Help

[patrice]

I am genuinely sorry. This isn't something that will please me in any way shape or form. It is very very hard.

I know I

should

vote against McCheney no matter who we run, but I MUST admit that I will feel personally violated if I have to vote for someone who supported the IWR

BECAUSE

she knew she would be running for pResident. I want very much to be a good Democrat and I want very much to prevent a pResident McCheney, but I thought I was going to be spared this choice.

And now it has come down to a matter of personal conscience. To vote for anyone whose ambitions matter more than the lives of the People, I feel would be a betrayal of all of the Military, in my Family and all over the U.S., whose lives have become political capital in other people's ambitions.

I know I'm going to get flamed for even the remote possibility that I'd be so crazy that I'd let McCheney win, but we've come to a place in our history as a nation in which it does indeed matter more than ever what kind of person each one of us is. And I am a person who values Freedom.

I may not know who you all are, but I and mine are NOT War Slaves.

[hogwyld]

1. If we want to wrest the Democratic party

away from the war lovin', unfair tradin' DLC, we have to shout out "Not This Time" !

[patrice]

4. What I'm beginning to see is that, in order to do what you say,

(oddly enough - just like HC's threats to bomb Iran) you've got to demonstrate that you will in fact NOT vote for the Democrat. My family goes way back with the Democrats. Most of us still ARE that working class that voted for HC in PA.

This is profoundly difficult for me; I would hate this country under a McCheney pResidency. But I can't lie to myself anymore about what HC is. Some people seem to enjoy the idea of getting even with the party machine for not supporting their candidate. I gaurantee you that I don't relish the idea, but I see now that this vote is an expression of who and what I fundamentally am.

[Catherina]

2. I'm sorry too

because I feel the same way. My vote and conscience aren't for sale.

It's why I'll do everything I can to help Obama win. Otherwise, I'm just done with the party.

[gsaguyCLW54]

26. well then you are as guilty as a republican

[peace13]

3. If you truly feel this way you will do everything in your power

to help Obama. Donate if you can, make calls using his web site, write letters to the editor. Wear an Obama button so you can keep his name to the front. I have had many interesting conversations with mine. You never know who you will educate. I feel like you do, I just can't vote for a war monger. Knowing this I am doing all that I can to avoid having to. Let's cross that bridge if we come to it. Peace, Kim

[patrice]

6. You are right about this. I am active with local candidates and

have been very active in past GEs for Kerry and Gore, but it is now CLEAR to me that if I do in fact love my Democratic Party, I've got to get active for Obama NOW , rather than waiting for the GE.

I will contact the local Obama campaign today.

[peace13]

8. Good luck. I think you will enjoy it.

During the Ohio primary we housed an Obama volunteer from IL. We worked our local office and did some canvasing. It was good to feel like we had done all that we could. Peace, Kim

[shadowknows69]

5. I will applaud you for your convictions

And I wish mine were that well defined. I'm struggling with this posiblility too because I also don't want anymore blood on my hands than there already is just by the proxy that I haven't attempted to end this corrupt govenrment. A corruption I see the Clintons completely in symbiotic union with.

[RichardRay]

7. The Perfect is the enemy of the Good...

and I'll settle for good, or even for better, or even for not as bad.

It's up to you, of course, but I'd urge you and your's to spend some time thinking about what you'd do if the choice were to vote for someone who voted for the IWR who would probably not do it again and who probably wouldn't send a new one to Congress, or for someone who is proud of the IWR and probably has a pocket full of xWR's ready to go.

Just think about it, please...

[patrice]

9. I am not, by nature, an absolutist, that's why this isn't easy.

There are major discussions going on in my family, many differences, and some of the younger ones are advocating very hard for Change - no matter what it takes to bring it about. Some of the older ones, whom I respect for their wisdom on interpersonal issues, are opposed to Obama for little or no reason and, knowing them as I do, I surmise that their opposition is primarily Racist. This fact complicates my decision even further.

[hayu_lol]

11. That poor tired IWR vote...

Kerry voted for it. Edwards voted for it. Biden voted for it. And, yes, Hillary voted for it.

