Seriously, have to ask about this Ayres fellow and here's why...

[HardWorkingDem]

I was talking to a fellow Dem, but HRC supporter the other night and he brought up this Bill Ayers and his wife. I told him I had heard nothing about this guy. He told me I need to read up on him because this will be one thing the right smears Obama with.

Then I go to wikipedia (yes, I know it is probably a bad site to get info) and what I read does not sit well with me when I think of the past elections and the dirt the Rethugs stir up.

Then I come here and see that asshole Hannity is all ready bringing this up.

So I ask, can someone point somewhere that does explain the link to Obama? I've heard he hosted a party for this guy and his wife, I've read he was on some sort of panel with this guy and imagine when the right is done with him, they will be persuading the voters he was with this guy back in the 60's.

And this is not some sort of frigging bullshit ploy to start something.

[anonymous171]

1. In the 60's Obama was like 8.

[HardWorkingDem]

7. Um.....that was hyperbole.....

and just an illustration of what the right wing smear machine try to do...

you know, like photoshop a picture of a baby Obama in a picture with this fellow...

[anonymous171]

8. I can see the 527 as we speak...

:rofl:

[Warren Stupidity]

48. It remains a simple fact: Obama was 8.

An attempt to claim that Obama 'hung with the weather underground' will fall on its face.

[Hawaii Hiker]

66. That was a great answer from Obama, & I also liked the analogy he used

with Oklahoma senator Tom Coburn, who is an ultra far right loony (especially on abortion)..

[Rosa Luxemburg]

103. Hillary must be pretty desperate

[wpelb]

131. The '80s would be more relevant

If there's a picture of Sen. Obama with Prof. Ayers in the '80s and Ayers was still spouting radical rhetoric (or engaging in criminal or at least protest activity) at that time, Sen. Clinton and other critics might have something on him. Otherwise, it is (or should be, but we all know how politics goes) a non-starter.

[DemVet]

50. Still...

...Obama is hanging out with this known terrorist NOW. People ARE judged based upon what company they keep. It's a character issue. That's why the Wright deal is big and Obama supporters just can't see that.

[Voltaire]

55. Oh grow up

And anyone that thinks like you needs to grow up too. If you can't get past Wright and Ayres then nobody wants your fucking imbecilic vote anyway.

GROW UP!!!!

[DemVet]

58. The truth hurts, huh?

So sorry you can't see how character counts.

[dchill]

61. Character counts...

So that explains why Hillary can't.

[Hepburn]

104. Yes I do see....and that is why I will NEVER vote for Hillary, the sniper fire liar.

[indimuse]

62. It's about an Election...one Obama can't win!

People won't vote foe this...not the voters who will matter. DU is DU..but the masses..once they get a glimpse... Game over.

[Vinca]

56. He's not "hanging out" with a known terrorist.

That's a smear - and you know it. If we're going to continue on the guilt by association game, I've got a long list of Clinton associates who are felons for you.

[DemVet]

59. Possibly.

List them.

[Vinca]

67. Here's a few -

VARIOUS ARKANSAS:

1) Roger Clinton: Bill Clinton brother; drug trafficking conviction

(Wall Street Journal "The Foster Test" January 14, 1994)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President.

2) Dan Lasater: governor Bill Clinton contributor and state contractor: drug trafficking conviction

(Wall Street Journal "The Foster Test" January 14, 1994)

3) Dan Harmon: Arkansas Seventh Judicial District prosecuting attorney and Bill Clinton friend and political ally: five federal racketeering, extortion, and drug distribution convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Arkansas Justice" June 13, 1997)

4) Bill McCuen: Bill Clinton political ally: former Arkansas Secretary of State; bribery, tax evasion, kickbacks convictions

(Wall Street Journal: Whitewater: "The Prosecution Rests" May 7, 1996)

WHITEWATER:

5) Webster Hubbell: Bill Clinton friend and political ally; Hillary Clinton Rose Law Firm partner: embezzlement; fraud; two felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Whither Whitewater?" October 18, 1995)

6) Jim Guy Tucker: fraud; three felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Second-Term Stall" February 11, 1997; Associated Press "Tucker Pleads Guilty to Cable Fraud" February 20, 1998)

7) William J. Marks Sr.: Jim Guy Tucker business partner; one conspiracy conviction

(Associated Press "Whitewater Defendant Pleads Guilty" August 28, 1997)

8) Jim McDougal: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend, banker, and political ally: eighteen felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Immunize Hale" May 29, 1996)
Died in prison March 8, 1998

9) Susan McDougal: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend; former wife of Jim McDougal: four felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Immunize Hale" May 29, 1996)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

10) David Hale: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend, banker, and political ally: two felony convictions of conspiracy and mail fraud

(Wall Street Journal "The Arkansas Machine Strikes Back" March 19, 1996)

11) Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker; two felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

12) Stephen Smith: former Governor Clinton aide; one conviction

(Wall Street Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

13) Larry Kuca: Madison real estate agent; fraudulent loans

(Wall Steet Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)

14) Robert Palmer: Madison appraiser; one conspiracy felony conviction

(Wall Street Journal "Hale Predicts Hillary Conviction" October 21, 1996)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

15) Neal Ainley: Perry County Bank president; embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign; two misdemeanor convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Arkansas Bank Shot" May 4, 1995)

16) John Latham: Madison Bank CEO; bank fraud conviction

(Wall Street Journal "Smoke Without Fire" January 12, 1996)

17) John Haley: attorney for Jim Guy Tucker; misdemeanor guilty plea; tax fraud

(Associated Press "Tucker Pleads Guilty to Cable Fraud" February 20, 1998)

18) Eugene Fitzhugh: Whitewater defendant, pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor count of trying to bribe David Hale; is appealing a ten month prison sentence

