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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:56 PM
Original message
Just Another Woman Who Doesn't Know Her Place
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 12:13 AM by NanceGreggs
It is oft said that recognizing a problem is the first step in overcoming it.

Apparently, I have a problem – and although I still don’t see it as such myself, I am constantly reminded by others that it exists. I don’t know if that counts, but I am willing to explore the possibility.

My problem seems to be that even though I am a female, I don’t support Hillary Clinton.

I have been told, countless times, that this means I am (a) a self-loathing woman, who is (b) jealous of Hillary’s many accomplishments, that I (c) don’t appreciate the fact that if Hillary loses the nomination there will never be another female candidate for the presidency, (d) I am a blatant sexist, who (e) just generally doesn’t understand that independent, free-thinking feminists should dutifully dispense with things like independent free thought and simply put their support behind the woman candidate whether they think she is qualified or not.

I have tried to reconcile this kind of mindset with my own sense of independence, and try as I might, I cannot seem to adapt to the notion that if I base my support for a candidate on gender alone I am somehow advancing the cause of women’s rights or equality between the sexes, or engaging in some kind of convoluted self-preservation of not only my own womanhood, but everyone else’s.

I admit that if Hillary was championing women’s rights while her Democratic opponent, Obama, was advocating an overturn of Roe v Wade or the 19th Amendment, I might have a different view of things. But she’s not, and he’s not – so where gender comes into play here is, alas, beyond my comprehension.

But to hear the Hillary camp tell the tale, truly liberated women are those willing to abandon their independent thoughts and support “one of their own” in a nomination process that, according to them, isn’t a matter of candidate v candidate, but a matter of boy v girl.

The true feminist – again from the “Bible According to the HRC Camp” – is she who steadfastly resists the temptation to look behind the rhetoric, scrutinize policies, investigate positions with a view to determining whether they agree or disagree, and simply puts her full support behind the candidate who possesses the same genitalia.

I guess I’m just confused. I’d always thought that being an equal-and-independent woman meant determining my own course, and putting my support behind a candidate based on my own criteria, and not someone else’s – male or female. But now I am constantly berated for doing just that.

Apparently, I am not supposed to blindly follow the dictates of males – but I am supposed to blindly follow the dictates of fellow females, and do so without question.

I guess I’m just not getting it. I’m not getting the idea that although I am independent, I am duty-bound to depend on the opinion of others who happen to share my gender. I’m not getting the concept that I have to ignore my own beliefs and unquestioningly adhere to the beliefs of a handful of fellow women. I’m not getting the notion that if I put aside my own thoughts and embrace the thought processes of others I am thereby liberated.

Like I said, I have a problem – or so I am told. I just can’t shake this crazy idea that I, as a woman, am free to support whomever I deem to be the most qualified candidate, regardless of their gender. And I just can’t fathom how that sensibility equates to an admission that I am under the yoke of male supremacy.

In any event, despite my problem, I still support Barack Obama. I guess that makes me, in some quarters, a stiff-necked, obstinate woman, one who will obviously never learn her place as determined by the so-called feminists who have taken it upon themselves to dictate exactly what my place should be.


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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wow, Nance. (c) must be SO AWFUL you can't even write it, huh?
nudge-nudge...

heheh

Excellent, as always!

nitpickily,
Bright
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
62. Huh?
    (c) don’t appreciate the fact that if Hillary loses the nomination there will never be another female candidate for the presidecy
???

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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #62
142. hint: check the edit time. and my message time. n/t
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. Apparently our place has something to do with banging pots and pans
:rofl:

Great rant Nance. Recommended :hi:
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. .
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. I have it on good authority that you and I and others like us
are self-loathing bitter women who are ashamed of ourselves for not achieving the glory that is Hillary Clinton. So :toast: here's to us!
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Not so sure it's on "good authority", but I too am guilty.
and now I feel guiltier because I could only laugh at the line "the glory that is Hillary Clinton"!

Here's to ALL of us :toast:
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dmr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
217. With their twisted thinking, we'd have to vote for Katherine Harris
or Laura Bush should they decide to run anytime in the future.

Makes me shudder to even write that!

Anyway, an independent woman will vote for whomever she trusts will do the best job - not for any sense of collective womanhood. To suggest otherwise, as people did with Nancy, disrespects all that has been accomplished throughout the years.

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well, Nance - I'm glad you know it'll be your fault when Hillary fails.

:patriot:

Another fine analysis...


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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. OOps - K&R
:kick:
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. My dear Nance!
Great thoughts as usual!

The sex of the candidate should have nothing to do with anything!

Who is the best for the job?

That is the question we should be asking...


BTW, you left out (c)...:yoiks:


K&R

:patriot:
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #6
95. True... except for one thing...
The "best for the job" didn't even run this year.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #95
182. What, a southern white male?
Who would vote for a creature like that? Might as well vote for McCain!
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
7. Ha! You must have read the same post I did earlier
I just told 'em "codswallop." I believe your essay is a much more elegantly phrased rebuttal. K&R
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. Rant on, sistah!
I support Obama too, so apparently I am another woman who doesn't know her place. :But then, I was never very good at the whole "women's place" thingy.

:)

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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. Nance, I am not getting it either
I was told early on, that if I didn't get Hillary, apparently I wasn't a women.
Great follow up, cheers to you.:toast:
Me and hubby share the same name
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. Nice post, Susan B. Anthony
Now go knit me a sweater!



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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Are we moving our stuff from the other dorm?
Or are you guys just ditching me again?
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. No, no
We're just getting the Wii set up and ordering the pizzas. The keg will be chilled to perfection when you get here. We're counting on you to bring the chronic, though. Please don't produce another bag of oregano that some guy behind the tuck shop assured you was primo Michoacán. I still have a headache from smoking that stuff last time.

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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. I'm bringing the shredded tough tread truck tire from the "tuck shop"
It'll blast yer ass to Lucy in the sky. And we can afford it, dude.

I've gotta buy books this semester, gaddamit.

I'm taking women's studies with that stone-fox Ms. Greggs!
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. Aw hell, at this hour, I'll sniff drain cleanser. We post-slacker generation
of Obamanautatronatonabotapod people just want to get high.

(And guess what, you geezers out there? We're not afraid to fucking admit it. In your face!

I can't wait for Obama to win so he can sell some fucking kickass weed right from the Awful Office. This cult fucking rawks.)


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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. screw the sweater
I want a pie!!!!
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I'll get her on that right away.
As a tool of the patriarchy, she's used to hauling ass when I lay down the law.

(that's sarcasm, for the inevitable buzzards already sizing up this thread for a carrion party!)

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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #25
49. and I want Tammy Wynette cookies as well
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #49
57. K
:thumbsup:

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Here ... try this on.



:rofl:

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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Beautiful!
Though I worry that horizontal stripes make me look fat, and perhaps a little canine.

