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Update: Hillary claims to know nothing about Bill's pardons. Also, "The Rules of Clintonball"

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 09:56 AM
Original message
Update: Hillary claims to know nothing about Bill's pardons. Also, "The Rules of Clintonball"
Edited on Wed Apr-23-08 10:34 AM by ProSense
NYT: The Low Road to Victory

The above isn't the first NYT's article critical of Hillary's tactics, but the piece fails to mention the most despicable smear: Hillary pushing the notion that Obama is linked to terrorists. From the recent debate:

SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think that is a fair general statement, but I also believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers for a period of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid directorship position.

And if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were deeply hurtful to people in New York, and I would hope to every American, because they were published on 9/11 and he said that he was just sorry they hadn't done more. And what they did was set bombs and in some instances people died. So it is -- you know, I think it is, again, an issue that people will be asking about. And I have no doubt -- I know Senator Obama's a good man and I respect him greatly but I think that this is an issue that certainly the Republicans will be raising.

And it goes to this larger set of concerns about, you know, how we are going to run against John McCain. You know, I wish the Republicans would apologize for the disaster of the Bush-Cheney years and not run anybody, just say that it's time for the Democrats to go back into the White House. (Laughter, applause.)

Unfortunately, they don't seem to be willing to do that. So we know that they're going to be out there, full force. And you know, I've been in this arena for a long time. I have a lot of baggage, and everybody has rummaged through it for years. (Laughter.) And so therefore, I have, you know, an opportunity to come to this campaign with a very strong conviction and feeling that I will be able to withstand whatever the Republican sends our way.

link


Hillary is arguing that she is more electability based on everything from Obama's indirect connections to Farrakhan (despite her Ed Rendell's praise of him) to knowing a member of the Weather Underground, overlooking her links to the group:

After Mrs. Clinton criticized Mr. Obama for not severing all Ayers ties, Mr. Obama said, “By Senator Clinton’s own vetting standards, I don’t think she would make it, since President Clinton pardoned or commuted the sentences of two members of the Weather Underground.”

That referred to commutations by Mr. Clinton in January 2001, shortly before leaving office, for Linda Evans and Susan Rosenberg. Ms. Evans had been convicted of weapons and explosives charges connected with eight bombings in the mid-’80s and sentenced to 40 years in prison. Ms. Rosenberg had been charged in connection with a 1981 armed robbery in which two police officers and a security guard were killed, and was serving 58 years after being convicted of weapons charges in a 1984 case.

link


Hillary Clinton Takes Cash From Recipients of Husband's Controversial Pardons

Clinton: What weathermen?

Inside Edition interview I missed yesterday, Hillary takes a question about Bill's commuting the sentences of two former Weather Underground members.

"I didn’t know anything about it," she says.


Video: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0408/Clinton_What_weathermen.html">Hillary Clinton Dodges Bill's Pardons

None of this changes one glaring fact: Hillary cannot win the primary. A fact that appears irrelevant to her campaign and backers. It has been inevitable for some time, but Hillary's camp simply moves the goal post via spin, making up the rules of the game as they go along.

The Rules of Clintonball

by Hunter
Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 06:11:45 AM PDT

Forget the spin: the race is where it is. Clinton won Pennsylvania. The overall delegate margin has barely budged, however, and it is now even more assured that there is no reasonable scenario where Clinton can pull out a primary win absent intervention by the superdelegates.

I was never a Clinton fan, in this campaign. I have previously stated my deep discomfort with the notion that the person most deserving of the Presidency of the United States just miraculously happens to be the person married to the last Democratic President of the United States; it smacks far too much of the usual intra-Washington narcissism, and carries the strong whiff of American monarchy, something already wafting through the air after the ridiculous rise of the Boy King. At the same time, however, there seems little value in debating whether Clinton should or should not leave the race. That is entirely up to Clinton, and any candidate with a mathematical chance -- even if slim -- of pulling out a win has every right to see the race through until that last fateful day. I don't buy the notion that the campaign is hurting the Democratic party: any election that generates this level of excitement among Democratic voters is hardly a bad thing.

