BECAUSE FL AND MI ARE NOT INCLUDED POPULAR VOTE SHOULD BE WEIGHED HEAVILY BY SD's

[boston bean]

There is no rule anywhere that I know of that says popular vote should not be considered, and that included FL and MI.

Since we will not have a legitimate winner because Dean and Brazile fucked up beyond belief, doesn't mean we SD's can't measure results in any way they deem appropriate.

Neither Obama or Hillary can get to the magic number needed to lock this down without the help of superdelegates. You cannot favor one candidate over another by not counting two large states. Fine if you don't want to count delegates because of the ever so important rules, there is no rule preventing anyone from counting popular vote.

If neither can get the amount of delegates needed in this flawed illegitimate primary then we will have to use some measure and that will be the popular vote.

[Windy]

1. what about the fact that a caucus win encompasses many voters

where as a primary vote is one vote per voter.

A win of one caucus site may mean anywhere from two up to however many voters show up and vote for a candidate.

Your theory regarding the popular vote FAILS to take that into consideration!!!!
The supers know that even though the everyday yahoo hillary fanatic does not or discounts that fact.

[boston bean]

3. Your argument FAILS, just look at TX, a caucus in no way represents true

vote totals and you know it.

[Windy]

21. Use your brain. To win a caucus, you have to have the MAJORITY

of the people (plural) in your caucus vote a candidate. The candidate with the majority (plural) wins the caucus site. There are NUMEROUS caucus sites in the states that hold caucuses.

Hillary's problem with a caucaus is that people get to discuss the pros of their candidate and people can make a choice after discussion. When people start to pay attention and hear about Obama, many of the caucus voters were swayed to Obama's side.

Hillary wants to keep everyone dumb and only aware of American Idol. Fact.

BTW...the areas that HRC won in PA are the rural red areas which will go to McCain. Obama won in the dem areas of the state for example, Philadelphia.

She is behind in delegates, behind in the popular vote, behind in money and hasn't gained many supers since super tuesday. Obama has gotten more since that time.

She is destroying the party for her OWN gain.

[boston bean]

22. Did Obama win the popular vote in the TX primary? nt

[Windy]

29. He won the caucuses and received more delegates, so who knows based upon the FACT

that it takes a majority (plural) to win a caucus site.

[boston bean]

35. You can't be that dim can you. I don't know if I should take the time to explain.

Let me know if you feel the need to be enlightened and I will waste the energy and type you and explanation.

[Joe the Revelator]

69. Instead of being a patronizing prat....

why not just say that you don't know how to respond to the post?

[boston bean]

36. You can't be that dim can you. I don't know if I should take the time to explain.

Let me know if you feel the need to be enlightened and I will waste the energy and type you and explanation.

[yourguide]

40. Limbaugh rocked the vote, remember?

[AZ Criminal JD]

58. How many excuses do you have on that endless list?

[yourguide]

63. How many excuses do you have

for living in Alabama?

[AZ Criminal JD]

64. People come from New York to Alabama to retire.

No one goes to New York. When that starts to change let me know.

[yourguide]

65. You're right, everyone goes to NY to LIVE!

However, I don't know any new yorker who would go to Alabama to retire. I've been to Alabama *shudders*.

[AZ Criminal JD]

66. Sorry, no one goes to New York. All the census firgures show that.

Everyone is getting out of that cesspool as soon as they can.

[yourguide]

74. HAHAHAHAHAHA...

Maybe the last census you saw in 1972...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight :rofl:

Yeah, there's NO reason it's the largest city in the US. EVERYONE who's here never leaves and no one EVER moves here...

Maybe we should get you some warm milk?

[AZ Criminal JD]

141. The population of New York was 7.9 million in 1950

And it was 8 million in 2000. A whole 1% increase in population in 50 years. Yeah, people really love that city. The only ones staying there are the people who are trapped and the people rich enough to isolate themselves from everyone else.

[rodeodance]

82. ***I HAVE SEV. DEMEANING PICS OF OBAMA--SHALL I POST THEM??