All these candidates had their share of supporters. Who has stood alone to be blamed for voting for it? Hillary takes the blame while the mindless men were allowed to run for the presidency and took no flack for doing the same thing.

Shameful that only one candidate was singled out for the blame.

I guess that that is politics--ya know--the politics of the highground and energy.

76 Senators, several of them presidential candidates, have escaped the blame for their shameful acts. Obama gets a pass for despite his rhetoric, he was not in a position to be trapped for a decision that he well could have made had he been a Senator at the time.

Unfair for those claiming the highroad to single out one candidate to take the full responsibility for the war.

[patrice]

12. No one has forgotten the facts. She represents ALL of them because she is running for pResident.

At least the others had the courage to bow out once they saw what the IWR votes mean to the rest of us and how that is going to play out in this particular race.

[CK dexter]

10. That ain't your conscience talking, Faust

It's pride, anger, resentment, and a desire for revenge. I know, cause I can feel it too.

I find it absolutely nauseating that I might have to reward Clinton for her craven political stance on the war and her repulsive, shameful campaign. But whenever I start to think my "conscience" is telling me to vote against her in the GE, I remember that the freaking purpose of a conscience is to do the right thing, and the right thing is making the world better, not worse. If some jerk gets an undeserved reward as a result, but the world's a better place, then that's what my TRUE conscience tells me to do.

I'll go further. If you vote against Hillary in the GE, you will be partially morally responsible for all of the foreseeable, preventable harm that McCain does to this country and our world. Listen more closely and maybe you'll FIND your conscience.

[patrice]

13. I understand the point. But your presumptions about my self-awareness puts

you pretty squarely in the anti-Freedom category of influences.

Please consider some word choices that demonstrate your respect for what other people consider about themselves and the issues when they make decisions.

And, according to the principles manifest in the behavior of the candidate whom you are telling me to vote for, sometimes pain is a necessary thing in order to avoid (what may or may not be) death and destruction.

[CK dexter]

14. Sorry to be harsh, but the seriousness of the situation calls for it

This isn't just about you--we're all riding on this election. So I think a bit of a wake-up call is in order, and harsh words are necessary.

"Freedom" may include your right to make up your own mind, but it doesn't include a right to not be told you're in error. If it does, I've got a great intelligent design theory to sell you.

"Freedom" may include your right to disagree with criticism, but it doesn't include a right to be free from criticism. On the contrary, self-critical thinking is the precondition of freedom. If freedom is doing whatever feels right to your precious gut, I've got a great expiring administration to sell you.

"Freedom" isn't about your feeling of being personally violated, or your feeling of conscience, it's about acting independently by acting with knowledge of reality, truth, facts.

The facts are that McCain will do more harm. You must explain how it's reasonable to suggest that to help McCain do more harm is in some conceivable way a "conscionable" action.

[peace13]

15. Don't fool yourself

Clinton and McClain have the potential to be equally bloody. People excuse Mac because he is old and feeble. I think that Hill will have no excuse for her 'Obliterate' remarks. Blood is blood and we have been wallowing in it for eight years. Some of us have suffered more with this and at this point in time it is overwhelming to think of four more years. If Hill is the nominee there will be a special place here at DU for those of us who are dented by the deaths of soldiers, Iraqis and the dismemberments and mental woundings of so many. I don't want to compare our pain to that of the soldiers or the Iraqis but there is a similar traumatic distress here among those of us who feel powerless to stop the madness.

[patrice]

18. Especially because that madness rolls on on what people are calling practical and

reasonable foundations.

[peace13]

16. Have you been listening to Hill?

She says that she will OBLITERATE Iran. She knows big words and she can stay up until 3AM. I don't know how she could be any worse that Mac. She humped for the Iraq war with right wing talking points. Sorry to break it to you but she is McCain on estrogen.

[CK dexter]

22. Hillary's bad, McCain is much worse

People need to stop and think about this one.