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. Well put.
I try and tell people that I don't vote according to gender (I'm male) but support Obama and I don't view her as a victim but someone with power and they tell me I"m not giving Hillary Clinton due respect by supporting her because I'm a sexist or misogynist. It's so ridiculous but how do you prove it? It's quite simple really. I don't agree with the organization she is a leader of (DLC) and I have some issues with the Clintons as a whole. For instance, I would vote and work for Barbara Boxer in an instant if she ran for president over just about any male candidate I know. It's something I can't prove since she isn't running but I figure maybe sometime in the future I can prove them wrong but not this election. I do not support Hillary Clinton (but I also don't support George bush who is male). I thank you for expressing the situation better than I can because your genitalia is different from mine. Thanks for speaking for all us who are voting for Obama on his merits.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. I think that most of her supporters have spoken for themselves about all of that
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 12:16 AM by bigtree
Whoever said those things to you needs to be confronted directly. I've never seen this 'bible' you speak of. I've never seen any movement in this campaign to force women to follow a some Hillary Clinton 'dictate'.

Of course, you're not just disparaging those women who might have such affinities for Hillary Clinton and her candidacy. If someone wants to declare themselves 'liberated', it shouldn't limit your own expression of liberation or whatever for your own ambition in this campaign.

In fact, those 'so-called feminists' you feel so threatened by haven't limited your ability to express and promote your own bias against them at all. You sure put them in their place.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
55. Bravo.
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sakura Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
15. K and R
From another woman who's just not getting it.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. K&R.
Here's a beer, lady! :toast:
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. It's your choice who you support. I don't see the big deal. Of course
black supporters of Hillary Clinton are being harassed and called names, threatened, etc., because they are apparently "supposed" to support Obama. Both attitudes are stupid.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. You said it!
People are free to choose who they want, regardless of their race or gender, or the race or gender of this choice.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
18. Codependency ... it's not just for breakfast anymore.
:rofl:
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
20. Amen, sister.. I was called racist AND sexist in ONE thread
:)

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. You're killin' me.
:rofl:
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #20
88. ROFL...
coffee all over keyboard. Thanks for that.:spray:
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Eric Condon Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
26. Kicked and Recommended into eternity. nt
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
27. The strangest form of this isthe attack on women Super Delegates who support Obama.
Blogs invariably have people complaining that "Representative --------- should support Hillary because she got money from Emily's List".


Isn't it strange that a movement designed to liberate women instead reduces them to objects that should be purchased with campaign donations? Isn't there a word for that kind of transaction that involves selling something of your essence against your better interests for money? I know there is but it escapes me now.
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Psst_Im_Not_Here Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
29. Yep, uh-huh, absolutely
What she said. :applause:
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
31. K & R - great rant! (n/t)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. That cat is voting for Barack just because he's black!
:D I wan to pet dat widdee foofer! :bounce:
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #34
114. Heh.
That's not my kitty - but he looks EXACTLY like him. If his personality is any similar - he'd love a pet -n- scratch session with any human who'll oblige. (or he'll swat your leg until you give in)
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
32. Apparently, like me, you must hate your own mother.
Or so I've been told.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
33. Uppity women untie!
:toast:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Uh-oh...
HEEEEERE we go.

"untie". :rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. You're going to need that updated, revised and rebound manual.
:rofl:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Bondage, huh?
I think you got that right.

I suppose it's just a matter of time before I'll be lifting Henny Youngman jokes. :rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. "Please release me, let me go . . ."
:hi:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. You TWO ...
... (and we all know who you are) are KILLIN' ME!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. I'm sorry to intrude my betrothal problems into your thread.
But Kurovski JILTED me today.

Maybe next time before you go and foreswear someone, you'll think about the little people.

:rofl:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. So my wife says to me, she says...
"gimme your PASSWORD to that goddam DU thing you do!!! I wanna see if yer messin' around with the LADIES, you fat lousy fuck!"

And she sees this "sfexpat" broad talkin' ta me and she blows a goddam gasket!! :shrug:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. You owe me $20 for services rendered then.
:rofl:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. In Canadian, even! Don't hafta gotta ask.
Dat's how much I loves youse, baby! :loveya:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #48
147. The "services rendered" being filing fees.
Merely for the paperwork. Just clerical stuff. That's all. I'm Innocent.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
42. I almost forgot - K&R! n/t
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
43. This sort of whining looks so ridiculous considering Obama is black
please stop embrassing yourself with the faux outrage and concentrate on REAL sexism that exists rather than cry wolf.

Hillary is losing because she is Hillary, not because she is a woman.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
45. Are you sure Hillary is not championing women's rights?
Did you see this?
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/women/

Not only does she have a lifetime of experience, she even has a speech she made in 1995! While Obama is so retrograde that he does not even have women's rights as an issue, although he has 16 issues including the patriarchal family. Hillary leads with the nonsense of the "wage gap" which Bill also mentioned in a SOTU, but Obama makes no mention of it.

Sadly there are women who accept and support the patriarchy, just as there are men who oppose it. Even you make it sound like this education, intelligent and accomplished woman is somehow "not qualified".

My criteria is not how qualified a candidate is, but rather how well they are likely to represent me. Which one agrees with me more on outlook and on solutions. The most obvious example is, the one who opposed the war from the start.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. As long as Hillary Clinton can't distinguish between her work and Bill's
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 01:13 AM by sfexpat2000
she can't represent me.

/ack
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. I didn't think speeches count
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #47
56. Hasn't she clearly made that distinction?
All of the good things that happened in Clinton's terms are her work, and all of the bad things that happened is his work.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. All she has is a speech she made in 1995?
Ouch.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #45
59. Obama does address women's issues on his site
It's just that he considers women "People", not "Issues" - you just have to know where to find that section in his site:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/womenissues
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #59
140. Thanks for the link
but it seems impossible to find it from the menus. I see the "people" option and then goto "women" but find no option that leads to that page.
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #140
178. Really? I didn't have a problem finding it. n/t
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #178
191. yes really. What steps did you take to find it?
From the home page that is.
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Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #191
195. Click people at the top of the page, then women, then go to the right where it says.................
Learn where Barack stands. It's on the right hand side of the page under the heading "Take Action".
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #195
205. that WAS ridiculously easy
:blush: It would have helped if the whole website had fit on my screen. Which may be a browser issue or something.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #45
87. Qualified? sure
she, like Obama and McCain, is over 35, and a citizen although the born on american soil part mccain is skating by on.

Experienced? No she isnt (and neither is Obama).

Being a first lady is not experience leading the nation.

If she got a 3am phone call, she rolled over and handed the phone to bill.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #87
188. No...she said "He's MARRIED, goddamit!" and threw the phone across the room.
n/t.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #45
121. I don't believe Nance implied that Hillary isn't... (nt)
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ccharles000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
53. I am a Hillary supporter...
and I don't think you are any less of a woman for supporting Obama.:hug:
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Radio_Lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #53
129. Thanks for your post, Charles. I share your view that this slugfest is beneath the dignity of many
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 09:52 AM by Radio_Lady
of us Democratic voters.

