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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:20 AM
Original message
Post Debate Frayed Thread


"I like Barack Obama, and I’m not attacking him, but …." – Tucker Carlson

Is all lost, if after the ABC debate, Tucker Carlson is finding fault with him? My goodness, Tucker uses the word "inexcusable" to Obama’s relationships with people that Carlson dislikes. Is the sky falling?

Let’s take a look at the debate, the voters, and the media

First, on the eve of the debate, there were two interesting threads on GD-P – one by Emit and the other by David Zephyr – which pointed out that there appeared to be a conflict in interests in ABC’s having George Stephanopoulos serving as a moderator. He had previously been employed as a Clinton political operative. Several Clinton supporters pointed out that he had split with Bill Clinton in such a manner that he could not be expected to favor Hillary over Barack.

As a result of the interesting points made on those threads by both Clinton and Obama supporters, I posted a "pre-debate" thread yesterday afternoon, asking a few questions, including what questions DUers would like to have asked at the debate? There were a lot of good questions put forward, from both Clinton and Obama folks. Valid questions, indeed: I felt that they showed that DUers are able to focus on the issues that are important to the general public.

I was pleased that one person posted questions that were way out of place on the thread. The person’s questions were personal attacks aimed at Obama. I thought it was wonderful, because it illustrated the sharp contrast between meaningful questions, and the type of absurd nonsense that Emit and David Z had warned of in their threads.

The posts by Emit and David expressed concern that George Stephanopoulos would try to sneak in some of the questions that Sean Hannity had supplied him with. Now that is true – Sean Hannity supplied George with attacks on Obama. And not only did George become Hannity before our very eyes, but Charlie Gibson came off as less capable of providing balance than Alan Colmes. The result was a debate that was so anti-Obama that had Emit and David proposed the possibility of the actual series of questions would be asked, most of us would have thought "it couldn’t possibly be that bad."

Now, let’s consider the target audience. We can also break the public into three groups: {1} those who always support you; {2} those who always oppose you; and {3} the undecided. I think that we can easily conclude that the Group 1 people who support Barack, resent the ABC moderators’ questions, and that the Clinton supporters in Group 2 are feeling that Obama deserved to be attacked by George Hannity, because the media has attacked Hillary before.

So Group 3 is what matters. And in Group 3, there are two distinct sub-groups: (a) the general public, including the Pennsylvania voters and the other places preparing for their primaries; and (b) the Super Delegates who have not decided or announced which candidate they plan to vote for. The way each group views the debate, and the media coverage associated with it, will have some overlap, but will have differences. The general public will recognize that the moderators focused on asking Obama harsh questions on "wedge" issues that had little to do with the things that are of interest to them: the price of gas, of heating their homes in the winter, or buying groceries, their medical insurance, the price of a college education, and the price of the war in Iraq.

It wasn’t simply that the moderators’ focus on wedge issues denied the audience the opportunity to hear Obama address the serious issues, it also meant that Clinton was unable to speak on the issues that are part of the public’s everyday life.

Senator Clinton did make a concentrated effort to keep attention on those wedge issues. Clinton supporters were no doubt delighted by what they view as her "toughness," while Obama supporters saw it as further evidence of her channeling republican tactics.

The question is, then, what will the general public Group C people think? Next Tuesday, we will find out for sure. But the previous examples from the campaign indicate that Obama is only marginally harmed by controversy, while Clinton tends to have increases in her "negatives."

Clearly, Senator Clinton is intent upon damaging Senator Obama, rather than focusing on her positions on the serious issues, because her campaign wants to pressure the Super Delegates. Those are the "undecided" people she is trying to communicate with. The ABC debate had less to do with the democratic primary, as it did with the general election.

As grass roots Obama supporters, we have a number of opportunities to help our campaign. First, we should take steps to influence how the media coverage is viewed by Group C. It is important to call, write, and/or e-mail ABC. But it is a hundred times more important to call, write and e-mail other media sources. We saw Countdown cover the specific issues raised on Emit and David’s threads. I think that we will see other accurate coverage this evening on other MSNBC shows.

