Lapel Pin, National Anthem, Ayer, Wright, Somali garb...

[question everything]

Yes, all are trivial issues that do not advance the debate.

But don't you, the Obama supporters, realize this will be the daily barrage from Rove once he is in a race against McCain?

Rove has shown us several times that this is how he wins elections, diverting from the real issues to trivia. And, after all, it is a lot easier to talk about the a lapel pin, or about sermons and bombs, than about the complex issue of outsourcing, trade agreements, pensions, even the Iraq War.

This is what happened with Kerry. He quickly became our presumptive nominee, decided (or his handlers decided) to concentrate on his Vietnam heroism while ignoring, or not thinking, the other criticism of his, even though that swifter went head to head with him on a talk show back in the early 70s.

That Obama was ready with the response that Bill pardoned two Weather underground, and about that hand written comment about gun control, shows that someone is paying attention.

So what if Stephanopoulus channeled Hannity. Does any one thing that what Hannity is saying would not be repeated later in the campaign?

That even if, from now on, only real issues would be discussed, whether with Hillary or with McCain, doubts about these other points won't be circulated and whispered about?

If Obama is such a leader and a smart man, he'd better anticipate these questions and be ready to face them head on. In fact, even if they will not be raised by McCain himself, he'd better address them, just as he did with Wright. No, it does not have to be a major speech to the nation, but he should not "shrug" them off his coat or sweep them under the bed. Because they are there and we've seen that elections are often won by trivia like "a buddy to drink beer with."

[Kool Kitty]

1. And look what happened when the sheeple "elected"

someone they thought they would like to have a beer with. Look at what a picnic the last 7+ years have been.

[BeatleBoot]

2. Obama Supporters Get It

They just choose to do this:

[Nedsdag]

29. Funny.

Those guys in your pictures look like Hillary supporters.

As a matter of fact, that's Howard Wolfson and Harold Ickes under the sand.

[BeatleBoot]

31. Sorry Charlie.

Back away from the Kool-Aid




"Splish-Splash, I was Jim Jones"

-- Iggy Pop, 1980.

[Nedsdag]

34. You have got to be kidding!

You are such a Hillary Kool-Aid drinker, you can see it seeping out of your pores.

Can you tell me anything Hillary has done wrong? Of course not. YOU'RE the one who is drunk on the Hillary Kool-Aid.

[polpilot]

37. Obama supporters are fearless of McCain because of watching Obama dismiss Hill.

[BeatleBoot]

44. I can tell you thousands of things she's done wrong.

Or you could read about it yourself. It's all out there in the open.

My homework tells me we'll be hearing of more surprises from Mr. Obama.

And, by the by, the Clinton's beat the Nazi scum - not once - but twice.

No Kool Aid here, just being a realist.

[Nedsdag]

48. The Nazi scum lost in World War II.

The last I checked Hillary and Bill were born AFTER WWII.

It was their mishaps that led to the Right Wing noise machine to go after them.

Monica, missing billing records, the travel office.

When you have a gun pointed at you, don't give your enemies the bullets.

[BeatleBoot]

50. My reference to the Nazi scum

related to the GOP.

And the Clintons beat them twice.

[meow mix]

3. maybe dems wanted to hear about issues to make an informed decision.

instead we got freeper-nukes over and over and over, and you think its great.

congrats on supporting hannity and rush.

[question everything]

23. Except dems will not be the only ones electing a President in November

and those "other" folks are the ones who would listen to all the whispers

[stray cat]

4. The legitimate news channels shouldn't do Rove's job for him...

Americans should hold journalists accountable unlike the swift boat activists who brought down Kerry.

[otohara]

5. He'll Address

if it's truly important, he'll address it. I was so worried about the Wright thing and look what he did.

[global1]

6. When Obama Wins The Nomination And Hillary Throws Her Support To Him And The Dem Party.....

perhaps she will give Obama some tips as to how to handle Roves tactics.

It's funny - Obama was essentially saying that people are 'bitter' because of what their government has done to them - instead of focusing on what is really important to them - Rovian tactics puts the focus on 'wedge issues'. And what happened - lo and behold - Hillary jumped all over Obama and put the emphasis on that as a 'wedge issue'. Go figure!!!!

[Arrowhead2k1]

7. So out of fear of Republican thugs

we should bow down to Hillary and make her the nominee. Great logic!:banghead:

I for one will not be willing to just let the conservatives have their way with this one. Not this time because yes WE can.