Interesting photo. Jeeze, I'm glad I didn't go into politics. Otherwise, there might be photos of Al and me on the Internet.

They look like my stepkids, who were born in 1958, 1960, and 1963.

:hug:
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
54. How dare you not be sexist, Nance, and vote for someone because of their gender?
Granted, I thought the whole point of feminism was to rise above sexism but it would seem not in this day and age.
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WatchWhatISay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
58. I can't wait to vote for a woman for President, but
It will have to be a woman who first became famous for something other than who she is married to. Or at least accomplished something major later using her own band of supporters.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
60. Oh stop feeling sorry for yourself. And stop broadbrushing all Clinton supporters!!
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #60
68. No, rodeo - she's feeling sorry for YOU.
:D
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Yurovsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #68
156. Self awareness not a Clintonite, strong suit, evidently...
I love it people tell me HRC is a feminist.

Yep, riding on a MAN'S coattails makes you a feminist. And being a single mom who supports Senator Obama makes you a misogynist. HRC has turned feminism on its head.
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Citizen_Penn Donating Member (359 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #156
183. Feminism may have served it's purpose....
If those of us who came of age right after the Senator, et al can see that it's the person not the sex.

Maybe it worked.

A good male friend of mine pointed out to me that people of the Senator's generation, who are about 10 years older than he and I, seem to cling to what was - whether they realize it or not.

I don't even consider race or gender - so when first accused of sexism because I don't support the Senator from NY I was surprised.

It seems sexist to me to vote for her because we share the same # of chromosomes!!

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Yurovsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #183
215. I'd have voted for Barbara Boxer ...
and not because she's a woman or she's attractive. No, it's because she's right (IMHO) on just about every issue.

I think I would have voted for the HRC of say, 1974. But not the 2008 model. She's just too calculating and too conservative for my tastes.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #156
202. How ridiculous, and you offend me by the Malcolm X avatar.
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 05:29 PM by goldcanyonaz
Malcolm reached Mecca prior to his life ending and he saw us all holding hands in the end.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #60
84. Oh, she's just trying to win her little brownie points.......
Like any feminist worth her salt gives a damn..... pat pat there.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #84
160. She is not!
There is not ONE kitten picture in her OP.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #84
199. She earned them. She's the real feminist, not the fools she describes in her OP.
NT!

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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #60
106. "Stop painting with broad brushes"
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 08:56 AM by izzybeans
That's rich coming from you. That's for sure.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #106
146. "Broad" is a sexist term!
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #60
151. You are the farmboxer of Hillary supporters.
Old-time DUers should understand the reference. :rofl:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #151
204. I love Farmboxer!
And you're correct! :rofl:

He used to come out at night and really stick it to the man--in one sentence bursts.

I think he spelled better, though (among other things.)

If you're out there Farmboxer, :hi:
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
61. TOTALLY on point!!!
:applause:
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:33 AM
Response to Original message
63. K & R
:thumbsup:
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
64. nagging contradiction.....
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 05:02 AM by loyalsister
Hillary identifies with the majority more than her own gender.
I think she has been very calculating about trying to convince everyone that if necesary, she will be able to grasp some inner "ruthlessness" as well as men who have come before her.
She seems to have developed a "tough" persona that undercuts some of her best qualities.

I have been very curious as to why she doesn't identify with our heroines who won the right to vote. Second wave feminists. Women who have run for president in the past or even our own Nancy Pelosi. The strength and success of women seems to have been disregarded.

Obama, on the other hand has revealed himself many times to have a way of thinking that is slightly more feminine. He takes a broad integrated view of problems and his empathy quotient is very high.
I notice that he is sensitive to real sexism. Systemic sexism.
If some of the skeptics listened to him, they could get a better understanding of a guy who is invested in making sure that women's rights are taken seriously because he has two young daughters.
He lays the suffrage movement along side the civil rights movement in many of his speeches.
In the final analysis, why would women not vote for Obama?
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
65. All you need to do is not mention it to other women or pretend you are for Hillary.
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 05:27 AM by barack the house
Encourage others who fel this way to do similar then we will make it to the GE in one piece. We gotta survive this election and if some travel covert we'll be ok. No-one should be bullied in their vote.
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Remember your future matters so daughters and women can succeed in it. More war keeps us all down.We
have your back stay strong.
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
67. What might work on here is to select an anomynous name like democrat voter, then you can post in
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 05:33 AM by barack the house
bliss.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:43 AM
Response to Original message
69. As a white male, I'm fucked!
By the standards of some of the Clinton supporters, that means I gotta vote for MCCAIN!:puke::D
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
70. The list of people
here who have been attacking you is a testament to the good work you do.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #70
109. You Have a Way with Words H2O
Suttle, appropriate and wise in my small book.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
71. I'm afraid your problem is much much worse than that, Nance. You see, you're also a gang-rapist.
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 05:57 AM by Ian_rd
http://www.nownys.org/pr_2008/pr_011108.html

With the help of this particular Hillary supporter, I am in the midst of the personal turmoil of realizing that I am a violent rapist of women. All I was doing - at least I thought - was supporting the nominee of my choice and criticizing his opponent for reasons I considered legitimate. But the linked article made it clear: Criticism of Hillary Clinton is like taking a woman into an allry and taking turns raping her with my fellow Obama-supporting friends.

Maybe all of us rapists can be reformed someday. Somehow.
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
185. WTF?
That was one of the most fucked-up columns I have ever read! And from NOW, too. What are they smoking over there?
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
72. great rant K&R.
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
73. Nail head, meet Hammer Nance...again
K&R
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DrZeeLit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. EggZactLee! I've been sayin'.... THANKS! n/t
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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
74. Hi, I'm Bettie.....
And I'm a self loathing woman. I never realized it until a few weeks ago upon perusing GD:P and reading about it.

Guess critical thought is not as valued as it used to be.
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Freedomofspeech Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
75. Will you be my friend?
You are brilliant! I heard a woman say on tv one day, "I'm not voting with my vagina." How true and if one more person says to me, you're a woman you have to vote for her, I'm going to vomit. So with that reasoning, no men should be voting for Hillary Clinton today. By the way, wish us lots of hope here in PA.
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #75
116. That woman you mention may not "vote with her vagina"
...but I'm gonna vote with my penis in the General Election. Gotta love those "touch screen" voting machines!! I'm going to take a double dose of Viagra to make sure!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #76
98. HRC campaigns on her husband's coat tails & tries to outmacho Cheney
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 08:29 AM by Divernan
with her nuclear weapons/obliterate a whole country's civilian population/ bluster.