[PoliticalAmazon]

135. Oh, please do. I have some lovely pictures of Clinton and her pantsuit camel-toe. n/t

[rodeodance]

84. ***here is O. in his MT suit:

[MethuenProgressive]

110. The $600 hand made Italian loafers really make that outfit ROCK!

Almost as Elitist as the $200 Nikes he wore at a basketball photo-op.

[yourguide]

111. But not nearly as elitist as the $109 million the clinton's have earned...

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[jackson_dem]

119. Yeah, Obama won rethugs 53-46 in Texas while losing Dems 46-53

[yourguide]

124. link pls? on the rethug number....

[jackson_dem]

125. The exit poll. NO Obamite has read it to see if the Obama machine's lies were true?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/epolls/index.html#TXDEM

[yourguide]

130. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Out of a sample size of 2,048? And how many people voted in the dem primary and caucus' in TX?

Before you start running your yap about numbers, make sure you actually have the numbers to back it up.

[jackson_dem]

132. Exit polls are a proven thing. What evidence is there that rethugs voted for Clinton?

The kool aid gang believes anything without bothering to look for evidence. Exit polls are all we have since there is no break down of actual vote counts by groups.I guess you wouldn't believe Obama is winning the affluent vote if Obama's camp claimed he wasn't because exit polls aren't reliable in Obamaland and because Obama never lies. :rofl:

[yourguide]

138. Yeah, the exit polls showed a 4 point spread in PA

and it was a 9 point spread.

The exit polls shows HRC LOSING in NH and she won.

The exit polls are NOT a proven thing :rofl::rofl:


So YOU are basing this assumption off a TOTAL of 185 republican voters in an exit poll, of which 98 of them said they voted Obama and 87 of them said they voted for Hillary.

I did look for evidence, I just showed you the evidence. If you give me a better sample than 185 republican voters who voted dem out of the ENTIRE state of texas I'd be more likely to believe you.

[PoliticalAmazon]

133. The fact that Hillary wants to cheat should be considered by SDs. n/t

[Windy]

2. BTW...obama would win a re-vote here in MI based upon recent polls

http://www.mlive.com/elections/index.ssf/2008/04/obama_does_better_against_mcca.html

[boston bean]

4. Why did he take his name off the ballot and leave it on in FL? And why doesn't he want a re-vote

I heard him say he's just following the rules.......

Well the rules allow SD's to decide however they see fit and they were in fact created to prevent the exact type of scenario we see occuring now.

[Windy]

10. the only people on the ballot here were HRC, Kucinich and Gravel.

The others AGREED to take their names of the ballot and not campaign here. Hillary once again was dishonest.

[boston bean]

11. Alrighty then, even though that is not true, why did he break the rules and leave his name on the FL

ballot.

[Windy]

28. Everyone was on the ballot in FL. There wasn't time to take them off

when the repub legislature there decided to bump the primary.

They all agreed not to campaign, however, HRC went to Miami for a "fundraiser" immediately after the SC vote. She BROKE the agreement. Then she BRAZENLY went to florida on the night of the primary to declare a victory.

She is a dirty politician. I used to think before things got this bad that she would be a good president, that I could support her, but now, there is absolutely no way that I can reward her brand of politics and slime with my vote. She is a disgrace to all other strong women who have run for and won political office in the country and around the world. She has set us back decades in this country!!!

[boston bean]

37. THERE WAS NO RULE TO REMOVE NAMES FROM BALLOTS. nt

[DrDan]

44. BS - Obama had TV ads running in FL - get your facts straight

[Windy]

72. He had ads running in GEORGIA on CABLE that were seen in north florida!!!

Jesus christ, you HRC supporters are no different that bush groupies!

[Cass]

85. They were seen in south Florida as well.

I live there and saw them myself.

[DrDan]

107. I am not a Hillary supporter . . . I just happen to like a bit of truth in these posts

something found lacking at DU since this whole Obama-Hillary spat started. The vitriol and petty lies are getting old.

[DrDan]

108. plus - the ads ran in Florida - before you start your crass language attack - get the facts straight

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/01/obama_airs_nati.html

[demwing]

33. Obama had no choice in Florida

Just Michigan.

