Bill Clinton blames Ethanol for "Pasta Riots" in Italy

[meow mix]

:shrug:


But Mr Clinton said: "What's really hurting the food markets is America moving into ethanol. People there are moving into corn and you have pasta riots in Italy related to what some people are doing in farming in America."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/07/nriots107.xml

[AllentownJake]

1. Well

I guess the Iowa caucuses are out for your wife in the future.

[meow mix]

7. **Clinton Link in Brazil Ethanol Probe**

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/11/clinton-link-in-brazil-et_n_90955.html

[meow mix]

25. **Clinton’s Efforts on Ethanol Overlap Her Husband’s Interests**

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28ethanol.html?ex=1361851200&en=7ad59388a3c0ae80&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

It was September 2006, and the Clinton Global Initiative, the annual star-studded networking event for philanthropists and investors, had generated commitments to spend billions on ethanol and other alternative fuels. Cast as good works, many were also investments by businessmen hoping for a profit.

One potential beneficiary is the Yucaipa Companies, a private equity firm where Mr. Clinton has been a senior adviser and whose founder, Mr. Burkle, has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for Mrs. Clinton’s campaigns. Yucaipa has invested millions in Cilion Inc. — a start-up venture also backed by Mr. Branson, the British entrepreneur, and Mr. Khosla, a Silicon Valley venture capitalist — that is building seven ethanol plants around the country. Two are in upstate New York.

In fact, Mrs. Clinton had long opposed ethanol subsidies, but in May 2006, she switched gears and introduced a bill to create a $50 billion “strategic energy fund” to expand the use of ethanol and other alternative fuels. The bill, which was reintroduced last year, would direct billions of dollars to develop cellulosic ethanol, an experimental fuel made from organic materials other than corn.

[meow mix]

27. **Bill Clinton approves nation's first ethanol research plant**

http://www.siue.edu/ALESTLE/library/summerMM/june28/clinton.html

The $14 million needed for the nation's first ethanol research plant to be built in University Park has been approved by President Bill Clinton.

Congress passed the bill last month to appropriate the $20-million plant. The remaining $6 million will be paid by the state of Illinois.

The plant will be a model of ethanol plants. Researchers will be allowed to use the plant and the equipment to experiment with ethanol.

Ethanol is derived from corn and is used an additive in gasoline.
Construction on the plant is set to begin October 2001.

[Skwmom]

50. So another MAJOR CLINTON MISTAKE. NAFTA, financial deregulation, now ethanol. How many more

Clinton mistakes can this country take?

[meow mix]

31. **2001 Budget Request $439 million to fund research and grants to promote the use of bioenergy**

http://www.ethanol-gec.org/spring2000/spr0002.htm

[Occam Bandage]

33. Well, first, not all biofuels are the same. Sugarcane-derived biofuels,

which are commonly used in Brazil, are energy- and acreage-efficient, and are cleaner than gasoline (which is why your link to Clinton's investments in Southern-hemisphere biofuels makes no sense here; sugarcane biofuels are great.) Switchgrass promises to be almost as efficient.

Corn-based ethanol, however, is inexcusably dirty and inefficient. And yeah, Clinton did offer funding for ethanol during his Presidency. So did Bush I. So did Reagan. So did Carter. So does Bush II. So will Obama or McCain. But that doesn't mean it isn't a bad idea, and Clinton's past support of corn biofuel does not mean he is wrong to say that it is harmful now.

[meow mix]

34. clinton has connections to human rights abused due to ethanol. in brazil..

it goes straight to thier corruption

[Occam Bandage]

35. Eh. He invested a few thousand dollars in a company that turned out to be corrupt.

Shit happens. Don't see how that's related to the OP, except that the process of turning plants into fuel is peripherally involved.

I'm sure I've invested money in companies that have abused workers. I had money in China (a few thousand dollars; I ain't rich) up until a few years ago, so I'm certain some of it went towards human-rights atrocities. However, I don't know which of my investments were fueling suffering, or how. If you put your money in the market, some of that capital is likely to fuel suffering somewhere, somehow. Some of that capital is also likely to improve lives somewhere, somehow. That's the way markets work.

[meow mix]

36. fosters a market with taxpayer money, then invests in it, now he trashes it.

yaay im so happy about this too.

[Occam Bandage]

39. Sugarcane ethanol isn't the same as corn ethanol.

That aside, it's hard to tell what you're upset about. You seem to be angry at the times he was in support of it, and angry at his recent turn against it. It seems what you're most upset about is the name Clinton.