Your link, Chalco, to your other post demonstrates your ability to multitask delusion. You claim women vote for a man to hang onto protection of the male heirarchy - yet you support HRC, who has chosen to endure international, public and lifelong humiliation from her husband's infidelities. What made one of those infidelities the ugliest adultery ever was that he lied to her to get her to go(via TV) on the international stage to proclaim his innocence. Or, given her comfort with bald-faced lying, perhaps she already knew about his dalliance with Lewinsky, but didn't know about the physical DNA evidence, so she thought the 2 of them could lie their way out of it. Just another in a long chain of bimbo-control actions.

One recent development that I find as revolting and manipulative as anything a parent could do, was having her daughter call up a super delegate who switched to Obama, and whine repeatedly, "But why? Why? Why won't you support my Mom?" HRC, Chelsea, and whatever manipulative shill in the Clinton campaign who came up with this approach, were all banking on the common human decency which would preclude superdelegates from truthfully answering when that would mean saying seriously negative things about a parent to a child (even an all grown up, 29 year old, hedge-fund-manipulator "child"): "Because, dear, your mother is a lying sack of shit who is displacing her rage at your lying, cheating, money-gauging Father, by running the dirtiest primary campaign in Democratic history; because dear, your mother has been bought off by Big Lobbyists and is just as much a corporatist as Cheney; because dear, your mother was raised by a brutal, misogynistic father and has bought in to taking shit from men; because dear, your mother is an incredible hypocrite who wrote "It takes a village to raise a child", but says not a word to her kid brother (whom she has out fundraising for her) for not paying child support/alimony ($150,000 in arrears) to your only maternal cousin, her nephew; because dear, I have concerns that your mother is slipping from narcissism into megalomania; because dear, no true feminist wants to give your father free rein with any more White House interns, et.cetera, et cetera.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #76
159. So ...
... you write a piece of psycho-babble dreck, and then defend it by saying your thinking is "too deep" to be appreciated by those who call it what it is - utter and complete nonsense.

It would seem that it's not the mods who can't handle the truth ...
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mamalone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
77. Wow Nance....
This is *exactly* how I feel.... exactly..

'cept I didn't have the nerve to post it... oh, and I couldn't have written it as well as you did either;) Thanks for taking the time and effort- I appreciate someone articulating this.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
79. It would be mindless to be a woman who supports another woman
only because of gender. If I wanted to be a lemming I'd be a Republican.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
80. another stiff-necked, obstinate, bitter, elitist, mysoginisistic,
hope-mongering, kool-aid drinking cultist for Obama here!
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
81. Excellent piece.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
82. Do you speak about men this way?
:sarcasm:

It always amazes me the loathing certain women feel for the feminist movement. Yeah, all those NASTY feminists trying to dictate my place. Find something worthwhile to get your nose in a snit about.

And sorry, honey, I really don't think they care that much. There there.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #82
200. Fake feminists don't care? Fuck 'em, they're useless to real feminism.
NT!

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nachoproblem Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #82
206. Of course they don't
They're the new Freepers, apparently.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
83. There is a point to voting for the woman just for the sake of electing a woman...
...thereby shattering the glass ceiling and (it is hoped) continuing to undo millennia of bigotry. I think I understand this, and I even approve. Obama will get many votes for analogous reasons.

I think that my choices of candidates thus far have been more nuanced, but I'm not sure that makes them "better." I'm just voting my way, and I won't argue with anyone who's found a good reason to support Clinton. Not too much, anyway. :7
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Medusa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:27 AM
Original message
I am a woman. But why do I have to support another woman?
Wasn't the whole women's movement about having the choice? Does it mean that the only "correct" choice is supporting another woman? How about supporting the best candidate for our party? That's why I can't support her. And the way she's run this campaign, straight out of the playbook of Karl Rove via Lee Atwater from the grave, that's not something to look up to, it's something to look down upon. And that is why I can't support her.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
89. I won't argue that you have to support anyone.
As I hope I made clear, you'll find your own reason(s) to get behind a candidate.
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Razorblade01 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
85. So What kind of attributes would a woman need for you to vote for her?
If Hillary is such a bitch and has too many negatives... what kind of woman would you vote for? Because it sounds like there is no one who would qualify if they were a woman in your book. A strong woman is always considered a bitch....?????????
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #85
92. I'll jump in here.
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 07:59 AM by sparosnare
I won't call Hillary a bitch but I will call her a weak woman.

Hillary Clinton is not strong. If she were strong, she would have told Bill to get lost and stood on her own accomplishments instead of staying married to him and using his experience as her own. Hillary claims she has 35 years experience; most of that is dependent on her husband. She has no executive decision experience of her own. She would not be where she is without his name.

Hillary makes decisions based on political calculation. She is easily influenced by others when she thinks it will benefit her without demonstrating any real conviction or integrity of her own. She operates on an 'ends-justifies-the-means' mentality; dishonesty is part of that.

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Razorblade01 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #92
102. Ok..So If a Woman were divorced and stood on her own merits..
YOU would vote for her?
When will that ever happen?
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #102
130. Now that is a sexist comment.
Of course I would since I am one myself and my accomplishments are my own; not dependent on a man.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #85
99. Nonsense, none of the women governors, senators, congresswomen have the high negatives of HRC
She is, as sociologist Emile Durkeim would say, "sui generis", i.e., one of a kind, belonging to a class of one - and thank heavens for that.
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Razorblade01 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #99
105. Agreed..
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 08:42 AM by Razorblade01
Watch out for Arizona's Janet Napalitano! She is strong. Not married. and running things better than anyone there in the past 50 years! But she may get labeled a Lesbian because she isn't married and looks a little Butch. That is my take not to sound homophobic...me being transgendered and all..
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #85
132. I know you didn't ask me, but...
I'll give an answer anyway...

what sort of woman would I support/vote for?


The kind who best reflects what I want for my country. Obama may not be perfect, but he seems to have more of what I'm looking for in a president. And I'm talking issues here...not gender or experience.

Someone else stated it someplace else, and I agree...I'm not voting for gender or experience...I'm voting for ideology.

I do not share Hillary's vision. She's a strong woman...and by god, I do admire strong women...which makes my decision all the more difficult. I'd love nothing better than to have a woman...a strong woman...in the White House.

But not Hillary.


~pipi, 50-something white woman with children and grandchildren

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #85
201. I'm guessing "not a proven compulsive liar" would be the starting point.
So clinton's out.

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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
86. The problem with Nance Greggs is that she doesn't know her place
Unfortunately, my support is committed to Obama this time around, so Nance will have to wait until 2016 before she can run.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
90. Here's another self loathing, sexist, mid thirties white woman
who voted for Obama. When will I ever learn? :hi:
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
91. Move over on that bench and let me join you.
Single mom here with three daughters; raised them by myself; all of my accomplishments are mine. I proudly cast my vote for Obama here in Texas. :hi:
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
93. I don't know if I'm amazed or amused by calling of some who
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 08:06 AM by rasputin1952
would require HRC be elected by gender alone. Where were the the "Gender Crusaders" when Carol Moseley Braun was running? Braun impressed me as wonderfully intelligent, incredibly articulate and fantastically dignified in the last Primary cycle, but she was left behind in the dust...my oh my, was it because she was black as well?

