carry on a civil conversation?

[benEzra]

71. Oops, double post (n/t)

[benEzra]

72. Here's a .735 caliber firearm designed SOLELY to kill human beings...

.735 caliber British Land Pattern musket...

And how do you feel about this gun?


Winchester Model 70

That's a deer rifle (Winchester Model 70). It's also the rifle that Carlos Hathcock used to kill ~300 people (98 confirmed) as a Marine sniper in Vietnam. Hathcock's rifle fired the #1 deer cartridge in the United States, .30-06 Springfield, which was originally designed to kill people at extreme range.



These .223-caliber guns, by contrast, are designed expressly to shoot prairie dogs and coyotes.


Remington R-15 hunting rifle


Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z89nJ5zA4bI


Rock River Arms Varmint rifle



And guns designed primarily to punch holes in distant pieces of paper...


Springfield M1A National Match


AR-15 target model


Hammerli (European semiautomatic competition pistol)

[nebula]

79. Uhhh, hello??

Are you living in the 17th century, or the 21st?

99% of these killings are carried out using MODERN assault style weapons such as Ak-7s, Glock cartridge-loaded, rapid-fire handguns. No one is using a Winchester 70 or a damn musket to kill people these days, for Godsake. Don't be a raving idiot.

[slackmaster]

81. Making up fake statistics on the fly will not serve you well in this discussion

Your guess is so far off it's obvious you haven't done any research at all.

Start by reading reply #66.

Then read this: http://www.soci.niu.edu/~critcrim/guns/gunsused.txt

To summarize, the most popular guns for crime use are small-caliber revolvers. Next comes small caliber (i.e. 22 and 25-caliber) cheap semiautomatics. Expensive, reliable handguns are not nearly as common in crime as are cheap ones. Rifles of all kinds are WAY down the list.

[nebula]

87. Uhh, when was the last time anyone used

a musket or a winchester in a mass killing??

50 years ago? a 100 years?

Your argument is absurd.

[slackmaster]

96. Your reply us unresponsive to what I wrote

Which was a response to your phony claim (and personal attack):

99% of these killings are carried out using MODERN assault style weapons such as Ak-7s, Glock cartridge-loaded, rapid-fire handguns.... ...Don't be a raving idiot.

:hi:

[benEzra]

90. Ah, but it met your definition, such as it was, of "assault weapon."

Are you living in the 17th century, or the 21st?

Umm, did you mean to say the "18th" century?

The thing is, the musket DID meet your "definition" of an assault weapon, which demonstrates that your definition, such as it was, was ludicrous.

99% of these killings are carried out using MODERN assault style weapons such as Ak-7s, Glock cartridge-loaded, rapid-fire handguns.

FWIW, your claim that 99% of killings are carried out by "MODERN assault style weapons" such as "Ak-7s" is demonstrably false; only 68% of murders involve any gun whatsoever, and of gun murders, 97.09% involve guns OTHER THAN rifles of any type, according to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. (We are discussing bans on "assault weapons" here, which are almost exclusively small-caliber rifles.) In 2006, 2.91% of murders were recorded as involving any type of rifle. We do have some data that sheds light on what kinds of rifles may have been involved. The data:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/2000/generalfindings

Table 4: Top Ten Long Guns by Type and Caliber/Gauge
by Age Group of Possessor

Long Gun Type and Caliber - All Ages

Shotgun 12 GA...........6,854...............35.5%
Rifle .22...............4,076...............21.1%
Rifle 7.62mm............1,729................9.0%
Shotgun 20 GA...........1,277................6.6%
Rifle .30-30..............616................3.2%
Shotgun .410 GA...........615................3.2%
Rifle .223................599................3.1%
Rifle 9mm.................412................2.1%
Rifle .30-06..............410................2.1%
Shotgun 16 GA.............409................2.1%
Top Ten Long Guns......16,997...............88.0%
All Long Guns..........19,311..............100.0%

This is BATFE firearm trace data, via the Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Survey; trace data is imperfect, but generally errs on the side of overstating "assault weapon" involvement due to Von Restoff bias, so we're helping you out here. The #1 long gun traced was the traditional hunting-style 12-gauge shotgun (usually pump-action or side by side a la Columbine, and often illegally sawed off)--and are not considered "assault weapons." The most commonly traced rifle was the lowly .22 rimfire squirrel rifle, not any sort of "assault weapon."

The YCGIS data lumps all 7.62mm (.30 caliber) rifles together, so that category includes your Winchester Model 70 and all other .30 caliber hunting rifles, plus the SKS (not considered an "assault weapon" even in California, but would be Federally under H.R.1022), civilian AK lookalikes, and so on. .30-30 Winchester is exclusively a hunting caliber--there are no .30-30 "assault weapons". The first nearly pure "assault weapon" caliber in the list is .223--which accounted for only 3.1% of long guns traced.