(The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "Whitewater Defendants" February 22, 1998)

19) Charles Matthews: Whitewater defendant, pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor counts of bribery, served fourteen months of a sixteen month prison sentence

(The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "Whitewater Defendants" February 22, 1998)

ESPY:

20) Tyson Foods: guilty plea; $6 million federal court fines and investigative costs

(Washington Post "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997)

21) Sun-Diamond Growers: $1.5 million fine for illegal campaign contributions to Espy's brother

(Associated Press "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)

22) Richard Douglas: former Sun-Diamond Growers official; several bribery convictions and guilty pleas

(Washington Post "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997; Associated Press: "Lobbyist Pleads guilty in Espy Case" March 17, 1998)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

23) James H. Lake: Sun-Diamond Growers lobbyist; three convictions regarding illegal campaign contributions to Espy's brother

(Associated Press "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

24) Ron Blackley: Espy's chief of staff: financial fraud conviction; twenty-seven month prison sentence

(Washington Post "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997; Associated Press: "Judge Sentences Espy Aide to Jail" March 18, 1998)

25) Smith Barney: improper payments to Espy; $1 million-plus fine

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)

26) Crop Growers Corporation: $2 million fine for money laundering to Henry Espy's campaign

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)

27) Brook Keith Mitchell Sr. (with his company Five M Farming Enterprises: four counts) for fraud

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

28) Five M Farming Enterprises (with owner Brook Keith Mitchell: four counts) for fraud

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)

29) John J. Hemmingson, former head of Crop Growers Corporation: three counts relating to illegal campaign contributions to Henry Espy

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

30) Alvarez T. Ferrouillet, Jr., Louisiana lawyer and Henry Espy campaign finance head: ten count conviction

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

31) Municipal Healthcare Cooperative: Ferrouillet-related company; perjury, bank fraud, money laundering convictions

(Washington Post: "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997)

32) Ferrouillet & Ferrouillet: Ferrouillet-related company; perjury, bank fraud, money laundering convictions

(Washington Post: "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997)

CAMPAIGN FINANCE:

33) Michael Brown (Ron Brown's son): money laundering; misdemeanor conviction

(Los Angeles Times, "Ron Brown's Son Pleads Guilty to Illegal Donation" August 29, 1997)

34) Eugene Lum: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; felony conviction; money laundering

(Los Angeles Times, "First Fund-Raising Sentences Meted Out" September 10, 1997)

35) Nora Lum: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; felony conviction; money laundering

(Los Angeles Times, "First Fund-Raising Sentences Meted Out" September 10, 1997)

36) Johnny Chung: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; many visits to Clinton White House and Oval Office with mainland Chinese associates; several illegal campaign contributions, money laundering, tax fraud, and bank fraud guilty pleas

(Associated Press: "Democrat Fund-Raiser Pleads Guilty" March 17, 1998)

37) Roger Tamraz: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; many visits to Clinton White House and Oval Office; fugitive from Lebanon embezzlement convictions; target of French government financial investigation; BCCI connections

(The Wall Street Journal: "Integrity of the Institutions" March 20, 1997, et. al.)
CISNEROS:

38) Linda Jones: Henry Cisneros mistress; conspiracy, bank fraud, money laundering, and obstruction of justice federal felony guilty pleas; sentenced to three and one-half years in prison

(Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

39) Patsy Jo Wooten: Linda Jones sister; one conspiracy guilty plea (Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)


40) Allen Wooten: Linda Jones brother-in-law; one conspiracy guilty plea

(Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)

[DemVet]

74. Now I'd say you'd have...

...an argument if Bill Clinton was running for office again, but he's not.

Hillary is, and these people have nothing to do with Hillary's candidacy.

As a matter of fact, most of these yahoos were only involved with the Clintons on the periphery.

[Vinca]

90. Yes, it's true Bill Clinton isn't running for president, but since

Hillary is claiming her years as the First Lady of Arkansas and First Lady of the United States in her experience column, the felons list attaches to her as well. Fair is fair.

[cali]

72. lol. like it or not, William Ayers is the Distinguished Professor

of Education at U of I Chicago and widely accepted in liberal dem circles in Chicago. Obama does not hang out with him, and except for serving on the same charity board with him, never did. And no, it's not a big deal. Wright's another story and will definitely get a lot more play in the general.

[UALRBSofL]

82. The difference is Ayers blew up the Pentagon

The Hoover Building and a Police Station in New York killing people. Now, your list of people didn't go around blowing up federal buildings and killing people.

[yardwork]

110. He did? Then how come it's still here?

[patrick t. cakes]

112. didnt kill anybody

sorry its true

[gateley]

79. But he's not a terrorist NOW. He's a college professor or something like that.

[Independent-Voter]

96. And Bill Clinton pardoned "known terrorists"

God damn it, Hillary supporters are fucking obtuse.

[Cosmocat]

100. For the love of god ...

Look, support Hill and all, but that Hill and her supporters feel comfortable sleeping with right wing slanderers and propogandists is just beyond any reason ...

I saw Dick Morris both last night and today on Fox News ... He was going ON and ON about how Hill has all these ties to Muslims and terrorists ...

Is that OK, too ??? You know, the company she keeps, the character issue and all ...

Specious BS is specious BS ... These freaks have done this crape to Hill for a decade and a half, and if the tables were turned right now, the MSM would be more aggressivly advancing this crape against her ...

[Chisox08]

119. And Bill Clinton pardoned a known terrorist

Bill Clinton pardoned members of the Weather Underground.

[Chisox08]

120. Actually he ws only 6

[Muttocracy]

2. I think it's Ayers and they were on this board together:

http://www.woodsfund.org/about/staff

[Kool Kitty]

3. I believe that Ayers held a fund-raiser for Obama,

and both Obama and Ayers are on the board of a charity. That's all I can figure out so far. And Hannity has been harping on this apparently. Stephanopoulos (sp?) was on Hannity's radio show and Hannity told him that he had to ask about this. And so he did. (I think the fund-raiser was for when Obama ran for the Senate?)