[question everything]

24. Please show me where, in the OP did I say that Hillary should be the nominee

I used to think that this was a unique RW trait but apparently on DU, too. Reading what you think someone says, instead of actually reading the post.

I am not an Obama supporter, yet, but in no place in this specific post did I call for Hillary nomination.

[stillcool]

8. Of course we do!...

and I'm sure that we will react in the same manner. What is unusual is to have another Democratic Senator use those right wing smears against one of our own, and smear other Democratic Senators and supporters to hustle a few votes. Perhaps Senator Clinton, her supporters, and the media have done us all a favor. With each passing day they become less credible.

[NJmaverick]

9. I am not going to let fear tell me who to vote for!

I am going to vote for the BEST candidate.

[AlanJohnPrescott]

12. agreed!

Fear is the most powerfull filter/pollution in our political landscape!

Don't let anyone silence your votes!

Obama refused to allow a mich re-vote. Michigan & Florida voters will remember come November!

Obama chose to take hiis name off the ballot in michigan it was not requested or required he signed an affidavit removing his name!!

Sen.Majority Leader Emil Jones openly states Barack Obama is a made politician & all IL. Legeslative accomplishments are because of EmilJones.

Obama's associates like Rev Wright & Khalidi Rashidi & Bill Ayers & Bernadine Dohrn goes directly to his judgement


Hillary Clinton has been fighting for americans for thirty plus years-Obama has not.


I know who I shall vote for, and it is based on thinking things through and coming to my OWN conclusions... check the headlines from time to time, give NPR a listen!

http://www.unheardamericanvoices.com

[merh]

10. Rove endorses Hillary, where do you think she has

developed her loving ways?

And btw - by the time the GE comes around the populace will be so tired of all the negatives they will turn on the campaign that continues to use them.

[TML]

11. Don't you realize

That John McCain has more skeletons than a cemetery? I'm not worried. We can fling shit against the wind, too.

[Nitrogenica]

13. There is much much more to bash Hillary with, and they haven't started because

the right wants to run against Hillary, they all seem to believe she's easier to beat.

[graycem]

14. Let me ask you this..

Axelrod was a part of Hillary's 2000 senate campaign... He knows people and the political game as well as anyone. Do you honestly believe they don't have a substantial "scandal" file on the Clintons? Did it ever occur to you that he really is trying to raise the level of discourse, and he's doing so by not directly attacking a fellow Democrat? Do you really think they're not already working on efforts to take McCrazy down? Do you sincerely believe he will show the same restraint on McCrazy as he has to Hillary?

His campaign has been this smart, I find it impossible to believe they haven't studied previous campaigns and how they were won and lost. Using the Republicans smear attacks, because you're "afraid" the Republicans will use them in the fall, isn't helping anyone but the Republicans.

I am sure, that Obama's campaign as well as his supporters, (like me), recognize his vulnerabilities. But show me a perfect candidate and I'll dye my hair white, blink my eyes a gazillion times a minute, and start calling everyone "my friends." They ALL have imperfections to be exploited, and helping them exploit them is not a winning strategy. Why is this so difficult to comprehend? Stop trying to paint him as John Kerry. Kerry admitted that he didn't respond fast enough to the garbage they hurled at him. Obama will NOT make the same mistake.

You may not win elections by "having your head in the sand" but you also do NOT win them by being defeatist either.

[question everything]

26. It is not a matter of fear, but of be realistic

and by realistic I mean that most voters - not DUers - do not study all the details of their candidates or of ballot measures (in California). Too many voters follow the advice of friends, or their pastors, or, yes, their favorite talk show hosts.

They seek for easy catch phrases. All I said was that Obama has to be prepared for such questions, comments and, worse, whispers.

Even if the Clinton's campaign is behind many of these smears, the Obama campaign should be grateful to her for bringing these items early and up front. As I said, this was the problem with Kerry. I don't know if he would have won had he handled the Swifters better, but the reality is that he - or his campaign - did not.

[graycem]

45. You say realistic, I say fear..

because when we talk in these terms, again it allows the Republicans to frame it as fear and it makes us look weak. I'm tired of us being painted as the weak party. Maybe they're right? Maybe we are weaker than they are, because I guarantee you they are not sitting there "concerned" about the tactics we will use and the mud we will hurl at their candidate. They are simply preparing for battle, ready to attack ours, frame him as an elitist, pansy democrat who wants to take their guns, gods, and babies... just as they ALWAYS do, no matter who we run. That is one of the main reasons I'm liking Obama more and more. He is addressing this tactic head on, and calling it for what it is. He's doing this well in the game with some democrats hurling these same things at him. Imagine how well he'd be doing if he weren't fighting against 3 people right now, because that is effectively what he is doing, yet he's still winning. I think he can "take the heat." He hasn't even had to play dirty to do it. Not to mention when he's in the same room with McCrazy. The differences will be stark.