What bothers me, however, is the increasingly insulting quality of the campaign and surrogate spin as each successive campaign day wears on. It is fine to celebrate a Pennsylvania win -- by all means, a victory is a victory, and a significant and hard-fought one at that -- but all I ask in politics is that the spinners of each camp try their best to not make it quite so obvious that they think the rest of us really are a spectacular new species of rubes, able to be led by the nose to whatever ridiculous and improbable conclusion would best benefit a particular camp.

Listening to Clinton campaign surrogates on television, before the PA votes ever started to trickle in, was truly painful. Suddenly one state was the only state that mattered. All those other states were merely prelude: if Clinton could eke out a victory in this state, trailing in the delegate count would no longer be significant, and it would be a brand new race, and Obama would be on the ropes, and Clinton would suddenly win a billion dollars, a pony, and the moon; attention must be paid. It is not enough for Obama to simply be winning the nomination according to the rules laid out in advance: no, he must win the "right" way, according to the Clinton campaign and surrogates, or it doesn't count. He has to win the "right" states. And he has to win primaries, not caucuses. And he has to "close the deal", shutting Clinton out of remaining wins entirely, or it proves something ominous (the fact that Clinton has not been able to "close the deal" against him, and is instead trailing him badly and irreparably, barring superdelegate do-over, somehow does not count against her own merits.) And he not only has to win the "popular vote", but he has to win that, too, the right way, which is to say by counting only certain states and not counting others. And he has to win small towns, not just big population centers, because winning big population centers is elitist. Except that if he wins small towns in the West and Midwest, that doesn't count, because it's more important to win the big population centers. And all of this somehow proves that Clinton is a better candidate against McCain than Obama is, even though the polls to date have consistently shown Obama is a better candidate against McCain than Clinton is.

Now, I'm all for surrogates talking up their candidate, assuming they don't insult my intelligence in the process. But with the ever-changing rules and subrules of Clintonball, my intelligence feels fairly insulted, at this point. There seems to be an ever-expanding list of rationales why the delegate counts in front of our faces don't actually matter, or don't actually exist, or are terribly misleading. There seems to be an ever-expanding list of supposedly devastating Obama faults, such as the supposed elitism of the black guy from Chicago (seriously?), and there is a cynical and mocking dismissal of political eloquence from a campaign that once counted the political eloquence of their former president as one of their greatest assets. People have muttered over the negative tone of the campaign of late: hell, go negative. It's about time the Democrats figured out how to competently go negative, even though so far they have only bothered to practice it against each other. More irritating is that the negative attacks presented are, well, stupid, and seem increasingly to be predicated on the notion that voters, the press, the pundits, and we political hangers-on are all idiots seeking to cling to the most shallow of accusations. The press and the pundits? OK, I'll give you that one. The rest of us, however, weren't born yesterday.

All the spin boils down to a simple truth: Clinton now has almost no chance of winning on the delegate count. Barring Obama getting eaten by a bear, it's not going to happen, so the Clinton campaign wants the superdelegates to overturn the primary and caucus results at the convention and appoint her the rightful winner, even though she is, at this point, clearly losing. That's going to be a tough sell, if all Clinton has to offer is one state's worth of "momentum" or the rather odd logic that, since Obama has supposedly not sufficiently proven his campaign viability by kicking her completely to the curb by now, the superdelegates should instead hitch their wagons to a candidate who has been proven to be less viable than him.

The problem is those arguments simply aren't credible. You can't spin away an insurmountable delegate disadvantage with declarations of mulligans or claims of an "electability" that hasn't been able to actually get you elected. And with the ongoing declarations of which states should and shouldn't count (Pennsylvania yes, North Carolina no, one half of Texas yes, one half of Texas no, etc.), Clinton surrogates are rapidly running out of states and people to dismiss or insult. It has been a very, very nasty habit of her campaign -- seemingly Mark Penn inspired, but expansively used by any number of surrogates.

If Clinton wants the superdelegates to overturn all the voting up until now, fine: she's got every right, according to the rules of the contest, to campaign for that. All I'm asking is for her surrogates to come up with rationales that aren't absurdly premised and/or dismissive of the electorate. Given that I can't think of any such non-absurd arguments, that may pose a problem.