For the record, I, a humble male, am a feminist, at least in the classic sense of the verbiage. I believe wholeheartedly in the equality of women, (to do otherwise, I would be sentencing my mother, my daughters and my ex wife, as well as all other women, a life of servitude; something I cannot bring myself to do). However, i, like you, cannot fathom voting for HRC simply because of her gender, IMO, that is patently foolish.

I respect HRC for her remarkable intelligence and for what she has done in the past. Would she make a good president...probably, but she could also be an incredibly polarizing figure who, if elected, would divide this nation to the extent that virtually nothing would get done, and in the eyes of many of the ignorant, (there are plenty of those around), it would be an excuse to drag "those uppity women" back to the days when women could neither vote, nor drive. The reality of the situation, Of all of the women in this nation that could run for PotUS, HRC, is not the best candidate to place all of one's hopes on.

Eleanor Roosevelt...there is a woman that comes to mind when I think of someone who had a very dramatic impact on the nation. HRC is no ER. She'd like to be, but she isn't anywhere close. (For the record, on more than one occasion ER did land under fire on a few occasions in the Pacific, but that is neither hear nor there). My Aunt and Uncle were ardent FDR despisers, they were true Lincoln R's, and when FDR would ride down the street they lived on during his sojourns into Maryland, my Uncle would trade banter w/the president, he may have been against everything FDR stood for, he still respected the man...but when Eleanor came to town, it was completely different. the respect they showed ER bordered more on a familial kind of love. My mother tells me that Er was a somewhat frequent visitor to the house she was brought up in, and that although my Aunt Edith was an ardent R, she was far from the polar opposite one might expect. In fact, my aunt would have been a parallel to the great woman, slightly apart, but rowing in the same direction.

Speaking of my Aunt Edith, there was a woman that most women, if they had known her, wold be exceptionally proud to have made the acquaintance. She drew herself up on her intelligence, dignity and self worth, in and age where women were seen as little more than "window dressing", life creators and servants. She came through the turn of the century, and when the 19th amendment passed, was the first women in MD to run for state office, (she lost). She retired a teacher, and spent the rest of her life teaching everyone she knew the things she had learned in life. One of my earliest memories of her was when she took me to Antietam. We walked the battlefield, and as she described what happened in the Cornfield, Bloody Lane and Burnside's Bridge, one would swear she was an eyewitness. She sparked in me a great love of history, as well as an understanding for "doing the right thing, because it is the right thing to do". My mother came out of this environment, and this was to be a part of great fortune, as those two women taught me great lessons in equality, empathy and the sense of "doing the right thing".

But I digress. HRC, there are two main reasons I find that hold me back from full support. The first, as stated above, the polarization of the nation is about the last thing this nation needs rights now. I love my country and the people that inhabit it, I do not want to see this country further divided, the inevitable consequence of HRC being elected. Second, and this is an emotion that is deeply ingrained in not just me, but many, (if not most) across the nation. The thought of almost half a century of national leadership being parceled out between two families is almost too much to bear. There is something almost inherently American that sees that as being a horrid thing. Seeing what bush has done, after his father was a so-so president, has driven the notion "family" rule into the grave. Of the 360+ people in this nation, we could have done better in finding someone to run than the 3 current individuals...(well, in the case of the GOP and McCain, going to local grocery and looking over the vegetable bin for a GOP candidate would have been a more viable option...oh wait, that's what they did!).

HRC has many fine qualities, but president? I'm not sure from what I've seen I can honestly say she'd do the country a great service. As for gender, that should not even be an issue...Carol Moseley Braun could tell most people that. One last thing, I was a Braun supporter.
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #93
108. Edith Bolling Galt;
Would have made a fine 'real' president. Stories of her being a shadow one for the time her husband was incapacitated seem to have the ring of truth.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #108
119. Yes...another amazing woman far ahead of her time...
:D
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #93
155. After reading the above...I really have to apologize for all of the
errors in grammar/spelling/set up. I was typing quickly before heading off to class, didn't have enough coffee, and any other excuse I can come up with for the errors in the way this was presented.

Thanks to all of you who read this while passing over the thread...:blush:
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
94. Excellent Commentary. K & R.
:thumbsup: :hi:
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
96. Nance..
You are right again like so many times. Your writings are among some of the best here at DU. Keep up the good work and thinking independently like always.
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futureliveshere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
97. Very Well Said. I hope you remain comfortable holding the reins of your own life unlike many others.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
100. Hi, All, I took a break from cleaning and cooking to K&R another Nance OP!
It is just so tough at times to untie the my apron strings from the kitchen stove....but I safely made it to the computer where here and only here I am allowed to speak my mind!

:sarcasm: <-------- added to clue the Hillbots!
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KarenS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
101. ohhhhhhh K&R!!!
It's my "problem" too,,,, I just cannot seem to get out from "under the yoke of male supremacy" :rofl: whatever,,,,

Great RANT!!
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
103. K&R
:patriot:
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
104. You just don't get it do you? More straw women on DU than real arguments.
I personally think that you are not dumb. So, the question is: do you get it or are you purposefully pulling a Bush type straw-man argument so you can knock it down?

"our time is now."
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
107. Yes, we all know, Clinton=bad, Obama=good. sigh! n/t
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
110. 'boy v. girl'
I see that too. It reminds me of high school.

Didn't care much for those games then, either.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
111. With All Due Respect - You're a Tool
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 09:50 AM by Crisco
Female supporters of Obama have been strongly encouraged to help peel the female vote away from HC using propaganda tactics. The main tactics at their very base are: you're a foolish girl if you vote for HC and you'll lose the respect of your feminist peers if you support her candidacy. Whatever you do, don't vote with your vagina!

Make no mistake, this is an intentional strategy employed by Barack Obama's campaign. The instructions for passing on this message to other women are right there on his website.

Female writers, feminists, who write these "good girls vote for Obama" essays are being used to attack and sew division within their own ranks.

By contrast, while it's possible to find an essay by a black writer who's not impressed by Obama, to find such an essay where the writer laying out all the reasons for its readership that it would be wrong for African Americans to vote for Obama simply because he's black, or telling them that if they swing their vote away from the author's intent they won't be "a good, smart black, like me," is all the more rare. If, however, if it were part of Clinton's strategy, you could bet your ass we'd see such columns once a week from HC's prominent African-descended supporters.

You are a tool, as is almost every other self-described feminist who's publicly used that feminism to hop on the anti-HC bandwagon.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #111
118. awesome response.
I agree wholeheartedly.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #111
122. But if people use feminism to try to get people to hop on the HRC wagon...
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 09:32 AM by redqueen
you know, the ones Nance is repsponding to...? Do you call those posters "tools" as well?

As for your accusations about what Obama's campaign is telling people to do, cite some evidence.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. I have not heard ONCE anyone suggesting that all females should
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 09:37 AM by Evergreen Emerald
support Clinton.