[anonymous171]

4. Hannity is a racist.

I'm pretty sure. Why else would he choose to associate with Hal Turner?

[Kool Kitty]

5. Honey, you don't even have to think it, you know he is.

Hannity, Rush, all of them.

[Justitia]

13. The informal gathering (not fundraiser) was for Obama's predecessor, not Obama.

Obama was at their house once w/Alice Palmer (along w/many others), 13 years ago, but no one even knows if they ever even spoke to each other.

And apparently, they may have both served on the board of some charity organization.

So, that's it.

[Kool Kitty]

77. Thanks, I really wasn't sure about that.

I don't think it matters anyway.

[FrenchieCat]

6. And Bill Clinton cut off 24 years on the two who were actually convicted of

setting off the bombs.

[HardWorkingDem]

9. I'm not concerned with HRC-Obama tit for tat...

what I want to know is information about this because I fear it is going to be a number one swiftboat issue in the general and want someone to point me to the facts about it....

check out the wikipedia entry....it's not reassuring at all...

[mcctatas]

11. this article is informative about their "relationship"...

also adresses some of the slime the wingers might throw at him...(not my favorite source, but I don't think Ben Smith can be accused of being an Obama shill)
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html

[chascarrillo]

14. Don't worry. The facts will be known. They will either reassure you or not. So be it.

[FrenchieCat]

17. So you'd rather have Clinton out there instead? She'd get hit just the same!

then you can deal with Clinton pardoning terrorist. Why in the fuck is that better?

Pardoned, but unforgiving

After being pardoned by Bill Clinton, former Weatherman member Linda Evans is still an enemy of American democracy.

On May 11, 1985, she was arrested again, charged and then convicted of acquiring weapons, fake IDs and safe houses, and of terrorist actions. Her targets included the U.S. Capitol Building, the National War College, the Navy Yard Computer Center, the Navy Yard Officers Club, Israeli Aircraft Industries, the FBI and the New York Patrolman's Benevolent Association. In her possession were 740 pounds of dynamite. Evans was sentenced to 40 years in prison.

But then her Clinton patrons intervened.

As the last hours of the Clinton era expired, Linda Evans was freed. It was 24 years shy of her full sentence.
http://archive.salon.com/news/col/horo/2001/09/04/evans/

[DemVet]

51. So....

...we're judging Hillary based upon the actions of her husband? What if she disagreed?

Would it be fair to judge Barack based upon the statements and actions of his wife?

[Hepburn]

105. She's claiming HIS experience as HERS....

...so, I guess your Lyin' Queen takes the bad with the good.

[onenote]

75. not exactly. never tried for that

Caught in possession of explosives. Tried and convicted for that.

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. They are adding it up. They haven't even mentioned the community activist

stuff yet.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mcctatas]

16. I read the post you replied to and kept hearing that old

Violent Femmes song "Add it up"...just thought I'd share, although I think my Nyquil is kicking in so maybe I will read this tomorrow and think :wtf: don't dose and post..

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

15. What was that McCain Keating thing about again???

Just stop quivering at every arrow the right shoots and grow a pair.

[kwenu]

19. Yes. I couldn't have said it better.

:applause:

[FrenchieCat]

22. It's the fucking scary ass wing of the Democratic party again.....

The FSAW!

They don't believe that Obama will have the money, the integrity, and the people power to fight this bullshit. They underestimate him, and overestimate that Hillary will be able to fight off the smears that are ripe for picking and haven't even yet been picked.

If that "screw 'em" White Rurals that Hillary spoke in 1995 to Bill with witnesses present, that shit will hit the fan (she ain't gonna win the nom) if she won the nom.

[HardWorkingDem]

24. Listen.....

The potential for this story far exceeds that of a bribery or fraud story.

In the wikipedia entry it mentions not only was this man involved in bombing the Pentagon, but other governmental buildings as well. Not only that, he wrote an unapologetic biography about his past as well.

Now, what I'm trying to find out is if there is NO REAL connection with Obama at all or what.

And it's not about growing some balls, but about watching Democratic candidate go down again and again when each time we've all thought we can't lose THIS election.

And anyone who has watched presidential politics for any given time understands that the right wing smear machine can turn a rat turd into a nuclear bomb almost effortlessly.

[sandnsea]

28. No you Listen - *I* know an old Weather Underground dude

So. What.

Grow a pair and quit helping them spew their shit.

[HardWorkingDem]

33. Oh, "Great Wise One"...go read this, then come back and

tell me to grow a pair and stop stewing shit...


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html

"They disappeared in 1970, after a bomb — designed to kill army officers in New Jersey — accidentally destroyed a Greenwich Village townhouse, and turned themselves into authorities in 1980. They were never prosecuted for their involvement with the 25 bombings the Weather Underground claimed; charges were dropped because of improper FBI surveillance.


But — unlike some other fringe figures of the era — they’re also flatly unrepentant about the bombings they committed in the name of ending the war, defending them on the grounds that they killed no one, except, accidentally, their own members.

Dohrn, however, was jailed for less than a year for refusing to testify before a grand jury investigating other Weather Underground members’ robbery of a Brinks truck, in which a guard and two New York State Troopers were killed."


Now, unlike you, many Americans still aren't as forgiving about activities meant to kill army officers, Brinks guards and cops. And in the hands of the rethugs, I am just imagining what is going to happen if this is not completely discounted.

But hey, what do I know after watching Carter, Mondale, Dukakis and Kerry go down like rocks......