[meow mix]

41. actually its this..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x143850

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=143720&mesg_id=143720

[rinsd]

43. Nicely done.

:thumbsup:

[barack the house]

2. Bio fuels are in fairness causing food shortages, it's a complicate nightmare...

If are using large amounts of food sources to run our cars then there is less of crtain foods in the world really.

[meow mix]

9. wrong. Energy Costs/Oil Prices are causing Higher Food costs.

Energy Cost is the main factor

[Occam Bandage]

18. The existence of one factor does not preclude another.

Energy prices are causing higher food costs, yes. At the same time, ethanol raises--and not lowers--energy prices, as it requires more energy to produce than it contains. Moreover, a full quarter of our corn crop goes to ethanol. That is millions of bushels of food--food that ought be entering the marketplace--being burned for no benefit.

I've gotta give Bill points on this one.

[meow mix]

21. Bill is the one who created ethanol production, funded the first plants.

now he's turning it into an attack on pro-ethanol obama. (hillary is pro as well)

[Occam Bandage]

22. Actually, Carter proposed it, I believe, and funding was secured in the 1980s. But that aside,

he's totally correct. He may be shameless, but he isn't wrong. Obama, Hillary, and Edwards all went pro-ethanol because they had to in order to be competitive in Iowa. They all took the wrong position for political gain.

Bill may be hypocritical here, but he isn't incorrect.

[SoCalDem]

52. But Carter proposed it as an adjunct to the REST of the things he wanted

Solar, higher CAFE standards, wind power, geo-thermal..and CONSERVATION..

Had we done ALL of it, and had Reagan not UNdone everything Carter set in motion, we would be a very different country 32 years later..

[Occam Bandage]

58. Absolutely agreed. If we had re-elected Carter, and if Carter had been able to effectively

shape a lasting American energy policy, America would be a much better place today. Didn't mean to bash Carter by any means; his energy policy was decades ahead of its time, and research into ethanol was a good idea then and remains a good idea now. It was only in the mid-eighties that we started to learn that corn ethanol was not an energy-positive fuel source.

The problem is widespread use of corn-derived ethanol as a gasoline replacement. That can be traced to the CAFE exemptions passed under Reagan.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. Ethanol is a bad idea anyway.

It's a net energy loser, not an energy source. It costs more energy to grow the source crops and to convert them to ethanol than is returned when the ethanol is used as fuel. As it is, ethanol production as encouraged by the US government is nothing more than yet another subsidy to corn farmers (which means to agricultural giants like Archer Daniels Midland). And the idea of promoting ethanol production as a way to reduce dependence on oil is just absurd; due to the factors of energy cost vs energy obtained, there is no viable replacement for oil. (Ethanol, as mentioned, is a net energy loser).

[Rosemary2205]

3. Well, he's right and he's wrong.

The cost of pasta isn't related to corn - but it's definitely related to the worldwide shift of farmers selling crops for ethanol rather than food.

Ethanol can go fuck itself sideways - and the folks on the left pushing it as "energy independence" can to do so too. We tried to tell them the world can't grow enough to food and energize itself yet.

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. Surely Russia and Canada are equally important grain exporters to the European market?

It's not like all of the wheat in the world comes from the US.

[MyNameGoesHere]

6. Canada produces half of wheat the US does

and Russia is not a constant supplier due to histories of crop failures. Actually China and India are the largest producers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. But for *durum* wheat, for pasta, it was, in 2005: Canada, Italy, USA, Turkey, ...

see the table at http://151.121.3.140/pecad/highlights/2005/07/durum2005/durum%20tables.htm

though the year-to-year amounts vary a lot - Spain and Morocco, 2 major producers, had their yield drop by over60% in 2005.

[MyNameGoesHere]

56. It's predictable but care to guess

what crop is increasing overall? I give you a hint they can add it to gasoline.

[Skinner]

5. My understanding is that he is correct.

It's all a matter of supply and demand. Ethanol increases demand for corn (and some other crops), and the price of corn goes up.

Some consumers respond to increased prices for corn by switching to other grains. The price of those grains goes up, too.

So, yes, ethanol is contributing to the global increase in food prices.

[meow mix]

10. Oil Prices/Energy Cost

Energy Costs is driving up prices, not Ethanol!

[Zynx]

15. Energy is a contributor, but so is ethanol.

There is absolutely no denying the effect of the ethanol policy.

[Skinner]

19. The rising cost of food is a very complicated thing.

I think we can both agree that there are likely multiple causes.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

26. The rising cost of fuel is a contributor

The use of ethanol is another. As is commodity market speculation and the drought in Australia as far as the price of pasta goes.