Conversely, I have heard from Michelle Obama, that all blacks should support Obama.


This thread is based on a straw-woman argument. It is a false set-up and an equally false knock down.

But you would have to be blind deaf and dumb to suggest that sexism plays no role in this election.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. There Was One Particular Author
Who wrote that she was voting for HC not because HC was a woman but because she, the author, was a woman.

It's a subtle distinction lost on many.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #123
128. ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5607528

Nice use of that same old tired, worn-out strawman. Don't see that enough.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #122
126. Show Me The Evidence
Where the author in question was told that she's a bad woman for not supporting Hillary, as opposed to being criticized for using her gender as a tool against Hillary.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. You missed the thread yesterday?
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 09:45 AM by redqueen
The LATEST thread of that type?

Really?

Have you really missed them all?

I'll at least find you the one from yesterday. I'll at least do that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5607528


I'd appreciate your evidence re: what the Obama campaign is telling people with respect to feminists.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #127
131. That Doesn't Meet the Requirements I Laid Out
That post is not criticizing anyone for merely supporting HC's opponent, it's critical of intra-gender-based attacks on HC.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. Are you fucking KIDDING?
Subject of thread:
Why Women Vote for Obama


Conclusion:

Rather than confront their own self-loathing and jealousy at Hillary for achieving what every-woman can, women are instead eating their own and supporting the male candidate in order to preserve the male hierarchy and their place in it. To look at Hillary is to look in the mirror at their own unrealized potential.



Unfuckingbelievable.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. Get Past the Subject Line
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 10:20 AM by Crisco
The meat of the post is about the vitriol being directed towards HC by other women.

"I'm voting for Obama!" is a vastly different rallying cry from "I'm not voting with my vagina!"
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #134
135. Get past the subject line, AND the conclusion?
Point me to the "meat", as you seem to be seeing it.


And PLEASE cite that evidence that backs up your assertsion about what Obama's campaign is instructing people to do with respect to approaching feminists.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. *sigh*
"Today we see women expressing vitriol toward the female presidential candidate."

Once again, the criticism was not against female Obama supporters merely for their support of that candidate. It was for their vicious attacks on HC.

Not unless ... you or anyone would suggest that the only way to support Barack Obama was to tear down Hillary Clinton. You wouldn't suggest that, would you?

Re: the other. If you go to the Obama campaign website and look at the listings under "people," go through the different interest groups and you'll notice that some group members' testimonials are published, while others are not. On the "women" page, the very first testimonial on the page specifically links their vote for Obama with their feminist ideals. The instructions for passing the message on are right there on the right hand side.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. So you see ONE line and call that the "meat" of the post?
You GOTTA be shittin me.

As for your insinuations re: the Obama campaign's nefarious tactics... yeah... I see what's what with that charge.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #111
152. Bullshit. She's not hopping on a bandwagon.
She's specifically responding to baseless criticism here on DU that's been flung at female Obama supporters.

And your sneering use of the term "self-described" is duly noted. Fuck off.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #111
157. That's a sexist post!
You state that women "sew" division! Your nuanced sexist attack registers a solid 5 on my outrage-o-meter!

!!!
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nachoproblem Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #111
208. Yeah! You and the lizzard people who give you your orders!
:sarcasm:

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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #111
214. And you, despite having been here since 2001
are now going Buh-bye.




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Chalco Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #111
219. Amen. nt
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
112. As always, you hit the nail squarely on the head
The argument that if we don't elect Hillary this time, there will never be another woman candidate is in itself stupid and sexist. There are many Democrat women politicians out there uniquely qualified to run as President. Hillary is not what we need at this time. Her politics are more of the same, and divisive. People are looking for change from the status quo and Hillary ain't it. Gender doesn't matter at all. I was for Hillary before I was against her. She has totally turned me off with her ugly Republican style of running her campaign. More and more she is showing her Republican roots and I'm beginning to see that she is not that much different than her Republican counterparts. If she were a man, I'd be saying the exact same thing.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
113. Being a feminist and a free woman means being able to make any decision I want
and that means I voted for Obama!
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
115. The problem.....
with the majority of Obama supporters can be summed up with the dispicable words of Randi Rhodes, which in turn, confirms many suspicions that among those voters, sexism is a lower tier problem, a mere trifle. That can be confirmed by the words and actions of those Obama supporters in praising, supporting, and defending the public statenent that HRC is a "Fucking Whore". The truth, which is very difficult for many O supporters to face, is the inevitable consequences for Randi Rhodes had she broke in support of HRC. The really sad truth for Obama supporters is that if her remarks were directed at Obama, and the most obvious asset for him(Clinton's is gender, you figure out Obama"s) was commented upon in a derogatory, and filthy manner, his supporters would not only be demanding her job, but would rush to the chance to wield the weapon of destruction themselves, figuratively tying the body to a car, and dragging it down main street, and loudly proclaiming their outrage, and demands for justice. Bottom line? "Whore" for many, is a joke to be laughed at, and reveled in. The other obvious slur, had it been mutttered, is akin in seriousness, to mass murder for some. If O supporters cannot fathom this, it's simply because they're Obama supporters who have an unhealthy hatred for anything Clinton, which in turn, blinds them to the perception by others, that being called a whore is somehow trivial, and should be "gotten over", while at the same time, decrying in outrage any negative references to Obama as "racist". I am in awe at the ability Obama supporters have for speaking out of both sides of their mouths, and even the most prolific of writers can be blinded by adoration, and hatred. Thanks.
quickesst
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Harry Monroe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
117. And what is a transgendered or biracial person to do??
If we take the silly feminist argument to the logical conclusion, these groups won't know who the hell to vote for! And if you are transgendered AND biracial, you are totally screwn!!!
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
120. Pot, meet Kettle.
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 09:33 AM by Seabiscuit
We all know there has been a massive campaign to shame blacks, especially black women into supporting Obama simply because he's "black" (even though he's half white). People like Maxine Waters and Sheila Jackson Lee have been tarred and feathered by the Obama campaign and its supporters.

Nothing at all comparable is happening on the Hillary side of the equation where women are concerned.

This post reminds me of Sean Hannity claiming that "liberals" all sound the same - that they all just collectively regurgitate "far-left" talking points they pick up in the "far-left media" and don't make any attempt to think for themselves. It's a typical stupid Repuke lie. It's a dishonest and false projection of the fact that with 95% of the media controlled by the Repukes, it's an incontrovertible fact that Repukes are constantly regurgitating the talking points they pick up in the right-wing media and demonstrate a willful refusal to exercise any critical thinking.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
124. hyperbole much?
this is crap.

more of the faux outrage that has become a staple of the Obama campaign.
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Erin Elizabeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
138. Even if she had three vaginas, six ovaries, and eight breasts
I STILL WOULDN'T SUPPORT HER.