[cali]

42. you can't take your name off the ballot in FL

weird rules, but there it. You can't do it unless you're withdrawing entirely from the race.

[DemVet]

136. Yeah, Obama....

...would have hosed that one up also if they let him.

[AZ Criminal JD]

67. Chris Dodd was also on the ballot.

[KaryninMiami]

52. He was not against a revote in Florida- this is Clinton campaign spin.

Obama said the decision about what would happen in FL and MI needed to be made by the DNC and that he would go along with their decision. There was no money to fund a re-vote in Florida and we are not in a position to suddenly run a caucaus. Voting by mail was a good idea but there wasn't time to get this set up so that we would be confident of the results being accurate.

We were screwed by the Florida Democratic party- not by Dean, not by the DNC- by our own party who ignored the rules, refused support from the DNC (when there would have been time to organize a vote of some type on the appropriate day) and knew- as did we all- that our votes would not count. No one campaigned here- (Except Hillary by the way)-- and we all voted knowing our votes would not count. Many didn't bother voting at all because of this.

Obama would have gone along with whatever was decided by the DNC- as would we, the voters of Florida. But you can't count the votes now- the rules were broken.

[mckeown1128]

78. Why would they decide based on MI...

do you honestly think they will take into account a state where one of the candidates got ZERO votes. That is plain stupid. And since the SDs aren't stupid and that they all will be certain that more than zero people in MI wanted Obama for president... they aren't going to take into account the popular vote in MI. The only reason the Clinton campaign takes MI into account is to try to claim that they are winning the popular vote.. that way their UNinformed base will think Obama is stealing the election... that way they wont vote for him in the GE.. (because Hillary HAS LOST the nomination...only delusional Clinton supporters like your self think otherwise) And she only wants Obama to lose in the GE so she can run as the "I tried to warn you" candididate in 2012. (She would be McCain old in 2016 or 2020.. when the next open primary is)

[msongs]

5. Mass. superdelegates defy the will of Mass. primary voters. does that count? nt

[boston bean]

7. yep they did, even before we voted. nt

[tekisui]

6. SD's will do what they want.

They will do what will be politically advantageous for them.

[gcomeau]

8. You mean that other metric Obama is *also* winning? That popular vote?

And how were you planning on factoring in the caucus states? Educated guesses?

Obama will hit 2024 before the primaries finish. You're wasting your time with this.

[boston bean]

9. No he is not winning the popular vote. nt

[ProSense]

15. Oh,

yes he is.

[boston bean]

20. I didn't see PA included in that, did I miss it? nt

[ProSense]

26. Obviously you did. n/t

[boston bean]

32. Real Clear politics seems to disagree:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[ProSense]

38. Ah, those are RCP's numbers at the link. Did you miss this at RCP:

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)**

See those two asterisk? Uncommitteds not included.

[gcomeau]

39. No they don't. They agree entirely.

Oh, let me guess... you want to include Florida AND Michigan... and give Obama ZERO votes in Michigan because he wasn't on the ballot and ignore the uncommitteds... AND not count any votes from Iowa, or Nevada, or Washington... THEN, in that fantasy land scenario, RCP disagrees he's leading.

Want to tell us why in the holy hell the supers would even dream of doing that?

[boston bean]

46. No, I don't want to not count uncommitteds, but some of those non committeds are John Edwards. nt

and if you use the WA primary vs the caucus, his lead decreases another 50,000.

[gcomeau]

51. "some"

So... how many are you counting?

And do please elaborate on how his lead decreases by 50,000 if you "use the WA primary vs the caucus".

[boston bean]

53. I really don't know and that's probably why they weren't counted. But he obviously get some

percentage.

And you can read that explanation if you read the ** at the bottom.

[gcomeau]

56. I did read the ** at the bottom.

I also read the table. They gave him ZERO votes from Michigan. Trying to convince the superdelegates that Obama gets zero popular votes in that state when they make their evaluation is ridiculous. But if you give him even a proportional percentage of the uncommitted then he's back ahead again. There's no way to come at this that has Hillary ahead. None.

