Do the superdelegates believe that black folks are just permanently in the bag?

[DefenseLawyer]

It is certainly not just black Democrats that would feel disillusioned and betrayed if the bosses appointed Hillary Clinton as our nominee. I know I will personally be one bitter white, probably former Democrat, if that happens However, African Americans would certainly be one easily identifiable segment of our party that I believe would in great numbers feel that way. I think it would cause many African Americans to simply leave the party. The question is whether superdelegates who might be contemplating this political coup also contemplate this very real possibility, or do they just take black voters for granted, assuming they will "get over it" because they have no where else to go? Of course I could be wrong, I am not African American and I don't claim to speak for anyone.

[EFerrari]

1. It's hard to believe that anyone can be unaware of how much Clinton damaged

herself with black voters. :shrug:

[Pawel K]

2. Don't worry. It will never happen

they will never decline the nomination to the first black guy to get that far.

I more worried about Obama not being able to win in the GE because of the way this will be dragged out.

I don't know what clinton is doing, I think she wants McCain to win over Obama and she's willing to sabotage this party for it.

[DesertFlower]

14. i agree. if he loses to

McCain she will be blamed by many, including the party.

[Pawel K]

15. That's fine by her, as long as she can run again in 2012.

[DesertFlower]

17. do you think she would put

herself through this again? if she were smart, she would just stay in the senate and forget about the presidency.

[Pawel K]

21. I just don't see any other rational reason for hey staying in

she is eighter totally stupid or she knows exactly what she is doing. I would bet my money on the latter, she is by no means an idiot.

[greguganus]

38. do you think WE want to go through this again?

We won't forget 2008.

[ellisonz]

60. Let's put it like this:

she's still married to Bill Clinton.

[AtomicKitten]

3. Some 29% of the "new voters" said in exit polling they would never vote for Clinton.

Source CNN for FWIW. The black vote, the youth vote, and a good chunk of Dems that refuse to vote for a de facto Republican will NEVER vote for her after witnessing the depths to which she has stooped in this campaign. McCain will own the Indie vote and Clinton would be shit out of luck.

No worries. Obama has an insurmountable lead.

[EFerrari]

5. Do you remember that poll, taken very early in this process,

where half of the respondents said they would not vote for Clinton? I first heard it on Washington Journal MONTHS ago, and then again this morning when it was referenced. I can't figure out how to search for it.

[AtomicKitten]

11. Zogby refers to it as her "ceiling of support."

Simply put, she'd have trouble eeking out a majority.

[EFerrari]

13. Thanks. And, that was before there were "Obama voters" . . . .

[Tippy]

37. The Young Republicans National Fededration is whereit is comming from.

"Jessica Colon, chairwoman of the Young Republicans' National Federation, suggested that Obama's popularity among youth might not transfer to Clinton if she is the nominee.

Republicans for years now have courted the young vote...they did an excellent job of brainwashing them... I never checked the actual numbers but College Republicans were very involved...

[EFerrari]

61. I believe this poll came out 'way before Obama was even noticed. n/t

[juajen]

4. Do the superdelegates believe that women are just permanently

in the bag? Enough of this racist bs.

[sandnsea]

8. Obama isn't stealing the election

She is. Sorry, women are listening to Hillary's false promises - instead of watching what she's DOING, the fatal flaw of every woman who was ever suckered.

[DefenseLawyer]

10. If the situation were reversed, what you are saying might make sense.

But it's not. So your corollary makes no sense. IF Hillary were leading as Obama is leading and the superdelagates gave the nomination to Obama, women as a group might have a beef. As it is, I'm afraid I have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

[Blomst]

16. Women and Blacks Cannot be Compared

You, honestly, compare the status of women to the status of blacks? Have women been disenfranchised in the same numbers election after election, as have the blacks with voter purges and broken machines and intimidation in the last two elections? Black men and women cannot be compared to white women when it concerns the struggle for equality and so forth in the political system. What the Clintons have done to the blacks in taking them for granted when it suited them, and then to cleverly disparage them as a race or as a voting block when pandering for the white vote, is disgusting. They are not stupid. They are have learned their lessons well during the last decade.

[panAmerican]

26. Exactly; white women are the sisters, daughters, mothers of the perpetrators

I'm an immigrant, not AA, but even I can see that there's no comparing the two.

[jackson_dem]

67. It isn't helpful for the party to get into a pissing match over "most oppressed" group

Both groups have been discriminated against, as have others like Asians, Latinos, Jews, Muslims, GLBT, etc. It does neither the party or progressives any good to get into pissing matches about who has been most oppressed.