We should be contacting other television and radio shows, and writing letters to the editor of our local papers, as well as targeting Pennsylvania papers. Our messages should be aimed specifically on reaching the Group 3 people. Thus, make them brief, calm as opposed to angry, and focused on a specific issue: that the ABC debate was focused on wedge issues, rather than democratic issues.

I think that Senator Obama did well last night. We should not allow the corporate media interests, or republicans, or even the Clinton campaign, to define it for the Group C people. And that includes the Super Delegates who will be watching the reaction to the debate, and the general public. Let’s get to work!

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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. Recommended...
I've seen several media outlets critical of ABC's moderation of the debate, and not a SINGLE source of praise. Of course, Clinton supporters say this is indicative of the larger part of the media being in the bag for Obama.:crazy:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think that
the corporate media -- and I do not mean individual journalists who may favor Obama or Clinton -- is pimping for the republican machine. (And speaking of whores, Joe Liberman is on MSNBC at this very moment!)
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lisa58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Donate if you can...
...the media gauges success by the donations a campaign receives.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Great point.
No matter if you can send $5, $25, $50, or $100, please send a contribution to the campaign if you can afford to.

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. No worries. Obama has changed the paradigm of politics as usual.
He's taking on the MSM, Clinton horde, and the GOP. He rises above the clanging din with grace and dignity and focuses on the issues that matter to people. I am optimistic.

K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Right.
It did seem like a tag-team effort to "get" Obama last night. I thought that he did well. We saw him begin to score with some of the counter punches. I think that we have plenty of solid material to build on here.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. I had a thought this morning
No matter how frustrated I become with CNNI, (this is the only news channel I get), the debates they hosted, although not in League of Women Voters league, were superior to what happened last night. I had emailed ABC last night, telling them what I thought of them. This morning I made a point of emailing Wolf Blitzer and complimented him on the conduct of their presidential debates in comparison to last night's shit fest. Writing to other media is important, as you say. I will do some more of it today.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Thank you.
It is one of the single most important things that we can do today.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. The media is working hard to paint Obama as a terrorist in the minds of feeble minded Americans
Senator Obama, why are you a Muslim?
Senator Obama, why do you refuse to wear a flag pin, do you hate America?
Senator Obama, why does your pastor hate America?
Senator Obama, why do you know of someone who tried to blow up government buildings when you were 8 years old?

The media has no agenda other than fair and balanced reporting for the American public?? Yeah right......

WAKE UP AMERICA, YOU ARE BEING DUPED

Are Rove and the Republicans correct in believing that the masses are so stupid as to buy into any of this false propaganda?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Exactly right.
One of the areas that I am planning to write about in the next day or so is advertising. What we are seeing now is a media advertising campaign for the republican party. They are trying to sell the public a product named John McCain. And Obama supporters are unhappy to see Hillary Clinton doing guest appearances in these advertisements. But rather than focus on Hillary per say, we need to have a better understanding of how commercials work.

The best example that I can think of is commercials that are aimed at children and youth. Let's start with an obvious example: the McDonalds' commercials, aimed at little kids. Most parents have had the experience of having a child in a car seat get excited when they see the infamous golden arches when traveling down life's highway. Most little kids aren't fans of McDonalds' food, which is unfit for human consumption. But the toddlers get excited by those arches, because they have seen McDonalds' commercials. Now, it is not going to do much good to tell a three year old that you shouldn't feed McDonalds food to a stray dog. They are too young to get that. The best thing you can do is turn off the TV more often when you are at home.

Cigarettes and booze aime ads at teens and young adults. We all know this. Years ago, before I worked at the mental health clinic, I was employed at another agency, and worked with teens. I was lucky, because the offices near my own were those of county substance abuse counselors. And I had the opportunity to work closely with them on helping young folks understand advertising. Once a person understands what the commercial is doing to try to manipulate them, the person responds to it in a very different manner. No one appreciates attempts to manipulate them.

