Bullshit ! Charlie Crist, Hillary Clinton did not "win" the Florida

[rzemanfl]

primary and the record turnout was not because of the primary,it was because of the tax question. Your appearance on CNN shows you are just another Republican shill.

[Lost-in-FL]

1. I have the feeling...

he will be the one in the ballot with McSame.


PS.
I didn't meant to kidnap your post.

[MADem]

11. No way--he's gay and in the closet. NT

[boobooday]

2. Governor Spray-On Tan!

He's so 80s.

[Maribelle]

3. The DNC cannot overrule The State of Florida's election. Hillary won the state's primary.

Regardless of how much you want to spit out foul expletives, she won. It's in the history books.

The DNC can only rule on the Delegates to their convention, nothing more. This should not be such a hard concept for Obama supporters to grasp - - - but it seems to me they are having too difficult a time with this simple concept.

[rzemanfl]

17. I will leave out the "foul expletives" in an ELECTION people

CAMPAIGN.

[dbmk]

45. An election that people was told didn't count

And where the candidates were told not to campaign.

I am pretty sure there is a staff opening in Zimbabwe or Turkmenistan for anyone that can spin using the results as being less than horrendous.

[madrchsod]

58. she won an "election" where she had no one running against her

..take it up with the people who run your party in flordia.

[millionaire]

75. All polls had her up by 17% or so. She would have kicked ass anyway n/t

[AZ Criminal JD]

79. Everone was on the ballot. No one had any advantage.

[rzemanfl]

83. No one thought it would count. n/t

[AZ Criminal JD]

86. There was a record turn-out and people voted for who they wanted.

Are you saying when these people voted they didn't care who they were voting for? Whether or not they thought it counted or not, they made their choice.

[rzemanfl]

90. Not Hillary got more votes than Hillary did, so not Hillary won

and she lost.

[AZ Criminal JD]

103. If that is the rule then Obama lost a lot of contests he won by your standards.

[Doctor_J]

4. More primary endorsements for Hil from Cons.

There is a pattern developing here.

[redqueen]

10. Oh it's been developing for a quite a while...

[earthside]

5. He's Right.

There wasn't a DNC sanctioned primary in Florida.

So, Billary did not win Florida, nor did any other Democrat ... nor did any Democratic candidate place or show.

[Maribelle]

6. Yes there was a DNC sanctioned primary in Florida.

How on earth do you think all of the Democratic names made it on the ballot? Those names did not just pop up on their own.

The State of Florida has very strict prerequisites and procedures that are strictly followed before any candidate's name can appear on the ballot, as do most states.

[madfloridian]

9. The DNC sanctioned FL, Maribelle. Can I just make stuff up also?

They were stripped of all their delegates in August 2007.

I can prove it to you, but it would not seem to matter.

[Maribelle]

12. You obviously know nothing about Florida regulations for the primary.

[madfloridian]

15. Maribelle, the FL primary did not count toward delegates.

Good Lord, did you hear yourself?

[Maribelle]

21. Can't you read???? The DNC sanctioned the primary. Get it yet? It not read this.

2008 Presidential Preference Primary
Each political party, other than a minor political party, shall submit a list to the Secretary of State of its presidential candidates to be placed on the Presidential Preference Primary Ballot, or candidates entitled to have delegates appear on the Presidential Preference Primary ballot, by October 31, 2007.

The Secretary of State will submit the above list to the Presidential Candidate Selection Committee. The Presidential Candidate Selection Committee is composed of the Secretary of State (who shall be a nonvoting chair), the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the President of the Senate, the minority leader of each house of the Legislature, and the chair of each political party required to have a Presidential Preference Primary.



Did you read the part above that says EACH POLITICAL PARTY WILL SUBMIT...

read more here ...

http://election.dos.state.fl.us/publications/pdf/2008FedQualHand.pdf

[madfloridian]

29. That is what I said. Just exactly.

I can't read, I only taught school for decades...never did learn to read.

:wow:

You are really something else.

[Maribelle]

31. Well then, maybe you confused your self with your 'make stuff up' pomp.

You surely did not confuse me, hero.

[madfloridian]

33. You make scary statements sometimes.

.

[Divine Discontent]

62. it just goes to show...

on both sides of the aisle - repub or demo - there are people that will do ANYTHING for their 'candidate', they remind me of the germans denying that they knew anything of hitler's actions. today, we have a 25% of the population that outright loves dumbya to a FAULT no matter the lies and outright anti-worker pro-corp line he tows...