[redqueen]

30. Were women in the bag for Dems in the last GE's?

:shrug:

[DefenseLawyer]

42. I'm just a caveman

but what would the last General Election have to do with the role of superdelegates in the nominating process of the Democratic Party? Your point is lost on me.

[redqueen]

43. I think women voted for Bush in larger numbers...

so... trying to make the argument that the same could be said of women makes no sense, as they were never "in the bag" to begin with.

Does that make sense?

[DefenseLawyer]

50. Kinda.

You are obviously correct that there is no reliable "female vote" for the Democratic Party that is similar to the "black vote". But the whole argument fails it seems to me, since the situation facing Obama, in potentially losing the nomination through some insider superdelegate deal, is not also facing the female candidate. It just seems like a moot point. If their roles were reversed, I think I would ask the same question vis-a-vis women voters, but it isn't exactly the same thing.

[redqueen]

56. True...

but even if the roles were reversed... it still wouldn't hold up. I don't think.

[Mags]

34. when BO folk have nothing else , they always stoop to race.

always have, always will.

[jonestonesusa]

40. What exactly do you mean by "stoop to race"?

Or do you just prefer that black voters provide Democrats with winning margins but provide no opinions on candidates for president?

[Mags]

47. you just proved my point. thanks

[jonestonesusa]

49. And your point was....?

[dionysus]

51. why must you repeat that nasty lie?

like candidate, like supporter...

[anonymous171]

6. Or the youth vote?

[Epiphany4z]

9. that is what confuses me

The only way Hillary get the nomination is if she gets some of obamas delegates to overturn....if they overturn the guy who has the most delegates, the popular vote, the most money the most new voters....they would lose the GE...she has no chanse...I will vote for her if she gets it because I'm a hard core political addict who cant take anymore republican bull shit...but I think she would lose a big chunk of the new voters and the black vote if she managed to get obamas delegates to come to her side....this is just nuts

[EFerrari]

19. Imho, that is exactly what the talking heads know and what they're not saying

because their job is to build ratings, not to tell the truth.

[Skwmom]

7. As they sit on the sidelines, letting the Clintons weaken Obama , McCain's courting black voters.

[FrenchieCat]

12. Yep.

And Black folks ain't all that "fired up" on Pro-Choice as are White Women.

Black folks have weathered many a storm. They are always at the bottom of the totum pole, so they are used to suffering at the hands of the government. They aren't going to vote Democratic just because anymore. Hope someone has warned all of those White Women Hillary supporters about this.

[TeeYiYi]

62. I would hope . . .

. . . they would vote Democratic because of the war in Iraq. A vote for McCain would be a vote for America's black youth to be manning the front lines in McCain's 100 year war...

Regardless of who the democratic candidate ends up being, come November, "black folks" need to remember why they are Democrats first, and why they are fans of Obama, second.

TYY

[Debi]

18. Since some of the super delegates are 'black folks' I doubt it

Each one of the undecided super delegates are probably hoping that the primary will sort itself out before the convention or are sitting on the side-lines until all the states have participated.

[mmonk]

20. Yes. I've even heard a couple of republicans say

last week the black vote may switch to republican (certainly doubt it but even they see the possibilty of alienation).

[ej510]

22. I agree my family in Texas, they are all socially conservative.

They believe that abortion is murder unlike my family on the coast we believe in pro-choice.

[EFerrari]

28. I think a lot of people will just stay home, and I can't say that I would

blame them. We can't allow that to happen.

[NavyDavy]

32. then youguys/gals aren't as smart as you sit here thinking you are....

[EFerrari]

33. I'd respond to you but since you already know my thoughts

I'll save myself the effort. :)

[Tom Rinaldo]

23. Don't play a selective race card

Are Latino voters permanently "in the bag?". You are perched on a slippery slope.

[EFerrari]

24. Not at all. The Latino vote would just be a corollary.

Race card, my bald headed granny. Can none of you talk about race like grown ups?

[redqueen]

31. Were they "in the bag" in the last GE's?

:shrug:

[Skwmom]

44. This is called playing the race card? Have you spoken to any black voters?

I have and they are tired of being TAKEN FOR GRANTED (a.k.a., they are in the bag no matter what).

Thanks to the Clintons, the Democrats will NO LONGER have a lock on the black vote.

[Tom Rinaldo]

48. It's complex and you know it

Obama doesn't claim he deserves to be elected because he is Black, he claims it's because he is the best candidate for the job. That typically is what all candidates for an office claim to be. Post racism of course would mean that the race of a person would neither benefit nor stand in the way of that person advancing in life.

President of the United States is a pretty important job. Having the right person hold that job is pretty damn important. For those who believe Obama is that person it is an added benefit that his election advances affirmative action. For those who do not, the Presidency is too important to be decided on affirmative action criteria.