We need to use the same tactics when dealing with the general public about what the corporate sponsors of the republican machine are trying to sell us. We need to use every opportunity to expose the use of corporate ads that try to manipulate the public perception, and sell a product that is as unhealthy as cigarettes and booze. It's something that we will need to do between now and Obama's being nominated at our convention, but even more, it's a skill we need to develope for the fall campaign.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Obama needs to start speaking openly about what the media is attempting to do here
I think people are becoming more skeptical of the media, so if he takes the time to speak on this openly and expose their agenda for what it is to those voting Americans that can't figure it out for themselves, I think it will help immensely. I know he has called the media out for the tabloid issues they are stuck on, but he needs to get more basic in his talk and point to the specific examples of what they are doing and address the impression the media is attempting to paint of him.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Right.
There needs to be a coordinated effort, which includes Barack Obama, his campaign staff, select people who have endorsed him, and people at the grass roots level.
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. Catch 22
It is a difficult prospect to bite the hand that feeds you (publicity).
If Obama complains about the media attention, even if it is narrowed to those tabloid attacks, it will be re-edited and broadcast as not being able to take the 'tough questions' and not wanting to be accountable. Unfortunately Democrat candidates have to be twice as smart as Republican ones because they have to fight the right wing media mud slingers as well as the Karl Roves.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Good point
:kick:
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
34. Good points
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
10. I must say that even after a good night of sleep, I am still stunned by that "debate".
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 08:14 AM by myrna minx
From the opening graphics, that were reminiscent to the opening of a silly reality show, to the blatantly yellow questions, the whole "debate" was a farce. How in any way is it appropriate for ABC to allow George Stephanopoulos, a man who worked for the Clinton Administration, to co-moderate as well as be Sean Hannity's proxy? Gibson bristled and pouted about capital gains taxes. *Capital Gains Taxes*! Gibson truly understands the issues that are important to the American people. :sarcasm: It's as if Gibson doesn't even know what is important to the American public and this debate was a exercise in self indulgent, "journalistic" vanity. This debate was a waste of the candidates time and our time and was an insult to we Americans who desire meaningful answers from our candidates.


On Edit: The question posed to Obama about Affirmative Action was a blatant dig as well, thus continuing the Clinton meme that Obama is the "Affirmative Action" candidate. Gibson has no integrity.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. It was an advertisement
for the republican party. The face in the ice cube was John McCain's.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Went to bed "ill".. woke up still feeling sick. Shock and Awe, indeed.. and it has
nothing to do with Obama's "performance". It was a setup, an ambush, that had NOTHING to do with issues.

ABC NEW YORK NEWSROOM: (212) 456-5100 newsradio@abc.com Newsroom Fax Machine 212.456.5150

Peter Salinger (THE MAN IN CHARGE OF ELECTION COVERAGE) Director, Special Events & Sports 212.456.5105 peter.salinger@abc.com

Cristi Landes, Manager, Programming 212.456.5107 cristi.d.landes@abc.com

Wayne Fisk Director, Programming 212.456.5327 wayne.fisk@abc.com

Jeff Fitzgerald Executive Director, Operations 212.456.5554 jeffrey.t.fitzgerald@abc.com

Heidi Oringer Executive Director, Entertainment 212.456.5541 heidi.b.oringer@abc.com

Jon Newman News Coverage 212.456.5100 jonathan.m.newman@abc.com

Joyce Alcantara Assignment Manager 212.456.5106 joyce.a.alcantara@abc.com

Jim Kane Deputy D.C. Bureau Chief 212.222. 6604 james.f.kane@abc.com

Andrew Kalb Executive Director, Programming 05.567.2269 andrew.l.kalb@abc.com

Robert Garcia Executive Director, News & Sports 212.456.5103 robert.garcia@abc.com
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thanks for the links!
Very much appreciated.
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
48. Creating Wedges
"The question posed to Obama about Affirmative Action was a blatant dig as well"

I think that question about what would Obama do to help with access to education for poor white kids and thus by proxy prevent better off black kids from getting into institutions was such a sleazy attempt to create a wedge issue in the the African American community, which are for the most part one of Obama's most solid supporters.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
15. Regarding the viewers of this debate
An important distinction is this was on ABC, network TV that goes to every home in America as verses a cable news channel.