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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #138
166. lol - now I'm gonna have nightmares!
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benny05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
139. I was hoping this post
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
141. Lessee.... nope, no mention of policy.
It seems to me that there are better reasons to vote for a candidate than because (s)he shares your gender.

There are meaningful policy differences between the two candidates, but they have become entirely lost in the debate over "qualities".

What vexes me most about this primary is not its hatred and vitriol, but its superficiality.

In a way, I'm agreeing with you, but I still can't miss the obvious ommission of any rationale as to why you've chosen as you have.

In other words, you have not explained how your decision was driven by any "qualities" more substantive than those feminists who have chosen HRC by virtue of gender.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #141
153. It's quite simple ...
I didn't get into a discussion about why I prefer Obama, because that's not what the OP is about. It's about some women here who advocate my supporting Hillary because she's a fellow female - all other considerations be damned.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
143. Preaching to the choir. n/t
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
144. I Don't Get It Either
I believe women are smart enough to make their choice for whom they are going to support using their intellect. Women have always known how to think and make decisions based on their belief system and the facts. I don't think it's right for anyone to be told they are sexist (or racist) because they don't support a candidate.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
145. K/R
!!
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
148. Does this mean it's OK to call you a fucking whore?
Just checking.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. When she supports and votes for an illegal war and plays dumb about it,
Then you can call her a "dumb, duplicitous fucking whore". Until then, you're way off the mark.

Just letting you know.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #149
158. So now it's totally cool for "progressives" to use sexist slurs
I thought so, I was just double-checking. Thanks.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #158
165. Don't play dumb.
Whore:

"A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain.

To compromise one's principles for personal gain."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whore

No one ever claimed that Senator Clinton gave blowjobs in a public crapper, That's a male Republican venture. She also does not engage in serial sexual escapades.

You may not believe that Clinton has compromised herself, but others do. Very much so, enough to use that strong term. It can also be applied to the Clinton campaign methods at times.

And while ugly all-around, there it is.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #165
168. You have been so very helpful in illustrating my point
By all means, feel free to keep digging. :popcorn:
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #168
171. You want some whine with that popcorn?
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #171
173. Got plenty of that, thanks to Obama's Sore Winner Brigade
Mmm...schadenfreude. :popcorn:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #168
172. "The Blonde Leading The Blind."
Nance got it right. Please explain what you mean, Ms. Redenbacher.

And watch them kernels so's they don't get under your dentures.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #172
174. Now look who's playing dumb!
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #174
177. Answer my question, please.
I gave you a definition and a link to the word in question. Do you mean to tell me that you are now the one in charge of accepting/rejecting definitions in dictionaries?

Please, think about reserving your hobby of mind-fucking for the captive loved ones in your life who will grudgingly put up with it.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #177
184. There wasn't a question - just a statement that it's OK to make sexist slurs
Now that we're on the same page, why be so butthurt about it? :shrug:

(And BTW, those aren't "loved ones," dear. My captives pay me good money to do what I do.)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #184
190. You said I proved your point. I asked you to explain what you mean.
You feel it's a sexist slur. Dictionaries can help counter that claim, as it has been used in regard to Senator Clinton. I find her to be a sell-out who will do anything for her own gain and power, as well as to protect the power of entities that are counter to the commonweal.

Perhaps when (and if) people have called you a whore, it was indeed a sexist attack. That may have offended you greatly, it may have been a repeated form of unwarranted verbal abuse in your life, or abuse you witnessed. I wouldn't know. I don't know the circumstances of your life.

But as it stands, the dictionary has multiple meanings for the word whore, having nothing to do with sexism. This is very much like some of the charges made by some Clinton supporters regarding sexism that does not in fact exist.

I'm very sorry if you've been hurt by abusive language. And many people prefer the use of "whore" be ended. They didn't like the use of the term "media whore" and they certainly don't like its most recent application. But I argue that it is a strong term that is the perfect descriptor for what is found in the behavior of the media and politicians.

Because you may hurt inside personally when you hear or see the word, it does not always follow that the language will be changed for your personal healing. Nor will that personal experience of pain regarding the word always transfer to the experience of a great number of others. Particularly when the language in fact does not exclusively mean what you say it does.

So, why is it a sexist slur in these cases of media figures or politicians who sell-out?


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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #190
203. It is a sexist slur when applied to a woman
You don't see "progressives" going around saying that Condi Rice is a house n****r for the Bush administration because, while it may be true in a figurative sense, it's a racially loaded term. To characterize even non-black people that way would be an invitation to be called a racist and told to STFU -- and rightly so.

Come to think of it, "progressives" don't even call her a whore. They save that epithet for a certain female Democrat. And it's all well and good...until that female Democrat happens to be YOU.

(Or, if you happen to be male, your daughter/sister/wife/mother/dominatrix/what have you.)
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #203
207. definitions.
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 06:08 PM by Kurovski
nig·ger
n. Offensive Slang.

Used as a disparaging term for a Black person: “You can only be destroyed by believing that you really are what the white world calls a nigger” (James Baldwin).

Used as a disparaging term for a member of any dark-skinned people.
Used as a disparaging term for a member of any socially, economically, or politically deprived group of people: “Gun owners are the new niggers . . . of society” (John Aquilino).



Main Entry: whore


Etymology: Middle English hore, from Old English hōre; akin to Old Norse hōra whore, hōrr adulterer, Latin carus dear — more at charity
Date: before 12th century
1: a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : prostitute; also : a promiscuous or immoral woman
2: a male who engages in sexual acts for money
3: a venal or unscrupulous person



--if someone is a whore, they're a whore. If someone who is NOT a whore is called a whore, then it is a slur. See you around the joint. Good-bye, and thank you. :hi:


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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #207
212. You're quite welcome, I appreciate the condescension.
I sincerely hope you pull that dictionary bullshit on little old ladies to try to get them to vote for Obama. :hi:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #212
213. A lot of our bullshit is likely to be over by week's end.
Then they'll be free to vote for McCain, the guy who called his wife a "cunt" in front of reporters.

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nachoproblem Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #203
209. Just so we're clear:
I think Hillary is a prick.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #209
210. Prick:
Vulgar Slang. A person regarded as highly unpleasant, especially a male.

http://www.answers.com/prick&r=67

I think that one works, too.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #210
218. But really, this definition is more specific to the Senator...
"A person considered as having compromised principles for personal gain."
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #209
211. ...
:thumbsup:
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Xenocrates Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
150. Well said and admirable! R&K (nt)
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
154. I throughly enjoyed the condensating "you're not old enough to understand"
It's the same kind of crap my mom says when I tell her I'm pro-choice and she comes back with "once you're a little older" or "once you have kids" you'll understand.

That obviously since I'm under 30 I don't get the real world. Being a homeowner, college educated and working full time while making under $30,000 a year doesn't apparently doesn't mean shit if I don't vote for Hillary to some on this board.
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road2000 Donating Member (995 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
161. Nance, I generally like your work, but...
As a Baby Boomer woman, single mother, and sole breadwinner, who's still battling for equal pay for equal work, I find this essay an inept generalization.