No one is using a Winchester 70 or a damn musket to kill people these days, for Godsake.

Actually, you'd be wrong. Look back at the YCGIS data again, and compare the .30-30 category to the .223 category. The .30-30 is a late 1800's vintage hunting cartridge that is chambered almost exclusively in cowboy-style lever-action carbines. .223 is a small-caliber round used for the AR-15, Ruger mini-14, Kel-Tec SU-16, some Galils, and some civilian AK's. Compare the numbers; 1800's style .30-30 deer rifles, 3.2% of long gun traces; .223 "assault weapons," 3.1% of long gun traces.

That means, lest you miss the point, that more .30-30 caliber Winchester deer rifles alone were traced than all .223 AR-15's, Ruger mini-14's, Kel-Tec SU-16's, Galils, SAR-3's, and every other .223 "assault weapon" COMBINED.

That swooshing sound you hear is your hypothesis of "all rifle homicides are assault weapon homicides" going down the toilet.

Don't be a raving idiot.

Oh, I'm not.

Just for kicks, let's go back and run the YCGIS numbers against the rifle totals. All rifles accounted for 54.7% of traces. Nearly all "assault weapons" fall into the 7.62mm, .223, or 9mm categories--and let's help you out and pretend that all 7.62mm rifles are "assault weapons," which they're not. Now, together, those categories account for only 14.2% of traces, or 26% of the rifle total. Now, for a first approximation, let's assume that the trace breakdown is a fairly close approximation of the actual use of "assault weapons" in homicides. What percentage of murders would that be? It would be 26% of 2.91%, or 0.76% of homicides. Three quarters of one percent of homicides would be expected to involve rifles classified as "assault weapons."

Rifles aren't a crime problem in the United States and never have been. "Assault weapons" are even less of a problem.

[derby378]

78. Thank you for invalidating Josh Sugarmann's favorite buzzphrase

That makes our job that much easier.

[benEzra]

66. And he didn't use "assault weapons"...

just an ordinary 9mm pistol with an ordinary 15-round magazine (not high-capacity G18 magazines as was initially, and wrongly, reported) and a low-capacity .22 rimfire target pistol--and the Federal background check would have denied him those, had Virginia put his records in the system. It might have also barred said loser from his prior law-enforcement job at a correctional facility.

The Virginia Tech loser you posted the picture of (as he would have liked, no doubt) has exactly zilch to do with the advisability of banning the most popular civilian rifles in America, particularly given the fact that rifles as a class are the least misused of all firearms, and aren't any more likely to be used in "nutcase" shootings than anything else.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

"We have to ban small-caliber rifles because, ah, some loser murdered 31 people with a pistol" is a non sequitur. That's the same type of logic that says "We have to wiretap American citizens in the United States without search warrants because, ah, some non citizens from outside the United States killed 3000 people."

And Karl Rove thanks you for your support, for trying to revive the "Dems'll-take-yer-guns" meme. Howard Dean's 50-State Strategy managed to get gun bans off the table for ONE election (2006), pro-gun Dems turned the Senate blue, and yet you want to go back to the 1994-2004 paradigm.

You want to help the mentally ill? Stop trying to outlaw people's guns, and get some progressives in office that will restore decent mental health care to this country.

[GrandmaJones7]

94. AHSA is the same as the anti-choice nuts who "pretend" to offer

legitimate medical services, but in reality, simply try to scare the living shit out of frightened, desperate women who may be considering terminating a pregnancy.

ALL the leaders of AHSA are experienced lobbyist who consistently sought to BAN ALL GUNS until (like magic) they form AHSA as a "wedge group" to accomplish their goal.

Their tactic is simple: divide an conquer.

Obama has NOT received and endorsement from ANY pro-gun group. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

[cui bono]

2. Interesting... I wonder how many more endorsements he'll get before the PA primary?

Seems that people are getting off the fence lately in his favor. I think the majority of the people are ready for the primary to be over.

But wait.... did he forget that Hillary's grandfather taught her how to shoot a gun when she was a child??? :shrug:

[quantass]

3. THANK YOU!

[quantass]

40. .

[DesertFlower]

4. thanks for letting us know. nt

[sunonmars]

6. Well, Pro gun my ass, read this

Obama supporters will say Barack Obama is pro-gun. He’s not. Even back in 1996 he stated he was for the banning all handguns, he denied having stated that position and now has been caught lying about it due to his own hand-written notes. However, today, he’ll try and say he is all for the 2nd Amendment and point to this faux endorsement by a marketing ploy of a “pro-gun” group called American Hunters and Shooters Association.