But of course people notice race, we are human. So we all need to make an effort to be fair, whatever that means. Democrats can also lose female voters or older voters or working class white voters or Latino voters if it appears that Clinton gets pushed unfairly out of the race.

McCain is in a position to partially redeem the Republican Party to many Hispanic voters. These are all electoral considerations.

I never take Black voters for granted. I count it as a plus that Obama is Black. But I don't think he deserves to be elected BECAUSE he is Black.

[Skwmom]

59. Exactly WHAT does your post have to do with the topic under discussion?

ASSERTION: Many black voters are going to be angry and feel taken for granted if the super-delegates coronate Clinton. Superdelegates must think they have the black vote in the bag and don't have to worry.

YOUR REPLY: I don't take black voters for granted (are you a super delegate????) but I don't think he deserves to be elected BECAUSE HE IS BLACK (hmmm... did anyone make this assertion - Oh that's right the Clinton's don't think he deserves to have the nomination BECAUSE HE IS BLACK and a black man can't win).

Bottom line: Steal the nomination from Obama and the Democrats will NO LONGER have a MONOPOLY on the black vote (not to mention the disillusioned young voters).

Bottom Line: The Democrats CANNOT win the presidency or many senate or congressional seats without MASSIVE BLACK voter turnout. While the superdelegates sit silent, McCain is courting black voters.

Clinton always lauds her resume. Funny, the only thing the Clintons appear to be really good at is destroying the Democratic Party. NAFTA, financial deregulation.....were all a bust.

On edit: And you call this assertion playing the selective race card? This makes absolutely NO SENSE. But what the heck, a majority of the statements uttered by Camp Clinton are illogical and stupid (which speaks volumes about what they really think about the American Public and Democratic voters in particular.)

[Tom Rinaldo]

63. Discussions are not paint by number exercises

You don't get to dictate what paths they lead down. That's called a monologue.

There are some who proclaim that the nomination system operating the way it was intended to operate must be a coup if it doesn't produce the results you believe that it should. I reject that assertion, and not because I take blacks for granted and I don't believe that Super Delegates are taking Blacks for granted either. To the contrary. I think the undecided SD's will hesitate to back Clinton for the reason that they do not want to be thought to be taking Blacks for granted. Clinton would need a very clear perceived electability advantage at this point to win the nomination.

You are saying that SD's have to give Obama the nomination now because of a racial backlash against the Democratic Party, under the circumstances, if they don't. You believe he has essentially won the nomination now and I disagree, so that fuels our difference, but the OP brought his race, and that of voters, into this not me. But obviously he is not owed the nomination because of his race.

If you want to ponder electoral considerations, polls now show more Democrats, of all races, defecting to McCain with Obama as our nominee than with Clinton. In 2008 the Latino vote will equal the African American vote for the first time, and that is a volatile voting group that has swung Democratic in recent years but McCain is much more likely to sucessfully woo it than he is African Americans, for whatever that is worth. I would not back Clinton out of a fear of losing White or Hispanic votes. I would not back Obama out of a fear of losing African American votes.

[DefenseLawyer]

68. What does "playing the race card" mean?

If I bring up a legitimate question about a potential backlash by African American voters I am "playing the race card"? Frankly I have no idea what you mean, and probably don't want to know.

[crankychatter]

25. it needs to stop more than anything has ever needed to stop

we all know Obama's ability to turn the polls on their heads and win

that with time for him to campaign, the general election is in the bag

that this knock down drag out BS is hurting us horribly

what can we do?

[greguganus]

35. Every day she stays in the race is one less day Obama can confront McLame on the real issues.

Time is wasting away. What was once an American Dream is turning into Nightmare On Elm Street starring Hillary Krueger.

[Stop Cornyn]

27. Only Hillary believes that. Didn't you know that her husband was the first black president?

[NavyDavy]

29. where do you guys come up with this crap.....Rush Limpballs, Scammity

we dems aren't taking for granted anyone ......i think you have us confused with the idiots on the right or the ones that folloe nader

[DefenseLawyer]

41. You are talking about policy, I think. I am talking about politics

I am not talking about the right wing talking point that Democrats don't care about African Americans and their policy concerns and take them for granted when it comes to setting policy. That is bullshit, and not at all what I am talking about. I am just talking about politics here. I think politically, if the superdelegates give the election to Clinton a lot of African American Democrats will abandon the party (at least temporarily). As I said, I could be wrong, but that is my sense. My question is, if my premise is correct, whether the party bosses think African Americans will just sit back and take it if they hand the nomination to the Clintons.

[brindis_desala]

36. The answer is in plain sight. Look at the revolving door

between business and government kindly being greased by the lobbyists. There are many in our party like most of the GOP who like things just the way they are. Governing (well) is hard work and the pay is peanuts. Try sending three kids to college on a what congressperson makes. They need those perks and the public has to pay one way or another. Obama is an idealist. He threatens the whole charade.