[SwampG8r]

64. im sure like most hillary supporters

you came pre confused

[Debi]

16. Ha, if there is one thing madfloridian knows....

It's Florida and the DNC

[Maribelle]

24. Obviously not.

The DNC had to sanction the primary otherwise democratic names would not have appeared on the ballot.

[madfloridian]

34. You are not using the word sanction correctly.

.

[earthside]

14. Blah. Blah. Blah.

This is exactly the kind of twisting and spinning and distorting that is going to hand the presidency to McCain.

And frankly, if the psychosis Billary is displaying lately is evidence of her true character, then it will be rationale for most voters to pick McCain.

[Maribelle]

26. Another one that mocks without knowing.

[stillcool]

19. lies, lies, and more lies...

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.
They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date. They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------
Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her. “I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5. The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.
"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15.
"We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press
PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.
State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.
The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the
Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.
The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.
Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates
National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."
The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's
historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot. The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates
By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.
The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.
The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...

Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

[Maribelle]

27. Go do your homework and read the rules of The State of Florida.

[stillcool]

50. yeah right....

like the Florida Democratic Party is not a part of the National Party. You folks want it that way fine. Start your own damn party. I notice you can't bother to provide a link to back up your lame assertions. You are a complete waste of my time. You can't argue with ignorance.

[Maribelle]

30. It looks like their might be a gang of Obama followers trying to intimidate me.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Foolish followers need to do their homework first.

[rzemanfl]

38. I have never put anyone on "ignore" but you are getting towards

the edge of the envelope.

[LSK]

36. no campaigning happened

You know, that thing that they are doing in every other state besides Michigan, where voters can go hear them give long speeches, get mailers, go shake their hands.

Traditional stuff that happens in a DEMOCRACY!!!

:eyes:

[rzemanfl]

37. Well said, but we OWE Hillary the nomination. She earned it

by staying with Bill I guess. That cheating hubby WHO NEEDED SPIRITUAL GUIDANCE FROM OBAMA'S "crazy pastor" after he got caught fooling around with an intern.

[Birthmark]

7. My, my. The stories you tell yourself!

Do you have any evidence that it was the tax question that produced the record turnout (which just happened to be in line with other states' increase in turnout), or are you just telling yourself a story to make yourself feel better, as I suspect?

[Maribelle]

8. The tax question was to add $25,000 to the homestead exemption. And does not hardly explain ....

why African Americans turned out in record numbers to vote for Obama when less than one quarter were eligible for the exemption.

Obama and his followers have betrayed these African Americans that voted for him in record turnout in Florida.

[Birthmark]

13. It's a pretty stupid play, imo.

It's guaranteed to lose FL to McCain in the GE.

[rzemanfl]

20. Or maybe the African-Americans turned out to vote "No" since

they were getting screwed on the exemption question.

[Birthmark]

40. "Maybe" a lot of things.

However, in the absence of other evidence, Occam's razor says people came out to vote in the primary. And so far, other evidence is very much absent.

[rzemanfl]

53. Do you live in Florida? If there are two things being voted on,

one of which means nothing and the other of which involves money, Occam's razor says they came out to vote on the meaningless issue? I really doubt that and so would Occam.

[Birthmark]

56. So you have no real evidence.

You just assume the answer that you like.

Here's one: Why would anyone have believed that the State Party and the DNC would fail to reach an agreement? I sure thought they'd work it out. So did every single person I know.

Your logic is deficient and your evidence non-existent.

[rzemanfl]

59. So your logic is that everyone voted in the belief that an

agreement would be reached later. It is your logic that is deficient and you are assuming the answer that you like. "Every single person I know" is not evidence of anything. I only know one person in Florida who voted for * in 2004, so therefore Kerry won Florida in a landslide.

[Birthmark]

71. My assumption is that everyone who voted...

...did so because they were entitled to do so. You claim to know why people voted, not me. I merely reported that those that I know never believed that Howard Dean would be so mind-bogglingly stupid as to disenfranchise 1.75 million Floridian Democrats.

Further, if those votes are going to be negated there had better be a DAMNED good reason to do so. I'm afraid that irritating Howard Dean doesn't meet the criteria.

[stillcool]

22. What record numbers?

Florida..in August of 2007 had 4 million registered Democrats. In every state that has had a contest there have been oodles of new democratic registrations. Yet 1.7 million Democrats voted in the primary. Why is that?