[Justitia]

35. He went to a party at a neighbor's house once 13 yrs ago, BFD.

He may have served as a director on the same charity board as this guy.

This hardly makes them co-conspirators in some nefarious plot.

Whatta bunch of bullshit.

[HardWorkingDem]

38. Hey, this is what I'm hoping but...

go read the politico piece and the wikipedia entry on this Ayers and then add a dose of past Rovian tactics and then come back and tell me that it is not bothersome.

[Justitia]

41. already done it. We don't even know if these 2 have ever even spoken to each other.

It's like you'd be guilty of something someone on your kid's PTA did 40 yrs ago :crazy:

[Why Syzygy]

87. No one is saying the Rovers won't go after this. And far worse.

Obama can stand up to it. You're not listening.

[sandnsea]

40. Did you help the Swift Boaters too?

I bet you were quaking in your boots spreading the Swift Boat shit day after day too. And then turn around and blame the candidate when YOU are the one who helped sink them. I don't care. It was a long time ago. You meet all kinds of people if you're a politician. SO WHAT.

The question is, are you so desperate for Hillary that you'll say anything to sink Obama?

[HardWorkingDem]

42. Go back and read my other posts....and find out who I support..

And you know what...

As a former veteran and a person who works in an enclave of republican supporters, I can guarantee your ass that I spent more time defending John Kerry regarding the goddamned Swiftboaters than you ever thought of.

So why don't you try having the courtesy to ask about a person's background before you start hurling insults at one's character.

And if you can say "SO WHAT" about meeting people who in their past have done the things this couple have done, then I think you are failing to understand the power of the right wing in this country when it comes to presidential elections.

As someone else stated, he or she can all ready see the 527 ads. I can too, unless someone can show otherwise.

[sandnsea]

43. Yeah, I heard that in 2004 too

Lots of supporters who did nothing but express concern about this or that "problem", day after day. As long as that's what you do, I'll call you on it. You aren't in an enclave of republican supporters, in case you hadn't noticed. So what the hell are you doing posting this shit?

Do you see me posting shit about Hillary being a lesbian? I bet there's a 527 campaign ready to smear her about that too. You don't see Obama supporters posting shit like that, day after day.

[HardWorkingDem]

70. I stated I WORKED in an enclave...

of Republican supporters.

And have you been following politics for a few months or what?

I just love how so many around here seem to have such a terrible barometer to when it comes to tactics and strategies. Hell, so many don't even know the difference between the two.

[SeaLyons]

97. The Swift Boaters

were successful. Your minimizing a huge concern for the GE.

[karynnj]

92. Kerry came within 60,000 votes in Ohio to winning

against a President in a time of war, when the country still thought the war was winnable. The country had been traumatized by 9/11 and had rallied around the leader we had - Bush et al then used terror warnings to constantly refresh the fear - an action that can be described as intentionally terrorizing their own country for political reasons.

If it were Ayers running - I'd be the first to agree with you, but he isn't. He dealt with the legal ramifications of his 1970 actions and he then built a positive life in the field of education. He is now a respected professional, sitting on charity and education boards in Chicago. His connection to Obama is 2 things - 1) he gave him $200 towards a campaign and 2) he is on a board with him and has met with him.

The Clintons have connections at least as close - Bill pardoned 2 weatherman and 16? FALN terrorists. The same people who refuse to credit Ayres and Dohrn with having become respected members of society are not likely to say that the people Clinton pardoned were better - and pardoning is a more active association than sitting on a board that is clearly doing good work.

Even HRC admitted that she has baggage - and though it has been "rummaged through" , it is still there. What you are ignoring is that it was the fact that other Democrats did not protect Gore and Kerry as much as they should have, not that they had baggage - both had far less than the Clintons. In Kerry's case, his exemplary service record was lied about - and the media ignored that the NAVY records were 100% on his side. Yet it was left to people like you to get the truth out. I know that the vets usually circling Kerry at rallies were the best defense he had.

In the end, I think the majority of people who were willing to have the courage to accept a better future did go with Kerry. Even most people who voted for Bush knew that the SBVT lied. Some of those were not happy that he had protested - even though he spoke as much against the far left at that time.

But this year are choice is Clinton or Obama - and there is far less here that can be used against Obama.

[smalll]

47. Even dumb Dubya would never say something like --

My daddy's father was a Nazi, so what, grow a pair.
You can't admit to those kind of associations and get away with it.

[yardwork]

113. Thank you!

Hear hear!

[Big Blue Marble]

20. For background info on Ayres,

read this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5543506&mesg_id=5543506

[HardWorkingDem]

25. Thank you...this is a good start....but more info needed...

Thank you for that link. I certainly hope this is a non-issue but with past viewing of the right wing smear machine, I just don't know. The link and following follow up deal little with the history of this couple and the Obama relationship.

[melody]

21. George H. W. Bush's father staged a coup against the US ... Bill Clinton is a friend of his

Who gives a damn about Ayres?

[FrenchieCat]

23. The scary 1/2 of this party who run a candidate who votes for war

to pacificy the neocons. who sign trade deals to pacify the corporations.

[lapfog_1]

26. Were you alive from 1968 to 1973?

Were you in college then.

50,000 soldiers were being killed in a war then. not 4,000... 50,000.

And there was a draft... if you were drafted, you had to go fight people that had never harmed us, never invaded the US, never even did anything to the US or Americans. Nothing. Never even threatened us.

So the young men of draft age resisted.

I was one of them, though I never did anything violent... and I deplored violence... but I understood WHY they were pissed off. If you protested back then, you had more than police batons, pepper spray and water canons to worry about... the fucking pigs would SHOOT you. Shoot to kill.

So Obama knows a guy who was LIKE ME in those days, a guy who went too far and joined up with a group that supported violence. Obama was like 8 or 10 years old.