[Weevlitz]

39. Which is exactly why...

...Obama MUST be elected. Government for the people, by the people. Remember? Not elect people to play with our lives while we ignore it and go about our busy days!

[mdmc]

45. blacks, workers, liberals... either stand behind the DLC or stand alone

cause a vote for a third party is like a vote for jeb bush...:eyes:

[jackson_dem]

46. What harm will it do to 40 million AA's if one man is not elevated to the presidency?

Will 150 million women suffer too if Obama wins instead of Clinton?

[DefenseLawyer]

53. It's about process not result

If Obama is seen to have one "fair and square" (as he is leading now) I don't think anyone (except a few of you hard core Clinton shills) will say that he was "elevated" to the nomination. I don't think black voters would "suffer" if Clinton had won fair and square. I don't think women voters "suffer" if Obama wins either. But if there is a perception that it wasn't fair and square and that the establishment candidate was "chosen" by the superdelegates over the black candidate that was by every measure the legitimate winner, you are going to see plenty of disillusionment, particularly among African Americans.

[jackson_dem]

64. I agree with all of that but I don't believe in being held to the pledeged delegate scheme either

In PA some votes were given as much as 3x the weight as others. A vote in Idaho is worth 10x more than a vote in Ohio. The delegate scheme is bs. One person, one vote should be the standard. The way to judge that is with the popular vote. If she wins the popular vote but loses among pledged delegates it would be perfectly legitimate for her to win. If she loses the popular vote I would support Obama for the nomination for the reasons you outlined. It would be better for Obama to even lose in 2012 than to lose a generation of AA voters.

[jonestonesusa]

58. This is a complex question, jacksondem, but I would start

with how highly urban policy is prioritized in a future Clinton administration, given that the racial achievement gaps in American society have a significant effect on black people living in poverty in the inner cities. I do not know the extent to which Clinton would make urban community development a centerpiece of her administration, but I find BO's past work in this area to be more substantive than HRC's.

There's also the issue of incarceration - 1 of 8 prisoners worldwide is African American, many of whom are nonviolent drug offenders. The continuation of the drug wars, three strikes and you're out, and differential sentences for crack vs. powder cocaine has helped to increase the overrepresentation of African Americans in prison. Do you think there's a chance that HRC will take any action towards more moderate and forward-looking policies in these areas? There's a much better chance that BO will act on this.

Besides - the issues of perception are also worth thinking about. One reason why HRC ran strong among black voters at first is that many black voters were convinced that no black man can ever win the presidency. Relatedly, a significant segment of the black population is cynical about the American social system and does not participate enthusiastically in civic life. Similar to how many female supporters of HRC feel, African Americans commonly feel alienated from the system. And while the benefits of White House life accrue to both Hillary and Chelsea Clinton, no African American or bi-racial individual in U.S. history can say the same thing.

What might also be instructive about African American experience as a way of seeing the world is that (to speak collectively, though I know there are many differences in opinion) we have no illusions about the human consequences of blind political power. Black public opinion is not as easily manipulated through the propagandistic deployment of patriotic symbols (lapel pins, etc.) and react to politics as usual with more skepticism. I'm prepared to be convinced by HRC supporters why her candidacy is more than politics as usual - but if we are all progressives here, we need to challenge saber rattling, affirmative votes for IWR, as well as the slandering of a veteran and righteous activist (Rev. Wright) rather than letting partisanship move the conversation about race, justice, and the drug war/war on terror backwards.

[jackson_dem]

65. Thanks for the thoughtful reply

The same type of things can be said about women too, though. See my reply above in post 64 about the importance of the popular vote. What will be real dicey is if she wins the popular vote and he wins pledged delegates. Under that we are bound to piss of some AA's or some women either way.

[Buzz Clik]

52. Turnout.

[butterfly77]

54. You are speaking for me...

[SeaLyons]

55. I think

the SD's responsibility is to insure we nominate a candidate that can win the White House. It's all about electability. Nothing else.

[tokenlib]

57. Yes. They assume that blacks, the poor, progressives, liberals, labor, etc....

..have nowhere else to go. They presume at their peril.

But if they let Hillary re-invent the rules and steal the nomination--the party will implode.

[GetTheRightVote]

66. I am already an Indepent due to this mess that has been allowed

to continue with repub lite Hillary and I was told the only reason she has not been kicked out of the race already is that she is the first woman to run for the WH. Now I really could just punk up on this party. Talk about sexism and I am one woman who would have loved to vote for another woman for one who shares my principles and beliefs and this is certainly not HRC.