[doublethink]

15. Hillary has too many of these ........

in here own closet. And because the Obama campaign refuses to play this Rovian game with Hillary ..... her closet hasn't even started to be addressed. Point ..... The smear campaign on Obama has been played (by Hillary) already, the smear campaign against Hillary if she were to somehow to become the Dem nominee .... hasn't even begun.

Hillary is damaged goods with the Democratic party at this point which is point #2. Her blunders, dishonest campaign has done this to her, and she only has herself to blame. The SD's are realizing this more and more. It's over. Think we can thank the Bush administration (And Rove) for why America is tired of the distractions for the last 8 years. Took awhile but the public is finally catching on. NOT THIS TIME. Peace.

[Orsino]

16. He has anticipated these questions, and has handled them about as well as is possible.

That's him up there, out in front and still rising in the polls. He got ready for this long ago, it seems.

So who's smarter: the candidate who has already faced these trivial attacks head on, or the posters recycling failed tactics?

[rusty_parts2001]

17. I fear the Repugs are salivating at the prospect of an Obama

nomination. Here's a sample of the sh*tstorm they will throw at him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIcdXcg0-Kk

[mudesi]

18. Stop EXCUSING it

Everyone expects it from Rove. That doesn't excuse Clinton doing the same thing.

[grantcart]

19. This is the debate that the followers of McCarthy want

and to quote FDR I welcome their hate


but to have it come from inside the party constitutes the single greatest betrayal in our parties history.



We are legitimizing their tactics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5575573

[Bensthename]

20. I hate to burst your bubble. But Hillary has tons of baggage that O does not bring up.. Also,

McCain also has tons to attack.. So, don't let yourself think she has nothing to attack. I'm sure lots of us could point your attention to them if needed, but that wouldn't be very nice.

[WillyT]

21. Oh You Are SO Right... I'm Switching My Vote To, Hillary The Bosnarian !!!

NOT !!!



:shrug:

[yourguide]

22. Yes indeed we do know this...but what we didnt expect

are these BS right wing talking points out of the mouth of a supposed Dem like HRC.

[Hansel]

25. Handwringing over what Repubs might do is not the Dems Friend

This is why Democrats are seen as weak. Instead of framing the debate, we let Republicans do it and then respond from a defensive position. For example, why have Democrats allowed Republicans to get away with saying they are pro life? They are not. They are anti-abortion. But if we accept that terminology, why isn't John McCain simply "pro death" as he support war? Neither is true, but what the heck.

Why does the media get away with identifying people who vote for Republicans as "values voters"? All voters are values voters. All people have values. It's an idiotic term, but I haven't heard many Democrats challenge it. The DLC wrings it's hands and worries about how we can look more like we hold Republican values--like that's a winning ticket.

There is a huge constituency of people who have different values who would vote for Hillary, but rather than court them she throws them under the bus to prove to "value voters" that she's one of them. She is not. It's likely a more legitimate concern that voters she's insulted will not come out to vote for her. Showing contempt for Democratic values and activists while spouting right-wing talking points is not really a winning platform for a Democrat. Even if it does get her past PA.

I'm not willing to play the cowering battered spouse trying my hardest to guess which candidate the Republicans have the least ammo against. I'm voting for the candidate I think is more likely to change the rules of the game rather than play by the ones set forth by Rove. So far, that does not describe Hillary.

I have been lurking on this board daily since 2003 and I've got to say, I have never seen so many people trying to give legitimacy to right-wing talking points. And just when we are so close to changing the rules. It is really very interesting.

[question everything]

27. Welcome to DU and I have raised these issues many times before

One more recently about "value voters" across religion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3153871

We all have values and for many of us they develop from our inner convictions though I would accept that some of it, subconsciously, may have come from religious teaching, if not mine, then of my parents and teachers. However religion, or "because god said" has never been the justification.

Yes, I have never used the term "pro-life" and I wish that DUers would not use it, either. I have often called a poster on this. Similarly, I have used the phrase "late term abortion" instead of the emotionally charged ghastly "partial birth."

A few years ago someone suggested that we even need to change the term "choice" which may be borrowed from consumerism to a more emotionally loaded term like privacy.