Obama meets him decades later (when he is no longer pissed off about a war long ago, a war that he and people like him were RIGHT about)... and Obama serves on a board of directors of a non-profit organization. And this guy (could be ME) holds one fund raiser for a state senator (which probably raised $1000 tops).

BFD.

It could have been me or thousands of others like me. I'm just as guilty as this guy... and I've changed just as much. There are probably some who feel just as angry (and dare I say BITTER) about the war in Iraq today... but there is no draft... and it's only 4000 dead, not 50,000 dead. So the protests (many of which WE DUers support and march in) are the muted aftershock of the 60's and early 70's protests. But the sentiment is the same. And when you are 18 or 19... the passion of your feelings to DO SOMETHING is the same.

Screw all the chicken hawks that want to re-fight Vietnam. We LOST. They bring this up because those that protested SOUND UnAmerican... but they were NOT. They were the truest Americans alive then, just as WE are true Americans today.

[HardWorkingDem]

29. Since you are older than I, I should not have to point out...

how the rethugs WILL twist this story. And it is ludicrous to believe THEY will not. I'm trying to get out in front of this story and to find the facts and what they are because there is that nasty little parable about how a lie gets half way around the world before the truth gets its shoes on.

But I suggest you go to the poltico link above and read down the page and then come back and suggest the right will not use this...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

32. thhe RW smear machine has vidoes already made and ads waiting int the wings to spring on Obama about

AAyers and much more

[Zachstar]

45. And they do not about Clinton? Check out what the internet has exposed!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x119397

And multiply that by 100 and you got what the republicans have on Clinton.

[lapfog_1]

39. I've got a secret for you...

The right wing smear machine is going to do what's it's going to do. We could nominate Mother Teresa (after digging her up) and they would use her professed lack of faith (in her private writings) against her. We could nominate Gandhi, MLK, and Jesus of Nazareth and they would dig up shit about them (Pssst... did you know that Jesus was a SOCIALIST? He wants us to feed the poor! And he consorts with known prostitutes! SEX SCANDAL!).

So far, when the vast right wing conspiracy (which I guess Hillary has taken the "can't beat 'em, join 'em attitude with) has attacked Obama, I like what he has done with it.

It doesn't seem to hurt him much... just for a day or two and then his numbers rebound back up. Can't keep a good person down.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. There simply is no valid twist to it.

[Hamlette]

27. Let me see if I've got this straight

Ayers is a "distinguished" professor and U of chicago. Obama is a senior lecturer at the same place. They are both asked to serve on the board of a charity. Ayers (who was never convicted of anything) gives a fund raiser for Obama years ago.

This makes Obama a bad person? To attend a fund raiser given by a professor who sits on a charity board with him?

[stillcool]

30. Is Ayers Black?

[Justitia]

34. no

[noel711]

93. What does Ayers race have to do with it????

[stillcool]

94. I was wondering...

if I would soon be seeing a picture of an angry black dude plastered all over the television set 24/7. Since he's white, I guess that won't be happening.

[Cassandra]

102. I don't think any of the Weathermen were black...

so I suppose the RW will have to scour up some pictures of the Black Panthers and find some tenuous link, like Obama passed one of them on the street one day, or something equally trivial.

[yardwork]

118. They already did that. That was last month's handwringing.

[FrenchieCat]

31. But if the President as he leaves office pardons the members that were

convicted by a jury and a court and cut their sentence short by 24 years; no biggie. Cause.....somebody said so.


Folks here are out of their minds.

[HardWorkingDem]

36. Sigh....

I'm not trying to play the "tit for tat" game.

A fellow Democrat who supports HRC brought this up to me. When he did I found the tale to be so ludicrous I looked up more information. And when I found what I did I started to imagine what the right is going to do with this story if it is not dealt with.

To me, anyone who ignores this story is not playing good defense at all. Personally, I think the Hannity part is the start of it and it's only going to grow.

[Hamlette]

63. do you honestly believe this is a problem?

given the facts of Obama's association with him?

Should he have refused to sit on the charity with a man who was never convicted of anything?

Should he refused to go to the fund raiser at his house?

I'm old enough to remember the Weathermen. I don't get why dems are freaking out about them.

We were pissed beyond belief about the war. We couldn't get anyone to listen. Johnson just escalated it. Nixon, who promised to end it when elected, bombed Cambodia!

They were beating blacks for sitting at lunch counters. It was on TV every night. Talk about your cultural wars.

My side was protesting. We were furious. We were active. We were not passive like today's youth appear (although, if they turn out and elect Obama I'll reevaluate, maybe even say they were more effective than we were)

A couple of groups took it farther, beyond where most of us went. I didn't agree with them but I know the frustration they felt.

Remember the black power salute at the olympics? It was THOSE times. Now that we have gone back to 50s sitcoms in terms of how we behave in public its hard to imagine but those were different times.

[Kool Kitty]

78. Tell your Hillary-supporting friend

that they have enough to worry about if their candidate gets the nom. You know the pugs are drooling and getting that shit-throwing machine ready. Whichever one of our candidates get the nom is going to have to fight like hell against this shit. It comes with the territory nowadays.

[karynnj]

98. I'm an Obama supporter and I agree that this is something that has to be dealt with

very very conclusively - and I am sure the Obama people will do that. It is what they - and Kerry, as a surrogate, have said they will do with all potential smears. If there is anyone who knows that getting a solid explanation actually out to everyone, it's Kerry. I agree 100% that it can not be ignored.

I think Mayor Daley's defense of who Ayers is today and the role he's played in education policy in Chicago is the way to handle it. Obama has denounced, rejected etc the actions of the weatherman and he had no involvement there - as he was 8 years old.

I actually think that the Clinton pardons could be more trouble to deal with - though nothing I've seen has spoken of their current activities.