Here are the facts:

American Hunters And Shooters Association

www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=232&issue=011

AHSA would be more correctly called the “American Association for the Protection of Anti-Gun Politicians.” No gun owner or sportsman should fall prey to its carefully crafted lies and deceptions.

Well guess who they have been donating to in Massachussets? Yes, you guessed it. Kerry and Kennedy.

AHSA is actually an anti-gun movement pretending to be a pro-gun movement that certain politicians use to beef up their pro-gun credentials.

AHSA is run by what appears to be the DCS Group, but we’ll just point out that the senior two advisors there are its president, Gerry Kavanaugh (Ted Kennedy’s Chief of Staff), and David Bonior.

Also note the following about the Board members (doesn’t sound like a real pro-gun group does it?):

Robert Ricker (Executive Director, AHSA)
• Paid witness against the firearms industry for cases where plaintiffs attempted to hold gun manufacturers liable for the criminal misuse of their products by third parties.
• Monthly salary of $3000; AHSA claims no more than 150 members who pay $25 dues. The rest of the money comes from “individual contributions” with the largest contributors on the AHSA board of directors.
• Paid an hourly fee of $225 to $250 dollars for testimony, depositions, and meetings with the Brady Campaign.
• Consults for the Educational Fund to End Handgun Violence (the “educational” arm of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence).

(lobbying for additional restrictions on law abiding gun owners).

Ray Schoenke (President, AHSA)
• Mr. Schoenke, his wife, his daughter and son have been generous donors of anti-gun candidates including: Al Gore, Barbara Boxer, Bill Clinton, Dianne Feinstein, Ted Kennedy, Carolyn McCarthy and John Kerry.
• Mr. Schoenke and his wife donated $10,000 to Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI) in 2000.
• Mr. Schoenke’s daughter and son each contributed $5000 to HCI in 2000.

John Rosenthal (President, AHSA Foundation)
• Rosenthal is the leader of Stop Handgun Violence, the principal anti-gun group in the state of Massachusetts (credited with being the “political force behind the strict gun control laws of Massachusetts”)
• Rosenthal is a former member of the HCI board of directors, now known as the Brady Campaign.
• Rosenthal has most recently focused his energy on voicing opposition to firearms’ advertisements during sporting events

Jody Powell (Co-Chairman, AHSA Advisory Board)
• Press Secretary for one of the most anti-gun U.S. administrations, President Jimmy Carter.

Joe Vince (Board Member, AHSA)
• Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) architect of the Clinton-Gore regulatory assault on the Second Amendment.
• His company Crime Gun Solutions (CGS) employs a number of other ex-ATF officials including Gerard Nunziato, who told the Houston Chronicle that “If it wasn’t for criminals, there wouldn’t be a gun industry in this country.”
• Crime Gun Solutions provides consulting services for the lawyers at the Brady Campaign, frequently appearing as paid expert witnesses in lawsuits against the firearms industry.

[jody]

9. AHSA is with the Scary Brady Bunch. This endorsement supports the perception BO is a gun-grabber.

[GrandmaJones7]

93. AHSA is the same as the anti-choice nuts who "pretend" to offer

legitimate medical services, but in reality, simply try to scare the living shit out of frightened, desperate women who may be considering terminating a pregnancy.

ALL the leaders of AHSA are experienced lobbyist who consistently sought to BAN ALL GUNS until (like magic) they form AHSA as a "wedge group" to accomplish their goal.

Their tactic is simple: divide an conquer.

Obama has NOT received and endorsement from ANY pro-gun group. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

[SoFlaJet]

10. Ain't THIS endorsement a kick in the ass Sis?

I guess it just goes to show her camp that people can easily see right through phony people. Unfortunately for the CC, they think we're all a bunch of fucking idiots. Again, they're using 1992 (when not many had computers) rules to run an Internets savvy election in 2008.

[babylonsister]

15. It did make me smile; I think 'ricochet' applies here. nt

[FrenchieCat]

24. Ricochet is more appropriate than Boomerang.......

although both are accurate. :)

[mtnsnake]

14. That's something to be really proud of (snicker)

Getting endorsed by the famous AHSA is just tops.

