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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 04:48 PM
Original message
The Problem With Super Delegates
Hunter S. Thompson spelled it out very clearly back in 1972. They can be bought.

If your price is a lifetime appointment as a judge on the U.S. Circuit Court, your only hope is to deal with a candidate who is so close to that magic 1509 figure that he can no longer function in public because of uncontrollable drooling. If he is stuck around 1400 you will probably not have much luck getting that bench appointment…but if he’d already up to 1499 he won’t hesitate to offer you the first opening on the U.S. Supreme Court…and if you catch him peaked at 1505 or so, you can squeeze him for almost anything you want.
Hunter S. Thompson Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail ’72


There is a problem with this system, though. Even in the “good old days” Democrats were known to look for dirt on Super delegates, and if they found some---or if they set you up with an underage call girl and took pictures

When that happens, you’re fucked. Your price just went down to zero, and you are no longer an Uncommitted delegate.


In this system, the front running Democrat has all the cards. He (or she) is the one who can make promises. So, last year Clinton could accumulate SDs, seeing as she was the sugar mama. This year, we will see them drift away from Clinton and flock to Obama, since he is now the sugar daddy. That it is all well and good. The system was designed to work that way. It encourages the SDs to reward the perceived popular winner, creating an effect much like that of smashed insects clinging to the windshield of a car that is speeding down some west Texas highway. The wider the car is and the farther it travels, the more squashed bugs it accrues. If two cars are in a competition, say a Cadillac going 100 mph and Yugo going 55 mph, the Cadillac is going to win in a contest of shear bug mass.

The blackmail part is not supposed to be undemocratic either, since the candidate with the most resources---that means money, although Democrats do not ordinarily like to boast about money, this year is some weird exception—is also the candidate who is best able to hire detectives and do oppo and muscle SDs. He (or she) is the one who can expect people to come forward and whisper “So and so is an SD and I know for a fact that he did x, y and z. You will remember me when you are elected, right?” So that just adds to the momentum of the front runner, by allowing her (or him) to give a not so gentle nudge to those SDs who are being greedy and attempting to hold out for bigger or better favors for their votes.

The problem we face this year is that we, the Democratic voters are not the ones who are selecting the nominee. As I have attempted to show in a series of journals, the RNC under the leadership of Karl Rove decided that their only chance to continue the War for Oil in Iraq and Keep Americans Unhealthy and Prevent Bush and Co. From Being Tried as War Criminals was to recreate the election of 1972, using the Pat Buchanan CREEPY strategy. In order to control the vote, the Republicans have used their whores in the press. Edwards was targeted as the Muskie. In The Press v. John Edwards I show how he was driven from the race through a combo of Big Lies such as Edwards is a phony and a media blackout. Obama was targeted as the McGovern—the candidate whom Rove thought he would have the easiest time smearing in the General Election---so the MSM was instructed to give him unprecedented free, favorable coverage of almost rock star quality all through 2007 designed to build up a youth cult following like that which George McGovern had. Clinton was the designated Hubert Humphrey, with a solid Democratic base following. If Hillary was the subject of smears which appeared to come from sources within the Democratic Party as in this Buchanan memo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/watergate/stories/buchananmemo.htm

The preparation of attacks on one Democrat by another


It would tear the Democratic Party apart as it was torn apart in 1972, when Hubert Humphrey’s base---union members, working class Democrats and African Americans---either stayed home or voted for Nixon. They were too angry at the way that their beloved Humphrey had been vilified by McGovern supporters to vote for the nominee.

Looking back, it may be hard for some people who were not born then to realize that poor old solid Democratic Hubert Humphrey was widely reviled in 1972. The slurs that are being heaped upon Clinton are exactly the same as the ones visited upon Humphrey. War monger. Republican. Dirty trickster. Corrupt. Thompson conjured images of suitcases full of money from mobsters. Hell, Humphrey might as well have been Nixon in the eyes of McGovern supporters. Worse than Nixon, even.