[JoFerret]

85. I am glad Clinton did that

I presume Obama is too.

[Justitia]

37. It was not a fundraiser for Obama, it was for someone else. Obama went as a guest.

We don't know if the two even spoke to each other.

Other than that, you've got it right.

That's it.

[whistler162]

46. Good thing that terrorist associating......

ex-President Jimmy Carter hasn't endorsed Senator Obama!

President Carter met with a known terrorist leader, Menachem Begin. :sarcasm:

[rucky]

123. The story has no legs.

it slithers like a slug.

[cooolandrew]

44. If he survived Wright he'll survive anything. Obama has got what it takes.

[jasmine621]

57. He has not "survived" Wright yet. Believe me, there is more to come.

And what he really hasn't survived is his outright lie that he didn't know about many of the comments Wright made before. Most members of that church get copies of the sermons and high profile members like Obama are given copies. He is lying through his teeth and sooner or later someone will put the evidence out there.

[RichardRay]

52. Question for HardWorkingDem...

What would it take to make you comfortable around this issue?

You've learned that Senator Obama and Bill Ayers were not friends, that Ayers did not hold a fund raisers for Senator Obama, that the board they both served on was a totally innoucuous non-profit organization and there has never been a hint of Senator Obama supporting anything that Bill Ayers or the Weather Underground did.

Both the Senator and Ayers taught at the same university, so they moved in similar circles. Is that enough to cause a problem? If so, how can it possibly be defused?

Sitting on non-profit boards is a pretty mild association - I sit on a couple of them myself, and I can't tell you much about the other folks who participate except that they believe in mental health and death with dignity.

Is the Senator going to get accused of bomb-making in the 60's? Of supporting the WU? How can those accusations even be made, let along refuted?

So, what would it take? Is there anything? If there is, please let me know and I'll see what I can do. If there's nothing that can reassure you, then I'd suggest your concern serves no good purpose.

[HardWorkingDem]

69. I'm getting there....but...

I'm seeking factual information. I would imagine sooner or later he will have to address this "association" of whatever sort it was. However, I am just looking down the road and imagining the 527 ads that are possible from this "link."

The sort of ad I imagine is some grainy dark thing where these three are intermingling in a Chicago suburb sipping wine and stuff while the narrator talks about lack of experience or some crap like that.

Now, the most disappointing thing I see here at DU is a seemingly lack of concern or forecast of anticipating what the Rethugs and their ilk WILL do come November.

Because after watching politics for 30 years or so, the best lesson I have learned is this: There is little more dangerous than a cornered, white male conservative when it comes to the thought of his loss of power.

I guess what I'm looking for is what you mention, that being on these boards, panels or whatever, is sort of like attending a huge function where a person can't possibly know the facts of every single person involved.

But recall, my question started from a fellow HRC supporter bringing this fear up to me. Not some right winger.

[Lucinda]

53. CBS posted this piece on the 13th (Opinion piece from National Review)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/11/opinion/main4009369.shtml

It's a pretty negative piece titled "The Bad Company Of Barack Obama" with a fairly large chunk on Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn.

[Justitia]

60. The fucking National Review? I knew Scaiffe was Hillary's new best friend, but now the N'tl Review?

Politics really does make strange RW bedfellows.

Why is this shit allowed on this site?

[Lucinda]

73. The POINT is that CBS picked it up and is running it.

[stillcool]

101. And you find that unusual?

ABC News
Clinton Camp Pushes O-Bomber Links: Ignores Her Own Radical Ties
Clinton, Obama Spar on Ties to Radicals
By JUSTIN ROOD

Feb. 22, 2008—

The Hillary Clinton campaign pushed to reporters today stories about Barack Obama and his ties to former members of a radical domestic terrorist group -- but did not note that as president, Clinton's husband pardoned more than a dozen convicted violent radicals, including a member of the same group mentioned in the Obama stories.

"Wonder what the Republicans will do with this issue," mused Clinton spokesman Phil Singer in one e-mail to the media, containing a New York Sun article reporting a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founding member of the Weather Underground, to Obama in 2001. (Obama's ties to the radical group first surfaced last week in a Bloomberg News article.)

In a separate e-mail, Singer forwarded an article from Politico.com reporting on a 1995 event at a private home that brought Obama together with Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, another former member of the radical group.

Opting to leave any attacks on the issue to the GOP may be wise, as attacks from Clinton could backfire. In his final day in office, President Clinton pardoned another one-time member of the Weather Underground, Susan L. Rosenberg, after she had served 16 years in prison on federal charges.

Rosenberg had been arrested in 1984 while unloading 740 pounds of dynamite, a submachine gun and other weapons from the back of a car.

Rosenberg admitted the materials were to supply others for politically-motivated attacks. Authorities had been searching for Rosenberg since 1981, for what they believed was her role in the robbery of a Brinks truck in Rockland County, N.Y. The attack, for which Rosenberg was thought to have aided with surveillance and getaway driving, left two police officers and a guard dead.

Rosenberg has denied playing a role in the Brinks heist. In arguing for a pardon in 2001, she noted that she had been a model prisoner.

And in 1999, President Clinton also pardoned 16 violent Puerto Rican nationalists responsible for more than 100 bombings of U.S. political and military installations, after they promised to renounce violence. The attacks reportedly killed six people and wounded dozens more. In justifying the pardons, President Clinton noted none of the men had been convicted of crimes that resulted in death or injuries.