I'm sure there's more that I'm not thinking of right now.

[amandabeech]

30. Would you please provide a current cite that supports your position.

n/t

[meow mix]

38. we eat oil. we ARE oil. that is a fact

there are volumes written on the subject, im not even gonna start to rehash it LOL

[rinsd]

45. So its ok for you to ask for links but not others?

:shrug:

[amandabeech]

47. LOL yourself.

I haven't seen you over in the E&E forum or over at theoildrum.

There are serious supply and demand problems right now, in addition to speculation.

How those factors weigh right now against energy with wheat, not corn, is the issue.

Your post does not address those non-energy forces.

[crankychatter]

55. The Senate in Mexico City is occupied and under siege because of NAFTA policies

Those people can't buy a goddamn corn tortilla

small Farmers have been devistated

Clinton's anti-ethanol thing is POLITICAL MANEUVERING because of Obama's statements regarding ethanol and other alternatives...

pasta for chrissake

One might argue Obama needs to be better informed or even that his support of Ethanol was politically driven

That doesn't give the FATHER OF NAFTA a get out of jail free card

true or not... Clinton's a two faced dick... a font of disinformation

[crankychatter]

8. Rhodes Scholar becomes pontificating dipshit

film at eleven

I can raise his awareness in three words

NAFTA - MEXICAN FARMERS

[MaineDem]

11. From what I've read he's at least partially correct

I'm not an expert but I don't think he's completely off the mark. Corn and wheat prices are up because of the ethanol demand.

[Occam Bandage]

12. Bill Clinton is correct. Ethanol is a scam.

[meow mix]

16. link?

=)

[Occam Bandage]

20. To what? To studies showing that ethanol consumes more energy than it produces? To data showing

that a quarter of the American corn crop goes to ethanol? To voting records showing Congress repeatedly increasing funding for ethanol after reading NTSB/EPA reports showing that ethanol breaks for CAFE standards have actually increased pollution?

Which would you like links for?

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. There's a grain of truth in that (ho-ho)

I don't think there were 'pasta riots', but there was a protest, last September:

Pasta 'strike' shocks Italy

Italian consumer groups have called a one-day strike against buying pasta in protest at the increasing costs that have seen its price rise by almost 20%.

The groups are angry that, while the price of ingredients such as wheat is rising in the shops, the earnings of the farmers who produce them remain flat.
...
Economists say the price of pasta is being driven by rising worldwide wheat prices.

The demand for wheat is the result of several trends - chiefly an increasing demand for biofuels, which can be made from it - and improved diets in emerging countries where putting more meat on the table is raising the demand for feed for livestock.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/13/italy

Durum wheat itself can be used for biofuel:

The situation isn't likely to turn around any time soon. In a report released last week by the UN Food and Agriculture Organization, the report's authors pointed to biofuels as one of a host of factors (including population growth and steadily growing economies in the developing world) driving global consumption to outstrip grain production for the next 10 years.

"Production of renewable energy, in general, and biofuels in particular, has risen to the top of policy agendas in many countries and has become a major issue for markets," the report reads. The FAO expects the use of wheat for biofuel production in Europe will increase twelvefold by 2016. The biofuel boom has a cascade effect across the dinner table: as farmers turn more and more grain into ethanol, the resulting higher grain prices mean increases in everything from the spaghetti to the meat sauce as grain used for animal feed gets more expensive.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,493795,00.html

Whether durum wheat prices in Italy are affected by more corn growing in the USA, I'm not sure - according to this, in 1992 the USA produced 8% of the world's durum wheat, compared with 30% from the EU.

On edit: more up to date: in 2005, 10% from the USA, 28% from the EU. http://151.121.3.140/pecad/highlights/2005/07/durum2005/durum%20tables.htm

[meow mix]

17. Food costs are driven by OIL!

oil is what we eat.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. No, it's not as simple as that

Look at the graph of Canadian wheat price since 2000, on this website (page 1, right hand side): http://www.scotiacapital.com/English/bns_econ/bnscomod.pdf

It starts at about $3.5US per bushel in 2000, gradually creeps up to about $5 by mid 2007, and then spikes to over $20 by Feb 2008. That's not fuel costs driving that - it's a market that involves stocks, harvests, weather conditions, acreage planted, demand, and more.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

14. I'm not a fan of using food crops for fuel for this very reason.

Some links regarding the link between food cost and the use of ethanol.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060722/food.asp

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=biofuels&id=18173&a=

[JVS]

24. He's correct. Fidel Castro was ahead of this a few years ago saying that biofuels...

at least under the current schema will make it harder for the poor to afford food. And it wasn't just because his friend Chavez heads an oil exporting country.