More Americans that do not follow politics daily as we do saw the debate that they have only heard mentioned in the nightly news.

Anything done on MSNBC or other cable news channels will not reach the majority of Americans, they just don't have the viewers ABC does.


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. True.
No one news source reaches the majority of voters -- and certainly not all of the people we want to reach. That's why it is important to contact CBS and NBC, as well as the cable news. More, we need to target "local" news stations (tv and radio), as well as newspapers. Letters-to-the-editor are the most read section of every paper during election time (primaries and general). It is important to write the 3 paragraph, 3-4-3 or 3-3-4 sentence LTTE. Small newspapers are just as important as medium to large ones, at this point.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. Insanity Has Once Again Loosed Itself In This Country
As I understand it the Clinton strategy is, as she can't win in a democratic way, that is to say by votes, to try and cut the heart out of our democracy and disenfranchise all the people who voted for Barack by having the SDs overturn the election. If the Sds become the new SC of the land and people let that decision stand, we deserve what we get, as a country.

This is a change election and the people have to decide what kind of change they want. It is a moment in time where the country has a choice of either changing the slipcovers by putting in Clinton or McCain, thus making a cosmetic change only or we can redo the entire house.

After 7+ years of * we are going to truly come face to face with ourselves, who we really are and who we want to be. I hope the people get this, while the DC bitteratti yap on about lapel pins and anything else that doesn't matter.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. One good measure:
Some DUers may recall that I posted an essay on "nativism" a couple days ago. I thought it was important to provide a proper context for the comments that Obama made regarding bitterness.

Yesterday I got the new SPLC Report, from the Southern Poverty Law Center. The top article on the front page is titled, "Nativist rage fuels hate group growth." In short, in the years of the Bush2 administration, hate groups have grown by 48%.

Is our country facing very serious issues tht are more significant than a flag pin?
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
55. this election was about change until kucinich dropped out.
the insanity is thinking that clinton or obama are really about change. whoever wins in november, i predict a draft and/or another major terrorist attack against the u.s. (to boost volunmteerism). time will tell. i'll eat my hat if i'm wrong, but i'll be back to remind you if i'm right.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
17. K/R.
:kick:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
51. Thanks. n/t
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
52. Thanks n/t
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Tinksrival Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
20. The Clinton campaign will no doubt have already disseminating talking points.
This will be focus directly on Super delegates. I read a quote last night from Rendell......

"she scored a decisive victory tonight. A decisive victory. A knockout blow. A decisive victory. A decisive victory."

If Obama supporters live in a state with an uncommitted elected official super delegate, they should send a positive email of support.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yes, it is important
to let Super Delegates know that we are ready and able to deal with the republican machine.

The truth is that a lot more of the Super Delegates have already made up their minds on who they are going to support. They are remaining quiet, because of the experiences of those who have announced, and who have had the nasty "You're off the list!" communications from the Clinton campaign. And the Clinton machine will continue to use a two-prong approach: pressure in private communications, and the public attacks on Obama. All of this is geared to try to make Obama appear as a risk the democratic party cannot afford in the fall.

Expect the Clinton machine to try another round of attacks in the next week. It really is the only option that the last place candidate has. More important, we should all beengaging in the positive actions that have come t define the Obama movement. We need to continue to place our clean, cool glass of water next to the opposition's dirty glass. The general public will know which glass they want to drink from.
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Tinksrival Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Very well put!
"We need to continue to place our clean, cool glass of water next to the opposition's dirty glass. The general public will know which glass they want to drink from."

:toast:
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
25. Why were Hillary's eyes darting around during the first half of the debate?
I thought that was odd, having been a professional observer of human behavior for many years;
I found that unfocused behavior revealing and something that I had not observed before
in any of the previous debates.


I suggest that one turns the sound off on the debate
and just watch body and eye movement of everyone involved.