Then there is this question if she pursues the superdelegates: Can she win?

If the remaining superdelegates (311) moved to Hillary's column, she would be 130 delegates short of the nomination:

Hillary's current total delegates plus remaining supers: 1584 + 311 = 1895

What are the chances that 130 Obama superdelegates would move to Hillary's column?

By contrast, if the remaining superdelegates (311) move to Obama's column, he would have the 2025 delegates needed for the nomination, requiring no movement from supers currently backing Hillary:

Obama's current total delegates plus remaining supers: 1714 + 311 = 2025

Calculator




edited typos, 2025 needed to win.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. No comment?
Reality is hard to deal with?
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'll reply....
...Clintonball makes Calvinball look like child's play. The only similarity is that the rules change each time you play.....
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. Obama Campaign: "We Are Less Than 300 Delgates From Securing Nomination"

Obama Campaign: "We Are Less Than 300 Delgates From Securing Nomination"

By Greg Sargent - April 23, 2008, 10:09AM

Obama campaign manager David Plouffe, on a conference call with reporters just now, shares the campaign's official delegate count in the wake of last night's results.

The campaign estimates that her net will be either 10 or 12 pledged dels.

Granting her 12, Plouffe says, Obama's delegate lead has dropped from 171 to 159.

There are 408 pledged dels remaining to be allocated in upcoming contests -- which means that time is running out, to put it mildly, for Hillary to make up her delegate deficit.

Bottom line: Factoring in super dels and pledged dels, Plouffe maintains, "we are less than 300 delegates from securing the nomination."



It doesn't get any clearer than that!


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Some of those supers are candidates who don't want Hillary at the top of THEIR ticket, either.
They just felt uncomfortable saying so.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. Clinton: What weathermen? OP updated n/t
Edited on Wed Apr-23-08 10:32 AM by ProSense
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Reality is sinking in for Hillary.
Why else, after her hyped win in PA, would she be pushing a popular vote lead by distortion:

Clinton Camp Misrepresents ABC News Report

April 23, 2008 12:03 PM

In today's edition of "The Note," ABC News' Rick Klein wrote that "By one (rightly disputed) metric -- the popular vote, including Florida and Michigan -- Clinton has pulled ahead of Obama. But without the rogue states, Obama is still up by 500,000 -- and if you can find another objective measurement by which she’s in the lead, let us know."

Including the popular votes from Florida and Michigan -- which were not sanctioned Democratic National Committee primaries, where the candidates did not compete, where Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois was not even on the ballot in Michigan -- is a sketchy notion, and Rick was conveying that with the proper air of skepticism.

Somehow, the Clinton campaign took his report and twisted it into this: "ABC News reported this morning that 'Clinton has pulled ahead of Obama' in the popular vote."

That is a false reflection of what ABC News reported.

- jpt

UPDATE: The Clinton campaign pushed back on this post, arguing that last night Klein live-blogged at 10:26 pm ET: "A potential watershed moment: With Pennsylvania results, Clinton just overtook Obama in the overall popular vote -- if you include Florida and Michigan. That is a very big if, particularly when it comes to Michigan, but this is a major moment in the argument Clinton is making to the superdelegates. And if there were any question about whether Clinton will hang on to the end, that should answer it. It is now, with 67% of PA precincts reporting, Clinton: 14,547,729; Obama: 14,516,766."

This was not what the Clinton campaign was quoting in its "HillaryHub."

Nor was it "reported this morning."

So nothing I wrote this morning was wrong -- and the Clinton campaign was indeed misrepresenting what Klein wrote this morning.

Moreover, in his post last night Klein was very clearly saying this popular vote argument held ONLY "if you include Florida and Michigan" which he noted was "a very big if, particularly when it comes to Michigan," where Obama was not even on the ballot.

more


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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Rules of Clintonball - great read.
I'm sick of Clinton lies. From both Hill and Bill. No way she didn't know about Bill's pardons. One day she claims they discussed "everything" and another she feigns ignorance. :eyes: LIAR!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. It really is.
Thanks for responding.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. You mean she doesn't know that her brothers were making money
off of those pardons she knows nothing about or just she knows nothing about those pardons, though she was Bill's apprentice and everything she knows she knows because she was his apprentice for 8 years in the white house and that makes her more qualified because of all that experience, right? :freak:


:eyes:

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Selective memory,
that is when it's not made up out of whole cloth.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. more let selective cognition
she remembers it, she just doesn't want to acknowledge she remembers it.