Similarly, I have objected to both Hillary and Obama seeking bridges with Evangelicals Christians. These are people who live in absolute terms, because their "god" tells them how to live. They will never compromise. One does not compromise on "absolute truth."

This is one more area where Kerry, in my mind, flunked it. When asked about abortion he placed his hand on his heart and said that he, "personally opposed abortion," and this is how he lost credibility. I hope that Obama has a better response which should be a forceful support of the Supreme Court ruling and of woman's right to privacy, of effective teaching on how to prevent unwanted pregnancy and of taking cares of babies that are already here.

I agree that for too many years we, Democrats, have been in a reaction mode - except, perhaps, Bill Clinton. But to ignore what the Republicans are saying is foolish. This is what Kerry did in 2004. He chose to continue to talk about the economy instead of responding to the Swift Boat attacks. I don't know if he would have won the elections by facing them, but he did not and we will never know.

The Republicans will try to bring unrelated trivial topic, whether the nominee is Obama or Hillary and ignoring them could be the fast way for a McCain Presidency.

[anonymous171]

28. Remember how invulnerable John Kerry looked when they gave him the nom?

[Arugula Latte]

30. Okay. You've convinced me. Let's nominate Hillary, because EVERYBODY likes her & she has no baggage!

:rofl:

[shadowknows69]

32. Yeah we got it the first hundred times you HIllbots have offered us your false concerns

[Bjorn Against]

33. Maybe the GOP will use it, that doesn't make it right for Hillary or ABC to legitimize it.

And when they choose to go that route that is exactly what they are doing, they are making it easier for the Republicans to make these attacks seem legitimate. People will be able to say "see it is not just Republicans saying this". Anyone who chooses to go this route is no different than Karl Rove and his minions.

[Hawaii Hiker]

35. Fuck that fat pumkinhead Karl Rove, he couldn't save Republicans in 2006

when Democrats took over the House & Senate in the mid-term elections...Many just aren't buying his shit anymore, (though some certainly will)....

[ecdab]

36. Oh Noooooooooo! Scary Republicans, RUNAWAY, RUNAWAY!

Give me a break.

[BlooInBloo]

38. (shrug) He's beating one set of republican tactics, and he can do it twice. No biggie.

[Swamp Rat]

39. Right now, it is the daily barrage from Clinton supporters.

I am sure Rove, McCain, and all the knuckle-dragging dittoheads are very thankful.


:dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:



:dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:

[mainer]

40. Address Somali garb and flag pins? Oh, puh-lease

If this is the sort of stuff you want him to address, let's just forget talking about issues at all.

He DID address the Wright issue in a beautiful speech. And that didn't shut up the opposition, did it?

[Vinca]

41. Explain to me how Hillary will be any better re right wing smears.

The campaign against her boils down to 1 point for the Republicans: do you want Bill Clinton back in the White House? If Monica ever wanted to auction off the blue dress for a million bucks, now would be the time.

[question everything]

43. There is nothing to explain since nowhere in the OP did I express my support

for Hillary.

This was not the point of the thread and it is too bad that most of the responses chose to use a knee jerk reaction instead of actually reading the post.

[scheming daemons]

47. We've read the rest of your posts and KNOW you're a Hillary supporter.... so

the reaction isn't "knee jerk". Your post is being viewed through the lens of suspicion that a Hillary supporter is trying to spread F.U.D.

Which is exactly what you are doing.

[Occam Bandage]

42. The most irritating argument out of the Hillary camp: Right-wing bullshit is valid

because right-wingers might say it later.

That ignores the fact that the best way to reply to right-wing bullshit is to call it what it is: bullshit. It's bullshit whether it comes out of Hillary's mouth, Hannity's, or Stephanopoulos's.

[scheming daemons]

46. As I said in another thread..it's not 1988 anymore... or even 2004.. that shit won't work this time

[RichardRay]

49. Your concern is misplaced, and perhaps misguided...

I think you're playing the Republican's game for them in a losing effort to shore up the failing campaign of your preferred candidate. I have my ducks all lined up ready to march each and every time a Republican starts with any of those points, and if I do then I'm pretty damn certain Senator's Obama's campaign folks are ready for it.

You seem to be participating in an effort by Senator Clinton's supporters to claim that these issues are new and that Senator Obama's campaign hasn't addressed them: they aren't, he has, and he's ready to keep addressing them in the GE.

Just what would it take to alloy your concerns? I there anything Senator Obama, his campaign or his supporters could do to convince you that we have not 'swept them under the bed'? If there is, let us know, we'll try (again, some more). If there's not, then stop with the faux 'concern' and come and out say what you mean.