FTR, I am not a Hillary supporter, and not an Obama supporter. I will vote for either Democrat over the Nutcase the Republics are running.

But I have never heard any urging from Hillary supporters that I should support her because she's a woman (or because I'm a woman). Never once, and I'm active in Democratic circles in my area.

You sound like Camille Paglia. That is not a compliment on this piece.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. This isn't about "Democratic circles" ...
... nor the campaigns at large.

These remarks were aimed at people here at DU - and they know who they are.
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road2000 Donating Member (995 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #162
175. Then I apologize.
Since the OP had no direct reference to DU, I made the assumption you were talking about Dems in general.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. No apology necessary ...
... except from me. I should have made that point clear in the OP.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #161
163. Then you should read this forum more often, because that HAS been said here.
Repeatedly, in fact. I'm not even an Obama supporter, but I've almost worn out my keyboard the last week defending female Obama supporters here from precisely those attacks.
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southern_belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
164. I'm with you, Nance!
:toast:
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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
167. K&R
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oneofthepeople Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
169. I saw something sailing by .....
I got it and rejected 'it'. Nice free-thinking post.

We are the new feminists for Obama! Thoughtful as most women SHOULD be and not so easily defined.
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Frisbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
170. How is this any different than...
saying I should support Hillary because she is white, and so am I? I think everyone here would agree that that is ridiculous, at best. Or on the other hand, that I am a male, so I should support Obama. Also ridiculous. Oh, damn! Now I really have myself confused! :crazy: Everyone should be free to support the candidate who brings the most to the table, and will get the country back on the right track, regardless of who that may be (as long as their name is follow by a capital "D").
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
179. DIT... GAH!!!!
:yourock:
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Skarbrowe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
180. I remember when I would rush to read a NanceGregg post..but
this post is so illogical and full of hyberbole that I've come to the conclusion that Obama or Hillary fever is frying a lot of great minds around here.

I'm voting the Democratic candidate.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #180
193. She is DU's version of a tire inflater
Latching onto a minor issue, something she's seen just enough often enough that the theme won't be rejected as outright nonsense, and furiously pumping at it, until the desired exhaust, herself and other Obama supporters as the unjust victims. :rofl:

Here's the tipoff: Several days ago there was a thread titled, "Hillary has cornered the ignorant vote," or something like that. And the very first immediate response, minus any softening text, was, "Well said," compliments of Nance.

I nodded my head in handicapper's delight. Another winner. That's what she wants to say, without all the fluff and html code of an OP like this. But she knows damn well a lengthy thread along those lines would be damaging, so she latches on like a tuggy and exposes the other vessel to harm's way.

These threads are like right wing writers who, beginning about a decade ago, penned books with sensational titles like, "Bias" and "Slander", with full knowledge there was a bulging new market for it, primarily blind folded, and the works would be lapped up, and the author basically fondled in response. The Democratic version is election fraud works, from the likes of Stephen Freeman and Mark Crispin Miller.

Nothing wrong with that. Just don't expect to slide it past a handicapper. It's something I see all the time in Las Vegas, likewise my friends who have been similarly schooled.

In the general I'll go along with them, while acknowledging what they are.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
181. Amen, Sistah. Amen.
Howzabout when the you-must-support-Hillary-or-else-you-must-turn-in-your-membership-in-the-girls'-club types fall asleep that we freeze their underwear and put their hands in warm water so they pee?!

Who's with me?! :woohoo:
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TragedyandHope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
186. Thank you for another wonderful post!
You are always a breath of fresh air!
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
187. Oh come on Nance... you know this has nothing to do with sexism
You are just brainwashed. Haven't you been paying attention? You have drank the kool-aid. You are an Obamaton. You are a cultist. You hate America. You are an Obamabot, a tool of the left wing. A sucker. How dare you even think that you have chosen your candidate of your own free will. Only Hillary's supporters chose their candidate, the rest of us are too stupid to realize we are being played.

The left wing media is leading the charge. I mean, how dare people like Olberman, Maddow, Shultz, Miller, Rhodes and Malloy, support the more liberal candidate. It's a goddamn conspiracy! All these left wing people being brainwashed into supporting the more liberal of the candidates, there has to be a reason and there is no way that reason could be that they actually prefer Obama. They all just must be closet misogynists... just like you.

You see Obama on The Daily Show last night? John Stewart summed the whole thing up with a single question.


"Senator Obama, tell me the truth, If you get elected, you are going to enslave the white race aren't you. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
189. You should hear some of the crap Clinton's supporters are called here every day.
Racist, stupid, xenophobic, brainwashed, "kool-aid drinkers", warmongering, baby-murdering, fucking idiots, KKK members, traitors, neocons, Republicans.

There's a thread here where a Clinton supporter posted a happy "Yay, I voted for Clinton today!" thread, and got a ton of "Halliburton thanks you/Nice job destroying the fucking party/Hope you took a hot shower/Republikkkan America thanks you responses that were absolutely sickening.

It's amazing the amount of pure fucking asshole that's displayed on this board every day. I do feel bad that you've been hassled over this issue, because it's ridiculously sexist to assume that women are going to fall in lockstep. Seriously though, Nance--walk in the shoes of a Clinton supporter for a day. This place has all but declared outright war against us. It's fucking disgusting. People accuse us of being traitors to the Democratic Party that we've worked our asses off in support of for decades, just because we haven't fallen in lockstep with this charismatic movement behind Obama. That is utter bullshit, and only a select few folks on the Obama side ever step up and call the assholes on that kind of crap. There are people here that I usually consider friends that I now feel uncomfortable talking to, because so much of what they say is insulting, offensive, and downright cruel.

I don't know what to think anymore. I feel like the party of open-mindedness has just become a liberal version of the hate-fest that the Repukes have. It's hurtful as hell.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
192. oh well, ya can`t please everyone
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
194. Voting on the basis of sex?
If that isn't truly sexist, then I don't know what is.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
196. black female here
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 05:17 PM by noiretblu
i will vote for the democratic nominee, either obama or clinton. i am not filled with hope or especially joyous about either of them, and that doesn't win me friends in either camp. i could care less what other people think though, because my #1 priority is to elect a democrat in november. after all of this primary nonsense is over, i hope that will be the #1 priority for anyone who doesn't want a republican in office again.
i had a conversation with a long-time DUer who said she would not vote if clinton wins the nomination. that rhetoric bothers me more than the rest of the rhetoric.
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bluesbassman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #196
216. Well said.
I share the same opinion and goal. I just hope that the enmity that has been displayed here at DU is an isolated phenomenon. If it is not, and the party in general is this polarized, we will have a serious handicap to overcome.




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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
197. I'm glad that NanceGreggs knows her place ...right here on DU. Thanks much...
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 05:17 PM by L0oniX
for your great contributions. :hi:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
198. YOU ARE THE TRUE FEMINIST.
They are the frauds.

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