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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Maybe she saw Vince Foster's ghost.
:yoiks:

:D

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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
26. The noise machine is cranking up.....go read David Brooks
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. There is a place for comments after his blog entry....n/t
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Interesting
My take is that the majority of opinions went counter to his. Another bit I found equally interesting is that one writer said that ABC had 7000 comments on their comment section last night. Now I read a lot of those comments and they weren't pretty. They left no doubt about the missing professionalism of Gibson and Georgie B.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. I Stand Corrected
13756 Comments

Posted by:
uwinche 11:30 AMMark As Violation
Admin Link: 16408

This undecided voter will now vote for Obama thanks to last night's despicable pile-on. I saw only one human being last night and was not Gibson, Stephanopolous or Clinton. Very poor show. America deserves better.If only we could vote for our media...oh wait, we can. With our wallets and our remotes.Boycott ABC and Disney. It is the only way to make them listen to we, the people.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5547835
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. There tend to be two
distinct types of responses: the people who have already decided who they support will already have a pretty firm view of the "debate" -- either pro or con.

Those who are undecided will tend to process it for a little longer. That includes the general public, and the Super Delegates. In the case of the Super Delegates, they will tend to process more information on it over a period of days.
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elmerdem Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
56. I think
that this sums up David Brooks & the MSM.

'understand the complaints, but I thought the questions were excellent. The journalist’s job is to make politicians uncomfortable, to explore evasions, contradictions and vulnerabilities. Almost every question tonight did that. The candidates each looked foolish at times, but that’s their own fault.'

They think that this is truly the journalists job. People who are out of work or loosing their job are starting to understand the excesses of our culture. They are tired of the superficial reality shows. The MSM are out of touch with this trend & stuck in the mindset that this type of journalism is actually still important. Hillary is there with them. I am a firm believer in karma & what is happening to the MSM is a good example. The integrity of reporting is shifting to the internet. NY Times, ABC & all the MSM will continue to loose viewers/readers as people slowly trickle to the integrity of other sources. The American people are waking up to the damage that the republican & DLC corporate mentality have done to this country. This will only further their skepticism concerning the motives of folks like Brooks & the ABC crews (& all corporate owned media). It will even push people away from some of the longest running MSM political shows. I cannot believe that Russert continues to have Matlin & Carville on. The American people are beginning to open their eyes to the bias & motivations of all these political talking heads. & It is about damned time!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
29. ABC was market-testing their tabloid journalism skills.
Their marketing department figured enough Americans have been dumbed-down enough to venture into the same market as CNN Headline News and FUX.



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Right.
One of my cousins told me that the democrats in Pennsylvania are taking their role very seriously; she compared them to jurors in search of the truth about who is the better candidate for our party in 2008. As such, I think that they are less inclined to fall for the sad excuse for journalism that was served up by ABC last night.
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I just e-mailed ABC and told them they did a disservice to all
Pennsylvanians with their conduct of the debate last night. Pitiful. Too bad one is only allowed 500 characters in the comment section. I had plenty more to say.

BTW, what was that whole flag pin question about? It makes Pennsylvanians look shallow. It was embarrassing that they chose that video question above all the other substantial questions that are out there.

I want to cry :-(.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Good that you
e-mailed them. Please don't stop: it is more important to e-mail other news sources.

Also: do not let this upset you. It is okay. I do believe that you are a hiker, and are familiar enough with trails to know that in order for us to get to that mountain top, we must first pass through some valleys. And some have been overgrown with brush, and fallen trees, making it difficult to make a lot of progress on some days. But we are going up that mountain. Believe it.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
31. K&R
Rolling up my sleeves as we speak. :thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Spring cleaning ......
the democratic party needs a bit of it.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
36. Thank the loss of the Fairness Doctrine 1987 and the 1996 Telecommunication Act
For what has been the collapse of the National Television Press and the rise
of the tabloid Corporate Press.



