Hillary is now ahead in the popular vote...

[Maribelle]

ABC news is reporting this morning:

Hillary.......15,013,813
Obama......14,900,543

http://abcnews.go.com/politics

The Green Papers also:

Hillary.........15,102,719
Obama........15,015,087

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/D.phtml#

[guyanakoolaid]

1. So... ABC News is now also in the business of mythological statistics.

There is no such thing as "popular vote" in a mixed primary/caucus situation.

[Maribelle]

4. Howard Dean and Donna Brazile might have stolen delegates, but they can't steal the popular vote

[guyanakoolaid]

8. ...no more than they could steal a leprechaun's gold

And I'm more than curious how Dean "stole" delegates

[stillcool]

52. how bizarre...

Did you protest the rules when they were voted on and agreed to in March of 2006? Did you protest when Howard Wolfson voted to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates in August of 2007? Did you care that Florida and Michigan didn't count, before Hillary became desperate?

[Maribelle]

56. It was in August of 2007 when Donna Brazile cut the throats of Florida with her 100% fiasco

prior to that the rules for both the Democrats and the Republcans said 50%

[stillcool]

88. Excuse me?

The entire membership of the Democratic National Committee including Harold Wolfson voted on that action. Take it up with Hillary's campaign.

[Debi]

93. You mean Ickes - and the Clinton supporters have been cherry picking the rules

since FL lost their delegates. I'll give you the link if you want it to 'educate' the poor dears. :eyes:

[stillcool]

105. Thanks for the correction...

and I love links!

[Debi]

107. Here's the link

http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/3e5b3bfa1c1718d07f_6rm6bhyc4.pdf

Rule 20 (C) on page 21 will be of interest (Clinton supporters argue that the first part of that rule governs - ignoring parts 5/6 of the same rule).

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

108. Hillary lives in alt universe and is under heavy sniper fire

and in Tuzla land, her campaign isn't in debt and Mark Penn isn't lobbying
on behalf of Colombia.

And Bill didn't have sex with that woman.

[Debi]

119. And she doesn't STILL owe campaign debts to small vendors in IOWA

:eyes: What a gem!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5645810&mesg_id=5646691

[stillcool]

116. Thanks...I'll have to bookmark this page...

the link is not working, but I think it might have something to do with my puter.

[Debi]

120. It's a pdf and takes forever to load

Sorry.

[stillcool]

121. that's okay...

I think I've got to do a little weeding on my computer.

[SoxFan]

83. ABC News

The network that gave us Stephanopoulos, Gibson, and Tapper. Yep, no bias in their news operation.

[tekisui]

2. FL and MI in those numbers?

What about the caucuses.

And, it's about delegates.

[Texas Hill Country]

67. yes they are included. and it is about DELEGATES, not just pledged.

supers can use whatever measuring stick they want to decide.

[tekisui]

122. Of course they can, and they will.

[Debi]

95. I wonder how they counted the caucus 'popular vote' numbers?

Since there is no such thing.

[NJmaverick]

3. Did snipers make this difficult to post?

[polpilot]

44. Obama's for change. Clintons are for 'change the rules'!

[Redbear]

77. I generally hate drive-by slams

but that was really funny. Well done.

[yourguide]

5. wrooooooooooooooooong

sorry, nice try.

[Medusa]

6. Popular vote doesn't count--only delegates do.

How's that working out for you? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Maribelle]

17. Obama cannot win without the Superdelegates. That's nothing for you to be laughing about.

And what Pennesylvania and the Popular Vote both prove to the Superdelegates is that Hillary is totally correct when she says Obama cannot win key constituencies in the big states, and that huge chunks of money will not buy their votes for him.

[yourguide]

25. considering he's only 24 SDs behind

and she has to win 70% of remaining delegates + supers to get to the magic number I think you should consider getting a calculator. maybe a remedial math class?