[gcomeau]

27. Yes, you did miss it. Those are the numbers WITH PA.

You don't actually believe the stuff the Clinton campaign e-mails you, do you?

[quakerboy]

34. Its included in the math there.

Its already happened. So its in the already done pile. Nice try at a diversion though. She is still behind. Unless you start cherry picking states to ignore, which would rather undermine the whole "have to count FL and MI" argument.

[quakerboy]

25. Yes, he is. nt

[quakerboy]

12. Everytime

Dean is attacked by Clinton and her supporters, I feel a little less charitable towards yall.

[boston bean]

16. Everytime I see you attack because of some attack I feel less charitable towards you. nt

[berni_mccoy]

13. You are Desperate. The SD's are already factoring that in. You'd know that if you did any research

The SD's are counting FL results for the most part, ignoring MI. Chuck Todd gave a thorough analysis of this on MSNBC. He said Clinton MUST WIN NC in order to stay in the race. SDs will commit after she loses NC.

[AtomicKitten]

14. Well if you type it ALL IN CAPS it must be so.

Not.

[boston bean]

17. You Know IT. n t

[demo dutch]

18. Nah, the US never counts it's citizen's votes, so why change now! This country has once again fallen

behind the rest of the world when it comes to voting. What a fucking joke! We have the nerve to tell other countries how to run their elections, meanwhile the rest of the world can once again conclude that the US does not count its citizen's votes at election time. Is it any wonder this country has the lowest voter turnout in the western world!

As it is, the Constitution does not specifically affirm the right to vote. There are virtually no election administration standards, and there is mass disenfranchisement at each election. Even the Supreme Court ruled in the Bush v. Gore case in 2000 that citizens do not have the right to vote for electors for president. Furthermore the constitution doesn't mentioned anything about parties. You do really believe that the primary results mean anything as long a "your" candidate wins, and it doesn't matter that 1 million plus voters are disenfranchised because the "parties" decided it so?

We need change desperately, and do away with this nonsense! It will take the destruction of the Dem party after this election unless they come up with a comprise but it will take a constitutional amendment to fix the disastrous election system!

What would Thomas Jefferson (and Madison and Hamilton and Washington) say about this nonsense today?

[TBF]

19. Popular vote should not be considered in those 2 states -

They did not follow the rules and should not be counted, period.

[demo dutch]

23. Pls Read my post # 18

[Dr Fate]

24. I would hope the SDs will factor in the fact that Obama was not on the ballot either...

... as well as how well he polls in those states.

We will agree that there is a lot to consider, if it goes that far.

[demo dutch]

30. I absolutely agree! It got to get fixed and it's got to be fair for both!

and BTW I'm a FL voter and a Hillary supporter

[kentuck]

31. Hillary is already counting them..

Obama knows her game plan. She wants to claim the popular vote with FL and MI. Obama wants to win enough votes to make FL and MI irrelevant in the popular vote. It's not rocket science.

[DrDan]

41. them dems are becoming super-elitists with their

primary schemes

[bigwillq]

43. Popular vote should determine the nominee

maybe we should change that rule for next time.

Delegates are just like the EC, and remember how much of a fit we threw in 2000??

Let the people decide. Not delegates and supers.

[DrDan]

49. absolutely!!!!!!

lets put up a candidate selected by a process as close to the GE as possible.

Anything else puts us at risk of losing in Nov.

[MadBadger]

45. I cant read your subject..letters... .too... big...

[Dawgs]

47. But won't they cancel each other out considering there are more Obama supporters in MI than Hillary?

If the SD's include MI they also have to figure how many would have supported Obama. And to do that, they can look at the latest polls.

If I were a Hillary supporter I would try to ignore MI, and accept that many Obama supporters are okay with you counting Florida.

[rodeodance]

48. I heard that Dean may have interferred in the NC debate issue--people are

looking into this issue.


Dean is biased and needs to step down from his position.

[Dr Fate]

50. Yeah- we need someone less biased than Dean- like Harold Ford.

LOL! Or better yet, trusted everyman and other DLC favorite, Joe Lieberman.

Terry McCulliffe- now THERE is a man w/o bias. LOL!!!