Hillary's idiotic, sickening threats to Iran are clear pandering--the hallmark of her campaign. She thinks this is the image she has to promote to get elected. There is a higher danger of war with Iran if Hillary is president than with Obama, since she's always trying to prove she's tough. But McCain is a True Believer in the Evilness of Iran and the inevitability of US intervention. The odds of war with Iran under McCain are much, much higher with McCain than Hillary.

Added to this:
With Hillary there's a chance for universal healthcare and withdrawal from Iraq.
With Hillary there's a much lower chance of very, very, VERY bad Supreme Court choices.

Wake up, people. Come back to the reality-based community. This MAKES NO SENSE. "A is worse than B, therefore I'll pick C--the worst one of all!"

Stop, take a breath, don't be controlled by anger, and THINK.

[peace13]

24. I have not answered in anger, trust me.

That is why this medium is so fouled. There is no panic here and I do yoga so I always breath. Sell what you will. As for me I need the killing to stop.

[CK dexter]

33. Yes, the killing needs to stop--and McCain's most likely to continue it

So I think that's a good reason to vote democratic regardless of the nominee.

I didn't mean the comment about anger about you specifically! :)

I just think many people's justified anger and frustration at the Hillary campaign is leading them to consider a decision that they would otherwise see the error in.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. I ran into the same dilemma the first time in 1968.

Whether to hold my nose and vote for Humphrey or vote my conscience.

I voted Peace and Freedom Party.

I've never regretted that vote. But, I have regretted several votes for the "lesser of two evils" Democrats that I cast.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

[patrice]

19. My first lesson in Real Politik; I WANTED to vote for McGovern, because

I couldn't vote for RFK. : - (((((((((((((((((((((((((

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. McGovern was the last candidate I voted for that required minimal nose holdiing.

Since then, I've worn the schnozz down to a nub.

This time I'm going to give it a break.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Do you mean McCarthy?

[stillcool]

23. I'm not going to even try...

to imagine what things will look like in November. I know that sometimes people have to go all the way to the bottom before they can change. Maybe countries do too.

[peace13]

25. I hear that! n/t

[Barack_America]

27. I can't. I won't be voting for Hillary either.

Sorry that I can't give you the answer you're looking for, but I happen to think that principle is important.

[Straight Shooter]

28. Sins of omission versus sins of commision

Makes no difference.

"Omission" is here taken to be the failure to do something one can and ought to do. If this happens advertently and freely a sin is committed. Moralists took pains formerly to show that the inaction implied in an omission was quite compatible with a breach of the moral law, for it is not merely because a person here and now does nothing that he offends, but because he neglects to act under circumstances in which he can and ought to act. The degree of guilt incurred by an omission is measured like that attaching to sins of commission, by the dignity of the virtue and the magnitude of the precept to which the omission is opposed as well as the amount of deliberation. In general, according to St. Thomas, the sin of omission consisting as it does in a leaving out of good is less grievous than a sin of commission which involves a positive taking up with evil. There are, of course, cases in which on account of the special subject matter and circumstances it may happen that an omission is more heinous.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11251b.htm

Admittedly, I'm a lapsed Catholic, but I do believe that self-serving inaction when selfless action is required is just as grievous as wrongful action when a wise action is required.

You have the benefit of hindsight, which is supposedly 20/20, yet you would abstain from voting and compound the error.

[crankychatter]

29. Loyalty vs Idealism

I wish ya'all would quit making pronouncements

ON BOTH SIDES of this matter

There is 50% of the eligible electorate that doesn't even vote because they are so cynical

Frankly, they're right... the duopoly is a two headed hydra

So, what will you do that's positive?

[LSK]

30. even thou they are both the same with Nuking Iran....

They are still different when it comes to healthcare and economy and taxes. Somewhat.

[Marie26]

31. Did you vote for Kerry? nt

[Avalux]

32. You won't have to make that decision. Neither will I.

Obama will be the nominee. If for some reason the nomination is taken from him and handed to Hillary, then I'm afraid I'm with you and will not be able to vote for her.

She is dishonest and has no integrity. I wouldn't be able to do it.