[ScarletSniper]

26. hillary will lose the majority of black and youth vote..so she can't win either..lol

[karynnj]

34. Saying that Obama "can't" win the superdelegates does not make it so

How many have each won in the last month? the last two months? I have not seen them stampeding to her door. The fact is that the media not withstanding she did not beat him by double digits and she is not ahead in the "popular vote" unless you use a count that gives NO votes to several states because there are no official popular vote totals - just delegates, because that IS what the primary system is based on and you add FL and MI. I personally have no problem with FL, but adding MI with a zero for Obama is ludicrous.

[stillcool]

45. What the popular vote and Pennsylvania..

Prove...is that Obama is winning!! GOBAMA!!!!

[formernaderite]

63. not concerned about him winning big blue states

I do think it was important for him to win swing states....and although Penn has gone dem for the last few cycles....it's always close.

[BootinUp]

94. The question is what counts to the delegates and superdelegates.

You have no say unfortunately. ;)

[zerostar]

7. THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE DOESN'T MATTER!

It's about Delegates, keep this meme alive because it will come back to bite Obama when the SD decide this thing, then they will be screaming otherwise!

[Romulox]

41. LOL. I suggest you take yourself to Kinkos and put that on a sign board!

OBAMA '08! THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE DOESN'T MATTER!

:rofl:

[Nederland]

109. Exactly

We need to figure out what the nearly 240k people in Michigan that voted uncommited wanted.

No matter what Hillary says, you can't figure out the popular vote without including them.

[smiley_glad_hands]

9. Spin Spin Spin. eom

[nxylas]

10. That's not what RCP says

Clinton - 13,896,368 (47.5%)
Obama - 14,397,506 (49.2%)

Obama +501,138 (+1.7%)

[IsItJustMe]

40. Wrong again. Mis-information seems to be very popular now days amoung Hillary supporters.

[Iceburg]

11. Time for Obama to take his waffles & whine back home to Illinois/nt

[rodeodance]

27. his fans seem eaten cold lumpy waffles today. Rather testy

[shadowknows69]

51. NO we're all quite happy thanks

Your Goddess of War didn't get what she needed. She's lost.

[mmonk]

12. No.

Using compromised elections do not count (except for dishonesty).

[rodeodance]

13. REC

[Maribelle]

21. We're going to Denver.

:toast:

[cali]

not a chance

Your arch nemesis, the "evil" dr dean and his equally "evil" cohorts will see to this coming to a conclusion well before August.

[guyanakoolaid]

36. Yes, you are.

They may even let you say a few words on President Obama's behalf.

[JackORoses]

106. even Hillary has said this will be over in June

you can go to Denver, but you will see Barack Obama presiding there.

[GoesTo11]

14. Fraud

If this was the vote total that counted for anything, the whole primary system would be based on defrauding voters.

The whole election was conducted under the assumption that delegates vote for candidates at the convention. States that decided to have caucuses didn't realize that this would be throwing away their influence. Not to mention counting votes from Michigan and Florida where those elections were conducted under the finding that they wouldn't count at all.

[Balbus]

15. Who cares what the majority of the people want?

Everyone knows that most people aren't smart enough to be able decide what's best for them...

[Debi]

99. The majority of the people? or the majority of the people who participated

in the nominee selection process in their states?

completely ignoring the delegate count from states that held caucuses as a selection process (or promoting those delegate counts as 'popular votes') makes the total false. Nobody knows what the 'popular vote' count was in caucus states because only delegate totals were reported.

[gsaguyCLW54]

16. and on top of that.....

...she has won the states that dems need to win. go to electoral-vote.com and look at the polls and the map and see exactly where Clinton stacks up.....and this is with the party allegedly being torn apart. Had FLA & MI not screwed up, Hillary would be in an even better position. If it werent for the fact that Democrats have to act like its the special olympics and everyone wins have screwed themselves with this proportional delegate business.