[rodeodance]

54. The Party needs DNC chair who does not shill for one candidate (obama)

[Dr Fate]

57. I agree- which is why Dean never shilled for him. Better than a DLC guy like Ford or McCullife too.

Someone like Ford would be biased for Hillary-and certainly McCulliffe was biased for the DLC and currently works for her.

Dean is fair and just wants DEMS to win- his winning 50 state strategy does not favor or disfavor the Joe Lieberman type, DLC DEMS, so why worry so much?

The DLC has their own gig, we dont need the Harold Ford or anyone else in the Joe Lieberman fan club mucking up the DNC too.

[rodeodance]

59. Dean is incompetant and is purposely slowing down decisions related to FL

and MI--which favors Obama.


In addition--he lets Donna B. do the shrilling.

[cali]

75. it is so disgusting to see hillbots throwing dean under the bus

hard to find anyone who's done more for the dem party than dean. but then who don't repusive little hillbots throw under the bus?

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Dr Fate]

77. They hate Dean because he proved that we can win elections w/o failed DLC strategy.

They would rather keep on losing with their far-right bullshit than admit they were wrong.

[rodeodance]

91. Dean has

lowered himself by refusing to resolve the Fl and MI mess.

[Dr Fate]

95. Sure-Right as always. And Harold Ford would have been much less biased. n/t

n/t

[rodeodance]

99. You are obsessed with Ford. I am no fan of him.

[Dr Fate]

118. Ford was your candidate's choice for DNC chair. But you already knew that.

n/t

[smiley_glad_hands]

105. Whats to resolve? Follow the damn rules already. eom

[rodeodance]

81. His job is to promote the dem party -NOT promote Obama

[Dr Fate]

88. Which is why he never promoted or endorsed Obama.

And its also why he holds the position that either of them are better than McCain- something Hillary herself has disagreed with.

Stop projecting or confusing what the Ford or McCulliffe would do with what Dean is acually doing.

[rodeodance]

90. he has his thugs like Donna B. do his dirty work

[Dr Fate]

94. LOL! I almost wish she were a "thug. " n/t

n/t

[Romulox]

115. The So-called DNC "neutrals" have been campaigning for OBAMA (especially Brazile). nt

[Dr Fate]

76. Save the bashing of Dean for the Lieberman Fan Club over at the DLC.

"Lieberman (I-3rd Party) is better than Lamont (D)"

"We must support wars based on lies or we will lose the 2002 & 2004 elections"

"Obama is the real racist."

"Keep your powder dry"

"Impeacment is off the table- protect Bush at all costs"

"Dean is incompetant"

And on and on and on.

You guys can sell your DLC shit to someone else. Dean aint going nowhere unless he wants to.

[rodeodance]

98. he is NOT getting $$ anymore from lots of folks either.

[smiley_glad_hands]

104. What decision? They broke the rules. lol Whats so hard to understand? eom

[DrDan]

109. uh . . . that would be the 48-state strategy

[Hippo_Tron]

55. Reagan won the popular vote in the 1968 primaries because Nixon wasn't on the ballot in California

Yet somehow he didn't go to the convention screaming that Nixon got the nomination because of undemocratic caucuses. I kinda wish he had, though. Then he might've never been elected.

[dano81818]

60. careful what u ask for it aint lookin good for hillbilly

on the super front either

[ecdab]

61. Maybe you can sell a bridge to the super delegates along with that logic

People can pick what ever measuring stick they want to try and sell the supers with, and as Hillary's measuring sticks get broken - one after the other - she keeps coming up with new, and less meaningful ways to try and make her case.

[book_worm]

62. I just heard this on KO: Give HIll FL and O still ahead, give her MI she is slightly ahead

okay, what about the 40% who voted "uncommitted" in Michigan? Do they count? or to be fair do you give them to Obama since he wasn't on ballot and like Hillary signed a paper saying that the MI results don't count. If you give her her votes and give Obama the uncommitted he is back ahead of the popular vote! and with big wins coming up in NC, Oregon, Montana and South Dakota and possible win in Indiana then he stays ahead of the popular vote. In the end MI and FL will be seated, and their popular votes will be allocated but it still won't be enough for Hillary to win the total popular vote.