[Birthmark]

42. Do you not know what "record numbers" means?

Allow me to explain, then. In this case, it means that more Democrats voted in this primary than in any Democratic primary in FL history. The increase was by about one million. Turnout was over double that of 2004. That percentage increase is higher than the percentage increase in NY (and probably several other states.) In fact, Hillary got more votes in this year's Democratic Primary than were cast in the ENTIRE 2004 Democratic Primary. (NOT mine, btw.)

Making believe that FL's Primary wasn't representative is foolish and unsupported by any verifiable evidence.

[stillcool]

47. Why is it that only 1.7

million voted..out of 4 million democrats? Did you read?

[Birthmark]

49. There really wasn't anything TO read.

You cite a single stat out of context, whereas, I am comparing FL's turnout in 2008 to previous turnout in FL and comparing the increase to the increases in other states.

You have a comprehensiveness problem, friend.

[stillcool]

61. Out of context?

those are numbers stated by a Party Official. Those are not 'stats'. You are not nearly as superior as you think you are. Waste of time.

[Birthmark]

70. Yes, citing a single stat...

...unconnected to anything is the very definition of out of context.

If I may be of any further assistance, please don't hesitate to ask.

[Obamanaut]

100. I think it started out as a tool for paper trail for voting machines

Isn’t it true that HB 537 began as tool to allow for paper trail on voting machines and other changes, and then other stuff was added on, including the date change for the primary to give Fl relevance?.

Can you agree, if you were to read all the things tacked onto this bill, that it would have been better to veto the whole thing and start over with something less cluttered? Or, since there was so much stuff added on that it became unwieldy, that an elected official who REALLY was looking out for the best interests of the constituents would have voted no? They even changed the rule that a state official who wants to seek federal office doesn’t need to resign his state position any more. How self serving is that?

My feet stink and I don’t love Jesus but I think this whole thing is messed up. And I think it’s rather sad that anyone would give the appearance of defending the passage of this bill with all of its various amendments. Gov Crist did just such a thing at the signing of the bill.


http://www.sptimes.com/2007/05/08/Columns/This_bill_does_a_lot_.shtml


<snip>
“…the Legislature tacked so much extra junk onto this sucker that it looks like a frat-house refrigerator door - and the contents are just about as unknown and dangerous…”
<snip>

“Changes the "resign to run" law, so that Florida politicians can keep their state jobs and run for federal office at the same time..”.
<more>

[rzemanfl]

39. No, you are right, people in Florida turned out to vote in a

primary THAT DIDN'T COUNT because they love to stand in line and get those little "I Voted" stickers.

Jesus Christ, you Hillbots are really something.

[Birthmark]

43. Yes, just assume you are right.

I mean, evidence is SO last millenium, right? :rofl:

[rzemanfl]

51. Where are you from? I live in Florida and have some idea of

what goes on here. Do you?

[Birthmark]

54. Me?

I live in Florida and I have some idea of what goes on here. I've lived here for almost thirty years and been very politically active over the years.

You can't out-cred me on FL. You have no solid evidence. Now what?

[rzemanfl]

60. Neither do you. n.t

[Birthmark]

72. Sure I do.

For instance:

- Voting in the FL Democratic Primary increased by a similar percentage to other states with closed primaries.

- Voting in the FL Democratic Primary increased from around 0.75 million in 2004 to 1.75 million in 2008.

Those two facts alone completely undermine the notion that the tax issue was responsible for the turnout...unless FL's tax issue increased the turnout in other states, too. Um, I doubt that that's the case, but I'm open to evidence.

Good luck. :rofl:

[rzemanfl]

81. "Similar percentage" is weasel wording, Post your sources.

I think the reason for the difference between 2004 and 2008 turnout might more reasonably explained by this excerpt from the March 4, 2004 Sarasota paper:

Kerry's wins make Florida a formality.

With John Edwards abandoning his presidential campaign, Florida's primary is left as little more than a footnote in John Kerry's march to the Democratic nomination.

While voters in 30 other states went to the polls and whittled down the list of nine major Democratic candidates, Florida's 3.9 million registered Democrats won't decide anything.

Instead, when the polls open Tuesday in the Sunshine State, the choices will be down to three: Kerry and also-rans Dennis Kucinich and Al Sharpton.

So neither primary meant anything, but there was a tax issue on that ballot in 2008.
But you are so full of yourself and your Hillbot bullshit that there is no reasoning with you.