[PVnRT]

32. ...well, he's right in this instance

The move towards using more corn for ethanol fuel is causing food shortages, but another chunk of it has to do with globalization. When countries are selling food to China and India because they get a better price, other places get hurt.

[Vinca]

37. I thought pasta was made from semolina wheat. nt

[meow mix]

40. Oil Prices are Driving up Wheat as well..

and everything else in the world. somehow oil is getting a free ride on this..i guess.

[yellowcanine]

46. Pasta is made from durum wheat. Semolina is also made from durum wheat.

But your basic premise is correct. On the surface, one would think that the price of durum wheat would not be linked to the price of corn, since durum wheat is not normally used as a feed grain. Se my seat of the pants analysis of cost factors below.

[Vinca]

48. I feel dumb. I actually knew it was durum wheat, but had a brain cramp

and typed semolina. The good news is, I bought organic semolina this morning at the local whole foods store and it's still $1.49/lb.

[yellowcanine]

42. It's a bit more complicated than that. Some of the factors.

Oil prices driving up cost of fertilizers, pesticides, transportation costs, etc.

Greater demand for from China for meat - higher demand for feed grains - drives up cost of food made from grains.

Drought (global warming by product) limiting production is some places - irrigation too costly - see fuel costs above.

Inflation of all commodity prices. The weak U.S. dollar is implicted in this somehow as well.

And yes ethanol - though this is not as much as thought, because ethanol by products can be fed to cattle and most of the corn in the U.S. was fed to cattle anyway. Even though some of the energy is obviously removed from the corn during ethanol production, the by product is actually more digestible than the original corn so the difference in feed value is essentially a wash - actually a slight advantage to the by product. Imagine that.



Bill Clinton should know better. It isn't just ethanol.

[meow mix]

44. right!

ty =)

[SoCalDem]

49. but but but but. I remember him campaigning in Iowa

once upon a time..and he LOVED ethanol.. pratically supported putting the stuff on cereal in the morning, and drinking it with dinner :rofl:

[QC]

51. Everyone who campaigns in Iowa loves ethanol.

That's why we probably should not allow Iowa a monopoly on choosing our candidates: they all have to sign up for ethanol subsidies to have any hope of winning.

[thunder rising]

53. People are hungry because WE EXPORT DEATH AND MISERY. We don't want them growing their own food.

[Pappy]

54. Everyone knows that Bush's ethanol plan was just another corporate welfare scheme

Ethanol and the environmental argument for it was just simply cover to jack up gas prices even more and give a big corporate handout to Monsanto and all the other big corn grower conglomerates. Now we have to pay big oil even more for gas, and are forced to use a more expensive product that gets worse gas mileage and in essence pollutes even more. Who honestly ever thought we would have enough corn to satisfy all our cars, and that putting in "up to 10%" corn in gas would make a lick of difference. Sorry Bush, we see through this one also.

[rodeodance]

59. Did you see Sen. Grasley beemed from ear to ear when Bush announced

his plan at the state of the union address?

[Pappy]

61. No I didn't , what was his plan?

Sorry don't watch Smirk on TV.

[Confusious]

57. Ethenol

Your going to have to burn more ethanol to get to the same place then you would have to with gas. Means more food converted to gas, less to eat. We have to give up our cars.

[rodeodance]

60. actually there have been several msm media reports about the OP--saying

the same thing--or similar.

[apocalypsehow]

62. Bill Clinton is spot-on in his analysis of this situation. Create a huge demand for something, and

the supply starts to tighten and get more expensive - especially when you're subsidizing it to the tune of billions upon billions of Federal tax dollars.

[Mimosa]

63. Farmland being diverted from food to biofuel causes high prices, starvation

Bill Clinton is correct on this one.

In Haiti the poor people are eating dirt patties and there have been food riots.


Subsidies have been paid to divert farmland used for foodcrops to growing corn and other crops to biofuels. This makes the biofuel crops more profitable. On this issue both Al Gore and George W. Bush pimped for biofuels as a 'cure' for petroleum addiction. Has anybody else seen "Who Killed the Electric car?"? it's very enlightening.

Here's an informative (and sad) article on the biofuel topic from the International herald tribune:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/17/news/Haiti.php

[Adelante]

64. Ethanol is causing tremendous problems in Mexico

The price of tortillas has doubled as a result of corn being grown for the US market and people are very angry here.