[Romulox]

113. Problem: You can't "give" Obama votes he didn't earn; Michigan has apportioned the delegates

And "uncommitted" delegates are just that: free to vote for whom they like.

It's the rules. :rofl:

[sabbat hunter]

68. acttually

there is a rule that says that no state can move their primary up before a certain date or they will lose their delegates. Florida and Michigan violated that rule.

Howard Dean did the right thing. Florida and michigan fucked up.

[Hawkeye-X]

70. !

[progressoid]

71. Whew! Looks like your caps lock button isn't stuck after all.

[WillyT]

73. What Is This Fl And MI You Speak Of...

I heard they didn't exist.

:shrug:

[Romulox]

114. Pssst. You can't disenfranchize us in November. nt

[Zhade]

79. Keep dreaming, Obama will be the nominee when you wake up.

NT!

[ihelpu2see]

80. And 2 more Super Delegates for Obama Today!!! nt

[Forkboy]

83. Was this an issue for you before Hillary needed the votes?

[boston bean]

86. Hell Yes!

[Forkboy]

89. Ok, because I didn't see very many people concerned at the time.

And the one DUer I did see talking about it a lot gets mocked regularly from Hillary supporters.

For the record, it bothered me then and now, and I've said I favor a full re-vote in both states, or at the least splitting the delegates 50/50 as time is running out for a my first option to be realistic.

[mmonk]

87. The primaries in those states are illegitimate.

Remember, Hillary said NO to revotes. The state parties said NO to revotes. I do not believe Dean or Brazile are in charge of the decision making processes of the state parties or their legislatures. This is getting psychotic.

[Yes We Did]

92. Is there a rule anywhere that says popular vote should be considered?

NO? I didn't think so.

You can't change the rules with 2 minutes to go.

[MaineDem]

121. Nope. Not a one. n/t

[rodeodance]

93. ******PETITION TO EXPRESS CONCERN RE: DNC DISASTER*** ADD YOUR COMMENTS

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/dncdisaster/?e

[GarbagemanLB]

96. Didn't Hillary say she didn't like whiners or some shit like that? Toughen up, Hillbots!

[rodeodance]

97. Legit concerns are not whining.

[onenote]

102. some legit some whining

The fact that FL and MI went against party rules and thus provoked the current situation is a legit concern. The states were wrong, but something needs to be worked out.

Claiming that the SDs should consider the popular vote is fine. The SDs can and should consider all sorts of factors. Suggesting that any SD with half a brain will attribute the Michigan vote to HRC but give no credit to Obama for any popular support in Michigan is, if not whining, just stupid.

The SDs are far more sophisticated political animals than 99 percent of DUers and certainly moreso than the OP. They aren't going to blind themselves to the facts - which are that Obama has substantial popular support in Michigan, that disenfranchising those supporters by pretending that they don't exist would be insanely suicidal for the party and the current info -- and one of the benefits of being an SD is that you can base your decision on the state of play at the time you decide -- is that Obama and HRC are basically evenly split in Michigan, which suggests that counting its popular votes is a wash.

[smiley_glad_hands]

106. LOL You guys are desperate. eom

[grytpype]

100. Obama wasn't on the ballot in MI, numbnuts!

The quicker the supers put Hillary to sleep, the better!

[cascadiance]

103. If we validate Michigan's results, our election is no better than Saddam's "election" in 2002!

when he ran unopposed as well and tried to claim he had "the support of the Iraqi people"!

[Romulox]

116. Read a newspaper. Hillary didn't run unopposed in Michigan. nt

[cascadiance]

101. CORRECTION! Florida officials fucked up beyond belief! Get your facts straight!

Dean and Brazille can't help it if Florida or Michigan officials don't follow the rules!

Florida and Michigan officials that deviated from the rules are the ones that should pay for it with their jobs!

If every state went on their own like Florida and Michigan did, this country would be in a mess now and democracy (little d) would be dead!

[GoesTo11]

112. SD's can measure results in any way they deem appropriate

For example, who has more years of experience.