[Birthmark]

88. My sources are CNN's election web pages

...for 2004 for NY, TX, and the FL Department of State websites. I'm not going through all those pages again. FL's percentage increase in Democratic turnout was larger than NY's (a closed primary state), but smaller than TX's (an open primary state). I checked against a couple of others as well, but I don't remember which ones now. Feel free to check for yourself. I've done my homework.

"I think the reason for the difference between 2004 and 2008 turnout might more reasonably explained by this excerpt from the March 4, 2004 Sarasota paper:

Kerry's wins make Florida a formality.

Ah, now, see? I think that that's a very valid point. Another one is the fact that the primary was moved up, making FL relevant in the eyes of many voters. But what role either played can only be guessed at.

Your "Hillbot" bullshit is rather funny, but instructive. It highlights your willingness to jump to unwarranted conclusions that have nothing to do with reality, but provide an "explanation" that is emotionally satisfying to you. It is trait that will do you no good. I'd lose it if I were you.

[rzemanfl]

91. You mix guessed at and certainty to fit your argument. Have a

good night, I am done with this.

[Birthmark]

93. Guessed? Nah.

You said: "But you are so full of yourself and your Hillbot bullshit that there is no reasoning with you."

That's pretty clear...and completely inaccurate.

But I understand that you are embarrassed. You should be. Hopefully, you've learned something useful.

[rzemanfl]

94. Message deleted. n/t

[Birthmark]

96. Nicely played. Your best post of the night.

Okay, I'll stop. :D

[SwampG8r]

65. well

i actually do like those little stickers
they make me feel good every time i see em
and i am a floridian
so let me weigh in before the ship of DU is sunk beneath the bullshit brigade that represents mrs clinton

we arent disenfranchised
you are using the word wrong
if they dont let us vote in the GE
THAT will be disenfranchisement
a primary is a private party function
if everyone here voted for edwards would we be disenfranchised by his not being a candidate at the end of the PARTY nominating vote? no we would not

aqnd as to the dnc all they asked was for a show of good faith
instead the party leaders here went laughing to vote WITH the gop on the date change
112-1

let me repeat for the hard of thinking 112-1
as a floridian i am glad to see that not one of our dirty cheating lying dlc members will get a seat
and i am working to unseat every dirty lying cheating corrupt one of them

[rzemanfl]

80. Well said. n/t

[SwampG8r]

102. thanks neighbor

:toast:

[StevieM]

18. Oh please. There are different states that benefit each candidate. Florida benefits Clinton

because of its large elderly population. Polls have shown a 15 point Hillary win if they vote again--that's why Barack blocked the new elections, he knew he would get killed.

Steve

[rzemanfl]

23. I live in the Sunshine State, you apparently live in a state of

delusion.

[SwampG8r]

66. is that near the state of denial or the state of suspended disbelief?

[rzemanfl]

68. Yep, contiguous to both. n/t

[SwampG8r]

69. i hear the fishings good in the state of delusion

[rzemanfl]

77. I understand most fishermen there troll. n/t

[madfloridian]

25. Florida's delegates will NOT count toward the nominee.

The only scenario will be if Howard Dean just up and throws up his arms in disgust and walks out (which is what the hell I would do).....

And turns it over to someone who doesn't have his courage.

If the quality of the Clinton campaign is going to be like the quality of people who just won't see the truth.....then our country is in real trouble.

[hell-bent]

48. Yes, I remember very clearly how you were

an avid Dean supporter in 2004. Face it, he has fucked up this entire primary. I find it very strange that I viewed Obama ads in central Florida were I live in the winter, He broke the rules! He campaigned here via the television ads. Dean is a major loser like he was in 2004. Why in the hell should 870,986 Florida voters who voted for Clinton be dismissed because Dean and the Florida legislature fucked the whole thing up? You Obamatrons want to win at any means even if it means disenfranchising almost 900,000 voters.

[madfloridian]

87. LOL....

I don't even know what to say to that.

:eyes:

[stillcool]

28. lies, lies and more lies..

Senator Obama had nothing to do with the state of Florida. He had nothing to do with the rules, he had nothing to do with them being stripped of their candidates, and he had nothing to do with the Florida State Democratic Party's inability to come up with a solution that complied with the rules that they had agreed to in March of 2006

[rzemanfl]

35. Thank you for this well reasoned post, which will be ignored by

the Hillbots on this board. Crist's little bit on CNN was in support of Gramps McWar, he was saying Hillary would be the stronger candidate in Florida against McSame and please don't throw B'rer Rabbit into that briar patch.

[ShortnFiery]

32. Hey Charlie, you dumb a** GOP - not your issue. FL democrats broke the DNC rules.

You know, the rules?