Looking back 36 years, we can laugh at those silly hippies. What are people going to do when they look back 36 years at 2008, when self style Democratic liberal writers have called the Clintons NeoCons and the same as Bush? Of course, we only have the writers' word for it that they are Democrats, the way that the people in 1972 could only assume that the attacks were coming from within the party. The nation was to learn a year later that many of the attacks came from GOP moles and from CREEP.

But I digress. The problem with SDs is that they can be blackmailed, and we know who runs the biggest blackmail operation in the U.S. right now. If you said the Clintons via the Arkansas mafia, go stand in a corner. Yes, I know that Dick Morris says that. But Dick Morris sucks toes for a living at FOX. Clinton’s campaign coffers are bare. It takes serious money to run that kind of oppo. The biggest blackmail ops in our country is taxpayer funded and is located in a room at AT&T. Dick Cheney set it up first thing after he and Bush stole the 2000 election. Thanks to their illegal domestic spying operation they can read every phone call, email and fax that every Super delegate has made for the last seven years. This gives them access to secrets that a lot of people would rather remain secret.

And all that the RNC asks for its silence is that a SD cast his vote for one of two perfectly acceptable candidates. That isn’t too bad.

Eliot Spitzer was a warning to all SDs. Play by Karl Rove’s rules or we will out you. We do not care how powerful you are or how rich your daddy is. The story that he was caught through bank transactions was deliberately thin. He is not going to trial, because a trial would reveal that the bank transaction story was a lie. He was found out through warrantless wiretaps. His story is meant to serve as a warning to other SDs. When you get the call from a representative of the RNC telling you that it is now time to move the chess piece here or there you had better do it, because we will out you the same way we did Spitzer. And the Democratic base will not rally to your support, because they are too busy rooting for their candidates and cheering when the other guy or gal loses an SD---even if it is because of death.

Consider how tenuous our control over our own primary is. Karl Rove has used the press to hijack the vote. He knocked out Edwards and then he had his whores start in with Hillary is a bitch and on cue a bunch of Democrats nodded their heads just like the mindless clones in the Ridley Scott 1984 Mackintosh ad and intoned Yes, Hillary has always been a bitch. And we have always been at war with Oceana.

Last night’s ABC debate was a rude awakening for the Obama camp. It showed that at any time, the press can change the narrative. Last night, Obama supporters were horrified to see the story change from Hillary is a bitch to Obama is a cheater . They were not prepared. They had assumed that the press was enthralled with their candidate. It did not occur to them ( as it had to a lot of people with more experience with our corrupt news media) that the industry was just following a script which went We will knock out Edwards first, then take out Hillary, then start softening up Obama for McCain .

The press can be controlled, which means that the popular vote can be manipulated. Florida’s votes are out (and Michigan’s because they copied Florida), because of the GOP, which means that the Democratic Primary as a whole can be manipulated. And Karl Rove can hijack the Super delegate vote, too.

Think about it.

Now, think about the one thing that Pat Buchanan and Nixon did not want the Democrats to do in 1972----come together. They did their best to create a fractured party, one in which key portions of the Democratic base would either not vote for the nominee (Blacks because of their loyalty to Humphrey) or voted for Nixon (unions and working class). They did this by convincing Humphrey supporters that McGovern supporters had cheated, smeared, slandered and disrespected a party stalwart.

Here is what the November 2008 election could be. McCain poaches Democratic working class voters and woman, both of whom are angry that Obama has smeared, slandered and disrespected a party stalwart. This gallup poll shows that McCain already has the potential to steal working class Democratic votes from Obama.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106381/Obama-Education-Gap-Extends-General-Election.aspx

If Humphrey had been McGovern’s running mate in 1972, he might have had a chance. The Pat Buchanan divide and conquer strategy would have failed. All those Democratic supporters who switched to Nixon would have stayed with their own party.

It is up to Obama and Clinton to save the Party--and the country from four more years of Bush policies. Telling Clinton “Get out of the race!” is not the answer. At this point, her supporters hear those words as Get the hell out of the race you skank lying cheating bitch Sorry, but I am not the one who has been writing the vitriol at the Huffington Post that has a chunk of the Democratic base up in arms (and which has to make you wonder if there is an RNC mole or two on staff at that publication). The only way to bring this party together is for the two candidates to sit down and have peace talks in public.