[livingmadness]

54. Why of course you are entitled to your 'concern'

but here's the rub. UNLESS this becomes an issue with voters and somehow manages to sway votes in upcoming primaries, it doesn't matter how much concern you have. At this point Obama is the nominee-elect, he leads in the important statistics, he is picking up super-delegates at a stunning rate, and the only thing that can stop him now is if somehow he tanks in PA and NC by a significant margin. If that doesn't happen - it doesn't matter how much of an 'issue' you think Ayers, or Wright, or 'Bitter'-gate blah blah is. The party is not going to turnover Obama's lead unless that lead somehow slips. Its just not going to happen - particularly while Hillary's unfavourables continue to climb. It would be too great a risk for the Democratic party, and the DNC have been parroting that promise consistently.

So distract away, anxt, whatever brings you joy - all I can say is 'scoreboard'. Unless your candidate is able to wound Obama in the polls, the game is over.

[crankychatter]

64. I support Obama but I have grave concerns about petty bullshit

give me a fucking break

[catnhatnh]

65. "They'll bring it up, They'll bring it up....."

"...I know they will because I'll help them do it!"

[ProSense]

68. Here, read

this and this.

[DefenseLawyer]

71. You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows

and it's Hillary Clinton's political future that is twisting in the wind.

[smiley_glad_hands]

76. Ask Bill Clinton he pardoned some of his cohorts, so he should know all about him. eom

[Jed Dilligan]

80. Thank you for your concern!

[UALRBSofL]

81. The Ayers issue has never been brought up in the media until last night

That's why no one knew anything about him. But, the media was talking about him on all the stations today and what he did was he blew up a bomb at the pentagon, the Hoover building and a police station in NY.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

83. I love the OP's wide-eyed innocence: Oh my dearie me!

What is this google of which they speak?!?

[HardWorkingDem]

106. You know...

the reason I ask questions like this at DU is because more often than not, a DU member will be able to point me to a site or a great explanation about stuff like this Ayers business without all the hype, rumor and misinformation.

And then other DU'ers, like yourself A-Scharzenegger, give empty, sarcastic replies that do no good. Thanks for nothing.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

122. Youre quite welcome, Innocent One.

:rofl:

[JoFerret]

84. Wikipedia is a great site to get information

.

[WinkyDink]

86. Excuse me, but of whom are you speaking? A free citizen of this nation? What's your problem?

Do you know that Patty Hearst is now a highly-respected society dame?

Maybe you should care about the convict Scooter Libby. Or the treasonous Dick Cheney, who revealed the name of a covert spy and destroyed her CIA operation.

[Why Syzygy]

88. It's playing today > 334 new stories on google so far >

http://news.google.com/?ncl=1151892578&hl=en&topic=n

[GoesTo11]

89. The 60's are over

Of course the Republicans will stir things up. I see this mentioned a lot, but really this will happen no matter what. Democrats don't need to jump like scared rabbits every time the Republicans might say boo.

But this will just sound silly. Trying to link Bill Clinton to Vietnam war protests etc. made sense, because he was in college at that time. Trying to link John Kerrey to Vietnam war protests made sense because he led them. Barack Obama is not of that generation. To anybody under 50, the 60's are ancient history. To people over 50, Barack Obama wasn't there.

[babylonsister]

91. Here's something about Ayers I came across this a.m.:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/16/231245/285

I live in Obama and Ayers neighborhood - Some Truth
by tom32182
Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 08:14:33 PM PDT

I live near both Obama and Ayers. Ayers is now a member of the mainstream Chicago progressive circle. He serves on city charities, was an education aide to Mayor Daley, and is a Distinguished Professor of Education at the University of Illinois – Chicago.

His wife, Bernadine Dohrn, is now the director of the Children’s Rights Clinic at Northwestern University Law School and has taught courses at the University of Chicago. She is an important children’s rights advocate in the Chicago area.

I think the real thing that is missing from the discussion on Ayers and Dohrn is some context on Hyde Park (this is what I'd like readers to be able to get a better idea of):

Hyde Park is a small community on the South Side of Chicago that is surrounded by many high crime areas (basically the most violent parts of Chicago). Hyde Park, referred to as the jewel of the South Side, is basically like living on an island. The Hyde Park area is only 14 blocks long and many people who live here send their children to the same school – the University of Chicago lab schools (though there are also some great public schools like Kenwood Academy!). The community has only one major supermarket, and most people who live here run across each other at some point because of how small the neighborhood is. However, the community is diverse – the neighborhood ranges from politicians like Barack Obama, Carol Moseley Braun, the late Harold Washington to academics like Cass Sunstein, Martha Nussbaum, Gary Becker, Richard Epstein, Richard Posner, and the late Saul Bellow. The community also has some ex-radicals like William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, who are now mainstream academic/progressive figures in Chicago.

If you live in this small neighborhood for 20 years, it is likely that you will run across Ayers or Dohrn. This is especially the case for Obama, as he was the State Senator for this community, was an important member of the Chicago Democratic Community, served on local charities, taught at the University of Chicago Law School (and spoke at conferences with people like Ayers – a professor at University of Illinois-Chicago and Dohrn – a professor at Northwestern Law School who also teaches at the University of Chicago). This "Hannity" story is ridiculous and it reflects how bad the media has become.

Update: Thanks for helping me make the rec list - it is our job to spread the truth and stop the swiftboat campaigns against Barack. I have run into Senator Obama in Hyde Park and I can tell you this neighborhood is behind him. I think he won over 90% of the primary vote here! Obama 08!

Further Update: Also, I wanted to add that Barack has not limited himself to Hyde Park in terms of his experience in Chicago - his Church is farther South (in an area that has a large amount of crime and poverty) and he spent his time in community organizing helping the lower income areas of Chicago.

[futureliveshere]

95. Please do read my post on Ayers for some more details on him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5562154

[HardWorkingDem]

108. Thank you....your reply is the stuff I seek....

THIS is why I ask questions here rather than just Google.