[shadowknows69]

18. Why is ABC allowed to get away with this shit.

[rodeodance]

22. get some sunshine--it is great for sour grapes

[shadowknows69]

29. It's a blatant lie

[npincus]

19. I hear she got 12 million votes on Mars!

Those ballots don't count either! :rofl:

[Maribelle]

28. I think you misunderstood her Earth Day message about being green.

Please pay better attention.

[ScarletSniper]

31. LMao...that's where she needs to go..Mars..or Middle Earth..doesn't matter as long as she goes away

[sshan2525]

20. This is flat out wrong...

I heard the numbers from three separate sources and she is still behind by over 1/2 million votes. If you count caucus states, it's almost 700,000. Even if you counted Florida, she's still behind by a couple of hundred thousand. In any case, the popular vote is irrelevent. It's all about the delegates.

[billyoc]

23. Good thing she pulled out that squeaker in MI against "none of the above".

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Maribelle]

33. What she is pulling out is a copy of the Obama message to the voters in MI

to vote for "none of the above"

[cali]

24. sorry, that's inaccurate. and if you think SDs are going to hilly

think again. she's done.

[Clintonista2]

54. "She's done" got old after New Hampshire

"she's done" after South Carolina
"she's done" after super tuesday
"she's done" after Ohio
"she's done" after Penn.

Sheesh, you Obama supporters really need a new crystal ball.

[cali]

57. This isn't January. It's April and she can't catch him with that kind of win

I never said she was done until after March 4. Now it's clear that it is. She won a reprieve from having to drop out immediately, but nothing else. You really need to enter the real world, and stop mistaking hillyworld for reality.

[Clintonista2]

58. Are you that short sighted?

The battle for Florida and Michigan (which will put her in the delegate AND popular vote lead) hasn't even begun yet. But whatever, I love it when the opposition underestimates a Clinton :)

[cali]

Dean will not seat the FL and MI delegates without the agreement

of both candidates. In fact, he won't give into hilly at all. That just ain't Howard. And she's going to lose by double digits in NC and OR.

[Kesaco]

100. One way or another Fla. and Mich. will be counted

otherwise Obama's win is illigitimate.

[rodeodance]

30. hey Dean, donna, pelosi, kennedy, kerry, reid et al---How you doing today??

[Evergreen Emerald]

32. Don't let the superdelegates subvert the will of the PEOPLE

Go Clinton!!!

[SeaLyons]

35. She's on her way...

Yeah for Hillary. What a victory!!

Go Hillary!!

[OzarkDem]

117. She's winning!

Its getting harder and harder for them to deny it.

[ShortnFiery]

37. Only when she CHEATS and counts the vote in the two states that BROKE THE RULES.

Oh, but when a Clinton does it, it's not cheating. :eyes:

[Maribelle]

42. The popular vote in Florida and Michigan cannot be controlled by Donna Brazile

And I do believe the good folks up in The State of Florida's office buildings in Tallahassee are paying extremely close attention.

Braking the rules of The State of Florida is considered a crime.

[ProSense]

47. At the very least MI doesn't count because Obama wasn't on the ballot. FL can't help Hillary, and

this is a delegate battle, which is something Hillary's spin can't change.

[Maribelle]

50. I do believe Hillary has a copy of Obama's message urging the voters of MI to vote

[purji]

59. so what

I voted uncommitted,in a primary that I knew wasn't going to count.
A lot of people crossed over and voted for Romney because their candidate wasn't on the ballot,and it wasn't going to count if they voted Dem.
A lot of people didn't show up at all.Why because they all knew it wasn't going to count.
I cant see why all of a sudden because Hillary wants it, it should some how count.
She agreed that it shouldn't count before the primary,now she just wants what is just unreasonable to ask for.

[ProSense]

66. Isn't it wild how Hillary has no problem disenfranchising the voters in MI who didn't vote for her?

She lost. Face it.

[ShortnFiery]

69. What part of "breaking the DNC Rules means FL and MI don't count" can't HRC understand?

You can't CHANGE the rules - even if you are "a Clinton." It still doesn't work that way in The United States of America. AMEN! ;) :patriot:

[truebrit71]

38. On which fucking planet, because down here on earth for the states that count she's STILL behind...

...just like she is in the number of states won and number of delegates...