[babylonsister]

16. I'll just bet your gal would have delighted in their endorsement.

As I stated above, the word ricochet comes to mind. :smoke:

[mtnsnake]

19. It's not her fault that she can shoot a fly off the top of a man's head at 500 yards

while looking backwards through a mirror and blindfolded at the same time :smoke:

[babylonsister]

21. Snort!

:rofl:

[doc03]

36. Never heard of them!

[derby378]

38. A Democrat endorsed by AHSA is like a chicken endorsed by Colonel Sanders

:rofl:

[not_too_L8]

42. K&R

[rinsd]

47. So a newly formed advocacy group with little clout endorses Obama.

The leaders of the AHSA are:<8>:

* Ray Schoenke, founding president <9> A former football player for the Washington Redskins, Schoenke ran for Governor of Maryland as a Democrat and has given "millions" to Democratic politicians and causes according to a January 19, 1998 Washington Post article.<10> Among the groups that Schoenke has donated to are two that actively lobby to ban firearms: Handgun Control, Inc.<11><12> and America Coming Together. Schoenke was on the Governor's Commission on Gun Violence in 1996.
* Bob Ricker, executive director <13>
* Joseph J. Vince, Jr., a member of the Board of Directors is the former chief of the BATF's crime guns analysis branch. Currently, he is a principal of Crime Gun Solutions. HCI has hired Crime Gun Solutions in order to support numerous gun control laws,<14><15> to support HCI's lawsuits against firearm dealers<16> and he was a signer on a letter submitted to Congress opposing the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act<17>
* Jody Powell, co-chairman of the AHSA Advisory Board
* A. Austin Dorr, co-chairman of the AHSA Advisory Board

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Hunters_and_Shooters_Association

This seems to be a rich guy pol with some of his friends.

Not exactly a force to reckoned with.

[Bonobo]

89. Waaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

[Major Hogwash]

56. This is great!

Because Obama is much more qualified to lead on this issue than McCain is.

[KSinTX]

63. If you're Dem & believe in individual 2d amendment right to bear, Obama's better

The Amendment referenced above was the Post-Katrina bill introduced by Vitters after NO law enforcement was caught on tape confiscating citizen's weapons.

Here's the text of Vitter Amdendment No. 4615, which was voted on in the U.S. Senate at 6:13 PM on July 13, 2006, and was passed and signed by President, Became Public Law No: 109-295. Here's the text:

To prohibit the confiscation of a firearm during an emergency or major disaster if the possession of such firearm is not prohibited under Federal or State law.

The amendment, which was attached to a Homeland Security appropriations package, was approved 84-16. The bill itself was signed into law in October 2006.

Clinton voted against; Obama for. Tells me a lot about the views of these two candidates. What, pray tell, might be a national emergency?

[slackmaster]

69. Thanks for pointing that out, KSinTX

Excellent point.

[KSinTX]

82. No problem, it's a critical distinction n/t

[rniel]

83. 2nd amendment Dem checking in

In from Idaho. I am a hunter. Don't believe that shit about Al Gore is going to take away your guns. Bush already did it in New Orleans. I think most hunters are pretty reasonable. Cop killer bullets and Assault weapons should not be tolerated, but an outright gun ban I will never support. The NRA is a bunch of extremists that claim they are standing up for regular gun owners, but they are extremists.

[KSinTX]

85. Not Gore, Clinton

The Vitter Amendment was to stop the abuses that happened in New Orleans. Clinton voted to allow confiscations, Obama voted against it. Clinton's vote was overriddent and Bush signed the Law that said no more confiscation of legal guns by cops (or Blackwater rent-a-cops, yes they were there too!)

[derby378]

86. If you think semi-automatics "should not be tolerated" in America...

...then how the hell do you expect me to believe that you're a "2nd amendment Dem?"

Please. Educate yourself. Here's a site that can help.

Amendment II Democrats
http://www.a2dems.net
http://blog.myspace.com/a2dems

[knixphan]

68. yep. Real people back the big O - once again.

Corporations are pissed, but real folks get it.

[JuniperLea]

74. This organization has a very misleading name...

I would call them "The Pre-Hitler's Registration So We Can Collect All Your Guns Association" because that is their main thrust! This will NOT do Obama any favors... I think they either misunderstand him or are working against him... either way, I don't trust them.

If I were Obama, I'd put this group on the list with Farrakhan and the other dipsy-doodles that are endorsing him without doing him any favors.

[slackmaster]

75. It will have about the same effect as the "endorsement" he got from Hamas

:argh:

[JuniperLea]

76. I was thinking the same thing!

It's like an anti-endorsement!

[slackmaster]

77. Ya know, it's almost Rovian if you think about it

A form of black propaganda (and no, that is NOT a racist term).

[boppers]

91. Black, White, Grey

:) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_propaganda

[GrandmaJones7]

95. AHSA is the same as the anti-choice nuts who "pretend" to offer

legitimate medical services, but in reality, simply try to scare the living shit out of frightened, desperate women who may be considering terminating a pregnancy.

ALL the leaders of AHSA are experienced lobbyist who consistently sought to BAN ALL GUNS until (like magic) they form AHSA as a "wedge group" to accomplish their goal.

Their tactic is simple: divide an conquer.

Obama has NOT received and endorsement from ANY pro-gun group. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.