Thank you

[futureliveshere]

125. Glad to be of assistance

:hi:

[stillcool]

99. I am scared shitless...

of the big, bad, republicans! I am so scared I might have to vote for Hillary Clinton and John McCain! :scared:

[HardWorkingDem]

107. Yeah, go ahead and laugh it off...

Because after watching past presidential elections, I can imagine the ads for this crap.

Think of it - 1 in 10 Americans think Obama is a Muslim, which has become probably the number one code word for "terrorist."

Hopefully the Obama people have a great reply for this story like the one he used on HRC the other night. If not, it's a hop, skip and jump away from the right painting him as one who hangs out with terrorists and drinks latte while dining on fine cheese.

[onenote]

111. and are you equally concerned about bill clinton's commutation of other Weather Underground members?

Do you worry about what the repubs might say about that?

If not, why not?

[HardWorkingDem]

126. Is Bill Clinton running for president? Thought that was 92...

I'm not in this for a "tit for tat" game; like I've stated, until a HRC brought this to my attention, I had no idea who this guy and his wife were and after reading a bit about them on Wikipedia, their history troubled me when I started thinking about this story in the hands of the rethugs.

THAT is why I asked here - because many times DUers are able to point others to great sources of information over things like this.

I still think it could be a problem later on - remember who we are dealing with here.

[stillcool]

116. You want to play the fear game..

go right ahead. Pimping the scary black dude isn't working..but hey..you can always hope.

[HardWorkingDem]

127. Are you referring to me? If so...

what you write is offensive. Go back and re-read my posts to see who I've been supporting in this race.

[stillcool]

129. I was replying to this..

Yeah, go ahead and laugh it off...

Because after watching past presidential elections, I can imagine the ads for this crap.

Think of it - 1 in 10 Americans think Obama is a Muslim, which has become probably the number one code word for "terrorist."

Hopefully the Obama people have a great reply for this story like the one he used on HRC the other night. If not, it's a hop, skip and jump away from the right painting him as one who hangs out with terrorists and drinks latte while dining on fine cheese.

sorry if you are offended by my not being willing to be scared shitless about what the big bad republicans and the media will do. You sound as if the entire country is asleep and will wake up when the republicans ride into town screaming BLACK_BARACK_REZKO_REVEREND WRIGHT_MUSLIM_HUSSEIN_OBAMA
You support whoever you want, and stoke your own fears.

[HardWorkingDem]

130. I'm not playing the fear game...

but they certainly will and that is my point. Those people will stop at nothing to stay in power and that has always been my contention.


What I found offensive, and I apologize in advance if you were not directing it towards me, was my inference that you were implying I'm partaking in the fear of the black man game; I'm not. I'm just trying to point out the conservatives will float any turd they can in the punch bowl and time and time again, the Democrats have been asleep at the wheel.

Go back and look at the Dukakis campaign and what they learned too late - to hit back harder and faster (oddly the Clinton's did learn this in their campaign in 92, but Kerry forgot what Dukakis didn't learn and what the Clinton's did and then forgot it himself).

And I think anyone who does not realize this and thinks pointing out and studying the weaknesses of our candidates is "playing the fear game" won't be backing winning candidates long.

[stillcool]

132. I happen to believe that what has..

gone before, does not dictate how it always will be. I am very enthusiastic because of the knowledge I have gained from the Internet. If it were not for my on-line education I would be woefully ignorant and probably swallow half of what the media spouts. I have the feeling I am not alone.

[yardwork]

109. There's an article in today's Washington Post about Ayers and his wife.

I also started a Latest Breaking News thread about it, here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3273494&mesg_id=3273494

[kskiska]

121. Ayers is mainstream - an advisor to Mayor Daley

(snip)

Nearly 30 years after surrendering to police, Ayers and Dohrn, both in their 60s, are tenured university professors whose work on school reform and juvenile justice have won them bipartisan respect.

Ayers is an informal adviser to Mayor Richard M. Daley and has been awarded more than $50 million in charitable grants for his promotion of small schools as a solution to a crisis in education. Dohrn lectures widely on children's law and serves on a variety of boards and committees. Together, they have raised three boys in the intellectual haven of Hyde Park, where Sen. Barack Obama is a neighbor.

(snip)

In Chicago, however, Ayers is considered so mainstream that Daley issued a statement on Thursday praising him as a "distinguished professor of education" and a "valued member of the Chicago community."

"I don't condone what he did 40 years ago, but I remember that period well," said Daley, an Obama supporter whose father, Richard J. Daley, was a favorite target of the antiwar movement when he was mayor in the '60s. "It was a difficult time, but those days are long over. I believe we have too many challenges in Chicago and our country to keep refighting 40-year-old battles."



more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/17/AR2008041703910.html?sub=AR

[crankychatter]

114. it is a "bullshit ploy" and I've elected to consign you to the nether realm

tired of seeing this lame ass post

*poof*

[smiley_glad_hands]

115. McCain surrogate to Hilliary: I seriously have to ask about Vince Foster. eom

[WyLoochka]

117. Bill Ayers and Bernadette Dorhn

Have led exemplary lives and contributed much to Chicago educational and poverty relief efforts since they turned themselves in many years ago.

They have Atoned. They are respected members of their communities. Are there any real Christians here who understand atonement?

It used to mean you get the chance to turn your life around and make a contribution to the larger society.

What have we become? We are casting aside all that was once good about this country.

And for what - so those two supremely selfish assholes - Bill and Hill can live in the White House again?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

124. Made up your mind on this one yet, HardWorkingDem?

Or do you still need more statisticals & true facts?

[HardWorkingDem]

128. Getting there but...

check with me the day after election day, because if the Rethugs don't latch on to this and turn it into a swiftboat, then I will be very, very shocked.

Eventually, I believe Obama will have to make a statement about this and will most likely make a great one and while making the statement will be able to point to McCain's mingling with much, much worse people in his career and that that will be the neutralizing factor in this story.