[Maribelle]

48. Tisk tisk

[stillcool]

39. The Phanotm votes of Florida and Michigan?

How many different totals are there?

[Bigleaf]

43. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

What a fucking laugh and a half. Keep spewing that shit!

[my3boyz]

46. Are you really that stupid? nt

[ProSense]

49. Maybe. Is the first link in the OP working?

[AtomicKitten]

53. Chuck Todd: "It is now impossible for Obama to lose his lead."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x122816

[wrando]

60. chuckie

he's been saying that since Iowa

bill from ct

[AtomicKitten]

61. Chuckie can count.

[wrando]

74. how high?

[Kesaco]

101. Chuck Todd? Now there's a good laugh.......

he ranks up there with Dick Morris.

[AtomicKitten]

114. That's right: Pay no never mind to those stubborn facts and keep on wishing & dreaming.

At least it's entertaining! :D

[meow mix]

55. caucus states dont matter!

[TNOE]

62. How many of those votes were from

Limpball dittoheads who do whatever they tell him?

Limpballs is the microphone of the White House. They need Hillary to sweep Bush's crimes under the carpet.

[MaineDem]

64. That, by itself, is totally irrelevant

It has NO bearing on selecting a nominee.

[MattNC]

65. You cannot possibly count Michigan

Florida, there's a relatively better case to be made (though I personally disagree with it). But how can you give her votes in Michigan, while subsequently ignoring his name wasn't even on the ballot.

[Maribelle]

68. Real Clear Politics Popular Vote (w/FL & MI) Clinton + 121,943

Hillary.....15,095,663
Obama..........14,973,720

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[bobbert]

72. How many superdelegates are really going to use MI as a measuring stick?

well, at least all of those that don't live in MI

[Roxy66]

82. Florida and Michigan do not count!!

[kentuck]

70. Dream on...

MI is not going to be counted. Even with Florida, Hillary is still behind. That is why she lost PA. If she had won by 20-25 points, then she would have claimed FL as her hole card and would have had the majority of the popular vote. As it turns out, Obama prevented her from that option. In that respect, PA was a loss for Hillary.

[NYDem Observer]

71. ABC has made clear what their agenda is all along EOM

[GihrenZabi]

73. *sigh*

FL and MI don't count!!!! In ANY way!!!!

Hillary is still losing, and will lose. Deal.

Her chances come solely from the Superdelegates. Win the nomination and kill the Party - that is the BEST CASE Hillary can offer.

It's no wonder she gets her majorities from old people and rural communities...I wonder how the math skills break out for those constituencies...

Old playbook = depend on voter ignorance

New playbook = get the voters involved

[ieoeja]

75. I don't understand why people are arguing about MI and FL.

Obviously had Obama been on the MI ballot he would have gotten more than enough votes to eradicate this lead. Equally obvious we should not ignore popular vote estimates from caucus states.

But you know what? I will concede you EVERYTHING. Count MI and FL as-is. Ignore caucus states. And what do we end up with?

A very slim popular vote lead for Hillary. Today. And after the next primary we will see Obama with a slim popular vote lead (even using your rules). Only his popular vote lead will be larger than Hillary's.

And unless something drastic changes between now and June, by the time all the remaining states have voted, Obama will win the popular vote. Using your rules where caucus states don't count and MI does.

I really don't know why my fellow Obama supporters waste time arguing with your rules, when Obama wins anyway.

[Maribelle]

85. sorry

[Catherina]

76. ABC News calls out Clinton Camp for misrepresenting their report regarding the popular vote

ABC News calls out Clinton Camp for misrepresenting their report regarding the popular vote

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5643309 :rofl: at your delusions!

[Maribelle]

78. That link to ABC on the other thread is broken

How about posting a real one to the story here, so that we all can get a good laugh?