Read

Silent Weapons for a Quiet War

An Introductory Programming Manual
Operations Research
Technical Manual..............http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/silentweaponsforquietwars.htm


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Right.
I agree 100%.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. "It's not about us. We'll do fine. It's about the American people."
Hillary Clinton's behavior in last night's debate betrayed the LIE in her posture. Flag pins are NOT about the American people. Reverend Wright is NOT about the American people. A Distinguished Professor of English who was a member of the Weather Underground 40 years ago is NOT about the American people. And, to be fair, phantasmagorical snipers in Boznia are NOT about the American people.

She's an embarassment to democracy.


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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Don't forget, she admitted to being a liar too.
"I said some things I knew not to be the case." - She gave the GOP all the ammo they need with that singular statement - a 'nukular' weapon.



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Since January,
I have found significant parts of the Clinton campaign highly offensive. By mid-February, I found certain behaviors to be reckless and potentially dangerous, because it was appealing to what Senator Robert Kennedy referred to as the darker impulses of the American spirit. But I saw a distinction between that, and the candidate herself. In the past, I've mentioned that I've had the opportunity to meet Senator Clinton twice, and the very positive impression I had of her simply didn't match up with the campaign I've been seeing.

The Bosnia lie bothered me. But that was nothing compared to what I saw last night.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
45. Bob Marley
used a speech by Haile Salassie for this song:

War

What life has taught me
I would like to share with
Those who want to learn...

Until the philosophy which hold one race
Superior and another inferior
Is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned
Everywhere is war, me say war

That until there are no longer first class
And second class citizens of any nation
Until the colour of a man's skin
Is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes
Me say war

That until the basic human rights are equally
Guaranteed to all, without regard to race
Dis a war

That until that day
The dream of lasting peace, world citizenship
Rule of international morality
Will remain in but a fleeting illusion
To be persued, but never attained
Now everywhere is war, war

And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes
that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique,
South Africa sub-human bondage
Have been toppled, utterly destroyed
Well, everywhere is war, me say war

War in the east, war in the west
War up north, war down south
War, war, rumours of war

And until that day, the African continent
Will not know peace, we Africans will fight
We find it necessary and we know we shall win
As we are confident in the victory

Of good over evil, good over evil, good over evil
Good over evil, good over evil, good over evil
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
46. I'm not sure how this will play out. I talked to a few old schoolmates who live in PA.
All three are undecided. Two of them expressed some sort of sympathy for Obama. All three realized this was a hit job.

I wonder what the other undecideds thought about the program.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. In my extended family
in PA, we are down to one last Clinton supporter. And even she says that she thinks that Obama would do better against McCain.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
53. "We should not allow the corporate media interests, or republicans, or even the Clinton campaign, to
define it". Damn right!!

Just to add a little sunshine to this: I heard some idiot caller on C-Span explain that he wouldn't vote for Obama because this is America, and we shouldn't have a Muslim president.

The C-Span host actually corrected him, telling him that Obama is not a Muslim, and stating the church that he belongs to. Too bad more of our news media doesn't do things like that.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. It's a long fight.
Some rounds are tougher than others. But we are in good shape.

I was just at Hartwick College in Oneonta, NY. There was an interesting anti-war presentation, featuring the St. Patrick's Four, from Ithaca NY. Several student groups put on the program. Part of the discussion focused on what each of the three candidates -- Obama, Clinton, and McCain -- represented in terms of the future of the US war of occupation in Iraq. The people presenting, and everyone in the audience who spoke, were all in favor of Obama.

We need to keep working at the grass roots level, correcting the misperceptions that the media allows, and helping to frame the issues in the correct context.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
57. Thank you, H2O Man, for your activism. I just wanted to report to you that
Edited on Sat Apr-19-08 02:42 PM by Emit
ABC now has 19916 comments to the 'debate': http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/DemocraticDebate/comments?type=story&id=4666956

I had also been following this post at Kos (as well as posts about this here at DU):

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/16/13329/3501

And it seems many people are calling, writing and responding. We all need to be speaking out loudly and clearly.

Thanks again for all you do!

edit typo
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. It's an honor
to be on the same team with you. Thank you.
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