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. She only claims the good parts of the White House years. nt
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Is there evidence that she knew about the pardons?
I think it's plausible that Bill's staff might have made sure she didn't, since she was running for Senate at the time and it was in her interest to be shielded from that info before it was made public. So I am going to take her word on that for now, until we see evidence to the contrary. I am an Obama supporter but I don't go around making accusations without evidence against anyone.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-23-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. that's BS, Hill's brother (hugh rodham) was "selling" some of Bill's pardons
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. They're usually not done in secret, but here are the facts

Hill on Brinks radical: I didn't know!

In an interview yesterday, Hillary -- whose connection to President Clinton's 2001 sentence commutations for two members of the Weather Underground has become an issue since she tried to raise questions about Obama's acquaintance with another ex-Weatherman -- told "Inside Edition" that she "didn't know anything about" the 2001 clemency case.

You can watch the video below. If it's true, it means that she got the worst briefings in the world when she was running for Senate in 2000 and the clemency issue was hot in Rockland County, and it means that Chuck Schumer didn't even bother to mention the issue to his fellow NY senator-elect/ First Lady after promising the widows of two dead cops to fight against one of the clemencies.

Here's the chronology:

On October 19, 2000, as Hillary was hunting for Senate votes throughout New York, Rockland County's biggest paper, the Journal News, ran a front page story reporting that imprisoned radical Susan Rosenberg -- linked to the 1981 Weather Underground Brinks robbery that left two Nyack cops dead -- was seeking clemency from Bill Clinton.

The next day, the widows and fellow state and local police attended a memorial service for the two dead cops at the site of the killings. Also in attendance: Sen. Chuck Schumer, who in that fall was frequently campaigning with Hillary. According to another front page story, on Oct. 21, he made a pledge to the widows to fight the clemency: "I intend to take our opposition as high as I can in government."

On December 16, 2000, after Hillary became New York's Senator-elect, the paper did another Page 1 story about an upcoming 60 Minutes episode on Rosenberg's clemency application. It included a quote from one of her new constituents, Diane O'Grady, wife of one of the dead cops: "This is a woman who has taken lives."

On December 17, 2000, the "60 Minutes" piece on Rosenberg's case and clemency request ran.

So, Clinton -- in her effort to avoid being connected in any way to the case -- now says she knew nothing about it. Nobody briefed her, either while she was running or after she was elected, on an emotional hot-button issue that intersected her husband with her constituents. Her husband, who invited her to sit in on a White House meeting with another group of Rockland County residents seeking pardons for four Hasidic members of their community, never so much as mentioned Rosenberg.

And Schumer, after making a pledge to widows, never thought to even bring it up with his fellow Senator-elect, who owed him for helping her get elected, and recruit an ally who was widely seen as an influential advisor to her husband, the president. This being the same Schumer who figured out how to take the Senate away from the Republicans!!!

We asked Schumer spokesman Josh Vlasto whether his boss ever spoke to Hillary: "Chuck was the leading advocate against the pardons. He made his arguments to the Justice Department....He talked to the people who could effectuate the decision." We asked for a more direct and responsive answer on whether he ever mentioned it to Hillary, and couldn't get one.

more


Beyond Schumer, she was married to the guy weighing the pardons, which included her own brothers.




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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kick
:thumbsup:
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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. Clintonball=Calvinball
If the rules aren't working to your benefit, just change them on the spot.

No sport is less organized than Clintonball!

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's understandable. She didn't know those troops in Kuwait were going to Iraq, either.
When she voted for Bush's war.
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Blu Dahlia Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-24-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. She knew Obama was on a board with one of them, but didn't know her own husband
Edited on Thu Apr-24-08 01:11 PM by Blu Dahlia
had pardoned two of them? That lying asshole must really take us for fools.
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