Maybe Bill Moyer could mediate. Two or three hours talking about serious issues, finding common ground, dealing with their frustrations. And maybe they can work out something.

Because we can not rely upon the SDs to save us. Playing “by the rules” ain’t gonna cut it, when the Republicans have already hijacked our Democratic primary.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Obama has an insurmountable lead in delegates which is THE legal metric.
It's time Hillary pulls up her socks and accepts her defeat so the Democratic Party can turn our attention to McCain.

Wishing and hoping for a superdelegate coup d'etat is undemocratic.
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NewHampshireDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Here we go ...
Playing “by the rules” ain’t gonna cut it, when the Republicans have already hijacked our Democratic primary.


You've pretty much done everything except say 'We must destroy the Democratic Party to save the Democratic Party.' Nice job laying the foundation for the dolchstosslegende myth--how long before we hear HRC saying 'I didn't leave the Democratic Party--it left me' and we see you cheering on the sideline?

Of course, you can wash your hands of the whole mess and lay it at Obama's feet because the candidate who was winning didn't roll over for the candidate who was losing.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I agree. The piece is full of shit.
The writer seems neither to understand Hunter S.'s disgust nor to realize that Humphrey was a wretched, pro-war candidate.

Laugh at hippies who resisted Humphrey's Vietnam war lust? McCamy, I'm laughing at you.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Are you laughing at the Killing Fields? That is what Gene's splitter attitude got us in '68.
We were hippies too. I remember how some people, mostly those with not a lot to lose economically speaking fell for Nixon's "secret plan" lie even though history told them that the old commie hater would never leave SE Asia without being dragged out kicking and screaming.

1968 should have been Humphrey's but a bunch of self righteous McCarthy supporters took their votes and sat out. My democratic family was for McCarthy, but we switched our support as soon as Humphrey was nominated. That is the difference between solidarity and being divided and conquered.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Sorry - your simplistic dismissal
it not up to the task. It is possible to reach different conclusions but you have not shown how or why.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. Humphrey was a "wretched, pro-war candidate"???????????
Edited on Fri Apr-18-08 02:32 PM by Gman
You epitomize why Obama supporters have no credibility. Too often they tend to posteriorly confabulate.
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nonoxy9 Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. You're Right on a couple points: It is up to Clinton and Obama to save the party, but
when one Democratic candidate is going to Fox news and Melon Scaife (2 media outlets that have RUTHLESSLY attacked the Clintons for years), and is getting scumbags like Rush Limbaugh going out of their way to keep this fight going, does this not raise a HUGE red flag about that candidate's credibility and devotion to the party?
It does for ME!

BTW- Thank you for making the last couple posts shorter and more to the point. Seriously.
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't know
what Thompson was talking about, but it certainly wasn't superdelegates, as they didn't exist in 72.

The comparison with 68 is bogus. People voted for Nixon because he promised to get us out of Vietnam, not because of anything that was said about Humphrey. McCain is promising to keep us in Iraq for 100 years. The two situations could hardly be more different.
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odelisk8 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. the idea
is that a BROKERED convention, as 72 was, results in this sort of thing among delegates who must SWITCH loyalties to get a clear winner...no reason why this doesn't apply to the superdelegates...
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. About time I said something about your writing.
I mostly read your stuff, but I rarely comment. In some instances I just plain disagree with you; in others, I waver; sometimes I agree with some of your points but not others. But you always make me think. I really admire the depth of your work, and consider it a great contribution to DU. This time out, you did an admirable job of drawing the parallels between 1972 and the present--but I'm really not sure how good the fit is. For one thing, Obama just isn't George McGovern (whom I campaigned for, BTW). There isn't an alienated hippie subculture like '72. A lot of things. Nevertheless, I can imagine Rove trying to replay the '72 game. But, even if your analysis of the problem is right, I don't know that your solution works.

Mostly, though, I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for giving me such interesting material to wrestle with.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Well put. Thanks
.
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Stardust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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guyanakoolaid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. The slurs that are being heaped upon Clinton are exactly the same because they fit!
Warmonger indeed. She started the vicious nasty attacks as well, and repeated them long before Obama ever responded in kind. That, on top of her repeated pro-war votes (IWR, Kyl/Liebermen), more than earns her the social justice she is now receiving.