What the heck. Why even have primaries.

If we popular vote to decide, via super-delegates using a simple majority of unweighted votes as their criterion, then we should have a national primary election - and no super-delegates. We did not hold such a primary, since we used caucuses in some states and primaries in others, not to mention the Florida and Michigan trainwreck.

SD's can apply judgment, but had better be pretty deferential to the results of the primaries and caucuses - according to the rules under which they were run - so that we don't have a situation where those don't even matter.

If indeed SD's are trying to guage the will of the voters, that's a pretty complex judgment. To do it right, they would have to implicitly weigh caucuses one way, primaries another, try to guage how caucus votes might not reflect broad opinion, or how they reflect stronger levels of commitment, try to guess how MI and FL would have voted under normal circumstances, and then, I suppose, add it all up.

If they want to guess who is more likely to win in the fall, that's going to fall 50-50 barring some absolute disaster - either candidate can tell the story of why they are most likely to win. This is an important point. Unless there is some very obvious reason -- for example like when the LaRouche party snuck people into state level elections a few years back, or if Gary Hart's affair had been caught at the end of the primaries, or health problems, or wide stances, etc. -- SD's have no better an idea of who's going to win than anyone. And we just don't have a consensus - if we did, the voting wouldn't be so close.

All quite a mess when you have SDs deciding this way. And they also have all sorts of less pure motives, like paying off favors, jockeying for position, caving to threats.

Given this imperfect process, I really want them doing as little as possible to affect the outcome.

[MaineDem]

117. "we SD's"

Are you a superdelegate?

[jackson_dem]

120. FL had 34% turnout. Idaho had 1.9, Wyoming 2.5%. Which is the sham?

I agree. Supers should take into account the popular will. That means 100% of the population, not 90%. One person, one vote. Why should one vote in Philadelphia be worth 3x more than one in rural PA? 13k votes in Idaho should be worth more than 230k in Ohio? They should not be slaves to a rigged pledged delegate scheme, even if Florida and Michigan's delegates are seated.

[wileedog]

126. Because that is the way the system was designed

and that is what was announced and agreed to when the race started.

If popular vote starts becoming a legitimate benchmark then states like Idaho, WY, etc will never see another candidate live or another dollar spent in their states ever again. No candidate will ever leave CA, NY, PA, FL, OH, etc.

[gsaguyCLW54]

122. This is a very original and logical argument. I like it.

[pdx_prog]

123. FL and MI was NOT to be counted....

Everyone knew this going in to the election. Not counted means just exactly that "NOT COUNTED"....

If you don't play by the rules you don't get to play AT ALL....

[backscatter712]

127. That's alright.

After North Carolina and Oregon, Obama will be winning even if Soviet Michigan was counted.

Not that an election where Hillary was the only candidate on the ballot, where the voters were told their delegates won't be seated, should even be considered close to fair.

[Romulox]

128. Soviet Michigan? LOL. You can't make this sort of silliness up! nt

[backscatter712]

131. The analogy's apt.

Both in Michigan and in the old Soviet Union, they held "elections" where there was only one candidate on the ballot.

I'd support Michigan being seated if they were to hold a real, fair election, but they're not willing to make it happen.

[Romulox]

139. That's factually incorrect (not to mention comically hyperbolic). nt

[backscatter712]

140. Oh, yeah, Gravel was on the ticket too!

Gravel and Hillary. What a contest! :sarcasm:

Hillary was the only viable candidate on the ballot. Explain to me why I shouldn't call this a Soviet election?

Now explain to me a contest where Obama wasn't on the ballot, and both Hillary and Obama agreed not to campaign there, should be considered valid and result in seated delegates?

[boston bean]

129. wait for WV, Kentucky, Guam and PR. Let's see then!

[Jed Dilligan]

134. KNOW WHAT?

POSTING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T MAKE FALSEHOODS TRUER.

[ihelpu2see]

137. no rule about state size either. and if you weight the Caucus states Sen. Obama would be

crushing Hillary in the popular vote... so you are right the popular vote and the "type of state" should not matter.