[Maribelle]

81. Well - - were is the link to back up your pomp?

I'm waiting.

[Maribelle]

87. You said you were laughing at my delusions, hero. Where's your link...

to back up your attempted insult. Let's have it.

[thewiseguy]

89. Here is the link

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/clinton-camp-mi.html

What do you have to say now?

[Greyskye]

92. (crickets)

[thewiseguy]

96. Funny thing is that...

Even with Michigan (330k to nothing) and Florida results included Hillary leads Obama by 11k votes. That is soon to evaporate after NC and Indiana. lol

But the actual popular vote for Obama right now is 611k and I am not counting Florida or Michigan. She is by no means going to catch Obama in the popular vote.

[ieoeja]

91. Try them again.

From the ABC blog link...

"I took this blog post down for a brief time this morning while I was on a train and couldn't fully look into all the arguments the Clinton campaign was making. Minus this update, the above post is the same as it was before."


The original links (now working) from Catherina's thread...

Hillary's claim: http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=7265

ABC blog: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/clinton-camp-mi.html

[Catherina]

103. Too funny!

:rofl: I wonder if they were banging pots and pans down at the train station

[Catherina]

102. Sorry. I was too busy laughing to notice your rapid succession demands

Maybe I'd be too testy to click on links or google if ABC was telling my candidate to quit embroidering too but I doubt it.

I'll put it in bold for you.

Clinton Camp Misrepresents ABC News Report

April 23, 2008 12:03 PM

... the Clinton campaign took his report and twisted it into this: "ABC News reported this morning that 'Clinton has pulled ahead of Obama' in the popular vote."

That is a false reflection of what ABC News reported.

...

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/clinton-camp-mi.html

I'm still laughing :hi:

[anonymous171]

79. They're counting MI aren't they?

[Milo_Bloom]

80. Ya think?

Popular Vote Total 14,397,506 49.2% 13,896,368 47.5% Obama +501,138 +1.7%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 14,731,590 49.3% 14,120,230 47.2% Obama +611,360 +2.1%

Popular Vote (w/FL) 14,973,720 48.3% 14,767,354 47.6% Obama +206,366 +0.7%

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA* 15,307,804 48.4% 14,991,216 47.4% Obama +316,588 +1.0%

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)** 14,973,720 47.4% 15,095,663 47.8% Clinton +121,943 +0.4%

[zulchzulu]

84. Nice footnote: *Includes FL+MI

Oh, the two states that BROKE THE RULES?

The ones that don't count?

Nicely played...nicely played...

[SoxFan]

86. Voodoo Math

A state where Obama wasn't on the ballot, and a state where only Hillary campaigned (oh, sorry, that was AFSCME, the NEA, the Machinists, and the AFT; Hillary had no idea).

[thewiseguy]

90. ABC news says Hell No to your fabricated story

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/clinton-camp-mi.html

[Catherina]

104. Crickets!

:rofl:

[Shae]

113. heh,

"Somehow, the Clinton campaign took his report and twisted it into this: "ABC News reported this morning that 'Clinton has pulled ahead of Obama' in the popular vote."

and you know, even if it WERE true, it would be a meaningless statistic.

[LSK]

97. *Includes FL+MI

[rinsd]

98. I don't think you can include MI.

You can make the case for FL as a straw poll.

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Just on the off chance anyone missed it upthread: "Clinton Camp Misrepresents ABC News Report"

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/clinton-camp-mi.html

[demwing]

111. If that Includes Michigan, you should be ashamed to use the total

Utterly ashamed.

But it still does not matter, because those numbers will soon be reversed.

Let Clinton have her day in the sun. It won't last.

[Raffi Ella]

112. !

:bounce:

[Shae]

115. You know,

distorting facts like this makes Clinton supporters look desperate.

[phrigndumass]

118. It's a huge stretch, but if it makes you sleep well at night

By all means, enjoy it. Xanax works just as well.

[mattclearing]

123. Yeah, if you count uncontested elections...you know, where there was no contest. n/t