And we could have avoided recent and future nastiness if Hillary would just accept the math.

You talk of tearing the party apart, but nothing would accomplish this more than superdelegates overriding the wishes of the people.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
11. Then you should call on your candidate to drop because she would need to do more favors for more SDs
to pull this thing off.
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uberblonde Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. That's completely wrong.
Obama has spent over $600K in contributing to super delegate's campaign chests - THREE TIMES what Clinton has donated.

Why do Obama supporters insist on their childlike dream of innocence and perfection? Grow up, kids. Your guy is doing the same things.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
12. I wonder how many of the people who comment on this
Edited on Fri Apr-18-08 04:14 AM by JoFerret
actually read it.

Folks - it is worth reading. Even if you reach different conclusions along the way.

Thanks.
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I have read the piece, JoFerret and it's excellent although outdated...
...since it's no longer 1972 {I was only 10-years-young then} but 2008; a new decade and so many advanced technologies later.

It might have been true that the GOP were able to get away with defining the Democratic Party back then {just like the pro-DLC Clintons have worked hard to do now} but the piece, therefore also the reasoning, is painfully outdated.

The OP and you seem to forget the evolution of the Internet and websites and web-logs that offer information readily available 24/7 with just a click. Why do you think Obama is so popular with the young folk?

They're armed with Blackberries, Sidekick and cell phones with internet access and are savvy Internet surfers. Follow the youth in this. Their unbiased but ever curious minds are all that we need to come to our initially superficial conclusions in making the right choice for this country. After that, we can use our more mature but also somewhat biased brains to make our choice.

I don't like the fact that the OP is trying to lay the blame for the negative tone in the Democratic campaign at my feet while absolving Hillary and her campaign of any "evil doing".

Fact of the matter is, I never went negative on her until she started all that flack against Obama while swooning for McShame. I didn't like it that she called Kerry up the eve of the 2004 Presidential election to tell him not to contest the Ohio results {according to Brad Friedman of Bradblog} and was confounded that only MY Senator from California, Sen. Barbara Boxer was standing all alone with the Black Caucus and other House members to contest Ohio's corrupt results.

It's time the Clinton's understand that the DLC no longer holds any sway with the American people. It's time they see we've found them out, and it's time she do the right thing for ONCE and step aside to support her fellow Democratic Senator, concentrating instead her vicious venom on McShame rather than Barack.
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. I find it interesting that Clinton supporters are now completely against SDs
When this was their only chance to win and their primary strategy over a month ago.

How the tables have turned.

Rp
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dlfuller Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. hypocrites and liars
Hypocrites and liars are now finally being outed by the internet directly to the public. No more MSM filtering to cover up. As someone who was alive and voting during the Nixon years, I second the previous comments about Humphrey being a war monger and establishment goon. If people see commonality between Clinton and him why maybe it's because there is.

The more time passes the more evidence surfaces that what was told in public about issues of concern over the history of this country were lies, told to save face, promote an agenda that could not succeed in the light of day, or just for money.

Now if we can just enable more real history education....
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. Interesting that over half of the responses have no star
next to their name, which is characteristic of many Obamabots.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-18-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
20. A great deal of the support here at DU is from republic disruptors and trolls
Edited on Fri Apr-18-08 02:46 PM by Gman
I'd even venture to guess that the most vocal and aggressive of Obama's supporters here are GOP operatives. They characteristically have no star, a couple thousand posts (from repeatedly attacking Hillary supporters and spouting off about Obama), and joined in the last couple of years at most. There are some who fit the profile but have a star. No doubt from giving $5 to DU to get that star to appear to be legitimate.

Oh yes, there are a great many republic trolls on DU "supporting" Obama, who they perceive is the weakest candidate of all, and he is. You can bet on this as the surest thing you will ever be able to bet on: The day after the election in November, you won't see or hear, hide nor hair from any one of them. Their work will be done here at DU for 2008.

And a lot of people here at DU will look really foolish.
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