Not even The Clintons can BREAK the rules.

No, as a matter of fact, The Clintons do NOT own the Democratic Party. :eyes:

Not. This. Time.

[boston bean]

41. What difference does it make what you believe or the reason or the reason not for it

it was record turn out. both names were on the ballot and it WAS record turnout, for whatever reason. That does not diminish Hillary or Barack's vote totals.

[rzemanfl]

55. In an election people are allowed to campaign. n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

44. She did win the Florida Primary

People actually voted, almost 2 million of them. As of now no delegates are awarded from it, but she won it.

[rzemanfl]

57. What is it about "it doesn't count" don't you understand? How

is voting without campaigning democratic?

[Tom Rinaldo]

63. It counted for what it was. Just like the Washington Primary counts for what it was

There was a winner and there were losers in both. The only way in which it does not count, and it is significant, pertains to the DNC penelty which strips the delegates won away from the participants. However there was no sanction invoked to stop Florida's 1.7 million Democrats from voting that would prevent anyone from adding up who they voted for. The popular vote count is not an official part of the nomination process, but people voted and the totals can be tallied by anyone interested in doing so.

[rzemanfl]

67. How can there be winners and losers when the participants were

told they can't play in the game? It's like having the fans decide the score of rained-out ballgames.

[Tom Rinaldo]

76. Because the fans ARE the players

The point of a primary is to get input from Party Members. Normally that input goes toward apportioning the delegates. That aspect was stripped away from it, but the popular vote remains. The Primary was Florida's Democratic voters chance to make a statement about their preferences. 1.7 million Florida Democrats showed up to make that statement, and their votes were counted.

[rzemanfl]

84. Okay, let's do it your way, there were 857,208 Hillary votes and

868,056 not Hillary votes, so she lost.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/interactives/campaign08/primaries/fl/

[Tom Rinaldo]

89. Nice try, lol

The same can be said for every primary popular vote result while more than two candidates were in the race, no matter who won.

[slick8790]

46. Correction "Another Republican shill that McCain will pick for VP".

Florida is out of play this election, mark my words.

[Capn Sunshine]

52. actually- he's a DLC shill

because this thing was all a carefully articulated plan. Clinton has so many strategeries I'm losing track

[Hippo_Tron]

73. Turnout in Florida was higher for the GOP than for the Democrats...

There's record turnout all over the country, that's not unique to Florida. But in nearly every state more Democrats are voting than Republicans. They exceptions are Florida, Michigan, Arizona, Alaska, Alabama, Alaska, and Utah. Arizona is McDinosaur's home state. Alabama, Alaska, and Utah are very very red. I'd venture to say that in Florida and Michigan it's because the Dem primary was a beauty contest. Far more Democrats would have turned out if they knew their votes would have counted.

[rzemanfl]

78. Oh my! A rational post that makes sense. Prepare to be flamed.

Good on you anyway.

[millionaire]

74. Clinton was up in the polls by approximately 17% when the Florida primary took place

Even in a regular election, she would have won by a very wide margin.

[rzemanfl]

82. Enjoy your stay. n/t

[jackson_dem]

85. It doesn't matter. 1.7 million people showed up and Clinton was the choice of 50% of them

Katherine Obama will try to disenfranchise them but the fact is the people of Florida are on record.

[rzemanfl]

92. Not Hillary got more votes than Hillary did, another case of

rounding that favors Hillary.

[jackson_dem]

98. Like in PA Obama ran ads there and still lost badly

[wileedog]

95. Not all of them

The vote was announced well ahead of time as bogus. Many people did not show up who otherwise would have.

In a winner take all scenario you may have an argument, although not much of one.

Especially in a proportional system, you need to ensure that every conceivable vote was counted to correctly allocate delegates. You certainly cannot say the popular vote is accurate.

This is intellectual dishonesty at best. Elections are not based on "well a lot of people showed up, so it counts."

[jackson_dem]

97. So the solution to an imperfect vote is to disenfranchise a state that has 18 million people?

[wileedog]

99. Yes, it is more accurate to discount an illegal vote than count it and skew results

If you are being honest.

*edit* Again, this is an argument that should have been taking place in 2007, not now. Not after a clusterfuck inaccurate vote has already been taken for no reason to muck up the works.

[jackson_dem]

101. "Don't tell me words don't matter"--Deval Patrick/David Axlerod

Apparently words matter but the voices of the 27 million people in Florida and Michigan don't? :shrug: